The Trump Dump!

Double wank and shit chips
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Re: The Trump Dump!

#1561

Post by Kirbmarc » Fri Nov 02, 2018 2:22 pm

Brive1987 wrote: The objective fact is that only one board member has been suspended for an unacceptable approach to this debate.

Consider that before you ‘white knight” the ‘pit.
When it was done to the Atheism Plus forum, or to FTB, it was called "trolling FTW".

I accept that people are more testy when it's done on their turf, and I accepted the punishment for having broken a Pit rule about sockpuppets.

Still the fact that you and others fell for a pastiche of the articles and arguments of various alt-righters/white nationalists, and nodded along with it, should give you some pause. Just like the fact that the Hordelettes dunked on a selection of quotes of Peezus should have given them some pause.

I hoped that you and other "alt-lite" people would have reacted to "ThatsHateFacts" by saying that he didn't represent you, that THF's clear racial focus wasn't what you had in mind, etc. Some people clearly rejected the "hatefacts", and not just the usual "libtard" suspects, but also people who occasionally showed more sympathy to the "alt-lite" camp, like Matt Cavanaugh.

You, however, were positively giddy about THF's "facts and graphs", and even after the gig was up insisted that THF had some good arguments.

Oh well. Make of that what you will.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#1562

Post by Kirbmarc » Fri Nov 02, 2018 2:29 pm

Brive1987 wrote: :lol: :lol:
As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1
You have gone toe to toe with SJWs
The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which.
Just a reminder that "unconventional" doesn't excuse flouting ethics.

Trump is not Hitler. Hitler had a plan and was deadly serious about it. Trump is pandering to his base and is happy to hire illegal immigrants while he posts videos about illegal immigrants being an existential threat to the United States.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#1563

Post by CaptainFluffyBunny » Fri Nov 02, 2018 2:42 pm

Kirbmarc wrote:
Brive1987 wrote: The objective fact is that only one board member has been suspended for an unacceptable approach to this debate.

Consider that before you ‘white knight” the ‘pit.
When it was done to the Atheism Plus forum, or to FTB, it was called "trolling FTW".

I accept that people are more testy when it's done on their turf, and I accepted the punishment for having broken a Pit rule about sockpuppets.

Still the fact that you and others fell for a pastiche of the articles and arguments of various alt-righters/white nationalists, and nodded along with it, should give you some pause. Just like the fact that the Hordelettes dunked on a selection of quotes of Peezus should have given them some pause.

I hoped that you and other "alt-lite" people would have reacted to "ThatsHateFacts" by saying that he didn't represent you, that THF's clear racial focus wasn't what you had in mind, etc. Some people clearly rejected the "hatefacts", and not just the usual "libtard" suspects, but also people who occasionally showed more sympathy to the "alt-lite" camp, like Matt Cavanaugh.

You, however, were positively giddy about THF's "facts and graphs", and even after the gig was up insisted that THF had some good arguments.

Oh well. Make of that what you will.
I'd forgotten about Brive's BFF. While I certainly don't condone socking on the pit, I do have to admit it illustrated some people's positions nicely. I have to wonder what's Brive's stance on jews. Most alt-lite seem to think they're nearly human, But not course alt is a spectrum.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#1564

Post by CaptainFluffyBunny » Fri Nov 02, 2018 2:44 pm

Should have been " ...but of course alt is a spectrum."

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#1565

Post by CaptainFluffyBunny » Fri Nov 02, 2018 2:45 pm

As long as we're on the topic...

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#1566

Post by Kirbmarc » Fri Nov 02, 2018 2:53 pm

CaptainFluffyBunny wrote: I'd forgotten about Brive's BFF. While I certainly don't condone socking on the pit, I do have to admit it illustrated some people's positions nicely. I have to wonder what's Brive's stance on jews. Most alt-lite seem to think they're nearly human, But not course alt is a spectrum.
Now, now, I'm pretty sure that Brive has nothing against the Jews.

It's the "libtards" who deserve a genocide of cretins. :bjarte:

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#1567

Post by CaptainFluffyBunny » Fri Nov 02, 2018 3:00 pm

Kirbmarc wrote:
CaptainFluffyBunny wrote: I'd forgotten about Brive's BFF. While I certainly don't condone socking on the pit, I do have to admit it illustrated some people's positions nicely. I have to wonder what's Brive's stance on jews. Most alt-lite seem to think they're nearly human, But not course alt is a spectrum.
Now, now, I'm pretty sure that Brive has nothing against the Jews.

It's the "libtards" who deserve a genocide of cretins. :bjarte:
The company you keep and all that. Would jews be welcomed into Brive's ethnostate Australia? Can a jew be culturally Australian? Serious questions.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#1568

Post by Brive1987 » Fri Nov 02, 2018 3:49 pm

Don’t get your knickers in a knot. You did the crime you did your time. Fair enough. Point is directed at CFB as a hose down of his POV - which is verging on sanctimony.

........

If you do want the spotlight. PSA. You troll your foes.

And if you review the record you will notice that I didn’t engage with HateFacts other than to note the inability of the liberal brains-trust to dispute his argument. And his use of statistics and facts to underwrite his pitch rather than feelz. The conclusions,as they played out, got more and more bizarre.

Seriously. Go back and count my engagements.

Ie I walked around your tripwire.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#1569

Post by Brive1987 » Fri Nov 02, 2018 3:50 pm

CaptainFluffyBunny wrote:
Kirbmarc wrote:
CaptainFluffyBunny wrote: I'd forgotten about Brive's BFF. While I certainly don't condone socking on the pit, I do have to admit it illustrated some people's positions nicely. I have to wonder what's Brive's stance on jews. Most alt-lite seem to think they're nearly human, But not course alt is a spectrum.
Now, now, I'm pretty sure that Brive has nothing against the Jews.

It's the "libtards" who deserve a genocide of cretins. :bjarte:
The company you keep and all that. Would jews be welcomed into Brive's ethnostate Australia? Can a jew be culturally Australian? Serious questions.
Monash was a Jew. You are moving from sanctimonious to pathetic.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#1570

Post by Steersman » Fri Nov 02, 2018 4:28 pm

free thoughtpolice wrote: From Steersman's post:
CaptainFluffyBunny wrote: ↑
.... How you get deriding migrant workers while hiring illegals not to be hypocrisy is best understood by your court-mandated therapist.
You keep using that word (hypocrisy) ...
Did you read this link?
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/27/nyre ... ement.html
No I hadn't, but it certainly suggests that Trump is hardly perfect. But I've NEVER said he was, much less that he walks on water; ALL I've said, repeatedly, was that, at least at the time of the election, he was clearly the lesser of two evils, and that by a long shot. And that it will be moot whether the "cure" turns out to be worse than the "disease" - jury still out as far as I'm concerned, but the evidence so far is in the negative.

But all of that is largely irrelevant to my point. Which was that Fluffy's link to a Hill article didn't at all prove what he clearly thought it did:
CaptainFluffyBunny wrote: https://thehill.com/homenews/administra ... gn-workers
There you go. Trump hypocrisy in a foreign-flavored nutshell. Enjoy.
ALL that proves is that, presumably, the manager of Trump's hotel was following standard operating procedure. And that Fluffy is clearly suffering from a sad case of TDS.

Now IF Trump had been calling for American employers to be employing American workers and to be eschewing illegals - and absent any mea culpa for falling down in that department himself - THEN Fluffy probably would have had cause to accuse Trump of hypocrisy. But Trump hasn't been doing that - at least that I know of - and Fluffy cluelessly and most illogically seems to think that that article is not just the smoking gun, but proof positive - the coup de grâce - that Trump has been caught flagrante delictio in the crime of hypocrisy.

Clearly, logic and reason are not Fluffy's strong suits; see TDS.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#1571

Post by CaptainFluffyBunny » Fri Nov 02, 2018 4:59 pm

Brive1987 wrote:
CaptainFluffyBunny wrote:
Kirbmarc wrote:
CaptainFluffyBunny wrote: I'd forgotten about Brive's BFF. While I certainly don't condone socking on the pit, I do have to admit it illustrated some people's positions nicely. I have to wonder what's Brive's stance on jews. Most alt-lite seem to think they're nearly human, But not course alt is a spectrum.
Now, now, I'm pretty sure that Brive has nothing against the Jews.

It's the "libtards" who deserve a genocide of cretins. :bjarte:
The company you keep and all that. Would jews be welcomed into Brive's ethnostate Australia? Can a jew be culturally Australian? Serious questions.
Monash was a Jew. You are moving from sanctimonious to pathetic.
You assumed I knew what Monash was? Seriously, I can't be held accountable for not knowing every public figure in every minor country. You could have just said, "of course Jews would be welcomed, look at Monash The Destroyer sitting atop his heap of enemy skulls!" That would have been less sanctimonious of you for certain. It's an honest question, Brive. A lot of the alt-right and alt-lite are not so keen on Jews, as I'm certain you're aware.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#1572

Post by free thoughtpolice » Fri Nov 02, 2018 5:01 pm

Of course Trump knew about the policy of hiring illegals an then shorting them like he did with legit contractors. Maybe Trump was a victim then like he is now with the evil MSM?
It sounds you think he is above the law.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#1573

Post by Brive1987 » Fri Nov 02, 2018 7:15 pm

CaptainFluffyBunny wrote:
Brive1987 wrote:
CaptainFluffyBunny wrote:
Kirbmarc wrote:
CaptainFluffyBunny wrote: I'd forgotten about Brive's BFF. While I certainly don't condone socking on the pit, I do have to admit it illustrated some people's positions nicely. I have to wonder what's Brive's stance on jews. Most alt-lite seem to think they're nearly human, But not course alt is a spectrum.
Now, now, I'm pretty sure that Brive has nothing against the Jews.

It's the "libtards" who deserve a genocide of cretins. :bjarte:
The company you keep and all that. Would jews be welcomed into Brive's ethnostate Australia? Can a jew be culturally Australian? Serious questions.
Monash was a Jew. You are moving from sanctimonious to pathetic.
You assumed I knew what Monash was? Seriously, I can't be held accountable for not knowing every public figure in every minor country. You could have just said, "of course Jews would be welcomed, look at Monash The Destroyer sitting atop his heap of enemy skulls!" That would have been less sanctimonious of you for certain. It's an honest question, Brive. A lot of the alt-right and alt-lite are not so keen on Jews, as I'm certain you're aware.
You were being a dick and you deserved to have shit flung at you. So all in all you got off lightly.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#1574

Post by CaptainFluffyBunny » Fri Nov 02, 2018 9:37 pm

Brive1987 wrote:
CaptainFluffyBunny wrote:
Brive1987 wrote:
CaptainFluffyBunny wrote:
Kirbmarc wrote:
CaptainFluffyBunny wrote: I'd forgotten about Brive's BFF. While I certainly don't condone socking on the pit, I do have to admit it illustrated some people's positions nicely. I have to wonder what's Brive's stance on jews. Most alt-lite seem to think they're nearly human, But not course alt is a spectrum.
Now, now, I'm pretty sure that Brive has nothing against the Jews.

It's the "libtards" who deserve a genocide of cretins. :bjarte:
The company you keep and all that. Would jews be welcomed into Brive's ethnostate Australia? Can a jew be culturally Australian? Serious questions.
Monash was a Jew. You are moving from sanctimonious to pathetic.
You assumed I knew what Monash was? Seriously, I can't be held accountable for not knowing every public figure in every minor country. You could have just said, "of course Jews would be welcomed, look at Monash The Destroyer sitting atop his heap of enemy skulls!" That would have been less sanctimonious of you for certain. It's an honest question, Brive. A lot of the alt-right and alt-lite are not so keen on Jews, as I'm certain you're aware.
You were being a dick and you deserved to have shit flung at you. So all in all you got off lightly.
Oh, and you bitch about me in the main thread. Keep it up, you're doing great.

But seriously, I did not know who Monash was. You might be all chuffed about Aussie things, but outside of the Antipodes, no one much cares. Your entire economy is dwarfed by the state of California. So....mellow out. The alt-etc does have a demonstrable problematic relationship with Jews, and it was a perfectly reasonable question. Didn't Pettibone do a video about their evils? Goodness, such animosity.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#1575

Post by Brive1987 » Fri Nov 02, 2018 10:46 pm

Call me a rightard all you want. FTP has already mixed and matched Brive with Breivik. In the context that’s banter. Your passive aggressive charges of antisemitism come from a simpler nastier place.

I didn’t expect you to know much about the latter stages of WW1. My comment served as a retort and reminded you that you know far less than your assertions suggest.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#1576

Post by CaptainFluffyBunny » Fri Nov 02, 2018 11:14 pm

Brive1987 wrote: Call me a rightard all you want. FTP has already mixed and matched Brive with Breivik. In the context that’s banter. Your passive aggressive charges of antisemitism come from a simpler nastier place.

I didn’t expect you to know much about the latter stages of WW1. My comment served as a retort and reminded you that you know far less than your assertions suggest.
I never called you a rightard, Brive. You seem a bit angry. And there was no passive-aggressive charges, just a simple question. Goodness. Or do you deny that a good deal of alt-whatever is antisemitic? And that some of the braid bimbos have been antisemitic?

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#1577

Post by Brive1987 » Fri Nov 02, 2018 11:26 pm

I’ve been clearer than necessary where I stand. I’ve even graphed it. Even Kirb gets it.

I don’t buy your “who me?”

Btw I said call me rightard if you want .

.......

In other news, I see Trump has been Goldy’ed by CNN.


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Re: The Trump Dump!

#1578

Post by CaptainFluffyBunny » Fri Nov 02, 2018 11:44 pm

Brive, you seem unnecessarily hostile. Now, you say you've made your position clear, but the reality is that it really isn't. You post things by people that are decidedly hostile to atheists and Jews. So mellow out.

So, your vision of Australia- what does the next generation say? Are your kids aligned with your ethnically- white Australian state? What do you think the majority of young Australians would say to your vision?

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#1579

Post by CaptainFluffyBunny » Sat Nov 03, 2018 12:07 am

Oh, Crap, this is the Trump thread! Pardon me for the ethnostate stuff, and have a lol.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#1580

Post by CaptainFluffyBunny » Sat Nov 03, 2018 12:13 am

Less lol

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#1581

Post by Steersman » Sat Nov 03, 2018 11:28 am

free thoughtpolice wrote: Of course Trump knew about the policy of hiring illegals an then shorting them like he did with legit contractors. Maybe Trump was a victim then like he is now with the evil MSM?
It sounds you think he is above the law.
If that's what you're hearing then methinks you need to clean out your ears. And respond less to a feeling of butthurt - apparently - than to the facts and argument on the table.

And that is NOT whether Trump was rather clueless if not sleazy or criminal in "hiring illegals and shorting them and sending good money after bad in defending the indefensible" - which I'll readily concede is probably the case. It's that Fluffy's use of that article did not all justify - IN ITSELF - his claim that it was a manifest case of Trump's hypocrisy. And that, thereby, Fluffy was just giving some evidence of suffering from a serious case of Trump Derangement Syndrome [TDS] - get well soon Fluffy ...

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#1582

Post by free thoughtpolice » Sat Nov 03, 2018 11:44 am

Steersman wrote:
free thoughtpolice wrote: Of course Trump knew about the policy of hiring illegals an then shorting them like he did with legit contractors. Maybe Trump was a victim then like he is now with the evil MSM?
It sounds you think he is above the law.
If that's what you're hearing then methinks you need to clean out your ears. And respond less to a feeling of butthurt - apparently - than to the facts and argument on the table.

And that is NOT whether Trump was rather clueless if not sleazy or criminal in "hiring illegals and shorting them and sending good money after bad in defending the indefensible" - which I'll readily concede is probably the case. It's that Fluffy's use of that article did not all justify - IN ITSELF - his claim that it was a manifest case of Trump's hypocrisy. And that, thereby, Fluffy was just giving some evidence of suffering from a serious case of Trump Derangement Syndrome [TDS] - get well soon Fluffy ...
I'm not sure what you are saying here. You concede that Trump broke the law by hiring illegal workers. He campaigns against illegal migrants that come to the US to work. How is that not hypocrisy?

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#1583

Post by CaptainFluffyBunny » Sat Nov 03, 2018 11:53 am


Hee hee. It's okay when he does it, though.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#1584

Post by Steersman » Sat Nov 03, 2018 12:32 pm

free thoughtpolice wrote:
Steersman wrote:
free thoughtpolice wrote: Of course Trump knew about the policy of hiring illegals an then shorting them like he did with legit contractors. Maybe Trump was a victim then like he is now with the evil MSM?
It sounds you think he is above the law.
If that's what you're hearing then methinks you need to clean out your ears. And respond less to a feeling of butthurt - apparently - than to the facts and argument on the table.

And that is NOT whether Trump was rather clueless if not sleazy or criminal in "hiring illegals and shorting them and sending good money after bad in defending the indefensible" - which I'll readily concede is probably the case. It's that Fluffy's use of that article did not all justify - IN ITSELF - his claim that it was a manifest case of Trump's hypocrisy. And that, thereby, Fluffy was just giving some evidence of suffering from a serious case of Trump Derangement Syndrome [TDS] - get well soon Fluffy ...
I'm not sure what you are saying here. You concede that Trump broke the law by hiring illegal workers. He campaigns against illegal migrants that come to the US to work. How is that not hypocrisy?
NOT. THE. FUCKING. POINT. English a second language for you? Do try reading - and thinking about what you've read; do try putting brain in gear before putting mouth in motion.

The point is that Fluffy was insisting that the article about Trump's hotel - NOT Trump himself - hiring foreign workers was IN ITSELF some sort of proof that Trump was a hypocrite.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#1585

Post by free thoughtpolice » Sat Nov 03, 2018 12:57 pm

NOT. THE. FUCKING. POINT. English a second language for you? Do try reading - and thinking about what you've read; do try putting brain in gear before putting mouth in motion.
Don't get snotty. It's not called for.
The point I was trying to make (apparently unsuccessfully) was that CFB also supplied a link that showed that Trump had hired illegals for his building in New York and is now attacking illegal migrants when he actually previously had even brought them over to break the law. I thought you conceded that point. Isn't that hypocritical?
Or are you saying that because he owned the company and didn't personally do the hiring he somehow wasn't responsible for this happening?
I wasn't even arguing the Mar a Lago case. I was talking about this case:
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/27/nyre ... ement.html

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#1586

Post by CaptainFluffyBunny » Sat Nov 03, 2018 1:02 pm

Steersman wrote:
free thoughtpolice wrote:
Steersman wrote:
free thoughtpolice wrote: Of course Trump knew about the policy of hiring illegals an then shorting them like he did with legit contractors. Maybe Trump was a victim then like he is now with the evil MSM?
It sounds you think he is above the law.
If that's what you're hearing then methinks you need to clean out your ears. And respond less to a feeling of butthurt - apparently - than to the facts and argument on the table.

And that is NOT whether Trump was rather clueless if not sleazy or criminal in "hiring illegals and shorting them and sending good money after bad in defending the indefensible" - which I'll readily concede is probably the case. It's that Fluffy's use of that article did not all justify - IN ITSELF - his claim that it was a manifest case of Trump's hypocrisy. And that, thereby, Fluffy was just giving some evidence of suffering from a serious case of Trump Derangement Syndrome [TDS] - get well soon Fluffy ...
I'm not sure what you are saying here. You concede that Trump broke the law by hiring illegal workers. He campaigns against illegal migrants that come to the US to work. How is that not hypocrisy?
NOT. THE. FUCKING. POINT. English a second language for you? Do try reading - and thinking about what you've read; do try putting brain in gear before putting mouth in motion.

The point is that Fluffy was insisting that the article about Trump's hotel - NOT Trump himself - hiring foreign workers was IN ITSELF some sort of proof that Trump was a hypocrite.
OMFG, Steers, you magnificent lolcow. Trump has often and knowingly hired illegal workers. Not amongst his many sins is not being aware of what is going on in his organizations. That was but a tiny taste, and there were other articles posted. But do ignore that and press on with your point. Evidence and logic have never convinced you yet, and to be honest, I'd be disappointed if you changed now.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#1587

Post by CaptainFluffyBunny » Sat Nov 03, 2018 1:03 pm


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Re: The Trump Dump!

#1588

Post by CaptainFluffyBunny » Sat Nov 03, 2018 1:12 pm

free thoughtpolice wrote:
NOT. THE. FUCKING. POINT. English a second language for you? Do try reading - and thinking about what you've read; do try putting brain in gear before putting mouth in motion.
Don't get snotty. It's not called for.
The point I was trying to make (apparently unsuccessfully) was that CFB also supplied a link that showed that Trump had hired illegals for his building in New York and is now attacking illegal migrants when he actually previously had even brought them over to break the law. I thought you conceded that point. Isn't that hypocritical?
Or are you saying that because he owned the company and didn't personally do the hiring he somehow wasn't responsible for this happening?
I wasn't even arguing the Mar a Lago case. I was talking about this case:
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/27/nyre ... ement.html
Poor Steersman thinks he understands language, but talking to him is like running a voice recognition app that continually misinterprets simple instructions repeatedly.
https://www.mirror.co.uk/tech/worst-ale ... n-11768630

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#1589

Post by Steersman » Sat Nov 03, 2018 1:14 pm

free thoughtpolice wrote:
NOT. THE. FUCKING. POINT. English a second language for you? Do try reading - and thinking about what you've read; do try putting brain in gear before putting mouth in motion.
Don't get snotty. It's not called for.
It is if you keep ignoring what I've said several times. Which is related ONLY to this ORIGINAL post of Fluffy's that I've quoted SEVERAL times (if I'm not mistaken):
CaptainFluffyBunny wrote: https://thehill.com/homenews/administra ... gn-workers
There you go. Trump hypocrisy in a foreign-flavored nutshell. Enjoy.
Pray tell, how is THAT proof of Trump's hypocrisy? Do try addressing MY argument that Fluffy insisting or suggesting that that proved Trump's hypocrisy is an egregiously and dementedly bogus and specious claim.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#1590

Post by free thoughtpolice » Sat Nov 03, 2018 1:26 pm

My point is that regardless of whether the link you outlined proves Trump to be a hypocrite about illegal workers, the link that I posted (a different one) proves that he is.
I wasn't interested in arguing about your link and still aren't.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#1591

Post by CaptainFluffyBunny » Sat Nov 03, 2018 1:37 pm

Steersman wrote:
free thoughtpolice wrote:
NOT. THE. FUCKING. POINT. English a second language for you? Do try reading - and thinking about what you've read; do try putting brain in gear before putting mouth in motion.
Don't get snotty. It's not called for.
It is if you keep ignoring what I've said several times. Which is related ONLY to this ORIGINAL post of Fluffy's that I've quoted SEVERAL times (if I'm not mistaken):
CaptainFluffyBunny wrote: https://thehill.com/homenews/administra ... gn-workers
There you go. Trump hypocrisy in a foreign-flavored nutshell. Enjoy.
Pray tell, how is THAT proof of Trump's hypocrisy? Do try addressing MY argument that Fluffy insisting or suggesting that that proved Trump's hypocrisy is an egregiously and dementedly bogus and specious claim.
A nice aphorism for you since you like them so much-"not seeing the forest for the trees." Trump disparages immigrants, especially from "shithole " countries, but hires them because they work for less. Still don't see it? I knew you wouldn't. You're blinded by limitations you're completely unaware of, much less understand.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#1592

Post by Steersman » Sat Nov 03, 2018 1:56 pm

free thoughtpolice wrote: My point is that regardless of whether the link you outlined proves Trump to be a hypocrite about illegal workers, the link that I posted (a different one) proves that he is.
I wasn't interested in arguing about your link and still aren't.
Fine. But if you weren't interested in it then you shouldn't be quoting it - as you did when you threw out the NYTimes article. Moving the goalposts at best.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#1593

Post by Steersman » Sat Nov 03, 2018 2:03 pm

CaptainFluffyBunny wrote: <snip>
A nice aphorism for you since you like them so much-"not seeing the forest for the trees." Trump disparages immigrants, especially from "shithole " countries, but hires them because they work for less. Still don't see it? I knew you wouldn't. You're blinded by limitations you're completely unaware of, much less understand.
You're a fucken idiot and a dishonest one to boot. Thought there was some hope for you, given your earlier "No, actually I do blame elements of the left for Trump."

But none of that "disparages immigrants" crap is at ALL relevant to my criticsm - which you refuse to address - of your original and entirely bogus claim that Trump's hotel LEGALLY hiring foreign workers was somehow, in your fevered imagination (TDS), proof of Trump's hypocrisy.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#1594

Post by CaptainFluffyBunny » Sat Nov 03, 2018 3:17 pm

Steersman wrote:
CaptainFluffyBunny wrote: <snip>
A nice aphorism for you since you like them so much-"not seeing the forest for the trees." Trump disparages immigrants, especially from "shithole " countries, but hires them because they work for less. Still don't see it? I knew you wouldn't. You're blinded by limitations you're completely unaware of, much less understand.
You're a fucken idiot and a dishonest one to boot. Thought there was some hope for you, given your earlier "No, actually I do blame elements of the left for Trump."

But none of that "disparages immigrants" crap is at ALL relevant to my criticsm - which you refuse to address - of your original and entirely bogus claim that Trump's hotel LEGALLY hiring foreign workers was somehow, in your fevered imagination (TDS), proof of Trump's hypocrisy.
That is actually a limit on your understanding, not mine. And I suggest you limit the insults, especially considering your status as a long-running joke.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#1595

Post by CaptainFluffyBunny » Sat Nov 03, 2018 5:37 pm

This might be enlightening, Steersman.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.washin ... story.html

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#1596

Post by Steersman » Sat Nov 03, 2018 8:39 pm

CaptainFluffyBunny wrote:
Steersman wrote:
CaptainFluffyBunny wrote: <snip>
A nice aphorism for you since you like them so much-"not seeing the forest for the trees." Trump disparages immigrants, especially from "shithole " countries, but hires them because they work for less. Still don't see it? I knew you wouldn't. You're blinded by limitations you're completely unaware of, much less understand.
You're a fucken idiot and a dishonest one to boot. Thought there was some hope for you, given your earlier "No, actually I do blame elements of the left for Trump."

But none of that "disparages immigrants" crap is at ALL relevant to my criticsm - which you refuse to address - of your original and entirely bogus claim that Trump's hotel LEGALLY hiring foreign workers was somehow, in your fevered imagination (TDS), proof of Trump's hypocrisy.
That is actually a limit on your understanding, not mine.
LoL. In your opinion. Which you don't seem willing or able to justify - not even a "Courtier's Fallacy" of insisting that I read some screed that will show me the light, just an ipse dixit, just an imperious "gawd exists!!". You might reflect on this, although your ability to do that seems limited:

And_then_a_miracle_happens_cartoon.jpg
(44.2 KiB) Downloaded 140 times

Maybe you can lay out, in precisely defined steps, exactly how you got, using ONLY that hotel article, to a justification for a charge of hypocrisy? Rather doubt it.
CaptainFluffyBunny wrote: And I suggest you limit the insults, especially considering your status as a long-running joke.
After you Alphonse, after you cease & desist with the "lolcow" and "voice recognition app" and "this Steersman technique" and "blinded by limitations" crap, and actually try addressing my argument.

And then maybe I'll address the Washington Post "shithole" article.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#1597

Post by CaptainFluffyBunny » Sat Nov 03, 2018 10:36 pm

Steersman, your argument was invalid and addressed from the start. Try again.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#1598

Post by Kirbmarc » Sat Nov 03, 2018 11:14 pm

CaptainFluffyBunny wrote:
Hee hee. It's okay when he does it, though.
What a snowflake. There are Tumblrinas who are less self-obsessed.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#1599

Post by Steersman » Sun Nov 04, 2018 12:15 am

CaptainFluffyBunny wrote: Steersman, your argument was invalid and addressed from the start. Try again.
LoL What a hoot. Just repeating "Jesus is Lord" or "Allah is the Grand High Poohbah of the Universe" - which is more or less what you're doing - doesn't actually PROVE that those claims are true.

Don't think you have a clue what my argument actually is, or the intellectual honesty to actually look at it and provide an honest attempt at a rebuttal.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#1600

Post by Steersman » Sun Nov 04, 2018 12:22 am

Kirbmarc wrote:
CaptainFluffyBunny wrote: https: ... mobile.twitter.com/mkraju/status/1058433875813261313
Hee hee. It's okay when he does it, though.
What a snowflake. There are Tumblrinas who are less self-obsessed.
The Trump brand is definitely looking a bit "tattered" these days. Though still think he's the lesser of two weevils, and by a long shot:




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Re: The Trump Dump!

#1601

Post by d4m10n » Mon Nov 05, 2018 8:26 am

Guest_514f8ceb wrote: The rightardation of Brive (and others...) was the natural conclusion of the pyt since any community that focuses so intensely on any particular culture war issue like that (SJWs in muh) will end up so if it doesn't already attract weirdos (it did, though I'm glad Steersman is still out of jail). But that's fine, opinions are like assholes and Brive's asshole must be particularly damaged by now considering his proclivities (Anglo) and in general the forum provides humor to the rest of us in the form of a collective that's become about as demented as FTB on average.
Brive1987 wrote:
Wed Oct 31, 2018 7:11 pm

Hey guest. Let me explain a few truths to you ....

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:lol: :lol: :lol:

Guest has a point though. Building pit membership around "Intersectional social justice keyboard warriors in muh atheism!" has tended to attract folks who oppose left-liberalism in general, rather than focusing tightly on the excesses of callout culture. Sam Harris and some of his fellow travelers in the IDW have been noticing a similar pattern.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#1602

Post by d4m10n » Mon Nov 05, 2018 9:02 am

And now a word from Richard Dawkins . . .


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Re: The Trump Dump!

#1603

Post by Kirbmarc » Mon Nov 05, 2018 9:42 am

d4m10n wrote: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Guest has a point though. Building pit membership around "Intersectional social justice keyboard warriors in muh atheism!" has tended to attract folks who oppose left-liberalism in general, rather than focusing tightly on the excesses of callout culture. Sam Harris and some of his fellow travelers in the IDW have been noticing a similar pattern.
It's the natural consequence of tribalism. When you criticize one tribe you attract members of the other tribe. This often happens with religion, for example. I've criticized islam and have been retweeted by conservative Christians, even though the reasons why I criticized islam applied to conservative Christianity, albeit to a different level due to the secularization of the liberal democratic "west".

When I criticize the crimes of communism I get lots of right-wing people to like me, even people who support regimes who abolished freedoms. When I point out that Nazism was a far-right movement inspired at least in part by lots of conservative/reactionary thinkers, and calling it "socialism" is stupidly inaccurate, lots of left wing people like me, even people who support Stalinism.

In the current US system, which is bi-partisan by nature, any criticism of the Democratic Party tends to attract Republicans, and vice versa.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#1604

Post by Kirbmarc » Mon Nov 05, 2018 10:26 am

d4m10n wrote: And now a word from Richard Dawkins . . .

The evidence for Trump being a liar on a level beyond that of his fellow politicians, Democrats and Republicans, is clearly shown by this infographic:

http://i.imgur.com/gpQwRyI.jpg

But just in case some people forgot about the many instances when Trump was a science denier, here there are a few tweets and videos.

Trump and anti-vaxxing:

https://www.historyofvaccines.org/sites ... 8%20AM.png

http://www.gethealthyadvice.com/wp-cont ... tism-1.jpg

Trump and global warming denialism:


Trump and his very, very dumb ideas about CFCs (he also apparently seems to think that his rooms are airtight):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6l7TUJ6iSU

At least the case of global warming, Trump's science denial isn't just performative Twitter drama. He pulled out of the 2015 Paris Agreement, shilled heavily for the coal industry, and has planned to expand offshore drilling.

Trump's scientific ignorance and support for anti-scientific conspiracy thinking likely played a role in his choices in matters of environmental policies, like nominating an incompetent, ethically challenged politician to led the EPA:
In his campaigns for Oklahoma Attorney General, Pruitt received major corporate and employee campaign contributions from the fossil fuel industry, taking in at least $215,574 between 2010 and 2014 even though he ran unopposed in the latter year. As Oklahoma's Attorney General, Pruitt sued the Environmental Protection Agency at least 14 times regarding the agency's actions. In 2012, Pruitt was elected as chairman of the Republican Attorneys General Association and re-elected for a second term in February 2013.

Pruitt rejects the scientific consensus that human-caused carbon dioxide emissions are a primary contributor to climate change.[3]

By July 2018, Pruitt was under at least 14 separate federal investigations by the Government Accountability Office, the EPA inspector general, the White House Office of Management and Budget, the U.S. Office of Special Counsel, and two House committees over his spending habits, conflicts of interests, extreme secrecy, and management practices. Pruitt made frequent use of first-class travel as well as frequent charter and military flights. As EPA administrator, Pruitt leased a condo in Washington D.C. at a deeply discounted rate from a lobbyist whose clients were regulated by the EPA. Pruitt further caused ethics concerns by circumventing the White House and using a narrow provision of the Safe Drinking Water Act to autonomously give raises to his two closest aides of approximately $28,000 and $57,000 each, which were substantially higher than salaries paid to those in similar positions in the Obama administration, and which allowed both to avoid signing conflicts of interest pledges. By June 2018, amid a steady succession of revelations of misconduct, a growing chorus of conservatives had begun suggesting that Pruitt should resign.
Trump's appointed head of the EPA has also supported cuts to regulation of hazardous chemicals:
In March 2017, EPA Administrator Scott Pruitt denied that he had met with Dow Chemicals CEO Andrew Liveris before making a decision to deny a petition to ban Dow's chlorpyrifos pesticide that had been initiated by the Obama administration. Research has concluded that even minuscule amounts of chlorpyrifos can disrupt the development of fetuses and infants. In August, it was revealed that in fact Pruitt and other EPA officials had met with industry representatives on dozens of occasions in the weeks immediately prior to the March decision, promising them that it was "a new day" and assuring them that their wish to continue using chlorpyrifos had been heard. Ryan Jackson, Pruitt's chief of staff, said in a March 8 email that he had "scared" career staff into going along with the political decision to deny the ban, adding "[T]hey know where this is headed and they are documenting it well." Emails also indicated that the decision was closely coordinated with the White House and the Department of Agriculture.[99] Following the decision, the American Academy of Pediatrics said they were "deeply alarmed" and urged Pruitt to take chlorpyrifos off the market saying, "There is a wealth of science demonstrating the detrimental effects of chlorpyrifos exposure to developing fetuses, infants, children and pregnant women. The risk to infant and children's health and development is unambiguous."[100][101]

Wendy Cleland-Hamnett, the agency's previous top official overseeing pesticides and toxic chemicals, said she first felt concern when the EPA's new leadership decided to reevaluate a plan to ban methylene chloride, and trichloroethylene, two chemicals that have caused deaths and severe health problems. “It was extremely disturbing to me. The industry met with EPA political appointees. And then I was asked to change the agency’s stand.” In March 2017, Hamnett was again instructed to ignore the recommendation of EPA scientists and deny the ban of chlorpyrifos. Hamnett retired in September and was replaced by a toxicologist who has spent years helping businesses fight EPA restrictions.[10]

In 2017, a coalition of attorneys general for several states, farm workers, and environmental groups sued then-EPA chief Scott Pruitt over his chlorpyrifos ban reversal. Saying that the EPA had "violated federal law by ignoring the conclusions of agency scientists that chlorpyrifos is harmful," on August 9, 2018, the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in San Francisco ordered the EPA to remove chlorpyrifos from sale in the United States within 60 days.[102]
Trump has also enacted executive orders to remove regulations on drinking water:
On February 28, 2017, President Trump enacted an executive order to allow the Administrator of the EPA to revise or rescind the Clean Water Rule, also referred to as Waters of the United States (WOTUS), in the name of economic growth and eliminating ambiguous regulations.[115] Research cited by the EPA shows that one in three Americans get their water from public drinking water systems which are partly sourced from streams protected by the Clean Water Rule. These streams may be in danger of pollution by industrial and agricultural waste, sewage, radioactive materials and a large number of other pollutants now covered by the Clean Water Rule.[116] The Audubon Society has expressed concerns about a repeal of the Rule. They write at their website: "...the Trump administration’s intent is clear: to reverse Obama-era environmental protections no matter what, even if they have been effective at protecting avian and human life."[117]
He has at least planned to do the same to regulations of coal emissions standards:
On August 21, 2018 the Trump administration announced plans to cut back Obama's coal emissions standards for coal-fired power plants, calling them "overly prescriptive and burdensome." The Trump plan increases the leeway given states to make their own decisions on coal emission standards, saying it "empowers states, promotes energy independence, and facilitates economic growth and job creation." Critics say the proposal would allow states to run and extend the life of older less efficient power plants and use less stringent emission guidelines for establishing new plants.[122]
Trump's science denial isn't just Twitter buffoonery, but has already had a negative effect on environmental policies.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#1605

Post by Kirbmarc » Mon Nov 05, 2018 10:26 am

d4m10n wrote: And now a word from Richard Dawkins . . .

The evidence for Trump being a liar on a level beyond that of his fellow politicians, Democrats and Republicans, is clearly shown by this infographic:

http://i.imgur.com/gpQwRyI.jpg

But just in case some people forgot about the many instances when Trump was a science denier, here there are a few tweets and videos.

Trump and anti-vaxxing:

https://www.historyofvaccines.org/sites ... 8%20AM.png

http://www.gethealthyadvice.com/wp-cont ... tism-1.jpg

Trump and global warming denialism:


Trump and his very, very dumb ideas about CFCs (he also apparently seems to think that his rooms are airtight):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6l7TUJ6iSU

At least the case of global warming, Trump's science denial isn't just performative Twitter drama. He pulled out of the 2015 Paris Agreement, shilled heavily for the coal industry, and has planned to expand offshore drilling.

Trump's scientific ignorance and support for anti-scientific conspiracy thinking likely played a role in his choices in matters of environmental policies, like nominating an incompetent, ethically challenged politician to led the EPA:
In his campaigns for Oklahoma Attorney General, Pruitt received major corporate and employee campaign contributions from the fossil fuel industry, taking in at least $215,574 between 2010 and 2014 even though he ran unopposed in the latter year. As Oklahoma's Attorney General, Pruitt sued the Environmental Protection Agency at least 14 times regarding the agency's actions. In 2012, Pruitt was elected as chairman of the Republican Attorneys General Association and re-elected for a second term in February 2013.

Pruitt rejects the scientific consensus that human-caused carbon dioxide emissions are a primary contributor to climate change.[3]

By July 2018, Pruitt was under at least 14 separate federal investigations by the Government Accountability Office, the EPA inspector general, the White House Office of Management and Budget, the U.S. Office of Special Counsel, and two House committees over his spending habits, conflicts of interests, extreme secrecy, and management practices. Pruitt made frequent use of first-class travel as well as frequent charter and military flights. As EPA administrator, Pruitt leased a condo in Washington D.C. at a deeply discounted rate from a lobbyist whose clients were regulated by the EPA. Pruitt further caused ethics concerns by circumventing the White House and using a narrow provision of the Safe Drinking Water Act to autonomously give raises to his two closest aides of approximately $28,000 and $57,000 each, which were substantially higher than salaries paid to those in similar positions in the Obama administration, and which allowed both to avoid signing conflicts of interest pledges. By June 2018, amid a steady succession of revelations of misconduct, a growing chorus of conservatives had begun suggesting that Pruitt should resign.
Trump's appointed head of the EPA has also supported cuts to regulation of hazardous chemicals:
In March 2017, EPA Administrator Scott Pruitt denied that he had met with Dow Chemicals CEO Andrew Liveris before making a decision to deny a petition to ban Dow's chlorpyrifos pesticide that had been initiated by the Obama administration. Research has concluded that even minuscule amounts of chlorpyrifos can disrupt the development of fetuses and infants. In August, it was revealed that in fact Pruitt and other EPA officials had met with industry representatives on dozens of occasions in the weeks immediately prior to the March decision, promising them that it was "a new day" and assuring them that their wish to continue using chlorpyrifos had been heard. Ryan Jackson, Pruitt's chief of staff, said in a March 8 email that he had "scared" career staff into going along with the political decision to deny the ban, adding "[T]hey know where this is headed and they are documenting it well." Emails also indicated that the decision was closely coordinated with the White House and the Department of Agriculture.[99] Following the decision, the American Academy of Pediatrics said they were "deeply alarmed" and urged Pruitt to take chlorpyrifos off the market saying, "There is a wealth of science demonstrating the detrimental effects of chlorpyrifos exposure to developing fetuses, infants, children and pregnant women. The risk to infant and children's health and development is unambiguous."[100][101]

Wendy Cleland-Hamnett, the agency's previous top official overseeing pesticides and toxic chemicals, said she first felt concern when the EPA's new leadership decided to reevaluate a plan to ban methylene chloride, and trichloroethylene, two chemicals that have caused deaths and severe health problems. “It was extremely disturbing to me. The industry met with EPA political appointees. And then I was asked to change the agency’s stand.” In March 2017, Hamnett was again instructed to ignore the recommendation of EPA scientists and deny the ban of chlorpyrifos. Hamnett retired in September and was replaced by a toxicologist who has spent years helping businesses fight EPA restrictions.[10]

In 2017, a coalition of attorneys general for several states, farm workers, and environmental groups sued then-EPA chief Scott Pruitt over his chlorpyrifos ban reversal. Saying that the EPA had "violated federal law by ignoring the conclusions of agency scientists that chlorpyrifos is harmful," on August 9, 2018, the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in San Francisco ordered the EPA to remove chlorpyrifos from sale in the United States within 60 days.[102]
Trump has also enacted executive orders to remove regulations on drinking water:
On February 28, 2017, President Trump enacted an executive order to allow the Administrator of the EPA to revise or rescind the Clean Water Rule, also referred to as Waters of the United States (WOTUS), in the name of economic growth and eliminating ambiguous regulations.[115] Research cited by the EPA shows that one in three Americans get their water from public drinking water systems which are partly sourced from streams protected by the Clean Water Rule. These streams may be in danger of pollution by industrial and agricultural waste, sewage, radioactive materials and a large number of other pollutants now covered by the Clean Water Rule.[116] The Audubon Society has expressed concerns about a repeal of the Rule. They write at their website: "...the Trump administration’s intent is clear: to reverse Obama-era environmental protections no matter what, even if they have been effective at protecting avian and human life."[117]
He has at least planned to do the same to regulations of coal emissions standards:
On August 21, 2018 the Trump administration announced plans to cut back Obama's coal emissions standards for coal-fired power plants, calling them "overly prescriptive and burdensome." The Trump plan increases the leeway given states to make their own decisions on coal emission standards, saying it "empowers states, promotes energy independence, and facilitates economic growth and job creation." Critics say the proposal would allow states to run and extend the life of older less efficient power plants and use less stringent emission guidelines for establishing new plants.[122]
Trump's science denial isn't just Twitter buffoonery, but has already had a negative effect on environmental policies.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#1606

Post by Brive1987 » Mon Nov 05, 2018 1:04 pm

d4m10n wrote:
Guest_514f8ceb wrote: The rightardation of Brive (and others...) was the natural conclusion of the pyt since any community that focuses so intensely on any particular culture war issue like that (SJWs in muh) will end up so if it doesn't already attract weirdos (it did, though I'm glad Steersman is still out of jail). But that's fine, opinions are like assholes and Brive's asshole must be particularly damaged by now considering his proclivities (Anglo) and in general the forum provides humor to the rest of us in the form of a collective that's become about as demented as FTB on average.
Brive1987 wrote:
Wed Oct 31, 2018 7:11 pm

Hey guest. Let me explain a few truths to you ....

Hidden Content
This board requires you to be registered and logged-in to view hidden content.
:lol: :lol: :lol:

Guest has a point though. Building pit membership around "Intersectional social justice keyboard warriors in muh atheism!" has tended to attract folks who oppose left-liberalism in general, rather than focusing tightly on the excesses of callout culture. Sam Harris and some of his fellow travelers in the IDW have been noticing a similar pattern.
FTFY
.. has tended to attract folks who aggressively shill left-liberalism in general, rather than focusing tightly on the excesses of callout culture
There are converging causes behind the contemporary pressures to pick a side. The Pit shone in a bubble devoid of these drivers.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#1607

Post by free thoughtpolice » Mon Nov 05, 2018 2:09 pm

A billboard in St. Louis. The cult of covfefe hath spoke.
jesus trump.PNG
(229.98 KiB) Downloaded 101 times

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#1608

Post by Kirbmarc » Mon Nov 05, 2018 2:24 pm

free thoughtpolice wrote: A billboard in St. Louis. The cult of covfefe hath spoke.
jesus trump.PNG
Yet another good reason to be an atheist. :twatson:

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#1609

Post by Kirbmarc » Mon Nov 05, 2018 2:28 pm

Brive1987 wrote: FTFY
.. has tended to attract folks who aggressively shill left-liberalism in general, rather than focusing tightly on the excesses of callout culture
There are converging causes behind the contemporary pressures to pick a side. The Pit shone in a bubble devoid of these drivers.
Criticizing your sacred cows of "cultural collectives" and your favorite alt-"lite" Youtubers is aggressive shilling :twatson:

Is talking about Enlightenment values and liberal democracy micro-aggression? Do you need a safe space?

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#1610

Post by Brive1987 » Mon Nov 05, 2018 3:19 pm

Blind adherence to “Enlightenment values and liberal democracy” is dangerous in troubled times. They white-ant the ability of society to maintain cohesion and defend against introduced collectives.

This doesn’t mean we can’t study and value the abstract, nor does it mean we need national socialism! We do however need to be pragmatic. Redo education. Assert national celebrations without a black armband, limit immigration, be a bit more prescriptive about what immigrants have to assimilate into (starting with english). Acknowledge our Christian heritage without mandate. Tell naysayers “they are not welcome here” and isolation them in in social life. Oops. Sorry. Got a bit jackboot with that last one.

In any case. The CFB sponsored safe space is over on the main thread. Enjoy.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#1611

Post by Steersman » Mon Nov 05, 2018 6:49 pm

Brive1987 wrote: Blind adherence to “Enlightenment values and liberal democracy” is dangerous in troubled times. They white-ant the ability of society to maintain cohesion and defend against introduced collectives.

This doesn’t mean we can’t study and value the abstract, nor does it mean we need national socialism! We do however need to be pragmatic. Redo education. Assert national celebrations without a black armband, limit immigration, be a bit more prescriptive about what immigrants have to assimilate into (starting with english). Acknowledge our Christian heritage without mandate. Tell naysayers “they are not welcome here” and isolation them in in social life. Oops. Sorry. Got a bit jackboot with that last one.

In any case. The CFB sponsored safe space is over on the main thread. Enjoy.
You started slow, but had a great finish; I was all ready to sign up until I realized you weren't really serious about the last (penultimate?) bit ... ;)





In any case, this recent article by Kenan Malik may warm the cockles of your heart: blood, soil and citizenship. Salient quote:
In both countries, wariness about jus soli was driven by the sense that certain groups were incompatible with the nation. In the 19th century, Jews were cast as the unassimilable ‘other’. More recently, North Africans or West Indians were given that role. Today, it’s often Muslims.
Bit more evidence, and of a rather "sanguinary" nature, that Muslims are more likely to be "unassimilable" than there ever was for any other groups. Many groups make allegiance to the tribe the ultimate test - rather problematically close to an apotheosis of the collective - but Muslims seem rather more explicit in their peddling of demented theocracy. Which is intrinsically antithetical to democracy - oil and water doesn't have a patch on that incompatibility, that immiscibility.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#1612

Post by Brive1987 » Mon Nov 05, 2018 7:11 pm

Kirb needs to get some more Kaufmann into him.

This is why the liberal wet-left need to STFU.
Kaufmann and other scholars have noted that religious immigrants and their offspring are often very resistant to secularization and there is some social science research indicating that the children of immigrants tend to become more religious than their parents. In 2010, Kaufmann reported that the rate of secularisation flattened to zero in most of Protestant Europe and France.
I argue that 97% of the world's population growth is taking place in the developing world, where 95% of people are religious
we can expect significant immigration to the secular West which will import religious revival on the back of ethnic change. In addition, those with religious beliefs tend to have higher birth rates than the secular population, with fundamentalists having far larger families. The epicentre of these trends will be in immigration gateway cities like New York (a third white), Amsterdam (half Dutch), Los Angeles (28% white), and London, 45% white British.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#1613

Post by Kirbmarc » Tue Nov 06, 2018 12:07 am

Brive1987 wrote: Kirb needs to get some more Kaufmann into him.

This is why the liberal wet-left need to STFU.
Kaufmann and other scholars have noted that religious immigrants and their offspring are often very resistant to secularization and there is some social science research indicating that the children of immigrants tend to become more religious than their parents. In 2010, Kaufmann reported that the rate of secularisation flattened to zero in most of Protestant Europe and France.
I argue that 97% of the world's population growth is taking place in the developing world, where 95% of people are religious
we can expect significant immigration to the secular West which will import religious revival on the back of ethnic change. In addition, those with religious beliefs tend to have higher birth rates than the secular population, with fundamentalists having far larger families. The epicentre of these trends will be in immigration gateway cities like New York (a third white), Amsterdam (half Dutch), Los Angeles (28% white), and London, 45% white British.
I know why this happens and why this happens to children of immigrants. Do you want to know?

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#1614

Post by Brive1987 » Tue Nov 06, 2018 12:18 am

As long as it’s not “too little Locke”. And maybe add in why this problem should be “our” problem to solve.

An ounce of prevention ... and all that.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#1615

Post by Kirbmarc » Tue Nov 06, 2018 2:07 am

Brive1987 wrote: As long as it’s not “too little Locke”. And maybe add in why this problem should be “our” problem to solve.

An ounce of prevention ... and all that.
No, it's not "too little Locke". It's "Salafi clerics and institutions" combined with "isolated, ghettoized communities".

Young people are gregarious and follow their thought-leaders. This is why you get young SJWs in the "west". In muslim communities the loudest, most well-paid, best structured institutional leaderships are at least 90% from Salafi leaders (the remaining 10% are Shia conservative leaders). Structures like "muslim councils", "muslim rights associations", "anti-islamophobia institutions", online forums, online preachers, newspapers (propaganda rags like Al_Jazeera), imams, madrassas, street preachers, muslim community organizers, even "ethic" seemingly non-religious groups, like football teams, psychological self-help groups, and poetry recitals, are basically MONOPOLIZED by Salafis.

To live in a muslim community is to be constantly bombarded by Salafi propaganda, and to have to watch out for enforcers of said propaganda who go around collecting people with various mental health issues and turning them into an obsessed "social police" that makes anyone afraid of even slightly treading away from the prescribed path. Social shame is thoroughly exploited. Intimidation is also common.

Persian Gulf theocracies have showered BOATLOADS of money onto these associations and figures, they've provided them with universities, books, Arabic language courses, legal support, easy loans, etc. And those associations and figures are all INCREDIBLY conservative/reactionary, even those which don't directly support violence. They preach conspiracy theories about Jews that would make even Stormfront readers blush, they preach death/imprisonment to apostates and "heretics" (including, for example, the Amhadis who carry on bleating that the "real islam" is tolerant and peaceful), they disdain LGBT people in a way that dwarfs that of the most fanatic American Christian fundamentalists, they are so patriarchal about women that any feminist worth their salt would be horrified to even read 10% of what they say.

And yet they receive awards as "human rights advocates" or "human rights groups". They get invitations to political events as "community activist". They get articles on the HuffPo or other self-proclaimed secular and progressive outlets that allow them to repeat their apology for gullible westerners. And nobody important in the left dares to directly criticize them, because if they do they're cast with the alt-right and called racists.

On both the left AND the right side of the spectrum every politician keeps licking the feet of the Gulf theocracies, calling them "moderates", selling them weapons, allowing them to lobby heavily and with no oversight, even saying that they're cooperating to "stop terrorism" ( :lol: ). Everyone. Even Donald "muslim ban" Trump. :twatson:

This is, like it or not, is sending the Gulf theocracy the message that everything is OK with Salafi preaching.

Leftist politicians might tend to give Iran more of a pass, while right-wingers are more fond of Saudi Arabia, but the effect is still the same. Muslim leaders and politicians can routinely get away with preaching stuff that would be considered nazism if spouted by a "western" non-muslim.

Muslim "scholars" can get away with saying that muslim slavery wasn't so bad, or that women who don't cover their hair basically deserve to be raped, because no one really cares: the left thinks this is some wacky form of resistance to western capitalism/imperialism (when actually those religious leaders are ultra-privileged and don't give a shit about "fighting capitalism"), the right is too busy focusing on race/ethnicity/culture and absolving religion, looking for ways to ban all immigrants who are seen as too swarthy without understanding what's REALLY going on.

Blocking immigration won't solve this issue, because you have these Salafi institutions ALREADY HERE in "western" countries. You have rich Salafi leaders buying football teams, aviation companies, politicians, banks, newspapers, without anyone batting an eye. You focus on the poor immigrants who have little to no social, economic, cultural power while you let the rich and influential power players off the hook.

You already have a generation of people who are going to grow up being exposed to this environment in "western" countries. It's FAR TOO LATE to dream of a white Australia. Unless you want to go full "population transfers" like Steersman (and believe me, you don't want to) this is ALREADY "your" problem to solve. You can bitch and moan for how long you want, but it won't change reality.

So you either try to take a serious look at Salafi institutions, try to dismantle them, and offer alternatives, or you vote for populist leaders who will promise idiotic "muslim bans" but actually only prevent refugees from coming in, while they allow the Salafi institutions to proceed undisturbed. You can acknowledge that the problem is religion, and especially conservative/reactionary religion, or you can get lost chasing ancestry and "culture" down to an alt-right rabbit hole.

The problems with the obsession of the alt-right on ethnicity/visibile "race", like in the case of Southern's Paris video, are that a) it obfuscates the effects of religion and b) it gives prominence to both people obsessed with ethnicity EVEN MORE than Southern and Co, and to the easy leftist rebuttal to criticism of conservative/reactionary islam as "racism". If you want to SERIOUSLY deal with conservative/reactionary islam going around filming people who simply aren't white isn't helping your case.

Christianity used to be MUCH more conservative in the past. Generations of people who contested its conservatism, could create their own institutions, and eventually chased the conservative/reactionaries into a retreat, turned Christianity into a bunch of old people mumbling prayers and young people who might visit the church on Christmas or even don't care about religion that much. Pop culture, secular education, secular higher education helped A LOT. The most culturally influential "western" people of the late 20th century were hardly Christian, or not Christian at all. THIS is why Christianity today is so "tame" that for some it's just a matter of cultural badges.

In Islam the secularization process has been strangled in its crib by Salafi money and influence, with significant "western" (especially American) support to stop the Godless Commies. The fruits of the conservative/reactionary push are easy to see.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#1616

Post by Kirbmarc » Tue Nov 06, 2018 2:26 am

There are plenty of Christian Arabs in the "west". They have the same ethnicity and more or less the same culture of Muslim Arabs. And yet Christian Arabs have more or less integrated so well that they're seen just as slightly "ethnic" white guys. Ralph Nader is a second-generation Christian Arab. So is Fernando Haddad. And they're both boring, milquetoast leftist political leaders. Nassim Nicholas Taleb is another prominent second generation Christian Arab. The most edgy thing he does is to annoy Lehman Brothers.

Hell, there are plenty of Jewish Arabs in the "west", too, and they're not particularly different from other "western" Jews, even though culturally their parents were very close, culturally speaking, to Muslim Arabs.

The problem isn't ethnicity or culture. The problem is religion. And right now the problem is specifically islam, and more specifically the ultra-conservative/reactionary bent of modern islam due to overwhelming Salafi (and to a lesser extent Iranian Shia) influence.

The reason why the ultra-conservative/reactionary modern islam is so powerful is because NO ONE openly and directly opposes it. Not only because of SocJus fears of being an "islamophobe", but because the Salafi leaders have bought SO MANY institutions in the west that all people, be they on the left or on the right, are wary of even slightly upsetting them.

You can dream of walls and immigration bans, but ideas and money don't care about those things. Unless you address the Salafi cultural and economic infiltration all you're doing is pandering to those obsessed with ancestry.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#1617

Post by Kirbmarc » Tue Nov 06, 2018 2:38 am

Incidentally one of the reasons why the religious right wing is so eager to blame the issues of immigration and integration onto ancestry or "culture" is to continue promoting its own pandering to conservative theocrats. It's hard to talk about the true issues of islam when you're also defending people who agree with the Salafis that LGBT people are "sinners". There's a little bit of "theocracy envy" in there as well.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#1618

Post by Brive1987 » Tue Nov 06, 2018 1:32 pm

1. You are creating too heavy a divide between Islam the religion and Islamic aligned culture.
2. Islamic probity can be impressed from afar. It’s wise to limit the in-circle number of receivers.
3. Given the problems you raise, we appear to be in tactical agreement that it was a mistake to open the doors prematurely
4. One would imagine a ‘Muslim ban’ would be appropriate to slam the stable doors shut albeit with one horse inside
5. Following from 1, I doubt there is a cultural Maronite Christian inside every Muslim, just waiting to break free
6. The West. culture thing is important as it sets the vision, helps defines the mission and guides possible action. Ie context.
7. I’d agree that Gulf states shouldn’t have influence they do. It’s part of the secular global big business mentality

Yours is a simple explanatory model. So I’ll offer a simple counter:

Stop the inflow, the problem doesn’t need to get bigger. Define the cultural parameters of the host society. Breakdown extant alien social structure via required cultural integration. Ban inflows of Gulf social terraforming - money, institutions and people. Ignore the calls of ‘racist’. Have a fund for voluntary repatriation for those disappointed with the reversal of shariah. Invite the rest over for a mixed grill bbq.

All a bit peripheral to the local situation. We are becoming a soulless global post-national society largely because of culturally disconnected inflows from China and India. And the bastardisation of our defining urban spaces. The upside is that the only truck you face danger from is the removalist van as they move in.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#1619

Post by Kirbmarc » Tue Nov 06, 2018 2:13 pm

Brive1987 wrote: 1. You are creating too heavy a divide between Islam the religion and Islamic aligned culture.
Under the right amount of social pressure, and in absence of institutional constraints, cultures change and mix. Religion, and especially organized, institutional religion, are a big constraint.
2. Islamic probity can be impressed from afar. It’s wise to limit the in-circle number of receivers.
You do this by cutting off the pipes laid for Salafism, and first you need to expose the pipe-layers.
3. Given the problems you raise, we appear to be in tactical agreement that it was a mistake to open the doors prematurely
It's not a matter of "opening doors", as much as it is a matter of regulating immigration and integration. You can't stop fluxes from overpopulated, politically and socially unstable areas simply by legal fiat: people will keep coming. You need to decide how to deal with those fluxes and how to deal with people who get in. You can't let everyone in, so you've got to make choices, and to know what you're doing. Also once they're in you have to pay attention to what's going on, about who the thought leaders and community institutions are.
4. One would imagine a ‘Muslim ban’ would be appropriate to slam the stable doors shut albeit with one horse inside
A "muslim ban" is not only illiberal, it's overly generic and wide in its reach. You need to know your enemy, to be specific about which messages you're fighting against. Trump's "muslim ban" threw together anyone who move to the US from certain countries. It actually ended up stopping more secular or wishy washy muslims than Salafi ideologues and clerics.
5. Following from 1, I doubt there is a cultural Maronite Christian inside every Muslim, just waiting to break free
Maronite Christians are as conservative/reactionary as average Lebanese muslims in Lebanon. But in the US or the UK or Argentina integration happened for the Maronites, while there are issues with Muslim integration, and indeed even radicalization of second-generation muslim immigrants. Why wasn't a fundamentalist Christian militians inside every Maronite, waiting to break free in the second generation? (Answer: because there are no institutions and thought leaders radicalizing them).
6. The West. culture thing is important as it sets the vision, helps defines the mission and guides possible action. Ie context.
This isn't about culture per se, it's about conservative/reactionary religion vs secularism.
7. I’d agree that Gulf states shouldn’t have influence they do. It’s part of the secular global big business mentality
Lobbies and special interests have way too much power in general. Corporate power in politics/social policies needs to be curtailed.
Stop the inflow, the problem doesn’t need to get bigger. Define the cultural parameters of the host society. Breakdown extant alien social structure via required cultural integration. Ban inflows of Gulf social terraforming - money, institutions and people. Ignore the calls of ‘racist’. Have a fund for voluntary repatriation for those disappointed with the reversal of shariah. Invite the rest over for a mixed grill bbq.


"Stopping the inflow" is an empty slogan. Regulating the inflow so that you get more educated people/genuine refugees from repressive regimes looking for a more stable society is a more realistic approach. The cultural parameters are a matter of modern/liberal democratic values rather than "culture" per se, and cultural integration requires inclusive institutions that can out-compete and dismantle the theocratic/conservative/reactionary ones.
All a bit peripheral to the local situation. We are becoming a soulless global post-national society largely because of culturally disconnected inflows from China and India. And the bastardisation of our defining urban spaces. The upside is that the only truck you face danger from is the removalist van as they move in.
Cultural mixing and integration happen. Perhaps the issue in Australia is excessive ghettoization and not enough in terms of a civil society where people of different cultural background can meet?

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#1620

Post by Steersman » Thu Nov 08, 2018 2:41 pm

Kirbmarc wrote:
Brive1987 wrote: As long as it’s not “too little Locke”. And maybe add in why this problem should be “our” problem to solve.

An ounce of prevention ... and all that.
No, it's not "too little Locke". It's "Salafi clerics and institutions" combined with "isolated, ghettoized communities".

<snippety doo dah>

You already have a generation of people who are going to grow up being exposed to this environment in "western" countries. It's FAR TOO LATE to dream of a white Australia. Unless you want to go full "population transfers" like Steersman (and believe me, you don't want to) this is ALREADY "your" problem to solve. You can bitch and moan for how long you want, but it won't change reality.

<more snippety doo dah>

In Islam the secularization process has been strangled in its crib by Salafi money and influence, with significant "western" (especially American) support to stop the Godless Commies. The fruits of the conservative/reactionary push are easy to see.
LoL. "And believe me, you don't want to"? Sounds like a threat, like "nice society you have, sure wouldn't want it to turn into a shithole like most Muslim countries, now would you" ....

Memes_Democrats_DestroyAmerica.jpg
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It HAS in fact worked in many circumstances; no reason it can't be pressed into service again. Where there's a will, there's a way ...

But your epistle reminds me of having taken a scuba diving course - lo, these many moons ago - at which the first order of business was a test that the teacher gave to all and sundry. And one of the first items on the test, after entering one's name and such, was a statement/"command" to not go any further, to not answer any of the later questions. The objective of course was to see if people were able to reading the fucken manual. Which several people in the class failed by continuing on by dilgently proceeding to answer irrelevant questions ....

To wit:
Brive1987 wrote: As long as it’s not “too little Locke”. And maybe add in why this problem should be “our” problem to solve.

An ounce of prevention ... and all that.
All fine and dandy to blather on about what are, on the face of it to anyone with an ounce of intellectual honesty, irrelevant and decidedly impractical bandaid solutions while conveniently ignorning the crux of the matter. Which is that Islam ain't ever going to evolve unless Muslims have their noses rubbed in the psychosis that is their "religion", until the "moderates" who give the "extremists" breathing room are forced to make a choice between living in shitholes or pissing on their "religion" and on their "holy book" [ha!]

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