"God-centered community building" / "Jim's closet"

#181

Just spit it out, Jim. We each make our own choices. You say what you have to say, & each person who happens across it here has the option to read it or not, reply or not, decide they should give up the internet for Lent* or not, sing Kumbaya or not, block you or not, and so on.

*oops, missed that opportunity for this year

#182

jimhabegger wrote:
TheMan wrote:Tell me your ideas about how you would deal with things like jealousy within a community.
Can you guess what my first three steps might be? Tell me if you'd like me to give you a clue.

Well.... Other than wiping out everyone except for some lactating mums and a few hundred new borns?

#183

Skep Tickle, thanks for the friendly advice :)

Is it okay if I call you Skep?

#184

TheMan, you'll have to try harder than that if you want to be my next Reader of the Week. :)

#185

My next Reader of the Week might be for reading comprehension, and right now deLurch is the winner by default.

#186

Skep tickle wrote:Apply a grain of salt, or mental ;) or sarcasm tag, to at least 1/3 of the posts here. ;)

That applies to my posts too, more or less, in case you hadn't noticed. :)

#187

TheMan, I'm on my third step of what I might do if I saw jealousy poisoning my community. I'm working on freeing myself from any jealousies I might have. That should give you a clue about my first two steps.

I'm thinking of jealousy as antagonistic thoughts, feelings and impulses towards someone that I see getting some friendly attention that I'd like to have, and that I'm not getting. One thing I'm practicing with all my antagonistic thoughts, feelings, and impulses is welcoming them, and feeling grateful for the those capacities and for what that part of me has done for me, and might continue to do. Most of the time, after I do that, those feelings evaporate. Sometimes they keep coming back, but if they do, I just keep welcoming them and feeling grateful for them, and they evaporate again. It's like they're running to me crying, and all I need to do is give them a hug, and they go skipping away happily.

Another thing I might do with feelings of jealousy would be revive my most loving feelings for the person who's getting the friendly attention that I'm envying.

After all that, I might be ready to consider what, if anything, I wanted to do about the situation, for my personal interests, which might include finding healthy ways of getting the friendly attention I wanted.

That's an example of what I might do first, if I saw my community being poisoned by jealousy. I might first work on my own jealousies. Then I would be ready to consider what to do for the community, and for anyone who might be adversely affected by the jealousies, including the people who were experiencing them. I'll write about that in another post.

#188

I'm not sure I still have any readers, or ever will, but I'm not sure I don't and won't, so I'll go back to what I started doing in the first place: explaining the community development process I'm promoting. To illustrate it, I've decided to consider how it might happen here in the SlymePit community. I'm not sure it's even possible for it to happen in an online neighborhood, but I'm not sure it isn't.

It begins with systematic, sustained, loving efforts by a few people, to help enrich and improve the community life, for everyone in the community. One possible example of that here might be starting this thread to lure me away from the Undead thread, where I was inadvertently violating a safe space, so much that the owner was forced to consider a dick move.

Another example of community service might be the Official Slymepit Safe Space Thread, for everyone's entertainment. Of course I don't really know how much any of that was done for love and for the benefit of others, but for illustration purposes, we can just pretent that it was all done with warm feelings and friendly intentions towards all people and all of nature, without any arrière-pensées. This is all roleplaying and make-believe anyway.

#189

You sound hurt now... Are you ok?

#190

TheMan wrote:You sound hurt now... Are you ok?

You mean, my posts in the Undead thread about white men? That was a (failed?) attempt at humor.

#191

But thanks for your concern about my feelings.

#192

jimhabegger wrote:I have a question, and I hope I can get an answer from some other people here besides old white men. Incidentally, I'll be 70 in July.

A while ago I was wondering why campaigning against counterfeit feminism and counterfeit social justice is such a priority for some people. I do see a lot of harm being done under those banners, and I get up in arms about it too, sometimes, but not enough that I would want to talk about it every day.

Since old white men have been explicitly targeted, it's easy to understand why that would appeal to us, but I'm wondering what the attraction is for other people here. I've had a few glimpses into how some people's safe spaces, careers and income, have been adversely affected, but are there other reasons for people to be so interested in all this, that you want to talk about it every day?

You'd posted the above in a "peanut gallery" thread and (more briefly) in the undread thread. I'll post something of an answer here, to keep it in "Jim's closet". I'm not male, and while "old" is somewhat relative, by chronologic age I could be your daughter.

Reasons:
1) Their anti-skepticism. There are lots of people in the world whose behavior is antithetical to basic tenets of skepticism, but most of them don't claim they are skeptics (and/or advocates of "freethought"). It's frustrating to a skeptic to have people who are/were considered to be among the leader in (& faces of) skepticism exhibit anti-skeptical behaviors with no indication that they see the disconnect, particularly when there seemed not to be any place where one could point out the issues - point out that the Emperor & Empress had no clothes. The 'Pit has been that place.

2) Their view of "social justice" seems so limited, to me, and I haven't seen them put forward a clear cogent definition of SJ or of "feminism", nor to clearly describe what they would see as ideal outcomes, nor routes to getting there (so then see (1) above). Racism, sexism, and other forms of discrimination definitely do exist, but their approaches include (a) replying with more racism, sexism, and other forms of discrimination, and (b) seeming to portray these as rife in the West while seeming to not only ignore but even (at times) to excuse them in other places in the world where people are literally suffering and dying at higher rates from factors that include sexism, racism, other forms of discrimination, plus also authoritarian religion which certain people claim to find (so then see (1) above).

I see them denigrating, sidelining, and even trying to harm people who merely disagree with them; this does not seem consistent with either skepticism or humanism. I see them shutting down speech they disagree with; this does not seem consistent with atheism only in that atheists around the world are so commonly targeted by mores & laws limiting speech deemed to be unseemly (see "blasphemy laws", actually anti-blasphemy laws).

So. Those are some thoughts & reasons.

#193

Skep Tickle, I agree with all that. That's why I call it counterfeit social justice. My only question was why anyone would want to spend so much time just complaining about it, day after day. Now that I think of it though, I'm not sure anyone is actually doing that, and I'm not sure any more what my question really is.

#194

jimhabegger wrote:Skep Tickle, I agree with all that. That's why I call it counterfeit social justice. My only question was why anyone would want to spend so much time just complaining about it, day after day. Now that I think of it though, I'm not sure anyone is actually doing that, and I'm not sure any more what my question really is.

Okay then :)

Do you have any involvement in skepticism, and did you before 2011-12? Do you know the history of "the schism"?

Re SJ: I'm all for people actually working on whatever aspect(s) of social justice they find that moves them, in which they see a route to take some type of action, which most of the time of course will be fairly small/local steps but you have to start somewhere. I'm not all that keen on seeing people do stuff like shame others, and promote themselves and their buddies in the name of SJ, but if it's happening outside of a community I feel part of (like skepticism) I probably wouldn't speak up about it.

Re feminism: Kind of annoying to have lived it for 25 years, actually being a woman forging ahead in mostly-male domains and watching those domains become more gender-balanced over the years, and then to be called (including by men & by women half my age) an "anti-feminist". Also annoying to not hear from modern self-described feminists what they actually see as goals (including what "gender equality" actually means), approaches to reach those goals, reality-checks on those stated goals and approaches, etc.

#195

Skep Tickle, whatever my question was, I'll replace it with "Does anyone have any other issues with what some people are doing under the banners of 'feminism' and 'social justice'?" I had a new thought about it, pondering what you said: it's defaming not only atheism, but also feminism and social justice.

If by "skepticism" you mean what I've seen people calling "skepticism" in online atheism circles, my first encounter with that was reading the Atheist Revolution blog. I don't remember when I started reading that. I do remember reading about some people trying to keep Justin Vacula out of some conference, when it was happening.

I've read dozens of articles, blog posts and forum discussions about Elevatorgate, and about all the atheist feuding around what some people are doing in the name of feminism and social justice. I also got some closeup views of it at FtB and in the A+ forums.

It grieves me to see what passes sometimes for "feminism" and "social justice." It also grieves me to see what passes sometimes for "science," "reason," "skepticism" and "critical thinking."

#196

jet_lagg wrote:Mods, Steersman is using a sock account. Ban him.

That could possibly be a joke, but if it isn't, it clearly means that if I post anything anywhere outside of this thread, I'll be violating some people's safe spaces. I'm not taking any more chances.

#197

Lsuoma wrote:Not sure: s/h/it's been doing this a loooooong time:

Okay, now I know I need a break, or more sleep. I didn't see that until at least the third time I looked at it.

Fascist Tit.

#198

And I won't try to do any more joking, apart from my signature.

#199

And TheMan, yes, now I am hurt.

#200

If jet_lagg was not joking, then the malice in that post gives me knots in my stomach.

#201

I never felt that much malice from One-Trick Pony, even in his most vile insinuations about me.

#202

Ahhh... Ok. Glad to know.

#203

Maybe the FT is hurt....

#204

TheMan, the malice I was talking about was not in the FT's post. It was in jet_lagg's post.

I'm taking the FT's word at face value, that he genuinely despises me. I'm also taking it at face value that he genuinely thinks my intentions are dishonest and malicious. In that case I admire him very much for sticking to his principles, and not molesting me or interfering with me. I don't see any malice at all in what he has said or done. In fact, I see it as very respectful of him to tell me to my face that he despises me.

It would surprise me if he ever for a moment thought I could be Steersman, but I'm not sure he really meant to imply that.

#205

TheMan, it just dawned on me that Lsuoma might think I'm trolling. Then I realized that jet_lagg might think so too. That took away some of the hurt. Then, thinking about it some more, some other things fell into place. I'm feeling better now. I'm not sure there's any seriousness in your concern about my feelings, but I'm not sure there isn't. I've decided for myself, for now, not to try to put any humor into my posts at all.

#206

Cultural appropriation:

I don't presume to know what all the possible objections might be to people outside of a culture imitating parts of it. I do see some of that as closely intertwined with what I see as oppression. That doesn't mean to me that every person who doesn't qualify as a member of that culture in the eyes of its self-appointed guardians, and who is doing something that looks like an imitation of it, is doing something wrong.

#207

To clarify, I do sometimes see imitation of a culture being used as an instrument of oppression and exploitation. That may or may not be what some people have against it, but I can certainly sympathize with people's anger about it, and the temptation to play whack-a-mole with it. That doesn't mean I approve of people actually doing that.

#208

Women's restrooms:

I think that most or maybe even all of the feuding over access to women's restrooms is coming, in both camps, from the part of people's personalities that I see as the worst perversions of male qualities and capacities. In fact, now I'm seeing all the feuding over social issues as men feuding with each other, metaphorically speaking. We female people have more loving, productive and beneficial ways of working for changes in society.

If someone in a stereotypical male body says that she sees herself as a woman, and therefore has a right to use women's restrooms, I have no way of knowing if she's telling the truth, or if she's trying to fool me or herself. In fact, even if she's in a stereotypical female body, and says she sees herself as a woman, I have no way of knowing if she's telling the truth, or if she's trying to fool me or herself. My default position is to take her at her word, and to call her a woman, clarifying that whenever and however I think it might need to be clarified.

What I can say to the woman in a stereotypical male body, is that what she means by "woman" might not be what the word "woman" was originally intended to mean, in providing separate restrooms for the world's most privileged "men" and "women." It is certainly not what a lot of people mean by "woman," when they use those restrooms, trusting them to be inhabited only by people who look like women and male or female children to them. Then I might agree with her if she says, "Well, then, the signs need to be changed, to clarify who those restrooms are really for." If she goes beyond that and says that the signs should not be changed, and that her definition of "woman" should now be used as the legal definition, then as far as I'm concerned that's open for discussion, but I'm not going to agree with it just to avoid being called a transphobe.

#209

The female parts of us don't need "men" to protect us. That's ludicrous. They're the ones that need coddling and protection, psychologically. We could use the help of the best in men though, to keep the worst in them from getting in the way of the good we can do, and undermining it.

#210

That's where their intimidating qualities and capacities, and their brute force, can do some good.

#211

So now I see that all this demand for psychological coddling and protection might be coming from the male side of people's personalities.

#212

I see what might have happened with some of my posts. Some of them were Poes.

#213

My selection for best Undead post of the day, March 29:

comhcinc, post 15027, Thoughts on the North Carolina Transgender law

I'm rating for attitude and behavior, not content, but I do like the content of that post.

#214

Jim, fwiw, I don't think that anybody here hates you or feels malice towards you. I do think that many have found your discourse tedious and coming from a philosophical and gnostic position that is at odds with atheism.

#215

KiwiInOz wrote:Jim, fwiw, I don't think that anybody here hates you or feels malice towards you.

:o :D
Thank you for telling me that!

I do think that many have found your discourse tedious and coming from a philosophical and gnostic position that is at odds with atheism.

I understand that very well. I don't have any problem with that. In fact, I don't even have a problem with Jet_Lagg any more, even if he was serious.

#216

There's something I'd like to say to Skep Tickle, TheMan, KiwiInOz, and anyone else who might possibly have some friendly interest in me, if any of you are available for it. I'll even include comhcinc, and Lsuoma, in that. I'm not trying to be funny, I've given that up for now. comhcinc, I'm honestly not sure that there's no friendliness in your interactions with me, and Lsuoma, I'll take you at your word that you despise me, but I see a lot of generosity in the way you manage the Pit, especially with me, and I'm not sure that you wouldn't be willing to give me some genuinely helpful advice.

The reason I came back to the Pit was because I had some good memories from the last time I came here. I'm not sure why. I really enjoyed some of the conversations I had with people. I think maybe I like the freedom here from the oppression of some kinds of social bandwagons, and I like seeing other people enjoying those freedoms, even when I don't approve of how I see them using them.

I would like to have some conversations with some people here, but I'm not interested in discussing all the foolishness and wrongdoings that are going on in the name of feminism and social justice, the ways that I see them being discussed here; and I don't see any real interest in anything I want to discuss. I didn't really expect to, but I wanted to give it a chance.

I'm thinking now that I haven't really given it much of a chance. I'll keep trying to find discussions that interest me in the Undead thread, and I'll try to think of more topics that I might enjoy discussing, that might interest some people here. The reason I'm telling you is not because I expect you to do anything about it. You might have some ideas for me that I can use, but I'm not really expecting that, either. I just have an idea that it might be better for all of us, if you know what I'm trying to do.

#217

Hey Jim, if you're really here to discuss what ideal communities should or shouldn't be like, then why won't you answer my questions about it? Is it because my questions bring up aspects of islam/bahai which you're uncomfortable with?

#218

TheMan, you're my leading candidate now for this week's Reader of the Week. The previous leading candidate has gone AWOL.

I'm planning a new award now, for poster of the week. The leading candidates for this week are Phil_Giordana_FCD and One-Trick Pony, for integrity and courage.

Some of the recent posts that I saw made me want to be out of here, and regret that I ever posted here. I came very close to posting a last message to say that I'm easy to find if anyone ever contacts me. Right now the repulsiveness of this place far outweighs any appeal that it ever had for me.

Then I noticed that there were people posting who were ignoring all that depravity, and continuing their discussions of other topics, and even some of its instigators apparently regretting it, and I reconsidered. I also remembered that the most poisonous kind of depravity I see here, by far, is no worse than the depravity I've seen in every other social Internet discussion, including Facebook, and I'm not planning to stop posting on Facebook.

I'm still not seeing any signs that I'll be able to have the kinds of conversations here with anyone, that I remember having before, and was hoping to have again, but I'm still not sure I won't. I'm just waiting to see what will happen next.

#219

In case it wasn't obvious, in my previous post, "I'm easy to find if anyone ever contacts me" should have been "I'm easy to find if anyone ever wants to contact me."

I said that I would keep trying to find discussions that interest me in the Undead thread, and I would try to think of more topics that I might enjoy discussing, that might interest some people here. I might need a few hours, or even a few days, to recover from the way I've been traumatized by some recent posts in the Undead thread, before I go back there, so for now I'll just list some of my interests that come to mind.

- Maybe some people would be willing to help me learn how to make gifs like some of the ones I'm seeing here.
- Part of my volunteer work with children is teaching them origami. I'm not sure what kind of discussions I could have with anyone about that, even if anyone is interested, but that's one of my current interests, so I'm listing it.
- I've just recently started trying to learn to make videos to send to my children and some of my friends, as a different way of keeping in touch, from sending emails and WeChat messages. Maybe some people here would have tips for me about that.
- I've tried, numerous times, to switch to a Gnu/Linux system, but failed every time. Now I have a spare notebook that I can devote exclusively to that, but ever since I got it, I haven't found any time to do anything with it. Anyway, it might be fun to discuss it if there's anyone who's interested. Currently I have an Ubuntu partition and a Debian partition.
- Fractional calculus, anyone?
- My family lived on the French Island of Martinique for 14 years, and now my wife and I have lived in China for almost seven years. Maybe someone would like to exchange stories about our experiences living in other countries.

I'll stop there for now, and maybe list some more interests later.

#220

Some more topics that I might enjoy discussing:
- The Chinese language.
- Indie music. I don't actually listen to any, because I haven't found any good sources yet, for the kinds of music that I would like.
- Online games that we've tried.
- Homeschooling.
- Mind Mapping.

#221

Curiously, the person whose posts looked the ugliest to me, a few days ago, is now the one whose posts I admire the most.

#222

Poor Jim. Has it been a rollercoaster then? A tumultuous ride of undefined horrors? A minefield of emotions? A metaphor?

#223

CaptainFluffyBunny wrote:Poor Jim. Has it been a rollercoaster then? A tumultuous ride of undefined horrors? A minefield of emotions? A metaphor?

It has been like a roller coaster some of the time. Not so much like a haunted house ride or a minefield.

The Slyme Pit as metaphor ... hmm ... I'll ponder that.

You just put yourself on my list of candidates for reader of the week.

#224

If God can be a metaphor, why not the Slyme Pit?

#225

I have another idea now about what appeals to me here. I'm alarmed by the picture of oppression and repression growing and spreading through all of society, including its institutions, under the stolen banner of social justice, that I'm seeing in the serialized novels masquerading as news these days. It's comforting to see that I'm not the only one who's feeling that way.

#226

This place is looking more and more to me like an online role-playing game that I was foolish enough to take seriously. Just like people do with religion.

I'm getting dizzy ...

#227

CaptainFluffyBunny, I've been thinking about the Slyme Pit as metaphor, and here's what I've come up with so far: The name itself is of course metaphorical, and I see now that it's very well chosen, more than I ever thought before.

Also, I wasn't thinking about it as metaphor, when I realized it might be an RPG, but that might be how the idea came to me, without me being aware of it.

#228

Now I understand what people mean by calling it "rape culture."

#229

CaptainFluffyBunny, you really put me onto something, with your idea of metaphor. That might be what has turned my thoughts to the Slyme Pit as RPG, and to make-believe, allegory and parables. Now I can see part of what happens in the Pit as a parody of the worst allegations of social justice careerism about online misogyny and rape culture.

Now I'm wondering how many layers of meaning there are in this.

#230

I just did a Web search with "misogyny" and "rape culture," to see if I understand what people mean by it, and I went through the first page of results without finding anything but a lot of insults to my intelligence that turn my stomach.

#231

I'm supposed to believe that a Web site with dozens of graphic images of violence against women on its home page, is genuinely devoted to reducing and counteracting misogyny and rape cultures?

#232

I've never used the terms "misogyny" and "rape culture" before, and I don't intend to ever use them again. After seeing the results of my Web search using those terms, I feel unclean from having used them in these last few posts.

#233

jimhabegger wrote:In case it wasn't obvious, in my previous post, "I'm easy to find if anyone ever contacts me" should have been "I'm easy to find if anyone ever wants to contact me."

I said that I would keep trying to find discussions that interest me in the Undead thread, and I would try to think of more topics that I might enjoy discussing, that might interest some people here. I might need a few hours, or even a few days, to recover from the way I've been traumatized by some recent posts in the Undead thread, before I go back there, so for now I'll just list some of my interests that come to mind.

Seriously? You're traumatized by being here? Then why are you still here? You are not a captive here.

- Part of my volunteer work with children is teaching them origami. I'm not sure what kind of discussions I could have with anyone about that, even if anyone is interested, but that's one of my current interests, so I'm listing it.

Maybe after we get all my community-building questions to you out of the way (since those came first and are still unanswered/undiscussed), I can show you the full instructions for my origami diamond. This was taught to me as a child, and as far as I know, I'm the only person who has ever published the instructions - I've never seen it in anyone else's instruction books. It's very easy to make and would be suitable for beginners. I learned it when I was about 7 or 8. The instructions are not currently online, but I can put them here in a post easily enough. Here are a couple pictures of the finished diamond.

Side view:
http://www.scentednectar.com/slimepit/Image9.jpg

Top view:
http://www.scentednectar.com/slimepit/Image8.jpg

#234

Scented Nectar, I like it!

At first I thought I would need to calculate some distances, but when I started doing the calculations, I saw that it could all be done by folding.

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1552/255 ... c0bd_n.jpg diamond 01 by Jim Habegger, on Flickr
https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1501/261 ... 02af_n.jpg diamond 02 by Jim Habegger, on Flickr
https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1501/261 ... 02af_n.jpg diamond 03 by Jim Habegger, on Flickr

#235

Oops! Image fail on the last one.
https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1487/258 ... 6185_n.jpg diamond 03 by Jim Habegger, on Flickr

#236

This week's reader of the week will be for reading response, reading comprehension and critical thinking.

#237

Critical thinking for me includes critical examination of ones own premises and logic.

#238

Scented Nectar wrote:The instructions are not currently online, but I can put them here in a post easily enough.

No need, I found your directions at archive.org, and I see that my pattern is a little different from yours.

#239

I wish I have more time to reply in the more meaningful manner. Perhaps next week.

I don't really care about your awards.

#240

jimhabegger wrote:Scented Nectar, I like it!

At first I thought I would need to calculate some distances, but when I started doing the calculations, I saw that it could all be done by folding.

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1552/255 ... c0bd_n.jpg diamond 01 by Jim Habegger, on Flickr
https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1501/261 ... 02af_n.jpg diamond 02 by Jim Habegger, on Flickr
https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1501/261 ... 02af_n.jpg diamond 03 by Jim Habegger, on Flickr

Not bad! You figured that out from the picture too, which means I can't hold the origami secret from you until you discuss that community stuff. :x

I fold it slightly differently, but it's almost the same. After doing the first 4 folds (the + and x ones which all cross the center point), I use the starts and ends of them to place the starts and ends of the next 8 folds.

http://www.scentednectar.com/slimepit/Image2.gif

http://www.scentednectar.com/slimepit/Image3.gif

http://www.scentednectar.com/slimepit/Image4.gif

All folds get creased in both mountain and valleys so that they bend easily in both directions, and then after all the folds are in place, the final folding assembly can be done, which by your picture, you've obviously figured out. :)

Just refreshed the page, and I see that you found an archived copy.

jimhabegger wrote:
Scented Nectar wrote:The instructions are not currently online, but I can put them here in a post easily enough.
No need, I found your directions at archive.org, and I see that my pattern is a little different from yours.

Still though. You figured out the basic shape and folds from just the finished picture before seeing the instructions. That's pretty good.