The Trump Dump!

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2401

Post by Kirbmarc » Sun Jan 27, 2019 1:20 am

The error of the SocJus is to perfectly mirror the "racial collectives" of the historic racialised focus, only with an inverted polarity.

The SocJus is a VERY American-centric phenomenon. You can see this in the idea that the main Oppression Narrative they focus on is "White vs POC", where "POCs" are all who are not "White", lumping together Native Americans, African Americans, Asian Americans, and immigrants or American citizens with visible ancestry from India or the Middle East or North Africa or South East Asia, or Polinesia, or every place but what has been historically defined as "white" in the US.

This is because the SocJus is the mirror narrative of the historically far-right American beliefs about race. You can easily see this in the edge cases.

Italian Americans were subjected to discrimination when they come to the US, but have been gradually accepted even by the American far-right, so in the SocJus they're part of the "white oppressors" and have "white privilege" even though their ancestors very likely didn't have African slaves in the US, and likely came to America long after slavery had been made illegal.

On the other hand since the American far-right has never accepted Turkish-Americans to be "white", Turks are lumped with the "Oppressed POC" category, even though Turkey has never been colonized by European powers.

It's actually eerie how much the SocJus mirrors the American far-right beliefs about race. Just like KKK or other American far-right race-focused movements, the SocJus think that the US are a "white supremacist" country, and that all differences in outcomes depend strictly on this fact.

They also think that race is about ancestry, hence why, despite the superficial description of race as a "social construct", "trans-racial" people like Rachel Dolezal aren't celebrated, but instead seen as oppressors "stealing" oppression points.

They also think that "cultural appropriation", i.e. the natural process of mixing and copying cultural products across cultures, is bad, just like far-right organizations think that "race-mixing" is bad, even in cultural terms, of course with the difference that the far-right things that "whites" are sullying themselves by partaking in "non-white" culture, while the SocJus thinks that it's the "whites" who are trivializing and ruining the noble "non-white" cultures.

The SocJus also tends to be obsessed with "authenticity" and ideological purity, just like the far-right. Hijabs are celebrated as a symbol of "resistance" to "white supremacy", just like the far-right sees turbans as a symbol of the "invaders". Conservative and simply not-SocJus "POCs", from Aayan Hirsi Ali to Jamila Bey to Anjuli Pandavar, are rejected as traitors, seen as feeble-minded dupes of the "white supremacists", just like the far-right sees leftist whites as traitors and feeble-minded dupes of the "Jewish conspiracy".

Indeed many times you can take SocJus articles on how white males are oppressing people just by existing, and we need less of them in position of power, replace "white males" with "Jews", and get what looks like a Stormfront articles. Or take an article about why white males are the root of all evils, replace "white" with "black" and get what looks like a KKK manifesto.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2402

Post by Brive1987 » Sun Jan 27, 2019 4:45 am

Weird how you instantly segue from cultural nationalism to Alt-Right to Nazism.

Kind of a QED for your selective application of nuance.

In times gone by cultural nationalism has not been inconsistant with Western democracy. in fact there was no need to protect and defend it - it was implicit in Western society. The problem we have now is the poisoning of national forms of democratic society with enforced multiculturalism, cultural relativism and proto SJ ideologies.

Contemporary western society is working through a diminishing cultural overdraft, it’s diminishing success is in spite of current trends, but because of them.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2403

Post by Brive1987 » Sun Jan 27, 2019 4:46 am

CaptainFluffyBunny wrote:
Brive1987 wrote:
CaptainFluffyBunny wrote:
And what is this "will of the people" bullshit? Most Americans aren't for a wall.
Trump was elected (on the basis of his platform) by “a majority of people in a majority of states” or somfink

:doh:
Electoral College. Which failed its sole duty.
How specifically did it fail? Was it a moral or legal failure?

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2404

Post by Brive1987 » Sun Jan 27, 2019 4:59 am

Captain Fluffy - here is some intellectual word salad for you to add to your hate list
The error of the SocJus is to perfectly mirror the "racial collectives" of the historic racialised focus, only with an inverted polarity.
:)

Kirb, we have plenty (and increasing) “SocJus” in Australia, its not an American phenomenon. It’s closer to a shared John Glubb phase IV scenario.

“Duty is abandoned and selfishness prevails”

Ie the liberal nihilism directed towards traditional collective endeavour and concomitant values.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2405

Post by CaptainFluffyBunny » Sun Jan 27, 2019 10:07 am

Brive1987 wrote:
CaptainFluffyBunny wrote:
Brive1987 wrote:
CaptainFluffyBunny wrote:
And what is this "will of the people" bullshit? Most Americans aren't for a wall.
Trump was elected (on the basis of his platform) by “a majority of people in a majority of states” or somfink

:doh:
Electoral College. Which failed its sole duty.
How specifically did it fail? Was it a moral or legal failure?
Moral. The idea that smaller states needed some leverage has fallen, as it is now swing states that hold all the power. So their one job was to prevent demagogues from getting through.

Utter failure, wouldn't you agree?

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2406

Post by CaptainFluffyBunny » Sun Jan 27, 2019 10:42 am

Brive1987 wrote: Captain Fluffy - here is some intellectual word salad for you to add to your hate list
The error of the SocJus is to perfectly mirror the "racial collectives" of the historic racialised focus, only with an inverted polarity.
:)

Kirb, we have plenty (and increasing) “SocJus” in Australia, its not an American phenomenon. It’s closer to a shared John Glubb phase IV scenario.

“Duty is abandoned and selfishness prevails”

Ie the liberal nihilism directed towards traditional collective endeavour and concomitant values.
Nah, I got what he was saying. Social Justice is just mirroring the racists on the far right, but turning that hatred towards whitey. In both cases, the actual person is subsumed by their group identity. That sorta sucks.

And while your alt-right makes kissy noises and plays lip service to tradition, they don't really mean it. Like SocJus, it's just all about hate. Otherwise, they'd drop the racial component and concentrate on ideas. They won't. That seems to be left to the centrists, as flawed a group as they are.

You see noble military traditions disappear and a severe hatred spring up about what they represent, and it infuriates you. You see things that were representative of the Australia you knew change, and that saddens or even frightens you. I get that. But the alt-right doesn't have your back in this. They simply are a reaction, and one that is doomed by public opinion to always be a fringe movement. There's a reason no savvy politician will touch them with a ten-foot pole; they're toxic as hell. They put most people off. And they're wrong.

You can't simply condemn people because of where they're from. I know Muslims that are good people. Some fight for my country. One is in the risky business of Coast Guard rescue, flying a JHawk out into the Bering Sea. Playing the politics of hate hurts innocent people, and all it does is stir up more hate.

Yes, Europe was dumb to let a flood of migrants in without a plan or place for them. Yes, they have an outsized criminal population. We should have had a plan to deal with them better, force the other gulf states to take most of them in. Any number of things. But, this doesn't mean every refugee was a bad guy waiting to yell Allauackbar and kill Europeans. A lot of them were just doing the exact same thing you'd have done had you been in their shoes. They had no country left to fight for, only a choice between a murderous despot and horrific Islamists. It was leave or die senselessly.

Things are going to change regardless. Unless we manage a world war, we will have a global economy. If you really want to get angry at someone for changing Australia, don't get mad at the Chinese, get mad at whichever Aussies are getting rich selling them real estate. Politics is driven by money.

Long story short, I don't believe in lumping people together, and ideas are more important than group identity. If you want to save the ideals that you value, you'll concentrate on ideas. Because right now your biggest danger isn't the Chinese guy, it's the white, marxist professor that's indoctrinating young people into accepting really bad ideas and worldview.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2407

Post by CaptainFluffyBunny » Sun Jan 27, 2019 10:58 am


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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2408

Post by Lsuoma » Sun Jan 27, 2019 11:26 am

CaptainFluffyBunny wrote:
Brive1987 wrote:
CaptainFluffyBunny wrote:
Brive1987 wrote:
CaptainFluffyBunny wrote:
And what is this "will of the people" bullshit? Most Americans aren't for a wall.
Trump was elected (on the basis of his platform) by “a majority of people in a majority of states” or somfink

:doh:
Electoral College. Which failed its sole duty.
How specifically did it fail? Was it a moral or legal failure?
Moral. The idea that smaller states needed some leverage has fallen, as it is now swing states that hold all the power. So their one job was to prevent demagogues from getting through.

Utter failure, wouldn't you agree?
Congress failed then, not the electoral college. But fucking hell, they are all a useless bunch of cunts. The US needs a complete overhaul of the constitution.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2409

Post by CaptainFluffyBunny » Sun Jan 27, 2019 1:27 pm

Lsuoma wrote:
CaptainFluffyBunny wrote:
Brive1987 wrote:
CaptainFluffyBunny wrote:
Brive1987 wrote:
CaptainFluffyBunny wrote:
And what is this "will of the people" bullshit? Most Americans aren't for a wall.
Trump was elected (on the basis of his platform) by “a majority of people in a majority of states” or somfink

:doh:
Electoral College. Which failed its sole duty.
How specifically did it fail? Was it a moral or legal failure?
Moral. The idea that smaller states needed some leverage has fallen, as it is now swing states that hold all the power. So their one job was to prevent demagogues from getting through.

Utter failure, wouldn't you agree?
Congress failed then, not the electoral college. But fucking hell, they are all a useless bunch of cunts. The US needs a complete overhaul of the constitution.
Yikes! Most of it is still working. Minor tweak here and there. The Constitution is our semi-religious thing, probably serving a similar function to the British Monarchy. It is revered, loved, worshiped. A complete do-over would break the nation's back. And considering the lot in power now, it would be an incoherent mess.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2410

Post by MarcusAu » Sun Jan 27, 2019 1:38 pm

I always got the feeling that if Americans were to try and re-write the Constitution today it would go nowhere - as no one would be able to agree on anything.

And also it would be difficult to calculate what 3 fifths would come to after more than 250 years of inflation.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2411

Post by CaptainFluffyBunny » Sun Jan 27, 2019 2:56 pm


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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2412

Post by Sunder » Sun Jan 27, 2019 4:55 pm

My issue with the "Trump won in 2016 ergo 'the public' wants his policies enacted" is that since then we've also had a major election in which Trump bent over backwards to make the whole thing a referendum on himself and lost, bigly.

Also, the obvious problem of now being the time for action on the wall rather than any time in the past two years in which Republicans could have rammed it through with no opposition. Call me a cynic because I am one but it really does have all the appearance of being a fight for the sake of a fight. And for extra value they picked a fight they couldn't and didn't even win.

But it gets better. Mulvaney today is already floating the idea of a shutdown round two. I cannot fucking wait.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2413

Post by free thoughtpolice » Sun Jan 27, 2019 6:51 pm

Sunder wrote: My issue with the "Trump won in 2016 ergo 'the public' wants his policies enacted" is that since then we've also had a major election in which Trump bent over backwards to make the whole thing a referendum on himself and lost, bigly.

Also, the obvious problem of now being the time for action on the wall rather than any time in the past two years in which Republicans could have rammed it through with no opposition. Call me a cynic because I am one but it really does have all the appearance of being a fight for the sake of a fight. And for extra value they picked a fight they couldn't and didn't even win.

But it gets better. Mulvaney today is already floating the idea of a shutdown round two. I cannot fucking wait.
When Trump went bankrupt from time to time he covered his ass by shortchanging his contractors and employees. He has been a disaster his entire life. Now he seems to just short change his employees, government workers that he thinks he owns now out of habit.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2414

Post by Brive1987 » Mon Jan 28, 2019 12:24 am

CaptainFluffyBunny wrote:
Sun Jan 27, 2019 10:42 am
Brive1987 wrote: Captain Fluffy - here is some intellectual word salad for you to add to your hate list
The error of the SocJus is to perfectly mirror the "racial collectives" of the historic racialised focus, only with an inverted polarity.
:)

Kirb, we have plenty (and increasing) “SocJus” in Australia, its not an American phenomenon. It’s closer to a shared John Glubb phase IV scenario.

“Duty is abandoned and selfishness prevails”

Ie the liberal nihilism directed towards traditional collective endeavour and concomitant values.
Nah, I got what he was saying. Social Justice is just mirroring the racists on the far right, but turning that hatred towards whitey. In both cases, the actual person is subsumed by their group identity. That sorta sucks.

And while your alt-right makes kissy noises and plays lip service to tradition, they don't really mean it. Like SocJus, it's just all about hate. Otherwise, they'd drop the racial component and concentrate on ideas. They won't. That seems to be left to the centrists, as flawed a group as they are.

You see noble military traditions disappear and a severe hatred spring up about what they represent, and it infuriates you. You see things that were representative of the Australia you knew change, and that saddens or even frightens you. I get that. But the alt-right doesn't have your back in this. They simply are a reaction, and one that is doomed by public opinion to always be a fringe movement. There's a reason no savvy politician will touch them with a ten-foot pole; they're toxic as hell. They put most people off. And they're wrong.

You can't simply condemn people because of where they're from. I know Muslims that are good people. Some fight for my country. One is in the risky business of Coast Guard rescue, flying a JHawk out into the Bering Sea. Playing the politics of hate hurts innocent people, and all it does is stir up more hate.

Yes, Europe was dumb to let a flood of migrants in without a plan or place for them. Yes, they have an outsized criminal population. We should have had a plan to deal with them better, force the other gulf states to take most of them in. Any number of things. But, this doesn't mean every refugee was a bad guy waiting to yell Allauackbar and kill Europeans. A lot of them were just doing the exact same thing you'd have done had you been in their shoes. They had no country left to fight for, only a choice between a murderous despot and horrific Islamists. It was leave or die senselessly.

Things are going to change regardless. Unless we manage a world war, we will have a global economy. If you really want to get angry at someonet for changing Australia, don't get mad at the Chinese, get mad at whichever Aussies are getting rich selling them real estate. Politics is driven by money.

Long story short, I don't believe in lumping people together, and ideas are more important than group identity. If you want to save the ideals that you value, you'll concentrate on ideas. Because right now your biggest danger isn't the Chinese guy, it's the white, marxist professor that's indoctrinating young people into accepting really bad ideas and worldview.
I really don’t fathom why I’m consistently lumped with the “alt-right” - or even what that is outside the racial conspiracy people. And I loath the white Marxist professor far more than the Asian dude who is being industrious. But I’m not so stupid as to believe that a million or more Asian dudes won’t have a cultural and life style impact on how my country works.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2415

Post by Brive1987 » Mon Jan 28, 2019 12:25 am

And oh, the world is organised around collectives. The only shifting variable is which one is stronger.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2416

Post by Brive1987 » Mon Jan 28, 2019 12:29 am

Sunder wrote: My issue with the "Trump won in 2016 ergo 'the public' wants his policies enacted" is that since then we've also had a major election in which Trump bent over backwards to make the whole thing a referendum on himself and lost, bigly.

Also, the obvious problem of now being the time for action on the wall rather than any time in the past two years in which Republicans could have rammed it through with no opposition. Call me a cynic because I am one but it really does have all the appearance of being a fight for the sake of a fight. And for extra value they picked a fight they couldn't and didn't even win.

But it gets better. Mulvaney today is already floating the idea of a shutdown round two. I cannot fucking wait.
The mid term as a sacrosanct test of mandate is ridiculous. At best it shifts gear ratios and provides a weak indicator for the next legitimate test of authority.

I’m confident Trump is cynically using the wall as a ideological brand against democrats post mid term to clarify ideological poles.

I’m also wagering he will go emergency powers next time.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2417

Post by Brive1987 » Mon Jan 28, 2019 12:44 am

Having the Electoral College go tangential (post election) is an odd desire.

Surely your enemy is the RNC? Weren’t there super delegates or something which could overturn the will of the grass roots and impose the will of the party elites? Sounds a lot more ‘land of the free’ - ish.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2418

Post by Brive1987 » Mon Jan 28, 2019 12:56 am

You see noble military traditions disappear
I have severe doubts over said traditions (in fact I’m in the middle of a serious MA reinterpretation which I hope will go PhD). That said I’m recognising my old ‘outrage for the truth’ operated in a naive bubble. I’d now be happy to leverage the origins traditions for their established job of group-glue. Even that’s forlorn.They are being transfigured to civic national nothing-burgers applicable to anyone from anywhere.

I do get your ‘noble individual’ argument. It’s proponents don’t acknowledge the reality that it doesn’t scale to mass migration which introduces macro uncontrolled cultural shifts.

Acknowledging the latter opens the racism front on behalf of the former. It’s an old game.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2419

Post by Kirbmarc » Mon Jan 28, 2019 1:11 am

Brive1987 wrote:
Sunder wrote: My issue with the "Trump won in 2016 ergo 'the public' wants his policies enacted" is that since then we've also had a major election in which Trump bent over backwards to make the whole thing a referendum on himself and lost, bigly.

Also, the obvious problem of now being the time for action on the wall rather than any time in the past two years in which Republicans could have rammed it through with no opposition. Call me a cynic because I am one but it really does have all the appearance of being a fight for the sake of a fight. And for extra value they picked a fight they couldn't and didn't even win.

But it gets better. Mulvaney today is already floating the idea of a shutdown round two. I cannot fucking wait.
The mid term as a sacrosanct test of mandate is ridiculous. At best it shifts gear ratios and provides a weak indicator for the next legitimate test of authority.

I’m confident Trump is cynically using the wall as a ideological brand against democrats post mid term to clarify ideological poles.

I’m also wagering he will go emergency powers next time.


I agree that Trump has turned The Wall into an ideological battle of virtue-signalling for his die-hard fans.

He's trapped himself into a corner, though. He can't accept a compromise, and he's put himself into a much weaker political position. He's nit likely to get anything that his supporters would find meaningful.

Not to mention the damage to government employees and the political fatigue kicking in if the shutdown goes on.

His hardcore voters will stay in his side no matter what, but he's definitely lost most of his appeal to more independents and less fanatical fractions of the electorate.

It's possible that he might be impeached, but even if he isn't, he's likely squandered his chances in 2020, and possibly set the GOP up for an electoral disaster.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2420

Post by Brive1987 » Mon Jan 28, 2019 1:32 am

It’s 50/50 virtue signal to Mark of Cain.

I doubt he will repeat the shut down. That card has been played.

2020 is disputed ground. Especially given the second-elevens the Democrats have thus far presented.

Did you see Gillibrand‘s effort as a would-be revivalist preacher? :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2421

Post by Kirbmarc » Mon Jan 28, 2019 2:30 am

Brive1987 wrote: It’s 50/50 virtue signal to Mark of Cain.

I doubt he will repeat the shut down. That card has been played.

2020 is disputed ground. Especially given the second-elevens the Democrats have thus far presented.

Did you see Gillibrand‘s effort as a would-be revivalist preacher? :lol: :lol: :lol:
Gillibrand isn't likely to win the nomination.

Trump has failed so badly even Ann Coulter and Tucker Carlson, of all people, are mumbling about how they're disappointed.

Trump's numbers are AWFUL with independents. It's 2 to 1 against him. He won the Rust Belt by very small margins, and in the 2018 mid-terms GOP candidates lost in Wisconsin, Pennsylvania, Michigan and Arizona and struggled very hard in Florida and even Georgia.

In Florida 1.4 million ex-cons got back their voting rights. That's very bad news for Trump.

It's a very uphill battle for him. A halfway tolerable Democrat could easily kick his ass.

Not to mention that if someone like Kamala Harris wins the nomination lots of minority Obama voters who stayed at home in 2016 will show up at the ballots.

Realistically speaking I wouldn't put Trump's chances over 1 in 8.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2422

Post by Sunder » Mon Jan 28, 2019 3:50 am

Brive1987 wrote: The mid term as a sacrosanct test of mandate is ridiculous. At best it shifts gear ratios and provides a weak indicator for the next legitimate test of authority.

I’m confident Trump is cynically using the wall as a ideological brand against democrats post mid term to clarify ideological poles.

I’m also wagering he will go emergency powers next time.
Again, Trump did everything he could to make the midterms a referendum on his Presidency. Republicans didn't want that. Dems didn't even want that. Trump wanted it. And he got what he wanted, and didn't like it. What's oddly "sacrosanct" is the idea that he ever had a mandate at all based on a win by the skin of his teeth.

The emergency powers gambit is a hilarious combination of toothlessness and potential own-goaling. It will immediately blow up in Trump's face as the House of Representatives and the courts shut it down, but even attempting it flings the door wide open for a future Democrat to pull a similar stunt over anything that's even remotely less flimsy a pretext for an emergency.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2423

Post by CaptainFluffyBunny » Mon Jan 28, 2019 1:13 pm



He really should have returned her phone call.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2424

Post by Old_ones » Mon Jan 28, 2019 2:05 pm

Sunder wrote:
Brive1987 wrote: The mid term as a sacrosanct test of mandate is ridiculous. At best it shifts gear ratios and provides a weak indicator for the next legitimate test of authority.

I’m confident Trump is cynically using the wall as a ideological brand against democrats post mid term to clarify ideological poles.

I’m also wagering he will go emergency powers next time.
Again, Trump did everything he could to make the midterms a referendum on his Presidency. Republicans didn't want that. Dems didn't even want that. Trump wanted it. And he got what he wanted, and didn't like it. What's oddly "sacrosanct" is the idea that he ever had a mandate at all based on a win by the skin of his teeth.

The emergency powers gambit is a hilarious combination of toothlessness and potential own-goaling. It will immediately blow up in Trump's face as the House of Representatives and the courts shut it down, but even attempting it flings the door wide open for a future Democrat to pull a similar stunt over anything that's even remotely less flimsy a pretext for an emergency.
And even then Trump only won "by the skin of his teeth" in the electoral collage. That is enough to get you the presidency in our system, but a win by electoral college fiat doesn't get you a "mandate", which would presumably derive from the strength of your popular support.

Trump lost the popular vote in 2016 by almost 3 million votes, and there is evidence that he took illegal assistance from a foreign adversary, and made illegal campaign donations to himself. If Donald Trump is, in fact, a legitimate president (I don't consider him one) it has to be conceded that he is less legitimate than any other president our history. By contrast, in the 2018 elections, the Democrats won the popular vote by around 8.6% or about 14 million votes nationally, in an election that had a higher turnout than any midterm since 1916.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Unit ... _elections

There is no question about which party has more support from the electorate at the present time. The idea that the broken and corrupt 2016 election would be a better indication of the will of the people than the 2018 election is jaw-droppingly stupid.

As much as mouthbreathing right wingers want to believe their own myths about a silent majority of "shy Trump voters", no such thing has ever been evident. If it were, Trump wouldn't have to worry about Nancy Pelosi right now. Trump won in 2016 mostly by gaming the system. He was able to do that because Hillary was unpopular, leading to a large number of undecided voters, the presence of prominent 3rd party candidates, and because of illegal foreign intervention on his behalf.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2425

Post by Brive1987 » Mon Jan 28, 2019 2:46 pm

Trump won in 2016 because he turned Blue states Red.

That gives him a 4 year publicly mandated job (per the preset game rules) to try and enact his public platform.
A small part-payment on said platform ($50b), offered in a quid pro quo fashion, is mature politics.

Initiating a scorched earth narrative of muh “illegitimate president” (in conjunction with MSM) is a catastrophic escalation.
The long term damage is far worse than conventional (partisan) senate obstruction.

Looks like the libs now have a two for two record on setting nuclear precedents. :clap:

It was supposed to be the rednecks who would disavow a loss. The Democratic salt is astounding.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2426

Post by Sunder » Mon Jan 28, 2019 3:10 pm

What about Trump has ever suggested "quid pro quo" and him belong in the same sentence?

He has been offered deals for Wall. He turned them down. Now he's being offered nothing and he's gonna take it. Wall is not happening. His own side does not want to fight for Wall because the genuine anti-immigrant conservatives would rather cut legal immigration or spend more on actually effective, technical solutions to border security. And they can actually cajole Dems into agreeing to the latter, so why fight harder for something they don't want when they can get something they do want for far less effort?

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2427

Post by Brive1987 » Mon Jan 28, 2019 3:12 pm

Three year extension for the dreamers - which would probably put the decision back to a Dem President.

This is a virtual capitulation to the Dems, but apparently not enough .....

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2428

Post by Sunder » Mon Jan 28, 2019 4:08 pm

SCOTUS already put DACA in an indefinite holding pattern so that's like negotiating with hostages that have already been let out of the building. It would actually be a capitulation to Republicans for Dems to accept a deal that gave them only 3 years to resolve the DACA situation.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2429

Post by Kirbmarc » Mon Jan 28, 2019 4:19 pm

Brive1987 wrote: Trump won in 2016 because he turned Blue states Red.
True, but that was done, in many cases, by very small margins: little more than 10,000 votes in Michigan (0,23% of all votes in the state), less than 23,000 votes in Wisconsin (0,70%) and by little more than 44,000 votes in Pennsylvania (0.82%). Those are very easy margins to lose, so he should have treated carefully to maintain and increase his appeal, at least if he truly cares about winning those states again in 2020.

Instead he squandered his political capital there:in December 2018 his net approval was -6 in Pennsylvania and -12 in Wisconsin and Michigan. Those are lower approval ratings than the one he has in Virginia (-3), which Clinton won. Notably he's more disapproved of than approved in all the blue states he turned red, and even in some red states (Arizona, North Carolina, Georgia)
That gives him a 4 year publicly mandated job (per the preset game rules) to try and enact his public platform.
True, and that included The Wall. Which he did little about when he had a majority in congress. Why? Now he's in a much worse position, having lost the control of the House of Representatives by a significant margin. Separation of powers is also part of preset game rules, and now it's keeping him in check, per said rules.

By the way Trump also promised to "drain the swamp", i.e. reduce corruption, graft, corporate cronyism, and various shenanigans. Considering how many of the members of his staff are corporate cronies, have been forced to retire because of conflicts of interests, or convicted of crimes, or have left because of his shenanigans, I'd say that this was an abject failure, too.
A small part-payment on said platform ($50b), offered in a quid pro quo fashion, is mature politics.
Trump could have worked on The Wall at his leisure before the 2018 mid-terms. Instead he waited, and now he has to deal with a hostile House. Not only that, but he was offered a compromise before the shutdown, and he decided to reject it. The shutdown didn't work as well as he thought, and now his bargaining power is sensibly reduced. So much for the Art of Deal.
Initiating a scorched earth narrative of muh “illegitimate president” (in conjunction with MSM) is a catastrophic escalation.
Trump is involved in an investigation which MIGHT (and I stress MIGHT) imply him in conspiracy or aiding and abetting a violation of American election laws by a foreign power. Yet Trump hasn't been impeached yet, let alone convicted. So much for the "catastrophic escalation". Bill Clinton was impeached (but not convicted) because of a lie about a blow job. :bjarte:

Obama was subjected to conspiracy theories about his birth certificated for years, in an attempt to build an "illegitimate president" narrative. Trump himself was a big sponsor of those conspiracy theories.

Trump hasn't got an easy time with the media, because he lies a lot, has chosen people in his entourage who have been involved in political and legal scandal, he frequently engages in clownish twitter antics, and he explicitly targets the media as "the enemy of the people". Surprise, surprise, that's not a way to get a glowing coverage.

Being cozy to various far-right groups also hasn't been good for his image.
The long term damage is far worse than conventional (partisan) senate obstruction.
What, exactly, is the long term damage, in legal or institutional terms? How is it worse that conventional partisanship? Or is twitter drama the real long term damage?
Looks like the libs now have a two for two record on setting nuclear precedents. :clap:
What is the nuclear precedent?
It was supposed to be the rednecks who would disavow a loss. The Democratic salt is astounding.
We'll see how much Republican salt will be spilled if Trump loses in 2020. :bjarte:

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2430

Post by Old_ones » Mon Jan 28, 2019 4:25 pm

Brive1987 wrote: Trump won in 2016 because he turned Blue states Red.

That gives him a 4 year publicly mandated job (per the preset game rules) to try and enact his public platform.
A small part-payment on said platform ($50b), offered in a quid pro quo fashion, is mature politics.
Trump's win was dubious by legal and historical standards. Trump won without the majority of the country backing him. You don't have to like that, but it's a fact.

In spite of the dubiousness of Trump's win, he got 2 years with both houses of congress completely dominated by his own party. If he had any clue how to practice "mature politics" he could have sold them on his "platform" and got it funded without a single democratic vote. That didn't happen because even his own party recognizes that he is an incompetent cretin. He was good as a useful idiot to approve their tax cuts and their federal society judges, and they don't really give a fuck about his "platform".

Now that he's been trounced in a midterm (i.e. the Democrats turned 40 Red districts Blue) the opposition party doesn't owe him shit. If he wants something, maybe he should read that book about negotiating that he allegedly wrote.
Brive1987 wrote: Initiating a scorched earth narrative of muh “illegitimate president” (in conjunction with MSM) is a catastrophic escalation.
The long term damage is far worse than conventional (partisan) senate obstruction.

Looks like the libs now have a two for two record on setting nuclear precedents. :clap:

It was supposed to be the rednecks who would disavow a loss. The Democratic salt is astounding.
We have electoral laws for a reason, and we have evidence they were broken. If I won a chess competition by using a device to communicate with a chess computer, you would presumably agree that I was not a legitimate chess champion. In order for a president to be legitimate, he has to win without illegal advantages. The fact that there were ongoing conspiracies between Russian operatives and the NRA and the Trump campaign is now documented in multiple criminal indictments. That's not "democratic salt", it's criminal corruption, and it absolutely calls the results of the election into question. This is especially true given that Trump didn't even win the popular vote. He lost it by a margin of more than twice the population of Seattle.

My personal hope is that Trump and whoever else was involved will be prosecuted, and will spend the rest of their miserable lives in federal prison. That might have a catastrophic impact on the Republican party, but it is exactly the medicine our country needs. Gerald Ford was wrong to pardon Nixon because he set a precedent for presidents to get away with criminal behavior. This is a good opportunity to reverse that.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2431

Post by Brive1987 » Mon Jan 28, 2019 4:26 pm

So we are not going down the post K-man narrative that SCOTUS = RSHA. ;)

You sure about a Blue aligned SCOTUS?
In November 2014, Obama announced his intention to expand DACA to make more people eligible.[19][20] However, in December 2014, Texas and 25 other states, all with Republican governors, sued the U.S. District Court for the Southern District of Texas asking the court to enjoin implementation of both the DACA expansion and Deferred Action for Parents of Americans,(a similar program).[21][22][23] In February 2015, Judge Andrew S. Hanen issued a preliminary injunction blocking the expansion from going into effect while the case, Texas v. United States, proceeded.[24][25] After progressing through the court system, an equally divided (4–4) Supreme Court left the injunction in place, without setting any precedent.[26]

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2432

Post by Brive1987 » Mon Jan 28, 2019 4:30 pm

Kirb. You are moving the goal posts. Everything you say may have relevance for the 2020 election. It’s doesn’t constrain Trump’s 17-20 programme. If he wants to enact his ‘16 programme even at the cost of ‘20 - well thats his tactical prerogative.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2433

Post by KiwiInOz » Mon Jan 28, 2019 4:32 pm

Brive1987 wrote: snip

I really don’t fathom why I’m consistently lumped with the “alt-right”

snip
If the MAGA cap fits, Brive ...

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2434

Post by Keating » Mon Jan 28, 2019 4:40 pm

Old_ones wrote: My personal hope is that Trump and whoever else was involved will be prosecuted, and will spend the rest of their miserable lives in federal prison. That might have a catastrophic impact on the Republican party, but it is exactly the medicine our country needs. Gerald Ford was wrong to pardon Nixon because he set a precedent for presidents to get away with criminal behavior. This is a good opportunity to reverse that.
As an outsider who doesn't pay too much attention to American politics, that cracking down hard on Trump will only make things worse. There seems to be a very partisan approach taken to who gets charged, with Democrats getting immunity or ignored, even for strict-liability offences, whereas anyone even slightly Trump friendly getting smacked down for even technicalities. Seems to me that if you really want to crack down on Trump, and there's plenty of slimy behaviour that you could do so on, then it would make the most sense to also crack down on the other side. The politicisation of law enforcement is a part of the reason that Trump is your president in the first place.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2435

Post by Kirbmarc » Mon Jan 28, 2019 4:40 pm

This definitely doesn't bode well for Trump or the GOP:
In the 2018 midterm elections, the Democrats, led by Nancy Pelosi, won control of the House and gained 41 seats from their total after the 2016 elections (including one seat gained previously with Conor Lamb's March 2018 special election victory). The 41-seat gain was the Democrats' largest gain of House seats since the post-Watergate 1974 elections, when they picked up 49 seats. The Democrats also won the popular vote by a margin of 8.6%, the largest margin on record for a minority party. Turnout was the highest for a midterm election in more than a century, with over half the electorate casting ballots.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2436

Post by Old_ones » Mon Jan 28, 2019 4:54 pm

Keating wrote:
Old_ones wrote: My personal hope is that Trump and whoever else was involved will be prosecuted, and will spend the rest of their miserable lives in federal prison. That might have a catastrophic impact on the Republican party, but it is exactly the medicine our country needs. Gerald Ford was wrong to pardon Nixon because he set a precedent for presidents to get away with criminal behavior. This is a good opportunity to reverse that.
As an outsider who doesn't pay too much attention to American politics, that cracking down hard on Trump will only make things worse. There seems to be a very partisan approach taken to who gets charged, with Democrats getting immunity or ignored, even for strict-liability offences, whereas anyone even slightly Trump friendly getting smacked down for even technicalities. Seems to me that if you really want to crack down on Trump, and there's plenty of slimy behaviour that you could do so on, then it would make the most sense to also crack down on the other side. The politicisation of law enforcement is a part of the reason that Trump is your president in the first place.
As an American who pays a great deal of attention to my country's politics I think you should probably know what you are talking about before offering predictions and perceptions.

The Democrats are not being given immunity, they are just orders of magnitude less criminal than Republicans. The Republicans want to spin Trump's criminal scandals as the FBI becoming partisan, but the FBI and special council are doing exactly what they should do when faced with rampant criminality that effects one party but not the other. Federal law enforcement didn't invent criminal charges for Democrats during Watergate so that they could play the cable news "both sides" game, either.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2437

Post by Brive1987 » Mon Jan 28, 2019 4:59 pm

Kirb ..

Clinton was impeached because he was caught in a non escapable lie to Congress. Congress is free to apply the same flame to Trump.

Trump can choose to enact his game plan whenever he wants between 17-19. Without your permission. Armchair criticism of his tactics is Monday quarterback level beer and pretzels material.

Mainstream (ie Party/MSM) challenging of a legitimately elected President is a considerable escalation on ‘inbounds’ obstruction and birther flak from the non mainstream. I’ll leave you to ponder why.

The first Nuclear precedent was in 2013 (Harry Reid). I’d say the second precedent was the SJW/MSM/Democrat assault on a legitimate government. That’s going to be nasty when applied (in a form) in reverse.

.......

Is there anything less murky than the Steele Dossier? It is the Birther Conspiracy on steroids.

You have never-Trump WFB and Democrat Elias stampeding to GPS for dirt. You have GPS outsourcing it’s actual IP creation to Steele. You then have GPS and Steele working pro-bono ‘because it matters’ to complete the dox.

The top secret pile is then released to CNN who won’t publish. It is then released to BuzzFeed.

Even Steele admits that maybe 30% is bullshit (yes but which 30%) and the pissing scenario is pegged at 50% chance of being BS.
His methodology for invalidating his own report is less clear.

Steele’s firm made $20 million over ten years on the basis of reports of Russian collusion in multiple western countries. It’s his shtick.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2438

Post by Brive1987 » Mon Jan 28, 2019 5:04 pm

KiwiInOz wrote:
Brive1987 wrote: snip

I really don’t fathom why I’m consistently lumped with the “alt-right”

snip
If the MAGA cap fits, Brive ...
I have a MAGA cap in the cupboard, to appall liberal friends. I doubt you could find a pair of Marschstiefel which fit though.

Alas, these days there appears to be no real distinction drawn.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2439

Post by Keating » Mon Jan 28, 2019 5:15 pm

Old_ones wrote: The Democrats are not being given immunity, they are just orders of magnitude less criminal than Republicans. The Republicans want to spin Trump's criminal scandals as the FBI becoming partisan, but the FBI and special council are doing exactly what they should do when faced with rampant criminality that effects one party but not the other.
That Hillary Clinton was not charged for a strict liability offence, and that Tony Podesta got immunity are two obvious examples.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2440

Post by Brive1987 » Mon Jan 28, 2019 5:23 pm

Old_ones - what is your wisdom on this?


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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2441

Post by Old_ones » Mon Jan 28, 2019 5:26 pm

Brive1987 wrote: Is there anything less murky than the Steele Dossier? It is the Birther Conspiracy on steroids.

You have never-Trump WFB and Democrat Elias stampeding to GPS for dirt. You have GPS outsourcing it’s actual IP creation to Steele. You then have GPS and Steele working pro-bono ‘because it matters’ to complete the dox.

The top secret pile is then released to CNN who won’t publish. It is then released to BuzzFeed.
The Steele Dossier was a lead, which was given to the FBI early in their investigation of Trump's ties to Russia. It may or may not have actually led to any new conclusions and it is largely irrelevant. The special council investigation has produced evidence of a conspiracy to influence the 2016 election, and so has the investigation into Maria Butina, a Russian spy who plead guilty to illegally using the NRA as a means to influence the republican party. This was part of a completely separate prosecution and investigation from Mueller. In addition to this, Trump is an indicted co-conspirator to Cohen's illegal hush money payement to Stormy Daniels. The fact that you would be bringing up the Steele Dossier shows that you aren't actually paying attention to the way the current picture of the 2016 election has developed over the past year or so.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2442

Post by free thoughtpolice » Mon Jan 28, 2019 5:31 pm

Keating wrote:
Old_ones wrote: The Democrats are not being given immunity, they are just orders of magnitude less criminal than Republicans. The Republicans want to spin Trump's criminal scandals as the FBI becoming partisan, but the FBI and special council are doing exactly what they should do when faced with rampant criminality that effects one party but not the other.
That Hillary Clinton was not charged for a strict liability offence, and that Tony Podesta got immunity are two obvious examples.
I'm guessing you got the Tony Podesta immunity story from Tucker Carlson or another Fox News source. I turns out this was false.
https://thehill.com/homenews/administra ... t-manafort
I'm not sure what you think Crooked Hillary should have been charged with, maybe doing government business on an unauthorized communications line? You do know that Ivanka Trump also did this without charges even after her father kept demanding Clinton get locked up for the same offense? You really need to follow more than one side of the story to get the whole picture.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2443

Post by Old_ones » Mon Jan 28, 2019 5:47 pm

Brive1987 wrote: Old_ones - what is your wisdom on this?

My "opinion" is that it doesn't change vote totals. You can lecture me about who voted for Trump and why he won Michigan, and I still don't give a fuck, because there were millions more people who voted for Clinton than for Trump.

Its also still my position that there is evidence that the Trump campaign violated the law with their campaign tactics. Finding "political synergy" with russian intellegence makes you illegitimate.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2444

Post by Lsuoma » Mon Jan 28, 2019 6:06 pm

Old_ones wrote: Trump won without the majority of the country backing him. You don't have to like that, but it's a fact.
Let's wait and see what Mueller comes up with, unless the Dems want to start impeachment right away, for which I believe they have a sufficiency - even a surfeit of evidence. Unfortunately, though, they know the current Senate will not convict as things stand, and need stronger stuff.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2445

Post by Brive1987 » Mon Jan 28, 2019 6:09 pm

Old_ones wrote:
Brive1987 wrote: Is there anything less murky than the Steele Dossier? It is the Birther Conspiracy on steroids.

You have never-Trump WFB and Democrat Elias stampeding to GPS for dirt. You have GPS outsourcing it’s actual IP creation to Steele. You then have GPS and Steele working pro-bono ‘because it matters’ to complete the dox.

The top secret pile is then released to CNN who won’t publish. It is then released to BuzzFeed.
The Steele Dossier was a lead, which was given to the FBI early in their investigation of Trump's ties to Russia. It may or may not have actually led to any new conclusions and it is largely irrelevant. The special council investigation has produced evidence of a conspiracy to influence the 2016 election, and so has the investigation into Maria Butina, a Russian spy who plead guilty to illegally using the NRA as a means to influence the republican party. This was part of a completely separate prosecution and investigation from Mueller. In addition to this, Trump is an indicted co-conspirator to Cohen's illegal hush money payement to Stormy Daniels. The fact that you would be bringing up the Steele Dossier shows that you aren't actually paying attention to the way the current picture of the 2016 election has developed over the past year or so.
I’m bringing it up as an example of how Dems and MSM are happy to leverage birther level BS to effect. This is an escalation. I’m happy to wait to see what the FBI determine based on leads not yet leaked.

I’m also happy to patiently wait for Mueller to come up with something germane to his brief. Ie Trump and Russia colluding to steal the election. Plus any other random shit that wafts through on a breeze.

So far we have:
Papadopoulos doing 14 days for false statements
Gates on false statements
Manafort being leveraged for bank fraud
Flynn on false statements
Cohen doing two months for false statements
Stone on false statements, witness tampering

Oh and Trump apparently paying off a gold digging, black-mailing hooker. What we don’t have are charges relating to actual collusion.

Now I enjoy a good troll as much as the average man. If we can believe Whitaker, it’s almost “showtime”.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2446

Post by Brive1987 » Mon Jan 28, 2019 6:16 pm

The Clinton impeachment result demonstrated that lying under oath was a breach of etiquette.

Mueller needs to hit pay-dirt.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2447

Post by CaptainFluffyBunny » Mon Jan 28, 2019 8:28 pm

Keating wrote:
Old_ones wrote: My personal hope is that Trump and whoever else was involved will be prosecuted, and will spend the rest of their miserable lives in federal prison. That might have a catastrophic impact on the Republican party, but it is exactly the medicine our country needs. Gerald Ford was wrong to pardon Nixon because he set a precedent for presidents to get away with criminal behavior. This is a good opportunity to reverse that.
As an outsider who doesn't pay too much attention to American politics, that cracking down hard on Trump will only make things worse. There seems to be a very partisan approach taken to who gets charged, with Democrats getting immunity or ignored, even for strict-liability offences, whereas anyone even slightly Trump friendly getting smacked down for even technicalities. Seems to me that if you really want to crack down on Trump, and there's plenty of slimy behaviour that you could do so on, then it would make the most sense to also crack down on the other side. The politicisation of law enforcement is a part of the reason that Trump is your president in the first place.
The politicization of law enforcement, like using Border Agents as pawns? Or perhaps asking about the loyalty of the head of the FBI to your person? I don't know when some people are going to understand that Comey's announcement of the FBI investigation sunk Clinton. Comey accidentally put Trump in as POTUS. And other retcons are bordering on the insane.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2448

Post by CaptainFluffyBunny » Mon Jan 28, 2019 8:29 pm

Also, Clinton has been thoroughly investigated. Anything else is a Fox talking point.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2449

Post by CaptainFluffyBunny » Mon Jan 28, 2019 8:34 pm

Brive1987 wrote:
Old_ones wrote:
Brive1987 wrote: Is there anything less murky than the Steele Dossier? It is the Birther Conspiracy on steroids.

You have never-Trump WFB and Democrat Elias stampeding to GPS for dirt. You have GPS outsourcing it’s actual IP creation to Steele. You then have GPS and Steele working pro-bono ‘because it matters’ to complete the dox.

The top secret pile is then released to CNN who won’t publish. It is then released to BuzzFeed.
The Steele Dossier was a lead, which was given to the FBI early in their investigation of Trump's ties to Russia. It may or may not have actually led to any new conclusions and it is largely irrelevant. The special council investigation has produced evidence of a conspiracy to influence the 2016 election, and so has the investigation into Maria Butina, a Russian spy who plead guilty to illegally using the NRA as a means to influence the republican party. This was part of a completely separate prosecution and investigation from Mueller. In addition to this, Trump is an indicted co-conspirator to Cohen's illegal hush money payement to Stormy Daniels. The fact that you would be bringing up the Steele Dossier shows that you aren't actually paying attention to the way the current picture of the 2016 election has developed over the past year or so.
I’m bringing it up as an example of how Dems and MSM are happy to leverage birther level BS to effect. This is an escalation. I’m happy to wait to see what the FBI determine based on leads not yet leaked.

I’m also happy to patiently wait for Mueller to come up with something germane to his brief. Ie Trump and Russia colluding to steal the election. Plus any other random shit that wafts through on a breeze.

So far we have:
Papadopoulos doing 14 days for false statements
Gates on false statements
Manafort being leveraged for bank fraud
Flynn on false statements
Cohen doing two months for false statements
Stone on false statements, witness tampering

Oh and Trump apparently paying off a gold digging, black-mailing hooker. What we don’t have are charges relating to actual collusion.

Now I enjoy a good troll as much as the average man. If we can believe Whitaker, it’s almost “showtime”.
Shit, Bannon himself said the Trump Jr meeting was treasonous. They took Intel from Russia, knowing good and well where it came from without disclosing it to the FBI. If it was a Democrat doing this, you'd shit bricks, but because it "triggers" liberals, you're willing to overlook it. This idea that politics should be seperate from ethics is disturbing.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2450

Post by CaptainFluffyBunny » Mon Jan 28, 2019 8:35 pm


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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2451

Post by CaptainFluffyBunny » Mon Jan 28, 2019 8:39 pm

How many indictments now? What a fucking great witch hunt.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2452

Post by CaptainFluffyBunny » Mon Jan 28, 2019 9:41 pm


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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2453

Post by CaptainFluffyBunny » Mon Jan 28, 2019 9:50 pm

Not exactly a mandate, hmm?

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2454

Post by Brive1987 » Mon Jan 28, 2019 9:58 pm

They’re going to crack Don Junior like an egg on national TV.”
Bannon 'the go to man' for honest history.

I give Trump the same pass I gave Shermer. Both are dicks. Neither deserve the Full on witch hunt or SJW cuts.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2455

Post by Brive1987 » Mon Jan 28, 2019 10:03 pm

Nearly half.

That would be the democrats. Trumps been bouncing along at 4x.x forever with no-one being indifferent.

The responsibility to enact Executive policy is conferred every 4 years. Not when Mary-Sue at Buzzfeed feelz like rolling out Survey Monkey on a slow Wednesday.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2456

Post by Kirbmarc » Mon Jan 28, 2019 11:40 pm

Brive1987 wrote: Kirb ..

Clinton was impeached because he was caught in a non escapable lie to Congress. Congress is free to apply the same flame to Trump.
But they don't. So much for "scorched earth".
Trump can choose to enact his game plan whenever he wants between 17-19. Without your permission. Armchair criticism of his tactics is Monday quarterback level beer and pretzels material.
Weren't you a fan of data and statistics? Data shows how Trump has failed, badly, and is now in a much worse position than he was before.

Also you conveniently ignored the point about separation of powers. Being a US president isn't being an absolute dictator for four years. Trump now has to deal with a democratically elected heavily majority Democrat House, which can choose to block Ttump's plans without his permission.

Trump ruined his own plans, and now his hands are tied.
Mainstream (ie Party/MSM) challenging of a legitimately elected President is a considerable escalation on ‘inbounds’ obstruction and birther flak from the non mainstream. I’ll leave you to ponder why.
Birtherism was very much supported by Red Media, and by considerable parts of the GOP, on much flimsier bases than concerns about illegal actions of Trump's during the campaign.
The first Nuclear precedent was in 2013 (Harry Reid). I’d say the second precedent was the SJW/MSM/Democrat assault on a legitimate government. That’s going to be nasty when applied (in a form) in reverse.
If a Democratic candidate will get flack for having done shady deals with a foreign power to get dirt on their Republican opponent then it'd be equally applied in reverse.

So far the GOP delegitimation strategies have focused on hunts for birth certificates.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2457

Post by Kirbmarc » Mon Jan 28, 2019 11:48 pm

Brive1987 wrote:
Mon Jan 28, 2019 10:03 pm
Nearly half.

That would be the democrats. Trumps been bouncing along at 4x.x forever with no-one being indifferent.

The responsibility to enact Executive policy is conferred every 4 years. Not when Mary-Sue at Buzzfeed feelz like rolling out Survey Monkey on a slow Wednesday.
Trump's numbers are appalling with independents, only roughly 1 in 3 supports him, according to most polls.

His overall approval rating is down to 37% according to Gallup.

Also, again, executive powers aren't absolute. Trump has lost control of the House, which means he can't get laws passed, and has to deal with a strong opposition.

All the talks of "scorched earth" or alleged unprecedented unfairness are only a victimhood narrative.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2458

Post by Kirbmarc » Mon Jan 28, 2019 11:56 pm

Brive1987 wrote: The Clinton impeachment result demonstrated that lying under oath was a breach of etiquette.

Mueller needs to hit pay-dirt.
And yet Trump fans complain about how it's so unprecedented and unfair that Trump is subjected to alleged indignities.

Republican media have qccused Democratic administrations of being illegitimate or evrn treasonous for far less than what happened with Trump.

There's no unprecedented political scorched earth, just an attention seeking twitter troll for a president, who is looking for drama to get people not to pay attention to his failures.

Also graft, corruption and shady deals which are being focused on as they always would.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2459

Post by Brive1987 » Tue Jan 29, 2019 12:08 am

Fivethirtyeight have him at 40%.

The next election may well indicate a majority are unhappy with his approach. Until then his job is to get his elected Executive programme through Congress. Preferably in a manner that incites support. That’s the game. Why do you think I don’t know this game has ‘checks and balances’ to navigate. Losing support of one (or both) houses isn’t a directive to cease and desist. Obama is living proof of that.

I’ll accept the current data but also note continued Executive responsibility is not poll dependant.

Any current lack of attempted impeachment is a tactical decision by the Democrats. They have demonstrated with K-man that they will show no mercy. I’m sure it will come.

The current tsunami of ‘Orangeman bad’ is streets ahead of the birther nonsense.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2460

Post by Kirbmarc » Tue Jan 29, 2019 12:34 am

Brive1987 wrote: Fivethirtyeight have him at 40%.

The next election may well indicate a majority are unhappy with his approach. Until then his job is to get his elected Executive programme through Congress. Preferably in a manner that incites support. That’s the game. Why do you think I don’t know this game has ‘checks and balances’ to navigate. Losing support of one (or both) houses isn’t a directive to cease and desist. Obama is living proof of that.

I’ll accept the current data but also note continued Executive responsibility is not poll dependant.

Any current lack of attempted impeachment is a tactical decision by the Democrats. They have demonstrated with K-man that they will show no mercy. I’m sure it will come.

The current tsunami of ‘Orangeman bad’ is streets ahead of the birther nonsense.
The tactical decision by Democrats not to impeach Trump is, before the release of Muller's conclusions, a very sound one.

Trump has lost a lot of the support he tried to incite, and is unlikely to get his programme passed. Losing support might not be a directive to cease and desist, but it's a big hurdle. Obama passed ACA (arguably the most politically discussed decision of his administration) in 2010, when he had a majority in both houses. When he lost that majority he had much less of a wiggle room. Trump had the opportunity to pass laws for The Wall when he had a clear majority in both Houses. He blew it. Now he's tried to pass it through the threat of the shutdown. He blew it again. He's unlikely to get it done.

Obama was hounded by the American right for being a secret muslim, secretly born in Kenya, secretly a communist, etc. Distasteful as it might be, it's part of the game. The accusation towards Trump at least have more meat to them.

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