Lsuoma: What the Fuck Are You Doing?

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Lsuoma: What the Fuck Are You Doing?

#1

Post by John Greg »

You have done a lot of work setting this place up.

Thank you.

You are probably tired and rather stressed out with all that work.

Relax, and put your feet up. And thanks for the work.

You are probably a bit pissed off at how little thanks you got for it, and now, all of a sudden, you've got some mysterious "Them who won't be named" pissing all over your hearth telling you that Oooh Oooh someone said something I don't like!1!1. And so you are all in a worry-flurry worrying about legal issues, and the American heartland.

Well, take a load off your feet, put 'em up in front of the fire, and let nature take it's course, for a bit.

And thanks for all the work.

I say:

Let's stop scapegoating people we don't like. Scapegoating is something that FfTB does well.

Let's stop playing Chinese whispers about mystery people making mystery accusations. Chinese whispers is something FfTB does very well.

Let's stop arbitrarily dictating language. Arbitrarily dictating language is something FfTB does all too well.

Let's not close threads we don't like with the whistling snap of a crystal meth kneejerk. Closing threads is something that FfTB does all too well.

The slimepit was, and the Slyme Pit should be, about dialogue between adults, including teh bad werds. So franc throws in an other direction cunt kick. Ya, to some it is unpleasant, to others it is meaningless, and yes, the paranoids at FfTB might use it as some kind of ammunition, except you seem to have missed the critical difference in the direction it was going and who was doing the imaginary, fantastic, putative, not real kicking. All the difference in the world.

Let's be a little bit smarter, a little bit more open minded, a little bit more intellectually honest here. We do not need to protect Abbie here. And if someone as intelligent as Paula Kirby cannot understand the metaphorical, imaginary, not real rhetorical hyperbole of the latest version of the Oooh Forbidden Phraze, then perhaps she doesn't need our backing or we hers. Unless, of course, some Slyme People do in fact adhere to the paranoid delusions of Ophelia Benson, who does indeed give truly magical powers to words, both singularily, and in groups like terms and phrases. Ooh. Magic Words. Tremble in fear!

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Re: Lsuoma: What the Fuck Are You Doing?

#2

Post by Lsuoma »

Thanks, John, for your thoughts. See this post.

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Re: Lsuoma: What the Fuck Are You Doing?

#3

Post by John Greg »

I respect you Lsuoma, you've done a lot of work to get us all set up in a new home.

My thoughts were that the work of starting this place up was getting to you -- I know what that's like. Back in the late 90s I started up a bbs for gamers who were over 25 or older or somethinglike that. In a very short time it grew to several hundred members from all over the world, and before I knew it, almost everybody hated me. I ended up leaving my Baby, sniff, sniff, about a year or so after I started it up.

I learned a lot from that experience, perhaps the most important lesson being, in the first several months, let the place grow organically, so to speak. Let the disappointed people leave if they must; let the haters hate, as the baboons say. It takes time for a place like this to find its feet, even when it is intended as a sort of emulation of something that went before. Nothing that comes later can ever precisely duplicate something that came before. But we try. We try.

I know it would be very, very difficult for you, after all this is your baby, but I think you should literally take a couple of days off, maybe even a week, from modetating the bbs, and just participate as a voyeur and commenter. I doubt very, very much that anything that legally problematic will appear -- and I doubt very, very much that franc's latest use of the Phrase That Must be Obliterated will cause any legal concerns. Mind you, if it does, then we're all fucked because that means that the the concept of free speech has moved lock, stock, and fainting couch into room 101.

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Re: Lsuoma: What the Fuck Are You Doing?

#4

Post by decius »

Lsuoma did precisely what rational people do. When confronted with a topic they are unfamiliar with, they consult with an expert or get an education about it.

Instead of enjoying the new settings and do something fucking productive, like you know, not giving any more ammo to our detractors, Franc has decided to push envelopes and see again how far he can go.
That left me and others disappointed to say the least. We have already expressed, on ERV, our fundamental objection - by way of reasoned discourse that encountered no serious objections - to hateful language (a circumstance that makes us the haters, apparently).

Are you by chance an attorney, John? If so, please present a cogent argument that could reassure Lsuoma and inform him as to why he can just relax and fuck all. Vacuous appeals to free speech of the libertarian type are no substitute for legal competence.

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Re: Lsuoma: What the Fuck Are You Doing?

#5

Post by John Greg »

decius said:
Lsuoma did precisely what rational people do. When confronted with a topic they are unfamiliar with, they consult with an expert or get an education about it.
Okay, fine, agreed, somewhat. But Lsuoma did not inform us of what the lawyer's opinion was about the Dreadful Phraze. So, no secret cabals; no Chinese whispers, please.
Instead of enjoying the new settings and do something fucking productive, like you know, not giving any more ammo to our detractors, Franc has decided to push envelopes and see again how far he can go.
I disagree. Franc was being Franc. What he posted was not a threat in any way. It was a metaphor, an allusion to an imaginary act carried out in the past tense and presumptive future tense by Stefunny. I do not see how any educated and intelligent adult could misread it as anything else.
That left me and others who expressed, on ERV, their fundamental objection - by way of reasoned discourse that encountered no serious objections - to hateful language (a circumstance that makes us the haters, apparently).
Yes, but I argue that your defintion of "hateful language" seems to be pretty squishy. What specifically was "hateful" about Franc's comment? Was it the magic word? Was it the hyperbolic, metaphoric, and imaginary assumption that Stefunny likes to or has kicked women? What?
Are you by chance an attorney, John?
No.
If so, please present a cogent argument that could reassure Lsuoma and inform him as to why he can just relax and fuck all.
I did.
Vacuous appeals to free speech of the libertarian type are no substitute for legal competence.
Bafflegab and misrepresentation. You can and have done better, decius.

And as I said, if that particular instance of the Phrase of our Discontent is somehow illegal, or even problematic legally, then the paranoia of the American right wing has won, and even the thought-concept of freedom of speech has left the building and moved, lock, stock, and fainting couch into room 101.

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Re: Lsuoma: What the Fuck Are You Doing?

#6

Post by Phil_Giordana_FCD »

So, decius, basicaly you just wish to continue your guerila with Franc? As I said elsewhere, I thought this place was made so we could express ourselves freely, without causing any damage to Abbie. Why is it that suddenly, with this new PM power you just found, you want to silence others? Most of the people posting here have been posting at ERV's for more than a year regularily now, and here you arrive, after a few days of commenting at the Slimepit (original), and already wanting to impose your own views and prejudices.

That's not gonna work for me. If this place has to become asepticized, then I don't even see the point of leaving ERV in the first place.

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Re: Lsuoma: What the Fuck Are You Doing?

#7

Post by Za-zen »

Franc-ly i couldn't give a fuck about magic words, and the arbitrary nature of them. I also don't give a flying fuck for the argument that "we" need to enter the politicsl game of tone, in order to cater for others sensibilities, and to try to convince them of the validity of our point. Fuck politically correct assholes, and if the tone cause people to dismiss points, then fuck them too, cause they are the idiots that need to check their dogma, not me.

This is the first time i think i've stated my position on this.

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Re: Lsuoma: What the Fuck Are You Doing?

#8

Post by decius »

John, I've no intention to argue this all over again, so very briefly and just once, if possible.

You missed an earlier post by Franc, where he peddled a Zazzle button that read "I did X to Y and I survived", where X is in fact a felony in any country, not just the USA.

Then his second post reads something like "I know you really want me to do you X. I won't because I have no time at the moment", whereby X constitutes in fact assault.

To me that's little different than saying "that's a nice house you have there", which is also a metaphor, contains no directly stated intention to harm and yet people are routinely convicted over it.

Your interpretation differs. That's fine. Except, there's probably enough material there for an attorney to build a case for a judge to rule over which interpretation is more correct.

I'm no expert, but let me quote you this.
Intimidation (also called cowing) is intentional behavior that "would cause a person of ordinary sensibilities" fear of injury or harm. It's not necessary to prove that the behavior was so violent as to cause terror or that the victim was actually frightened...

There is no legal definition in English law as to what behavior constitutes "Intimidation", so it is up to the courts to decide on a case by case basis. However, if somebody threatens violence against somebody, then this may be a criminal offence...

Criminal threatening can be the result of verbal threats of violence, physical conduct (such as hand gestures or raised fists), actual physical contact, or even simply the placing of a sign,[7] an object or graffiti on the property of another person with the purpose of coercing or terrorizing...

"Terrorizing" generally means to cause alarm, fright, or dread in another person or inducing apprehension of violence from a hostile or threatening event, person or object. “It is not requisite, in order to constitute this crime, that personal violence should be committed
There is more under cyberbullying that you may not find relevant to this, but someone else could. Undoubtedly a case would be hard to prove, but just disentangling oneself from the accusation of such an ill-defined felony so open to interpretation would be a nightmare.

Then there's an ethical objection to such language. It is not part of rational discourse. I would be interested to know if you think otherwise.

Finally, Franc has opened his very cuntkick blog. All you fans could easily take that part there and stop embarrassing the rest of us.
Why can't you do just that? Why should your free-speech fundamentalism more important than real legal concerns for our host?
If there's no risk, why do you guys keep on laying it on other people's doorstep?

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Re: Lsuoma: What the Fuck Are You Doing?

#9

Post by decius »

Giordana, it isn't "guerrilla with Franc". It's an objection over an important matter, if you don't mind.

To answer your loaded question in any case. No, I have no such intention. I just want to know if a consensus can be reached that there are SOME limits. If not, I'll crawl back under the rock where I came from and we shall still be friends.

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Re: Lsuoma: What the Fuck Are You Doing?

#10

Post by Phil_Giordana_FCD »

decius wrote:Giordana, it isn't "guerrilla with Franc". It's an objection over an important matter, if you don't mind.

To answer your loaded question in any case. No, I have no such intention. I just want to know if a consensus can be reached that there are SOME limits. If not, I'll crawl back under the rock where I came from and we shall still be friends.
Decius: why should there be limits here when there weren't any at ERV's Slimepit? The only limits we ever had were the open, readable objections by commenters who didn't agree with X or Y, followed by meaningful debates. Worked like a charm, and it is what made the Slimepit way more interesting and invigorating than the other place.

If we start shooting out PM's to shut posters up, then there is no purpose to this forum at all. As Justicar said, we are adult enough to act as adults. If Franc says or posts something you don't like, just confront him in the open, don't just run to Lsuoma by PM to have him shut Franc up.

That's how things should be done, IMO, for total clarity, without backchannels and such.

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Re: Lsuoma: What the Fuck Are You Doing?

#11

Post by decius »

Phil, there are a couple of differences, as I see it. Abbie initially shared your views, true, then thought better of it. Part of the reason is that she understood the malignant nature of the opposition, which would stop at nothing (perhaps you'll agree to this).

Secondly, Franc today has escalated the rhetoric and pushed it a little closer to overt threat.

Thirdly, I confronted Franc openly, as you can see on the relevant threads. Lsuoma presumably can also read. Someone left in disgust and notified his reasons via PM. What's wrong with that?

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Re: Lsuoma: What the Fuck Are You Doing?

#12

Post by John Greg »

Abbie initially shared your views, true, then thought better of it. Part of the reason is that she understood the malignant nature of the opposition, which would stop at nothing (perhaps you'll agree to this).
I am fairly certain that you are not only putting words in Abbie's mouth, but that those words and the implications of her feelings and/or intent, which you assume, are not accurate.
Secondly, Franc today has escalated the rhetoric and pushed it a little closer to overt threat.
I see no threat. I repeat, I see no threat. I see a metaphoric allusion to an imaginary act carried out in the past and presumptive future tense by Zvan. I see no threat. Explain please, and you can easily do so without using any of the words you do not like, the specific promised/implied/suggested future action and/or statement of intent and purpose that is a threat?
Thirdly, I confronted Franc openly, as you can see on the relevant threads. Lsuoma presumably can also read. Someone left in disgust and notified his reasons via PM. What's wrong with that?
Because, ideally, we do not work through Chinese whispers or backchannels or complaints to a non-existent higher aithority. That's "what's wrong with that". Franc does not shoot people. Anyone can confront Franc directly, although they better work pretty hard on making a meaningful and logical argument, because that's something he really does specialize in.

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Re: Lsuoma: What the Fuck Are You Doing?

#13

Post by decius »

John, I don't think you addressed any of my important points, nor did you answer my direct questions. Moreover, I already granted that your interpretation differs and could be more correct than mine.
Please, take your time but do a fairer job, if possible.

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Re: Lsuoma: What the Fuck Are You Doing?

#14

Post by John Greg »

Huh?

I am, frankly, baffled.

So you better spell out in detail what I did not address or answer.

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Re: Lsuoma: What the Fuck Are You Doing?

#15

Post by Phil_Giordana_FCD »

decius wrote:Phil, there are a couple of differences, as I see it. Abbie initially shared your views, true, then thought better of it. Part of the reason is that she understood the malignant nature of the opposition, which would stop at nothing (perhaps you'll agree to this).

Secondly, Franc today has escalated the rhetoric and pushed it a little closer to overt threat.

Thirdly, I confronted Franc openly, as you can see on the relevant threads. Lsuoma presumably can also read. Someone left in disgust and notified his reasons via PM. What's wrong with that?
Would it be this thread: http://www.slymepit.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=10

Abbie has been sharing our views for a while, and still hasn't changed her stance. But, and it's very legitimate, she feared there might be financial repercusions if we continued playing it rough on her turf. Fine by me. As for the malignant nature of the opposition, there is nothing, nope, zip, zero, ziffre, you could ever do to stop them deforming and misconstruing whatever you say, wether polite or blatantly rude. No hope there.

Franc has his own way of using rhetorics. These often work as triggers that allow us to witness the utter silliness of the FC5 crew. Anyway, Franc can defend himself alright.

You never confronted Franc, you just called the waaaaabulance.

Franc posts a link to a pin, your answer? "You know, I'm truly fucking fed up with this nonsense. You can't just let go and do something productive and intelligent, can you?
You could, of course, but you wouldn't.

Fuck off, Hoggle. I mean it."

Then later: "I want that post/link removed ASAP. Or I'm out of this place, and all I brought comes with me.

Sorry, but I thought we had a deal as a community."

Then, the probably unhappy poster: "Agreed. Just PMed Lsuoma with my thoughts. I'm out of here.

Hoggle, you are a truly odious prick."

And that last piece from you: "That's the most precious piece of delusional writing I've come across in a long time.

Now you have removed it from there, and immediately escalated even further in another threat here.

You plainly want to us to leave in droves. So be it.

I for one, won't put up with your vile threats. I'm from the birthplace of mafia, I know how you bullies think and operate and can't possibly breathe your same air."

That's not confrontation, that's at best, special pleading, and at worst, emotional blackmail.

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Re: Lsuoma: What the Fuck Are You Doing?

#16

Post by Lsuoma »

John Greg wrote: I see no threat. I repeat, I see no threat. I see a metaphoric allusion to an imaginary act carried out in the past and presumptive future tense by Zvan. I see no threat. Explain please, and you can easily do so without using any of the words you do not like, the specific promised/implied/suggested future action and/or statement of intent and purpose that is a threat?
The opinion I have been given is that Franc's posting doesn't even come close to constituting a threat. I overreacted in locking the thread, and apologize for having done it. I hope I have set it right again.
Because, ideally, we do not work through Chinese whispers or backchannels or complaints to a non-existent higher aithority. That's "what's wrong with that". Franc does not shoot people. Anyone can confront Franc directly, although they better work pretty hard on making a meaningful and logical argument, because that's something he really does specialize in.
See the policy/guidelines/rules here.

I also believe I overreacted in this post.

Now that people understand how the Pit will function, they can choose to stay or go, participate or not, post or lurk.

Nobody is being forced to do anything they'd prefer not to...

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Re: Lsuoma: What the Fuck Are You Doing?

#17

Post by decius »

John Greg wrote:Huh?

I am, frankly, baffled.

So you better spell out in detail what I did not address or answer.
I guess you went straight to my reply to Phil and missed the one above to you.

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Re: Lsuoma: What the Fuck Are You Doing?

#18

Post by John Greg »

The opinion I have been given is that Franc's posting doesn't even come close to constituting a threat. I overreacted in locking the thread, and apologize for having done it. I hope I have set it right again.
Lsuoma, thanks for that. I was actually just about to post a request that you ask your legal advice to render an opinion.

Also, thanks for stating that you feel you overreacted. Bravo. I thought I had good reason to respect you.

And, as for myself, I am comfortable with your four guidelines. They make sense to me. And yes of course, if something comes up that puts you in any sort of legal jeopardy, you MUST take care of yourself first.

Bravo to you.

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Re: Lsuoma: What the Fuck Are You Doing?

#19

Post by John Greg »

decius you posted:
John, I don't think you addressed any of my important points, nor did you answer my direct questions. Moreover, I already granted that your interpretation differs and could be more correct than mine.
Please, take your time but do a fairer job, if possible.
So, yes, I am confused. What did I not address? What did I not answer? I must be missing something here.

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Re: Lsuoma: What the Fuck Are You Doing?

#20

Post by decius »

Abbie has been sharing our views for a while, and still hasn't changed her stance. But, and it's very legitimate, she feared there might be financial repercusions if we continued playing it rough on her turf. Fine by me. As for the malignant nature of the opposition, there is nothing, nope, zip, zero, ziffre, you could ever do to stop them deforming and misconstruing whatever you say, wether polite or blatantly rude. No hope there.
Please notice that deforming something innocuous doesn't pave their way to court, whereas veiled or ambiguous threats might.
You never confronted Franc, you just called the waaaaabulance.
That's one way to put it. But it didn't occur in a vacuum. I had been discussing this with him for quite some time, so he's perfectly familiar with my points.
On the other hand, he never feels the need to consult with anyone before fragging the place. So, why should he be granted rights he doesn't recognise in others?

Also, you attributed to me what other people (some of those who left in a huff) told him. Or do they have to ask Franc's or your permission in a formal debate before decide they had enough?

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Re: Lsuoma: What the Fuck Are You Doing?

#21

Post by John Greg »

???

I am lost.

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Re: Lsuoma: What the Fuck Are You Doing?

#22

Post by decius »

John, I believe some scrambling of post order occurred.

There's a long post addressed to you on this page, which you appear to have missed, for I see no mention of it anywhere in your posts.

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Re: Lsuoma: What the Fuck Are You Doing?

#23

Post by decius »

Folks, I need to hit the hay. Thanks for the convo. Tomorrow I'll be very busy with my work, so I might reply later than that. Till then, take care.

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Re: Lsuoma: What the Fuck Are You Doing?

#24

Post by John Greg »

scrollscrollscroll ... Sheesh, you coulda linked to it. My scroll finger hurts. Call the blog poolice, decius assaulted my scroll finger! I jest, I jest.

Oh, yes, I see. I did miss that post. Ok ... readreadread.

decius said:
he peddled a Zazzle button that read "I did X to Y and I survived", where X is in fact a felony in any country, not just the USA.
Um, okay, well, without knowing what "X" or "Y" is, it's pretty darn hard to state an opinion, I've done lots and lots of X's to various Y's, but, well, okay. But, even so, peddling buttons is a threat? Really? Wow. Where do you live?
To me that's little different than saying "that's a nice house you have there", which is also a metaphor, contains no directly stated intention to harm and yet people are routinely convicted over it.
WTF? Convicted over saying you have a nice house?!? What the fuck are you talking about?
I'm no expert, but let me quote you this:....
Again, selling or promoting buttons is intimidation? A threat? A crime? decius, what the fuck?!?
Then there's an ethical objection to such language. It is not part of rational discourse. I would be interested to know if you think otherwise.
Huh, what language is not part of rational discourse? Who the fuck gets to make blanket definitions of what is or is not part of rational discourse? Who the fuck are you decius? The King High Poobah of rational fucking discourse? I thought that was PeeZus's job.

I do not see much evidence of you being rational decious, I really don't.
Finally, Franc has opened his very cuntkick blog. All you fans could easily take that part there and stop embarrassing the rest of us.
Why can't you do just that? Why should your free-speech fundamentalism more important than real legal concerns for our host?
If there's no risk, why do you guys keep on laying it on other people's doorstep?
Wha? Now you have completely lost me. I truly do not know what the fuck you are talking about. I really don't

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Re: Lsuoma: What the Fuck Are You Doing?

#25

Post by Johann the Cabbie »

I'm really curious about the button. I'm dying to know what it said. I bet I'd get a good laugh. Hoggle's a funny guy.

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Re: Lsuoma: What the Fuck Are You Doing?

#26

Post by DW Adams »

What have I stumbled into...?

Locked