Periodic Table of Swearing

[real horrorshow]

Okay I should clarify. Anita's views are open to criticism just like anyone's so criticising her views are not sexist or whatever. So that's out of the way. However, I do have a beef with people who shove their opinion in somebody else's face. That can be harrassment and/or sexist. If you don't like what I post you can reply to me, disagree with me or whatever.

What has Sarkeesian done but shove her opinion in the face of gamers and the gaming industry? When you make videos and blog posts and give interviews and conference talks that you know, in advance, some people are going to vehemently disagree with. It is just stupid to be surprised when that disagreement is expressed.

But you can't repeatedly email me random bullshit. That's harrassment.

Really? People e-mail me random bullshit all the time. It's not harassment, it's spam. Ad breaks in TV shows, the torrent of glossy leaflets that fall out of every magazine all spam, but not harassment. If you mean the stuff that's sent to Sarkeesian specifically in response to the opinions she's expressed, I would estimate that it falls into two categories:
1. People expressing their views on the issues she has raised - which they are perfectly entitled to do.
2. The usual crap from the usual idiots that everyone who makes themselves conspicuous on-line gets - unfortunate but, like spam, inevitable.

So, Anita's views are open to criticism and some of it is valid but some of the hostile reaction is becaues she is a woman. Of course, it is possible her "sexist detector" is kind of biased and is giving her a lot of false positives.

I willingly concede that their are some people who hate women and some of Sarkeesian's critics may fall into that category. Also, as has been mentioned here several times, trolls use what they think will work. Guys get insults about their masculinity and potency. Girls get rape references and attacks on their appearance. So she's getting some kinds of hostile reaction because she's a woman, but the volume of reaction she's getting just reflects how unpopular her views are. A man would get different insults, but just as many, for saying the same things. Finally, some of the sexualised abuse she's getting, is probably because she's seen as being anti-sex.

[Phil_Giordana_FCD]

I can't remember if it was here or on FB's Anti-A+ page that I was discussing my Bailey's hangover and subsequent aversion to the stuff, but, just sayin':

http://sphotos-e.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-a ... 2593_n.jpg

[Steersman]

Steers, it seems you are effectively slipping into oolon territory here.

Oh, oh. Full speed astern, Mr. Sulu. :-)

We've had this talk before, many times.

And it came around on the gui-tar again because Rystefn restated “conventional wisdom” which I remain somewhat skeptical of. But sorry for the delay in responding to your post – I’ve had to rewrite it a couple of times and it’s still incomplete. However, it seems that the question – generally sexism versus racism – is a rather complex one which I don’t really have a particularly good handle on. And it is also one that is compounded by issues of human psychology and the mechanisms of language as well as by questions on the degree to which various epithets are justified in civil discourse and the degree to which any particular group and members thereof are “deserving” of public criticism or opprobrium.

For instance, relative to the last aspect, one might reasonably argue that all members of the class “rapists” are deserving of that opprobrium while it might arguably be less true for “NAMBLA-ists” or zoophilists or “incest-ists” [the family that lays together stays together; one should do everything in life at least once - with the possible exceptions of folk-dancing and incest ….]. However, when we get to the classes, “blacks”, “homosexuals”, “women” or “men”, for examples, claims that all members are somehow inferior or reprehensible simply for being members of those classes are quite justifiably met by shock and anger.

But targetting individuals in those classes, even by pointing or alluding to various attributes? That seems to be quite a bit more of a sticky wicket. For instance, several here have used words such as “spic”, “wop”, “kike”, “faggot” and the like to describe themselves and/or others without those in any way carrying pejorative connotations. Reminds me of a case here in Canada some time ago when a Ukrainian man – a group which had historically been targetted with the epithet “hunky” – wanted to open a restaurant named “Hunky Bill’s”. Which of course had the fainting-couch brigade out in full force.

But I think the point is that making words verboten – rather than some “principles” in whose service they might be used – tends to be counterproductive. I wonder what Hitchens might have had to say on the topic.

However, to briefly address some of your other comments or questions:

Rystefn is right: either they're full of shit (my personal choice) or they're misogynists. Why won't Benson condemn Minchin and Rhys if she trully believes what she preaches (that "cunt" and "twat" are always sexist, even though she seems to use these words more than any of us here)?

In passing, I wonder if you have any evidence that she “uses those words more than any of us here”. If you’re referring to that post of franc’s, then I would say that doesn’t really hold a lot of water as at least his initial quotes of Ophelia aren’t cases of her calling someone those words but of her describing or paraphrasing other people directing those epithets towards third parties:

Ah well now that really is blunt. Thank you. Now we know where we are. If you “can’t handle” being called a fucking cunt, then stop writing.

Although I will agree that many over there, Benson in particular, have a very problematic tendency to a “my country, my tribe: right or wrong” type of thinking. Although I’ve noted a few examples of that in this neck of the woods too.

But you also asked, “Are you really buying their bullshit? Do you really think they are being sincere?” And to answer them briefly I would say that I’m not buying all of it – less so these days, but think that generally many of them are being sincere – probably just as sincere as most here. But I think the problem, at least the superficial one, is that sincerity is no guarantee of being right even if it isn’t being feigned. As people like the biologist Robert Trivers and Richard Feynman have noted, people are remarkably adept at fooling themselves or misinterpreting facts, frequently in a flattering or self-aggrandizing way. Along which line you might be interested in Michael Shermer’s The Believing Brain.

[Scented Nectar]

There are already plenty of men who feel ashamed that being dominant and rough turns them on because they are made to feel ashamed by society, which has succeeded in convincing them that not only is something wrong with them for being sexually aroused by this, but that women, like children, cannot give consent
I'm just glad that I got to experience everything I wanted to try (at least twice) when I was younger, now I want less physical dominance, and more psychological, so I very rarely have any "evidence" left after a particularly enjoyable evening, and I'm very glad that my age preference in men is mid to late 50's, because elder men with more experience are able to read women a hell of a lot better, choose a hell of a lot better, and the men I'm attracted to, not only have a good idea of what sort of person I will be after, but know precisely what will interest me, long before our clothes are shed, and if they ever had any shame about what they like, they lost it years before they met me.

My bold etc. You realize don't you, that you just gave PZ a raging boner?

That is IF, in that video of PZ making poker sex jokes, he was overdoing it pretending the opposite, saying he would submit to having sex with the volunteer. Maybe his real inclinations are quite the opposite to "submitting", and he's all ashamed and extra feminist because of it?

PZ is a submissive/masochist. There is not a chance in hell he can be dominant sexually.

I have lousy radar for other people's sexual leanings, so I'm going with your opinion. I suspect your radar works better than mine.

[Scented Nectar]

So, er, Physioprof pitches in:

http://freethoughtblogs.com/physioprof/ ... -feminist/

Seriously, what the fuck is up with this guy? Why does he add extra letters to words? Why does he end most words with an e? :?:

Maybe he's trying to erase some of his elitist prep school arsewad privilege with regressive spelling. TBH, I find his motivations to be about as intriguing as those of the 2-cm cockroach that was hanging out on the wall of one of the stairwells at work this morning.

I don't think it's good that Greg is hanging out in your workplace stairwell, bothering you at work like that. I'll bet that once you weren't looking, he went straight to your boss tattle-taling in hopes they would give you shit for using bad words during your off-work time.

[Scented Nectar]

Hey everyone! It's been almost a week since I last posted. I had been feeling sick and I thought it was just the flu. Well, it turns out that I am pregnant. My husband is ecstatic.

Do you know whose it is?

I grew up with jokes about whether I looked more like the Sears delivery guy or the mailman.

Oh groaner joke warning!

A couple are expecting a baby. The doctor says he has new technology that, if they want, can transfer some of the labour pains to the father. They say yes, and as labour begins the father hooks himself up to the machine. The button is pressed and she feels a lot less pain. He says "this is nothing, doesn't hurt at all", so the doctor switches it all the way so that the father gets all the pain. She starts to feel no pain at all. He says "still nothing" and they go on to have a delivery totally free of pain for either of them. Coming home, on their front step, they discover their mailman, passed out from pain.

Well, I did warn you all that it was a groaner. :doh:

[Trophy]

Really? People e-mail me random bullshit all the time. It's not harassment, it's spam. Ad breaks in TV shows, the torrent of glossy leaflets that fall out of every magazine all spam, but not harassment. If you mean the stuff that's sent to Sarkeesian specifically in response to the opinions she's expressed, I would estimate that it falls into two categories:
1. People expressing their views on the issues she has raised - which they are perfectly entitled to do.
2. The usual crap from the usual idiots that everyone who makes themselves conspicuous on-line gets - unfortunate but, like spam, inevitable.

If you send me emails that contain offensive material directed at me, and the goal is to annoy me, or disturb me and it's obvious that there's no "good faith", then you are harrassing and in many places it is actually a criminal activity. Sending me photoshopped pornographics images of me clearly falls into that category and can be prosecuted by law. AGAIN THIS DOES NOT APPLY TO PEOPLE EXPRESSING THEIR OPINIONS GODDAMNED IT.

[Trophy]

On other news:

most of the women here [pharyngula] are not skepchicks, and have in fact on occasion been critical of that particular name, yes.

I really don't need to further comment on this, do I? But a certain individual wearing a T-shirt comes into mind hmmm :D.

[cunt]

He says in the original video that you should not talk this way to your students. Admits its a bad idea. Why is that, if they are over 18?

Huh? It's a bad idea because of power differential. Teacher:student. Age has nothing to do with it.

He knows that, he got busted and he is making every excuse possible.

Busted doing what? Making a bunch of shit jokes? Having zero comic timing? Sorry but that video was lame.

[Mykeru]

Back in the day when I was still commenting on pharyngula, I had an argument with one of those ideologues because she was claiming that "Women don't like it when guys do X" (I don't remember what exactly it was). When I told her I'm pretty sure I can find many women who say they like it when guys do X (and I gave her a few blogs where women said why they like it when guys do X). Then I mentioned that it is better to rephrase the beginning to "Most women don't like it" or the better "Some women don't like it" or even the best "I don't like it". I think she blinked a few times and then replied back "Women don't like it when guys do X!"

Yeah, well, the tendency for these sort of cranial-anal insertion types to universalize their own neurosis, from "we speak for all women" right down to "I speak for all women" is just moving from organisational to individual narcissism.

Which makes NAFALTing and NAWALTing just that much more funny when they pull it.

[Keating]

If you send me emails that contain offensive material directed at me, and the goal is to annoy me, or disturb me and it's obvious that there's no "good faith", then you are harrassing and in many places it is actually a criminal activity. Sending me photoshopped pornographics images of me clearly falls into that category and can be prosecuted by law. AGAIN THIS DOES NOT APPLY TO PEOPLE EXPRESSING THEIR OPINIONS GODDAMNED IT.

I agree with you. I think the problem here is that the presence of such harassment also causes legitimate criticism to be easily dismissed. This annoys the people who went to the effort of thinking through their argument and writing up objections, as their efforts are ignored as "harassment" and "trolls". This creates an atmosphere where it appears that disagreeing with a woman is synonymous with misogyny.

I think there is certainly a group of people, probably largely men, who do actively engage in harassment of women, especially when those women happen to disagree with them. It should go without saying that this is a bad thing. It is somewhat a product of the nature of the way the Internet works.

I think that much legitimate criticism is unfairly dismissed because of this. I also think some feminists do somewhat deliberately play this up to avoid having to answer the legitimate criticism.

One of the differences of opinion in the Great Atheist Schism seem to be about how to handle this. Should bad ideas be given a pass because some people harass the people who say them?

[sacha]

I guess on this point we can agree to disagree. And of course, there's really no way to test it. Even if we could rewind the time and have her video be made by a guy, probably just because of that difference the videol would not have been popular.

So basically, I still think some of the hostile reaction (and not the criticism) is because she is a woman but also because she is an outsider to the gaming community which is again, highly correlated with her being a woman.

Just as a thought experiment, imagine this.

I decide to critique the beauty pageant world. I'm nearly a complete outsider to it, though I do have some cursory knowledge from popular culture and some hands on knowledge because my daughter participated briefly in a circuit when she was younger.

I make a series of videos pointing out how sexist beauty pageants are to men. I do this by fitting every observation into a rubric of overall misandry towards men. Beauty pageants appeal to our basest desires. They teach men that they should desire the unobtainable. They teach men X. They teach men Y. Men are only used as props...as announcers or stylists, while the women get all the glory.

After a series of these videos, I start a Kickstarter campaign and to ask for money so I can continue my "research," which will entail traveling several beauty pageant circles, buying and watching every Miss America Pageant since its inception, etc, etc, etc...

I will then take the *ABSOLUTELY PREDICTABLE* invective I will get from the beauty pageant world and use it as proof that they all hate men. I will show every sexist comment (and believe me, there will be thousands of them) as proof as to why this "research" is needed. I will block and delete any reasonable disagreement made against my position so only the most egregious troll comments are shown.

Then, after a period of time, I will just ignore my backers as they continually ask what I'm doing with all the money they gave me. In fact, I will use that as *further evidence* of misandry, regardless if the invective is coming from women or men.

Yeah. That would TOTALLY go over well.

well done, John Brown

[Phil_Giordana_FCD]

In passing, I wonder if you have any evidence that she “uses those words more than any of us here”. If you’re referring to that post of franc’s, then I would say that doesn’t really hold a lot of water as at least his initial quotes of Ophelia aren’t cases of her calling someone those words but of her describing or paraphrasing other people directing those epithets towards third parties:

I never said she was calling anyone those words, just that she seems to write them (in quotes or otherwise) a lot more than anyone here, which is to me a clear indication of her martyrdom syndrome.

Feel free to disagree.

See if I care.

[Scented Nectar]

Busted doing what? Making a bunch of shit jokes? Having zero comic timing? Sorry but that video was lame.

Busted doing the very thing he preaches against.

[rayshul]

Read that weird feminist ramble from A+ ... I'm glad the A+ers can scramble out of their safe holes for long enough to recognise pure nuttiness. Feminism eh.

Perfectly acceptable, I think, to be aware of those stereotypes which frequently have more than a little justification or truth to them - it is simply a matter of fact that there are more female grade-school teachers than males; that there are more males than females in the A/S cohort; that there are, apparently, more male than female Pharnygulites ("sexists!"). But not acceptable to be limiting civil rights or opportunities on the basis of them. Unfortunately many including Benson have a tendency to conflate those two aspects which is a problem in itself.

But the quoting of the various phrases is a little problematic - in some cases it is a literal quote of what someone said, at other times it seems to point to some questionable interpretations of them - both pro and con.

I think I'm with you on that.

[franc]

In passing, I wonder if you have any evidence that she “uses those words more than any of us here”. If you’re referring to that post of franc’s, then I would say that doesn’t really hold a lot of water as at least his initial quotes of Ophelia aren’t cases of her calling someone those words but of her describing or paraphrasing other people directing those epithets towards third parties:

I never said she was calling anyone those words, just that she seems to write them (in quotes or otherwise) a lot more than anyone here, which is to me a clear indication of her martyrdom syndrome.

Refer Project Prune Grep -

http://greylining.com/2012/11/20/project-prune-grep/

[sacha]

franc, that's two recent posts where it could be argued that you've added a smilie... if we define it as one of those yellow balls with an emotive face. Are you changing your mind about them?

There are a few he likes as long as they are used sparingly, and there is something either dark humoured or sexual about them.

he's quite fond of the Goatse emoticon...

and yes, I thought I'd speak for Franc as if he was unable to read and respond.

[Phil_Giordana_FCD]

Seems like Laden has deleted his ridiculous FB comments on Derek Colanduno's post. Shame about those screencaps from earlier, though...

[sacha]

PZ is a submissive/masochist. There is not a chance in hell he can be dominant sexually.

Speaking of which, how'd you like a ride on my bully pulpit, baby?

only if there is a crowd watching

[sacha]

Too funny not to share. This just happened
http://i.imgur.com/kdcAB.png

brilliant

[Scented Nectar]

Remember that symmetry feature that the old Amiga-ported-to-DOS Deluxe paint? Well, years ago, these two needlepoints (arrgh, run for the hills! girl thing!) resulted from using the symmetry feature. Never got around to stretching or framing them, so they are a bit askew.

http://www.scentednectar.com/slimepit/0 ... raphic.gif http://www.scentednectar.com/slimepit/00008-001-512.png

http://www.scentednectar.com/slimepit/0 ... raphic.gif http://www.scentednectar.com/slimepit/00008-002-512.png

I have over 1700 free needlepoint designs, including some like these (but better; these were my first few designs), but they are down right now. I'm trying to convert all the .doc versions of the patterns to html because not everyone has Microsoft Word. None of the batch conversion programs I've tried so far work right on them either screwing with the formatting (which is not a complex one), or totally trashing the results.

I use a unique system for my patterns; sequential form of counted stitching, where there is a separate page for each added colour. The pattern always looks like the stage you're working on, with no future colours getting in the way (that can be especially confusing if your colours are similar in color or shade), but with already done colours showing, just like on your canvas.

[franc]

In passing, I wonder if you have any evidence that she “uses those words more than any of us here”. If you’re referring to that post of franc’s, then I would say that doesn’t really hold a lot of water as at least his initial quotes of Ophelia aren’t cases of her calling someone those words but of her describing or paraphrasing other people directing those epithets towards third parties:

I never said she was calling anyone those words, just that she seems to write them (in quotes or otherwise) a lot more than anyone here, which is to me a clear indication of her martyrdom syndrome.

No wonder I didn't see who you were quoting. Steers-"hold my dick while I pee"-man, who has never made any kind of effort to verify anything for himself, ever, instead expecting nice guys like you to do it all for him. Now I remember why I have him on ignore. Fucking moron. LOOK IT UP FOR YOURSELF YOU CRIPPLE. Instead of derailing with the same lame questions that have been addressed a gazillion times before. Fucking dead weight loser.

[Scented Nectar]

PZ is a submissive/masochist. There is not a chance in hell he can be dominant sexually.

Speaking of which, how'd you like a ride on my bully pulpit, baby?

only if there is a crowd watching

Oh why not, I'm in. I'll watch.

[franc]

franc, that's two recent posts where it could be argued that you've added a smilie... if we define it as one of those yellow balls with an emotive face. Are you changing your mind about them?

There are a few he likes as long as they are used sparingly, and there is something either dark humoured or sexual about them.

he's quite fond of the Goatse emoticon...

and yes, I thought I'd speak for Franc as if he was unable to read and respond.

Yes, I was too busy to logout and back in as myself.

[sacha]

Meanwhile, over at Butthurt & Whingeing:

Isn’t that great? Needlepoint is a girl thing, atheism is a guy thing. Nothing sexist about that! Nothing to see here folks, go on home, take your needlepoint with you.

<snip quote from Justin Vacula>

Apparently Vacula is completely unaware of the many reports of vicious sexism in gaming, and just can’t imagine why WoW attracts a male population. Just one of those quirky things – guys like World of Warcraft, women don’t like being told “tits or GTFO” – isn’t life mysterious and fascinating.
One of the reasons – only one – what Shermer said was so wrongheaded is the fact that it treats the current situation as something that just happened, randomly, somehow, probably because guys do guy things and women do women things. The reality is that the current situation happened partly because women kept being ignored. Women didn’t get invited to speak at conferences, women didn’t get talked to or about, women didn’t get listened to. That situation is improving now, but it’s just clueless to look around vaguely and say “hmm, not many women around,” and conclude that that’s because “it’s a guy thing.”

I'll be the first to admit that I think the (over)reaction to Shermer's statement about the atheist community is ridiculous, and redolent of people who have too much privilege, self-absorption, and time to do anything and everything except actual productive work, but can we stop referring to "guy things" and "girl things" please? Whatever the intent, it has the flavor of oversimplified thinking, and the terminology is reminiscent of one of those annoying 1950s musicals set in some dead-boring US town.

I can't speak for anyone else, but as a straight cis-gendered woman, my life cannot be categorized in terms of "guy things" and "girl things." Nothing I do works in those terms: not research, not teaching, none of my hobbies (knitting, spinning, art journaling, gardening), not my running club, not the equestrian activities, nothing that my students excel or fail at, none of the university committees, none of the community volunteering ... nothing. Nada. Nichts.

It's only the feminist SJWs that do derogatory stereotypical "girl things". They think the world revolves around them, think they can speak for all women, think every man wants them (which is why they are unable to leave the house without "harassment"), they get hysterical over perceived slights, create drama in order to get attention, play the "poor me" card...

I could go on and on

[Scented Nectar]

Actually, thinking it over, I should convert the .doc's to .pdf's, since everyone has free pdf reading software, and it's more compatible to printing separate pages than htms. Off I go to see if the programs can do that conversion right (not infected type of converted!).

[Phil_Giordana_FCD]

In passing, I wonder if you have any evidence that she “uses those words more than any of us here”. If you’re referring to that post of franc’s, then I would say that doesn’t really hold a lot of water as at least his initial quotes of Ophelia aren’t cases of her calling someone those words but of her describing or paraphrasing other people directing those epithets towards third parties:

I never said she was calling anyone those words, just that she seems to write them (in quotes or otherwise) a lot more than anyone here, which is to me a clear indication of her martyrdom syndrome.

No wonder I didn't see who you were quoting. Steers-"hold my dick while I pee"-man, who has never made any kind of effort to verify anything for himself, ever, instead expecting nice guys like you to do it all for him. Now I remember why I have him on ignore. Fucking moron. LOOK IT UP FOR YOURSELF YOU CRIPPLE. Instead of derailing with the same lame questions that have been addressed a gazillion times before. Fucking dead weight loser.

Yeah, sorry for not indicating who I was quoting. My bad. Steerscunt (hey, it's Friday and lunchtime here, we had an agreement, Steers! Also, tomorrow is the Hitch's death first anniversary, so fuck off if you are vexed!)) did link to your article. Sadly he doesn't seem to have understood either the article or what I was talking about when refering to Benson and the instances of "cunt".

[Dick Strawkins]

Busted doing what? Making a bunch of shit jokes? Having zero comic timing? Sorry but that video was lame.

Busted doing the very thing he preaches against.

I almpst feel sorry for Peezus with this one.
That video was shot in late 2010. It wasn't until 8 months later at Elevatorgate that he became a lifelong feminist.

Was it sexist behavior?
That question is rather subjective.
In terms of adult, sex positive humor, it's more a case of a lack of comedic ability that outright sexism.
On the other hand feminism has two major strands, the sex positives (for example Greta Christina) and the sex negavitives (Ophelia, Taslima, skeptifem, etc)
In terms of sex negative feminism what Peezus did was a huge error.
They will look on this video and see it in a completely different light than the sex positives.
Sex negatives, as the name implies, will view any assumption of sex (and in particular heterosexual sex) as being potentially violating towards the wishes and feelings of the woman (the 'victim' in this case) - even if it is done in jest. They do not have a sense of humor about this subject.
For example they will ask: "What if this woman was a survivor of sexual assault? Wouldn't joking about having sex with her (and without asking permission) be triggering of her memories of her prior assault?"
They will also ask: "Would Peezus have made the same joke if it was a man who volunteered rather than a woman?"
I would suggest that these are reasonable objections - it is potentially distressing for someone to be joked about in a sexual manner, and, despite his supposed liberal views, it's hard to imagine that Peezus would make the same jokes with a man on stage - even a man he knew, like Laden - because these types of jokes he was aiming for are pretty much the tropes of college sex-positive, fratty humor.
In fact one of the major objections of the sex negatives towards skeptical meetings has been the 'fratboy' atmosphere of the meetings - and whatever you thought of the sexist or not sexist aspect of Peezus 'jokes', there is a clear 'fratboy' element to them that will have disgusted the sex negatives.
In fact you can tell that Ophelia is annoyed by it because she is doing exactly what she always does whenever someone on her side is exposed as a hypocrite.
She is absolutely ignoring the entire matter.
She has time for Justin Vaculas stupid comments (sorry Justin, but you made an arse of yourself with that needlework comment) but no time for explaining why Peezus wasn't sexist.
Her habit of doing this (picking up on any minor borderline transgression and writing a series of posts about it, but sticking her fingers in her ears, closing her eyes and going la-la-la, whenever one of her own side fucks up) is such a feature of her writing these days that you can use it as a reliable test of whether any particular action is seen as sexist to the sex negatives. A prime example is in the Mark Zuckerberg "I'm CEO, Bitch." post. Someone in the comments posted a link to the Peezus "It works, bitches" post and asked it Ophelia would like to criticize the sexism there too.
What do you think happened?
Ophelia: "Yes, that's sexist too but thankfully PZ has changed since then.
or
Straight down the memory hole.

By the way, back to the question of whether the action of Peezuz was sexist, does anyone have any question what the pharyngula horde - who now see no problem whatsoever of that behavior- would be saying if it wasn't Peezus up there making sex jokes, but was, in fact, Michael Shermer, Richard Dawkins or Sam Harris?

[AnonymousCowherd]

However, for what I think is a rather cogent synopsis of that general problem you might be interested in this newspaper article which profiles Steve Pinker’s The Blank Slate and which makes this salient observation:

That’s why people don’t touch taboos; yet as Pinker argued in the book, the great taboo of today is that of human nature and the blank slate is a sacred doctrine. Despite the book's impact, 10 years later the blank-slate model of human nature is still routinely discussed as fact, rather than fantasy, and continues to have serious implications for society ….

I gave up on Pinker after reading "The Language Instinct" and seeing a few interviews with him, partly because I took a personal dislike to him and partly because I thought he was overstating things re psycholinguistics. I may give the "Blank Slate" book a look, but if the article you link to is an accurate reflection of it's argument, I think Pinker is overstating, and oversimplifying, things again. For example, the idea of the "blank slate" doesn't have to have anything to to with nature/nuture - you can, in theory, be born "blank" and "grow" ability via developmental processes, "rational" (as distinct from empirical) sources, or divine bloody intervention.

Even back in the 70's the simplistic "nature vs nuture" distinction was seen as something of a furphy, at least by anybody that read stuff other than the Daily Worker. The Right wanted everyone to know their defined place and the Left wanted to think anybody could be made into anything. What they had in common was the belief that "changeability" was the issue - if everything was "socially" determined then everyone can be a revolutionary as soon as you create a revolution around them. Stalin even (supposedly) called writers the "engineers of human souls" - PZ wishes!The Right were worried that that might be correct, and were determined to keep the hoi polloi in line by emphasising "breeding", etc.

Any actual research and theory building going on at the time and during much of the 80's often incorporated a lot of the nuances in the debate, but the psych stuff tended to be unaware of much biology though, in fairness, this was mainly because there was less to be aware of - a lot of the advances in genetics hadn't taken place yet. Psych now seems to have done it's usual thing of glomming on to some idea that looks like a winner, and is now into "evolution" (or psych's version of it anyway). We'll have to wait to see how that works out, but I don't trust psychologists not to stuff it up, or not to trip gaily into the next intellectual fashion when they get bored with not solving any actual psych problems.

Still, I haven't paid much attention to this stuff for some years, and a lot of the hard heads I knew at universities up and left in disgust, so maybe academic debate has decline in the way Pinker claims. If so, shut to gates and shovel the lazy slackers into the nearest burger flipping palace - at least they'll be of some use there.

[DW Adams]

Getting back to Gaming for a moment.

My internet connection and my video speed don't always see eye-to-eye when I'm playing Everquest. Sometimes I log in and my video takes a few seconds to catch up and render all the pixels.

slow rendering = nakedness!

http://atheiststoday.com/images/dw_adam ... player.jpg

[rayshul]

I can't speak for anyone else, but as a straight cis-gendered woman, my life cannot be categorized in terms of "guy things" and "girl things." Nothing I do works in those terms: not research, not teaching, none of my hobbies (knitting, spinning, art journaling, gardening), not my running club, not the equestrian activities, nothing that my students excel or fail at, none of the university committees, none of the community volunteering ... nothing. Nada. Nichts.

It's only the feminist SJWs that do derogatory stereotypical "girl things". They think the world revolves around them, think they can speak for all women, think every man wants them (which is why they are unable to leave the house without "harassment"), they get hysterical over perceived slights, create drama in order to get attention, play the "poor me" card...

I could go on and on

SJW women I've noticed get mighty out of shape when you discover that in their view you do more "man things"... so are therefore in their heads a better feminist than them. It's a bit fucken mental.

I kinda think "girl things" is like "chick flicks" - they're stuff that either has been seen as "girl stuff" in the past or stuff that's marketed mainly to women. Which I don't have a problem with, it all feels kinda arbitrary generally at this point.

[franc]

Yeah, sorry for not indicating who I was quoting. My bad. Steerscunt (hey, it's Friday and lunchtime here, we had an agreement, Steers! Also, tomorrow is the Hitch's death first anniversary, so fuck off if you are vexed!)) did link to your article. Sadly he doesn't seem to have understood either the article or what I was talking about when refering to Benson and the instances of "cunt".

Your patience in dealing with him is amazing. Here's the stupid-proof graphic -

http://i.imgur.com/kmcxb.png

Of course, if Steersman had any dignity or self-respect, he could have found it himself in next to no time.

[sacha]

Incidentally, Justin, you fucking better be Horde. Just because.

Ahahahahaha!

Most of my toons were Alliance but I also had some Horde because some Alliance really just needed to be killed and their body camped.

For fun I would sometimes kill all the auctioneers in Stormwind on my Belf Pally. Then get on my Alliance Pally and do the same to the bankers in Orgrimmar. Good times!

Playing EQ2 now because I got tired to having to L2P every two years among other things (have to admit that I sometimes miss the PVP though).

Fuck knows what you wierdos are talking about.

hahaha! I haven't a clue either

[rayshul]

For some reason my post has made me want to look up men in kilts. I'm sure there was a reason for that - something about women and men having the wrong clothing shapes marketed to them and changing fads in what is male and what is female and how in the end it's all silly but it could also be because I dig men in skirts.

http://kiltme.typepad.com/.a/6a00d83454 ... 970c-800wi

It's 1:41 am and I am not feeling bright.

[AnonymousCowherd]

Hey everyone! It's been almost a week since I last posted. I had been feeling sick and I thought it was just the flu. Well, it turns out that I am pregnant. My husband is ecstatic.

Do you know whose it is?

No, but if you hum a few bars...


Congrats, fascination.

[sacha]

I'd already screencapped a few of Tony's brilliant moments...

He is spot on with this: They are the antithesis of what Phayrngula–and FtB at large–stands for.

[DataNotDogma]

Today's A+ gem. So long, poorly-written and demented that even a moderator is bemused.

from linked thread:

himeroyal, i read that you are not the author of the post you made. I'm not comfortable with that. i would rather the author posted this. message. people are. already. responding to you as if you. wrote it, but you did not.

Is. That. A. Bug. or common. spell check/ios thing. Or does he. not know. how to use. punctuation. question?

Anyway while reading old posts here I came across the Che thread on A+. I was very amused that it ended in not anyone talking about the crimes of Che but the tone in which Che was criticized. How do they get anything done? "while you raise good points, you raise them in the wrong way...." do they even skeptic? (sorry for abuse of meme)

[Phil_Giordana_FCD]

Oh, right: Fascination, congrats, I hope all goes well.

[Cunning Punt]

So, er, Physioprof pitches in:

http://freethoughtblogs.com/physioprof/ ... -feminist/

Seriously, what the fuck is up with this guy? Why does he add extra letters to words? Why does he end most words with an e? :?:

So.. let me see if I get this straight: women aren't walking vagina vending machines? I had no idea! Thank you for edumacating me, comrade!

[Dick Strawkins]

So, er, Physioprof pitches in:

http://freethoughtblogs.com/physioprof/ ... -feminist/

Seriously, what the fuck is up with this guy? Why does he add extra letters to words? Why does he end most words with an e? :?:

I can never read more than a sentence of his 'writing' before I start to wonder when Grendel is going to appear.

[DataNotDogma]

Today's A+ gem. So long, poorly-written and demented that even a moderator is bemused.

from linked thread:

himeroyal, i read that you are not the author of the post you made. I'm not comfortable with that. i would rather the author posted this. message. people are. already. responding to you as if you. wrote it, but you did not.

Is. That. A. Bug. or common. spell check/ios thing. Or does he. not know. how to use. punctuation. question?

missed this part:
"Sent from my Nexus S using Tapatalk 2"
Oh. Never mind. Speech to text still sucks I guess.

[real horrorshow]

[youtube]LkCNJRfSZBU[youtube]

I find that hilarious, but what puzzles me is that the plan was screwed as soon as Leeroy rushed in. So why the hell did the others follow him? It sounded like they were only taking the fight on to get something for Leeroy anyway. If he's going to piss on his chips like that I'd go and find something else to do.

I will say however: "At least I have chicken." Is a great line.

[Trophy]

I think the problem here is that the presence of such harassment also causes legitimate criticism to be easily dismissed.

Exactly. By just presenting the harrassments, it's possible to evade legitimate criticism. That's also one reason I think it's good to condemn shitty harrassments when criticising. Of course probably that won't make much of a difference anyways.

[Phil_Giordana_FCD]

[youtube]LkCNJRfSZBU[youtube]

I find that hilarious, but what puzzles me is that the plan was screwed as soon as Leeroy rushed in. So why the hell did the others follow him? It sounded like they were only taking the fight on to get something for Leeroy anyway. If he's going to piss on his chips like that I'd go and find something else to do.

I will say however: "At least I have chicken." Is a great line.

Pre-fabricated:

http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/leeroy-jenkins

[Trophy]

In terms of sex negative feminism what Peezus did was a huge error.
They will look on this video and see it in a completely different light than the sex positives.
...
For example they will ask: "What if this woman was a survivor of sexual assault? Wouldn't joking about having sex with her (and without asking permission) be triggering of her memories of her prior assault?"
They will also ask: "Would Peezus have made the same joke if it was a man who volunteered rather than a woman?"

I see you have passed your Feminism 101 course! That was awesome! :clap:

[Mykeru]

PZ is a submissive/masochist. There is not a chance in hell he can be dominant sexually.

Speaking of which, how'd you like a ride on my bully pulpit, baby?

only if there is a crowd watching

Randomly selected, or should it be unwashed neckbeards and chicks with day-glo hair?

[real horrorshow]

[youtube]lWLFCEDJFg4[youtube]

On better days...

You're a paladin! Heal yourself!

And that sort of thing is one of the main reasons I've never had a WoW account.

[sacha]

SJW women I've noticed get mighty out of shape when you discover that in their view you do more "man things"... so are therefore in their heads a better feminist than them. It's a bit fucken mental.

A lot of their aggression has to do with an enormous amount of insecurity.

[justinvacula]

Re:H2O

I am not backing down from my comment or excusing it away because it was posted on my phone. I think it's silly that a quick comment like that would warrant blog posts.

Anyway, i'd advise you to read the entire comment as I linked it rather than PZ's quote-mined narrative. My main focus is that a lack of 50/50 gender balance is not, by itself, evidence of misandry, misogyny, sexism, or whatever else. It just so happens that some communities, activities, etc. have different levels of gender participation. This doesn't mean that, as I posted, the developers of WoW are sexist or that there is something stopping males from participating in needlepoint. Notice also the quotes I used - the usage of 'guy thing,' anyway, from my and Shermer's usage, is a comment about population - not "oh, women aren't smart enough for x" as some are claiming.

[welch]

Really? People e-mail me random bullshit all the time. It's not harassment, it's spam. Ad breaks in TV shows, the torrent of glossy leaflets that fall out of every magazine all spam, but not harassment. If you mean the stuff that's sent to Sarkeesian specifically in response to the opinions she's expressed, I would estimate that it falls into two categories:
1. People expressing their views on the issues she has raised - which they are perfectly entitled to do.
2. The usual crap from the usual idiots that everyone who makes themselves conspicuous on-line gets - unfortunate but, like spam, inevitable.

If you send me emails that contain offensive material directed at me, and the goal is to annoy me, or disturb me and it's obvious that there's no "good faith", then you are harrassing and in many places it is actually a criminal activity. Sending me photoshopped pornographics images of me clearly falls into that category and can be prosecuted by law. AGAIN THIS DOES NOT APPLY TO PEOPLE EXPRESSING THEIR OPINIONS GODDAMNED IT.

I look at it in terms of effort. If you send someone unwanted emails, they have to do almost nothing to see them in terms of effort. Open email client, read. Same thing with im, @-/d- messages on twitter, Facebook messages, etc. I can, esp. In the case of kids/adolescents , see that as bullying. Those things are being projected at them. It's analogous to standing on the sidewalk in front of their house yelling at them.

It's when they call posting on a web site that isn't their own, someone else's Facebook wall "bullying" that I get off the bus. And no, google results don't count. At that point, they're complaining about conversations happening in places they are not. They have to expend actual effort to go read those things. FTB would be a lot less upset about this place if they stopped reading it more than we do. Vice-versa as well. So please, me saying laden should have been wolf chow as an infant is assholish, but unless I send those statements to him, not bullying.

[sacha]

Speaking of which, how'd you like a ride on my bully pulpit, baby?

only if there is a crowd watching

Randomly selected, or should it be unwashed neckbeards and chicks with day-glo hair?

who is your audience? Aren't you making a powerful speech and rallying support first, or were you planning to do that during my ride?

[Phil_Giordana_FCD]

Really? People e-mail me random bullshit all the time. It's not harassment, it's spam. Ad breaks in TV shows, the torrent of glossy leaflets that fall out of every magazine all spam, but not harassment. If you mean the stuff that's sent to Sarkeesian specifically in response to the opinions she's expressed, I would estimate that it falls into two categories:
1. People expressing their views on the issues she has raised - which they are perfectly entitled to do.
2. The usual crap from the usual idiots that everyone who makes themselves conspicuous on-line gets - unfortunate but, like spam, inevitable.

If you send me emails that contain offensive material directed at me, and the goal is to annoy me, or disturb me and it's obvious that there's no "good faith", then you are harrassing and in many places it is actually a criminal activity. Sending me photoshopped pornographics images of me clearly falls into that category and can be prosecuted by law. AGAIN THIS DOES NOT APPLY TO PEOPLE EXPRESSING THEIR OPINIONS GODDAMNED IT.

I look at it in terms of effort. If you send someone unwanted emails, they have to do almost nothing to see them in terms of effort. Open email client, read. Same thing with im, @-/d- messages on twitter, Facebook messages, etc. I can, esp. In the case of kids/adolescents , see that as bullying. Those things are being projected at them. It's analogous to standing on the sidewalk in front of their house yelling at them.

It's when they call posting on a web site that isn't their own, someone else's Facebook wall "bullying" that I get off the bus. And no, google results don't count. At that point, they're complaining about conversations happening in places they are not. They have to expend actual effort to go read those things. FTB would be a lot less upset about this place if they stopped reading it more than we do. Vice-versa as well. So please, me saying laden should have been wolf chow as an infant is assholish, but unless I send those statements to him, not bullying.

Most recent exemple (and sorry, my stomach's still hurting from the lulz):

Claus: "Hey Laden, sucks you can't ban me from FB"

Laden: "Watch me!"

...

Laden: "Oh, sorry, it's not my thread, I can't ban you".

Lulz level: OVER 9000!!!

[Trophy]

@Phil_Giordana_FCD :

LOL! When the fuck did that happen? I totally missed it! I did a little search and I couldn't find it.

[Miss O Gynist]

Busted doing what? Making a bunch of shit jokes? Having zero comic timing? Sorry but that video was lame.

Really bad jokes, and agree no comic timing. The bust comes in the form of hypocrisy. If anyone else had made those same retarded jokes, he would be all over them.

[John Brown]

Busted doing what? Making a bunch of shit jokes? Having zero comic timing? Sorry but that video was lame.

Busted doing the very thing he preaches against.

Well, there really is no sexism in the video if it is all taken in context. It's just awkward joking around and feeding off of the crowd. You know, innocent banter that goes on between the sexes all the time.

The problem is, it *is* sexist behavior in FTB land. Viewed through PZ's, Ophilia's Stephanie's, et al rubric, this is pretty heinous stuff. It's the sort of video had anyone else been involved (think Sam Harris or Shermer) that pretty much every commenter at FTB would be starting out ever comment thusly (and I'm using stock language, here):

"Ugh! Typical male privilege! Could he be any more clueless? Facepalm!"

If PZ would have come out and immediately said, "Yup, that was incredibly sexist, I apologize, and I'll never do it again," then he would have completely disarmed his critics.

But, PZ has two sets of rules, as everyone here knows.

[TedDahlberg]

@Phil_Giordana_FCD :

LOL! When the fuck did that happen? I totally missed it! I did a little search and I couldn't find it.

Funniest thing I've seen all week :D

Too funny not to share. This just happened
http://i.imgur.com/kdcAB.png

[sacha]

oh how I miss you...

hitch shave.jpg

(13.22 KiB) Downloaded 265 times

*swoon*

[real horrorshow]

The Slymepit is Lex Luthor to FreeThoughtBlogs Superman! 8-)

Oh yes! I love that. Yet another wonderful complement from the Baboons. Honestly, who wouldn't want to be Lex rather than the Big Blue Boy Scout? Even by Superhero standards Supes is fucking bland. And how does he live? Working for beans at a newspaper office for a boss who bollocks him on a daily basis? Bumbling and fumbling around Lois for years! Lex meanwhile is damn billionaire who'd be combing chicks out of his hair if he had hair!

[Altair]

only if there is a crowd watching

Randomly selected, or should it be unwashed neckbeards and chicks with day-glo hair?

Do members of the pit get front row seats?

[Ericb]

Pinker: "The Slymepit is Lex Luthor to FreeThoughtBlogs Superman!"


The Slymepit is Arguments, FTB is Abuse.