The Periodic Table's Younger, Sexier, Sibling Thread...

Old subthreads
Lsuoma
Fascist Tit
Posts: 10529
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 5:58 pm
Location: Punggye-ri
Contact:

Re: The Periodic Table's Younger, Sexier, Sibling Thread...

#5521

Post by Lsuoma » Sat Jan 19, 2013 4:55 pm

Meh, fucked up the quote.

another lurker
.
.
Posts: 4675
Joined: Mon Dec 31, 2012 6:39 pm
Contact:

Re: The Periodic Table's Younger, Sexier, Sibling Thread...

#5522

Post by another lurker » Sat Jan 19, 2013 4:57 pm

Lsuoma wrote:Meh, fucked up the quote.

That's it! You're going on my foe list now!!!1111!!! 8-)

Mr Danksworth
.
.
Posts: 398
Joined: Thu Jul 26, 2012 10:30 pm
Contact:

Re: The Periodic Table's Younger, Sexier, Sibling Thread...

#5523

Post by Mr Danksworth » Sat Jan 19, 2013 4:58 pm

irkthepurists wrote:I've no idea if there's a secret forum or not, but the only thing that vaguely bugs me is why so few of the mods have posted on the Introduce Yourself section. (Alright, I haven't either, to be fair.) I can't be the only one who wonders who exactly the 'seniors' are, where they've come from, and why they're considered experts on social justice.
I don't think that anyone around here claims to be an 'expert' on social justice. Many of us are experts on the behaviors and tactics of Social Justice Warrior fuckwads though. The expertise comes with the experience of having to deal with them.

comslave
.
.
Posts: 389
Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2012 12:30 am
Contact:

Re: The Periodic Table's Younger, Sexier, Sibling Thread...

#5524

Post by comslave » Sat Jan 19, 2013 4:58 pm

Phil_Giordana_FCD wrote:
Louis wrote:

I'm picking the side which doesn't think dehumanisation of women is okay
Errr, that was, how to say, more than awkward. Nobody here thinks dehumanising women is okay. I know you don't pick sides, but honestly, who are these people who actually dehumanise women? Are they posting here? I don't get this.

Didn't you get the memo? The world is divided between black and white. You're not allowed to be non feminist without being for dehumanizing women.

comslave
.
.
Posts: 389
Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2012 12:30 am
Contact:

Re: The Periodic Table's Younger, Sexier, Sibling Thread...

#5525

Post by comslave » Sat Jan 19, 2013 5:01 pm

justinvacula wrote:I applied for a Surly Grant to attend Women in Secularism 2 as per Surly Amy's invitation on twitter.

:lol: good luck with that.

AbsurdWalls
.
.
Posts: 863
Joined: Sat Dec 29, 2012 3:50 pm
Contact:

Re: The Periodic Table's Younger, Sexier, Sibling Thread...

#5526

Post by AbsurdWalls » Sat Jan 19, 2013 5:01 pm

Mr Danksworth wrote:
irkthepurists wrote:I've no idea if there's a secret forum or not, but the only thing that vaguely bugs me is why so few of the mods have posted on the Introduce Yourself section. (Alright, I haven't either, to be fair.) I can't be the only one who wonders who exactly the 'seniors' are, where they've come from, and why they're considered experts on social justice.
I don't think that anyone around here claims to be an 'expert' on social justice. Many of us are experts on the behaviors and tactics of Social Justice Warrior fuckwads though. The expertise comes with the experience of having to deal with them.
That post is from A+, but you're replying to it as if it was posted here?

Lsuoma
Fascist Tit
Posts: 10529
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 5:58 pm
Location: Punggye-ri
Contact:

Re: The Periodic Table's Younger, Sexier, Sibling Thread...

#5527

Post by Lsuoma » Sat Jan 19, 2013 5:02 pm

another lurker wrote:
Lsuoma wrote:Meh, fucked up the quote.

That's it! You're going on my foe list now!!!1111!!! 8-)
:law-policered: Nice try - but you can't foe mods!!! :law-policered:


another lurker
.
.
Posts: 4675
Joined: Mon Dec 31, 2012 6:39 pm
Contact:

Re: The Periodic Table's Younger, Sexier, Sibling Thread...

#5529

Post by another lurker » Sat Jan 19, 2013 5:03 pm

Lsuoma wrote:
another lurker wrote:
Lsuoma wrote:Meh, fucked up the quote.

That's it! You're going on my foe list now!!!1111!!! 8-)
:law-policered: Nice try - but you can't foe mods!!! :law-policered:
Whenever you post, I will write 'FOE' over your name, in black marker, right on my screen!!

Foiled!!! :P

comslave
.
.
Posts: 389
Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2012 12:30 am
Contact:

Re: The Periodic Table's Younger, Sexier, Sibling Thread...

#5530

Post by comslave » Sat Jan 19, 2013 5:05 pm

Setar wrote:Yes, julian, do fuck off. As can you, wind.

the minute we the people, and for that matter people who are oppressed and abused
= upper middle class college girls and older lesbians who haven't faced a day of real oppression in their life. :violin:

AbsurdWalls
.
.
Posts: 863
Joined: Sat Dec 29, 2012 3:50 pm
Contact:

Re: The Periodic Table's Younger, Sexier, Sibling Thread...

#5531

Post by AbsurdWalls » Sat Jan 19, 2013 5:06 pm

comslave wrote:
Setar wrote:Yes, julian, do fuck off. As can you, wind.

the minute we the people, and for that matter people who are oppressed and abused
= upper middle class college girls and older lesbians who haven't faced a day of real oppression in their life. :violin:
90% sure Setar is genderqueer, but originally a dude.

Mr Danksworth
.
.
Posts: 398
Joined: Thu Jul 26, 2012 10:30 pm
Contact:

Re: The Periodic Table's Younger, Sexier, Sibling Thread...

#5532

Post by Mr Danksworth » Sat Jan 19, 2013 5:08 pm

AbsurdWalls wrote:
Mr Danksworth wrote:
irkthepurists wrote:I've no idea if there's a secret forum or not, but the only thing that vaguely bugs me is why so few of the mods have posted on the Introduce Yourself section. (Alright, I haven't either, to be fair.) I can't be the only one who wonders who exactly the 'seniors' are, where they've come from, and why they're considered experts on social justice.
I don't think that anyone around here claims to be an 'expert' on social justice. Many of us are experts on the behaviors and tactics of Social Justice Warrior fuckwads though. The expertise comes with the experience of having to deal with them.
That post is from A+, but you're replying to it as if it was posted here?
Oops, I didn't realize. I thought it was a newbie trying to start shit.

ReneeHendricks
.
.
Posts: 2244
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 9:48 am
Location: Kent, WA
Contact:

Re: The Periodic Table's Younger, Sexier, Sibling Thread...

#5533

Post by ReneeHendricks » Sat Jan 19, 2013 5:08 pm

Phil_Giordana_FCD wrote:Renee, presentation test low quality. Just let me know what to change:

[youtube]XyIgunasTYU[/youtube]
Actually, I love it :D It's straight forward and to the point. Can you send me a copy? DM me for email details.

d4m10n
.
.
Posts: 1518
Joined: Thu Jul 05, 2012 5:17 am
Location: OKC
Contact:

Re: The Periodic Table's Younger, Sexier, Sibling Thread...

#5534

Post by d4m10n » Sat Jan 19, 2013 5:09 pm

Louis wrote:I'm off. Too much time spent already. Have fun folks.
Have fun reassimilating with the Horde, and watch out for the flaming porcupines and rusty knives!

Michael K Gray
.
.
Posts: 2480
Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2012 2:04 am
Location: Adelaide, South Australia
Contact:

Re: The Periodic Table's Younger, Sexier, Sibling Thread...

#5535

Post by Michael K Gray » Sat Jan 19, 2013 5:09 pm

Lsuoma wrote:
Michael K Gray wrote:
Lsuoma wrote:Here's a thought that just struck me, which is, I think, very telling.

We are seeing a CONSTANT stream of people saying, in effect:

"I was a babboollie, but gradually got fed up with what I was seeing and hearing. I heard terrible things about Teh Pitters, but when I came over here to take a look I found that the FC(n) had completely misrepresented you. Sure, it's crude, and you need a thick skin, but Pitters seem to be honest, and adult."

I have not heard of a single instance of reverse Pitflow, so to speak. (Fucking Pitmagnets, how do they work, eh?).

Can anyone name an example? (colon doesn't count, of course - s/h/it was pure wank from the get go.)
Justicar, for a while at least.
No, Justicar never posted here, t least not under his own name.
How does that exempt it from being considered a case of reverse pitflow, pray tell?
He flounced from Abbie's PToS, and went FTB native for a while.

AbsurdWalls
.
.
Posts: 863
Joined: Sat Dec 29, 2012 3:50 pm
Contact:

Re: The Periodic Table's Younger, Sexier, Sibling Thread...

#5536

Post by AbsurdWalls » Sat Jan 19, 2013 5:09 pm

Dylan Moran wrote:Religion is essentially a formalised panic about death.
Just heard this quote, I like it a lot.

sacha
.
.
Posts: 2450
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2012 9:31 am
Location: Gender Traitors International
Contact:

Re: The Periodic Table's Younger, Sexier, Sibling Thread...

#5537

Post by sacha » Sat Jan 19, 2013 5:11 pm

[spoiler]
Malsbert wrote:Concerning: circumcision reduces HIV transmission by a whopping 60%.

Sub-Saharan African randomised clinical trials into male circumcision and HIV transmission: Methodological, ethical and legal concerns.
Researcher expectation bias:
The principal investigators had a history of co-authoring papers promoting male circumcision (eg
Gray and Wawer have co-authored more than 100 joint papers) indicating their close collaboration.10
The names of no fewer than 14 co-authors appeared on the reports of both Ugandan trials,11
suggesting the two trials were not independent. Analysis of the references cited in common across the
four trials also reveals substantial overlap.12
[/spoiler]
Malsbert wrote:Looks like complete BS. ( but please be a Sceptic and read the damn thing yourself )

Oh... and hello to you all. ( i'll take the mountain dew please )
I adore new Slyme Pit members, who are not really new at all. Life is so much more pleasant when an unfamiliar name knows what to order.
Welcome, Malsbert

Metalogic42
.
.
Posts: 1252
Joined: Mon Dec 03, 2012 10:56 am
Contact:

Re: The Periodic Table's Younger, Sexier, Sibling Thread...

#5538

Post by Metalogic42 » Sat Jan 19, 2013 5:13 pm

Drosophelia Benson wrote:Ya, about that not turning your back in a crowded room – one of them is fundraising in order to attend Women in Secularism 2. Urggh.
http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lmhw3 ... o1_500.jpg

skepCHUD

Re: The Periodic Table's Younger, Sexier, Sibling Thread...

#5539

Post by skepCHUD » Sat Jan 19, 2013 5:13 pm

General Alert Slympepit Commandos!! Elven Sheriff Setar has learned of our plans to capture The Hill of Smiting Privilege.
We must reorganize and fight the creation of the socially just society later.

welch
.
.
Posts: 9208
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2012 4:05 am
Contact:

Re: The Periodic Table's Younger, Sexier, Sibling Thread...

#5540

Post by welch » Sat Jan 19, 2013 5:13 pm

Louis wrote:
ThreeFlangedJavis wrote:
<snip>

And does it never occur to you that some of the people who need re-educating actually know an awful lot about social studies and are disturbed at the warped application of terms like 'privilege' and 'patriarchy'? I would suggest that there are things about social studies that the Pharyngulites need to understand. Do you think that Pitters generally are unaware of social studies concepts? Your analogy with creationism highlights the problem. Feminist dogma is not FACT. It is subjective and the flavour of the moment at FTB requires that ridiculous assumptions are made about male and female experience. It also applies academic concepts like Patriarchy and privilege to individuals which is to use them outside of their intended application.

Your description of Pharyngula is not new to many of us. A lot of us have suffered the same Kool Aid poisoning. With respect, you appear to be labouring under the usual delusion that Pharyngula is populated by learned, intellectually honest people and that their critics are ignorant. It's not an issue of Pharyngula not being to peoples' taste. The horde love to make out that people are flouncing ,when in fact they have either been banned or got fed up with just about every statement they make being twisted beyond all recognition.
No I don't think the 'pitters are generally anything. Fuck me isn't that obvious yet?
No, not really. But given your refusal to see our issues with the FTB lot as anything but whining, I must have missed it. So sorry.
Louis wrote:Yes I do think there are loads and loads of things the pharyngulites (me included) can learn. GO AND TELL THEM. Or if that doesn't work, set up a separate place like this and dedicate your effort there. Where's the problem? If this stuff is so easy to rebut, detail it and rebut it. Please. You'll be doing me a favour. Instead it's team this, kool aid that, why?
We can't we're not allowed to comment there. Did you miss that part? PZ's quite proud of it. Also, why must we prove everytHing we say, yet none of PZ's claims seem to require proof. Oh wait, you're not responsible for anything he says or does. So what proof of the claims of misogyny and danger made about us has anyone over there "proven"? It should be easy for you to find, since I'm sure no one there would ever make such a claim without simultaneous presentation of proof, right? Unless they're not so benighted as they would seem.
Louis wrote:What did I say I was here explicitly not to do? Defend every blog and poster of FTB. I don't care about your issues with people on FTB. It's not my problem.
No, you just criticize us for not commenting there, even though we cannot in an honest, open fashion. You bag on us for not presenting proof of our claims, when you seem to give PZ and the rest a bye on their lack of proof for their claims. You seem to be holding us to a standard you hold no one else to. This is not uncommon mind you.
Louis wrote:Feminist dogma isn't fact? Subjective? Well that was specific and detailed, thanks. Doubtless some elements of feminism are dogma and are subjective. Sure. No argument there. Not all of it is though. And for me those are the interesting bits. Is that another example of this nuance I've heard so much about?
And your proof for your claim?
Louis wrote:Kool aid? Delusion? Did I claim every poster on FTB was a social sciences whizz? No. Did I say that there are some relevant experts there who do do things rather well? Yes. Did I say all critics are ignorant no? Hell, if you're going to engage at least engage with what I said and a little less bitterness.
You keep telling us to do things we are banned from doing as if somehow, we are not blanket banned there. You seem to have a problem with reality

comslave
.
.
Posts: 389
Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2012 12:30 am
Contact:

Re: The Periodic Table's Younger, Sexier, Sibling Thread...

#5541

Post by comslave » Sat Jan 19, 2013 5:14 pm

justinvacula wrote:
codelette wrote:Going to that Women in Secusomething conference seems like a waste of time/money, Justin. They will not let you go past the hotel doors.
"Unless someone has been previously banned for harassment from CFI (please see our harassment policy), they may attend any CFI event or conference.

Best regards,


--
Melody Hensley
Executive Director, Center for Inquiry-Washington, DC
Organizer, Women in Secularism
Certified Secular Celebrant"
And she's arranged for transportation:
http://images.fineartamerica.com/images ... rchers.jpg

Karmakin
.
.
Posts: 1437
Joined: Wed Dec 26, 2012 6:49 am
Contact:

Re: The Periodic Table's Younger, Sexier, Sibling Thread...

#5542

Post by Karmakin » Sat Jan 19, 2013 5:14 pm

comslave wrote:
Phil_Giordana_FCD wrote:
Louis wrote:

I'm picking the side which doesn't think dehumanisation of women is okay
Errr, that was, how to say, more than awkward. Nobody here thinks dehumanising women is okay. I know you don't pick sides, but honestly, who are these people who actually dehumanise women? Are they posting here? I don't get this.

Didn't you get the memo? The world is divided between black and white. You're not allowed to be non feminist without being for dehumanizing women.
Not to mention, maybe just speaking for myself, but I highly doubt it, that I think that some of the stuff that you see in the FTB/A+/SJW sphere is actually much more dehumanizing towards women as a group than anything that we could EVER do.

The concept that women are fragile flowers that need to always be protected from anything and everything in the world, quite frankly in terms of dehumanization, is something that would NEVER EVER cross my mind.

But there you go.

Truth be told, here's the deal, in case any of the bigots are reading. And they probably are. We live in a society where less and less (we have far to go, but we've also come a long way as well) people don't see a woman as being a woman. They see her as being a person, an individual. Not a part of group X to be treated as a political pawn (or rook...or queen..or whatever) irregardless of his/her personal qualities or wants/desires.

Like I said..we're not there yet...but we're getting there.

But your political objectification of women (and men and minorities and whatever) quite frankly, is bigotry. The fact that you try to throw gender where gender doesn't belong...(A good example of this is Adam Lee's petition. Why can't we decry harassment against people? Why does it have to be ONLY against women? Are you saying that women are not people? (yes))...means that you WANT people to be judged based upon their gender...you just want a more me-positive view of things.

Well no. Sorry. So I'll oppose you, just like I oppose all the other bigots out there who want to sustain conflict-based theories that have pretty much no basis in reality.

Karmakin
.
.
Posts: 1437
Joined: Wed Dec 26, 2012 6:49 am
Contact:

Re: The Periodic Table's Younger, Sexier, Sibling Thread...

#5543

Post by Karmakin » Sat Jan 19, 2013 5:15 pm

Errrr..damn. In that previous post take where I say "less and less" and change that to "more and more".

comslave
.
.
Posts: 389
Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2012 12:30 am
Contact:

Re: The Periodic Table's Younger, Sexier, Sibling Thread...

#5544

Post by comslave » Sat Jan 19, 2013 5:17 pm

VickyCaramel wrote:
http://www.picpaste.com/extpics/tits-niuKWP8C.jpg
There ya go!
Breasts of mass distraction.

ThreeFlangedJavis
.
.
Posts: 1252
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2012 3:13 am
Contact:

Re: The Periodic Table's Younger, Sexier, Sibling Thread...

#5545

Post by ThreeFlangedJavis » Sat Jan 19, 2013 5:19 pm

Louis wrote:
ThreeFlangedJavis wrote:
<snip>

And does it never occur to you that some of the people who need re-educating actually know an awful lot about social studies and are disturbed at the warped application of terms like 'privilege' and 'patriarchy'? I would suggest that there are things about social studies that the Pharyngulites need to understand. Do you think that Pitters generally are unaware of social studies concepts? Your analogy with creationism highlights the problem. Feminist dogma is not FACT. It is subjective and the flavour of the moment at FTB requires that ridiculous assumptions are made about male and female experience. It also applies academic concepts like Patriarchy and privilege to individuals which is to use them outside of their intended application.

Your description of Pharyngula is not new to many of us. A lot of us have suffered the same Kool Aid poisoning. With respect, you appear to be labouring under the usual delusion that Pharyngula is populated by learned, intellectually honest people and that their critics are ignorant. It's not an issue of Pharyngula not being to peoples' taste. The horde love to make out that people are flouncing ,when in fact they have either been banned or got fed up with just about every statement they make being twisted beyond all recognition.
No I don't think the 'pitters are generally anything. Fuck me isn't that obvious yet?

Yes I do think there are loads and loads of things the pharyngulites (me included) can learn. GO AND TELL THEM. Or if that doesn't work, set up a separate place like this and dedicate your effort there. Where's the problem? If this stuff is so easy to rebut, detail it and rebut it. Please. You'll be doing me a favour. Instead it's team this, kool aid that, why?

What did I say I was here explicitly not to do? Defend every blog and poster of FTB. I don't care about your issues with people on FTB. It's not my problem.

Feminist dogma isn't fact? Subjective? Well that was specific and detailed, thanks. Doubtless some elements of feminism are dogma and are subjective. Sure. No argument there. Not all of it is though. And for me those are the interesting bits. Is that another example of this nuance I've heard so much about?

Kool aid? Delusion? Did I claim every poster on FTB was a social sciences whizz? No. Did I say that there are some relevant experts there who do do things rather well? Yes. Did I say all critics are ignorant no? Hell, if you're going to engage at least engage with what I said and a little less bitterness.
Did I say team anything? The reason I use the word Kool Aid is because you are using well worn descriptions of the Pharyngula culture which don't match the reality, at least as far as I can see (not to mention a shed-load of other people). That may be patronising, but that's how I see it. Some of us have been following Pharyngula for years and know very well what it feels like to be an insider and be impressed by the apparent intellectual rigour. I for, for one, am well aware of how the place operates.

You seem to be missing the point. There is no nuance when disagreeing, especially as an outsider. If you want to be called a liar, told you are misrepresenting your qualifications, an MRA, hate women, have your words twisted and trashed as a narcissist when you try to correct the misrepresentations, then you can disagree with the Horde. Whether or not everyone there is like that is irrelevant. PZ Myers enourages this shit and is on hand to ban with a dismissive strawman.You are correct, this is a about ethics. Honest people don't run blogs like that, nor do they call people racists without any evidence whatsoever or liken entire groups of people to Mark Lepine without a shred of evidence. Nor do they write inflammatory posts calling people evil and then upping the ante when their errors are pointed out. Call me cynical, but those kinds of things don't get covered under the 'everyone has flaws' defence. We seem to have different ideas of what a cool guy is.

Am I bitter? No, but I should be. So we are distracting ourselves? When I need advice on how to react to being slandered and being used as a villain in someone's victim narrative then I might ask you.

Lsuoma
Fascist Tit
Posts: 10529
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 5:58 pm
Location: Punggye-ri
Contact:

Re: The Periodic Table's Younger, Sexier, Sibling Thread...

#5546

Post by Lsuoma » Sat Jan 19, 2013 5:21 pm

Michael K Gray wrote:
Lsuoma wrote:
Michael K Gray wrote:
Lsuoma wrote:Here's a thought that just struck me, which is, I think, very telling.

We are seeing a CONSTANT stream of people saying, in effect:

"I was a babboollie, but gradually got fed up with what I was seeing and hearing. I heard terrible things about Teh Pitters, but when I came over here to take a look I found that the FC(n) had completely misrepresented you. Sure, it's crude, and you need a thick skin, but Pitters seem to be honest, and adult."

I have not heard of a single instance of reverse Pitflow, so to speak. (Fucking Pitmagnets, how do they work, eh?).

Can anyone name an example? (colon doesn't count, of course - s/h/it was pure wank from the get go.)
Justicar, for a while at least.
No, Justicar never posted here, t least not under his own name.
How does that exempt it from being considered a case of reverse pitflow, pray tell?
He flounced from Abbie's PToS, and went FTB native for a while.
Even if it is theoretically an example, it ain't a good one, that's for sure.

Anyway, whatever. it's almost totally flow in one direction. If you want to be anal about it...

[spoiler]http://bbsimg.ngfiles.com/1/491000/ngbb ... b16d8c.jpg[/spoiler]

That's me done.

justinvacula
.
.
Posts: 1748
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2012 12:48 pm
Location: Pennsylvania
Contact:

Re: The Periodic Table's Younger, Sexier, Sibling Thread...

#5547

Post by justinvacula » Sat Jan 19, 2013 5:22 pm

Metalogic42 wrote:
Drosophelia Benson wrote:Ya, about that not turning your back in a crowded room – one of them is fundraising in order to attend Women in Secularism 2. Urggh.

Where is this quote?

welch
.
.
Posts: 9208
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2012 4:05 am
Contact:

Re: The Periodic Table's Younger, Sexier, Sibling Thread...

#5548

Post by welch » Sat Jan 19, 2013 5:24 pm

nippletwister wrote:
Louis wrote:Cunning Punt,

Pharyngula IS intimidating. Deliberately. This is a feature, not a bug. It's not for everyone. Just like I don't necessarily want to post at Place X because their environment doesn't suit me (for example I'd be fucked if there were a no swearing policy. I loves me a swear I do), I don't expect that Pharyngula gets everyone's juices flowing either. Why would I? Different strokes for different folks. It's not wrong to like or dislike the posting environment there, it just is a matter of personal preference.

As for the "you have to dot every i and cross every t" thing, again I disagree. Yes there are intemperate people who will jump on any error, I'm occasionally one of them if I've had a bad day and want to spread the joy around! ;-) But there is more nuance there than you suspect. What there isn't, at this current time (and this has been the case for a while now) is a lot of tolerance for leading people through the basics on certain subjects. It's not about disagreement, it's about having to explain the same damned thing a million times to a large number of rather clueless shitheads. I'm not including you, or specifically anyone, in that category by the way. I'll explain.

We've all dealt with creationists, right? We've all had to give them "science 101 for abominable shitheads", we've all referred them to the Index of Creationist Claims, perhaps by page number. Creationist claims are so familiar as to be painful, there's not a lot of change because they tend to rest on a few foundational misunderstandings or lies about things people commonly misunderstand. I hate to say it, because I am possibly putting myself in the position of Feminism Defender (and I really can't be arsed at the moment), but the social sciences, of which feminism is a part, are also worthy of academic study. There are facts, theories, details that need to be understood. Caricaturing it as random ideology is lazy and untrue.

For the last 2 or 3 years there has been an uptick in certain...let's say...phenomena. The number and unpleasantness of various species of sexists crawling out of the woodwork has increased. Some people, rightly or wrongly, are pissed off about leading every one of those people by the hand through the basics. They long, instead for a space where they can discuss things at a slightly less basic level without hand holding and where they can also discuss things that intersect with those things. It's that simple. A group of perfectly normal human beings wanting a place to converse about stuff that interests them without 99% of the bullshit that that seems to attract.

Oh and I'm not with the Horde on everything. No one in the Horde is with the Horde on everything. You might not have seen that, but I have. Quite a bit.
Welcome Louis! I've only been posting at the Pit for a couple of weeks, and found it a refreshing blast of honesty.

I have to say, if that is your honest report of pharyngula, you must ignore 80% or more of the comments, and give PZ numerous passes for his rabid, dishonest bullshit.

I started reading pharyngula in 2005, along with a number of other liberal atheist blogs and science/skepticism blogs. It has NEVER been a place where you could ask questions about feminism or social theory and expect anything but grief. A tiny number of commenters would try to be helpful, but even they always assumed they were 100% right, and were never willing to look at their beliefs critically, only preach. I've been hearing that bullshit "101" argument for YEARS, on pretty much every liberal feminist site, including pharyngula. There is no place where the issues are discussed critically, only places where you can learn how to make a better feminist kaleidoscope. The only difference in the past at pharyngula was that there was a slightly higher ratio of posts about atheism or science, instead of constant propaganda.

What I have noticed, is that the more PZ and some others attempt to shoehorn all of the atheist/skeptical/secular community into pseudoscientific, political feminism and social theory, he's getting a bit of pushback from genuine skeptics. So now, he, and many others, ban questioners, delete comments, edit comments, and make plainly outrageous and slanderous comments towards those who don't drink the kool-aid, such as openly comparing non-feminists who may have uttered the word "mangina" to mass murderers. This has become his norm, and the vast majority of his commenters eat it up and encourage it. Several other bloggers have followed suit, and are even attempting to pretty much run the atheist/skeptic/secularist conference scene, decide who gets to be a popular skeptic, and run constant campaigns defaming and lying about those who disagree across multiple blogs.

I'm more than passingly familiar with feminism and social justice efforts. I've probably read more of the relevant material than most of the bloggers and the vast majority of their commenters. But if you don't tow the full party line, you are pariah these days. Feminist activists and much of academic feminism and social justice efforts, and pretty much all of "internet feminism" are rife with manipulated stats, pseudoscience, anti-science, and are overtly hostile to skepticism. Yet even on the lowly blogs, this shit is unquestionable holy writ. They want to stuff it all into secular and skeptical movements, and it's not a good fit.

The people here, and on other blogs that are voicing concern, actually debating social issues, and fighting back against dishonest tactics, are mostly liberals, and many of them are women and minorities, yet we are demonized and slandered regularly. The pharyngula version of feminism is pretty toxic shit...ugly, superficial, anti-scientific, and mostly just patriarchy in lipstick, capitalizing on chivalry and artificial victimization, while ignoring any other perspectives....much like the last 30-40 years of "academic" feminism, it's utterly worthless outside it's own echo chamber. Yet if we dare question or point out flaws, we are compared to Marc Lepine, told that we're being "threatening", or "mansplaining", and quite frankly, having brain-dead idiots who can't even defend their positions say these things is the height of hypocrisy.

If pharyngula readers are the future of secularism or atheism, just admit it's a liberal religious cult and be done.
Louis is just full of shit about the character of pharyngula. It's not just feminism. Look at "pepsigate"? What was the reaction when anyone said Pepsi should be given a fair chance. Oh no, it will be just propaganda. What proof did PZ or anyone have for that claim?

Not a fucking lick.

When NatGeo took over, that's when PZ and Brayton started FTB. One of the reasons? Because NatGeo would CENSOR THEM. What *proof* did either of them have for that? None.

I guess Louis missed both of those. Must have been busy those weeks. Louis goes on about all that matters, and yet he ignores all the cases when claims are made sans proof.

Once again, we see the standard PZ/FTB practice of demanding others live up to a standard they refuse to apply to themselves.

But none of that is Louis's problem, and if we'd just go there and present proof of our claims, why, all these problems would just go away.

After all, it's not like PZ blanket banned us or anything...

Tristan
.
.
Posts: 83
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 8:29 pm
Contact:

Re: The Periodic Table's Younger, Sexier, Sibling Thread...

#5549

Post by Tristan » Sat Jan 19, 2013 5:24 pm

Dammit. Missed by a mile. I really need to brush up on my speedreading.

welch
.
.
Posts: 9208
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2012 4:05 am
Contact:

Re: The Periodic Table's Younger, Sexier, Sibling Thread...

#5550

Post by welch » Sat Jan 19, 2013 5:28 pm

Louis wrote:
Apples wrote:
Louis wrote:Pharyngula IS intimidating. Deliberately. This is a feature, not a bug. It's not for everyone. Just like I don't necessarily want to post at Place X because their environment doesn't suit me (for example I'd be fucked if there were a no swearing policy. I loves me a swear I do), I don't expect that Pharyngula gets everyone's juices flowing either. Why would I? Different strokes for different folks. It's not wrong to like or dislike the posting environment there, it just is a matter of personal preference.

As for the "you have to dot every i and cross every t" thing, again I disagree. Yes there are intemperate people who will jump on any error, I'm occasionally one of them if I've had a bad day and want to spread the joy around! ;-) But there is more nuance there than you suspect. What there isn't, at this current time (and this has been the case for a while now) is a lot of tolerance for leading people through the basics on certain subjects. It's not about disagreement, it's about having to explain the same damned thing a million times to a large number of rather clueless shitheads.
Intimidating? Maybe in the same way changing a shitty diaper is intimidating. There are some bright commenters at Pharyngula who have some well-rehearsed arguments against creationists. But the arguments -- if only you could call them "arguments" instead of flame-fests or struggle sessions -- about "social justice" and "misogyny" are fucking amateur-hour. Yes, Pharyngula is "not for everyone." For example, it's not for people who have a lot of intellectual integrity or have a really deep interest in honesty, fairness, and critical thinking -- especially when it comes to engaging those who are just as bright and well-informed as you are, but who are questioning things you may take for granted, for good or bad reasons.

Do you think BubbaRich was intimidated in this recent thread?

http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/ ... /#comments

Or do you think PZ called him a "fucking moron" and banned him because he was articulately asking for evidence of any real attempt to limit diversity in the atheist/skeptical movement? BubbaRich is, obviously, like NoelPlum, ERV, and many others, smarter than your average Pharyngulite. Not really an intimidating environment, just an infuriating and mediocre one if you're not giving pathetic PZ Myers a pass because he's an old friend from Talk Origins.

This isn't about PZ's being mean -- it's about his being smug, sloppy, intellectually-bigoted, and lazy when it comes to anything outside his narrow range of biological expertise, and managing his blog accordingly. It makes Pharyngula repulsive, and, what is worse, boring.

Well thanks for your unbiased views. I'll be intellectually dishonest, lacking in integrity, ignoring of honesty fairness and... oh I give up, wanna know what's boring, the endless whinging about FTB or PZ or Pharyngla or whatever, haven't you got anything better to do. Like I said, I'm not here to defend them (and yes, for the record, that thread with BubbaRich was on the pathetic side And?).

This is getting much more boring much faster than even I suspected, and I confess I had my suspicions. Isn't there anything more interesting than whinging about PZ/whatever? I'm reading big talk about arguments, tell you what, give me a killer shot, just one really great argument against some claim you think is made at Pharyngula and I'll go and post it over there with full credit, all the disclaimers anything you want. Fair? If PZ bans me, he bans me. He won't, and if it's a good argument, I bet it'll get a good treatment, of not well won't I have to eat humble pie, eh? Come on help me out, you're making me feel bad! I wish I did have an agenda now, it would have been so much easier than actually being curious.

I'd like to see the proof PZ had for his claims about how NatGeo was going to censor SciBlogs.

You run over and get that. I'll wait.

welch
.
.
Posts: 9208
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2012 4:05 am
Contact:

Re: The Periodic Table's Younger, Sexier, Sibling Thread...

#5551

Post by welch » Sat Jan 19, 2013 5:29 pm

Louis wrote:
nippletwister wrote:
Louis wrote:
cunt wrote:
<snip>

Obviously though you have some other point to make or you wouldn't be here. Don't keep us guessing. I'm taking your avoidance of the Nerd question as a "yes".
Point? Can't a bloke simply be curious?

And on the Nerd thing: It's not avoidance, I just don't care to play this silly game. Feel free to project all you want though. I'm sure it helps...something.

Uh, not to jump in here if I don't belong, but asking your honest opinion of a prominent, prolific, and fairly rabid commenter on a site you frequent isn't much of a "game" ...but I'm sure you feeling superior is important. Keep projecting!
Bullshit. Trying to get people to "dish dirt" on others is playing HA GOTCHA at it's finest. It's playground wank. You know it I know, my opinion of Nerd or PZ or you or anyone is meaningless to anything other than ongoing interblog rivalry and soap opera. Fun if you like that sort of thing. I don't.
But talking shot about us over there, that's totes mature.

Jan Steen
Pit Art Master
Pit Art Master
Posts: 3061
Joined: Sun Oct 14, 2012 3:18 am
Contact:

Re: The Periodic Table's Younger, Sexier, Sibling Thread...

#5552

Post by Jan Steen » Sat Jan 19, 2013 5:32 pm

This is getting much more boring much faster than even I suspected, and I confess I had my suspicions. Isn't there anything more interesting than whinging about PZ/whatever? I'm reading big talk about arguments, tell you what, give me a killer shot, just one really great argument against some claim you think is made at Pharyngula and I'll go and post it over there with full credit, all the disclaimers anything you want.
Louis didn't get it. He thinks it’s about arguments. No, ultimately it’s not. What bugs us, or makes us laugh, is the lying, the bullying, the slandering, the misrepresentation, the intellectual dishonesty, the flawed scepticism, in short, the cult-like behaviour, that is on display by the likes of PZ Myers, Ophelia Benson, Rebecca Watson and many members of their commentariat. That's what keeps us going.


ThreeFlangedJavis
.
.
Posts: 1252
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2012 3:13 am
Contact:

Re: The Periodic Table's Younger, Sexier, Sibling Thread...

#5554

Post by ThreeFlangedJavis » Sat Jan 19, 2013 5:33 pm

Louis. Nothing personal about my last post, honest. I am actually a little riled today with Benson's well-poisoning rubbish. She's been at it for a while and she's now gone over the top.

welch
.
.
Posts: 9208
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2012 4:05 am
Contact:

Re: The Periodic Table's Younger, Sexier, Sibling Thread...

#5555

Post by welch » Sat Jan 19, 2013 5:36 pm

bhoytony wrote:Thanks for inviting your friend over Phil. I wish I could be just like him, wise, only interested in REAL issues not the trivial nonsense that we waste our time on, in fact just all round superior to everyone here and at FTB. Truly he is a king among men.
I am right now crying, sobbing over my lack of Louis-ness

debaser71
.
.
Posts: 841
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2012 10:03 am
Contact:

Re: The Periodic Table's Younger, Sexier, Sibling Thread...

#5556

Post by debaser71 » Sat Jan 19, 2013 5:38 pm

Louis wrote:
AbsurdWalls wrote:
Louis wrote:
debaser71 wrote:But calling people rape enablers, mysoginists, or child molesters is hunk dory. Got it. Thanks.
If that's directed at me I'm pretty sure I never said anything like calling people child molesters is hunky dory without evidence. It's abuse, certainly. Don't know about rape enabler either. Not seen that one. I am mere mortal man after all, can't see everything. (Do I need to point out the irony of a poster on a forum where people uncritically post "hey it's just a joke" as some kind of defence for anything taking obvious offence at derogatory words? Heyyyyy it's just a joke, man. By your own petard be hung)...
To get this straight, you defend yourself (correctly) from any insinuation that you would use the insults debaser17 has listed, by saying you merely share a platform with those people. Fine. Then you claim that debaser17 sharing a platform with people who say "hey, it's just a joke" means his complaint is ironic?

You can't have it both ways.
Hahaha! Can't get anything past you. Nice one Centurion.

Except that's not what I said.

I don't believe I made any defence of myself, I don't need to. Debaser17 was putting words in my mouth (quite dishonest no?). The irony comes from the offence at words in an environment where offence at words has an established history of not being taken seriously. The equivalent would be if I at Pharyngula objected to tone where objections to tone are not taken seriously. So if I was viciously tearing into people, or enjoying its fruits in a tearing environment, and then when I was viciously torn into complained like a tone troll, that would be ironic, no?

I said that I had said nothing about calling people child molesters being okay. I thought I was clear about that. It seems you've read it as I said nothing *at Pharyngula* blah blah blah. My statement was global, your reading was limited to Pharyngula. Apologies if I didn't make that clear enough.
Maybe I should use quotes and such better but I was commenting about what that woman said in that screen shot posted by Justine Vacula. She said something about the "epitome of personal attacks". I did ask Louis questions, but in another post, which (and maybe I'm just blind) do not see any responses to. And from what I've read in subsequent pages, I don't really want Louis to respond. Questions withdrawn. Carry on and leave me out of it.

debaser71
.
.
Posts: 841
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2012 10:03 am
Contact:

Re: The Periodic Table's Younger, Sexier, Sibling Thread...

#5557

Post by debaser71 » Sat Jan 19, 2013 5:39 pm

Lol Justine, sorry Justin.

welch
.
.
Posts: 9208
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2012 4:05 am
Contact:

Re: The Periodic Table's Younger, Sexier, Sibling Thread...

#5558

Post by welch » Sat Jan 19, 2013 5:40 pm

Tristan wrote:
Louis wrote:Again, I'm not responsible for PZ, FTB commenters, or for you. It might shock you that I don't base any of my opinion of slymepitters on what PZ or anyone allied says, I base it on what I see of the few slympitters that have come to Pharyngula. In other words, my opinion of them, thus far, has been low, this is a place that houses them. That's all I know. Does that mean ZOMG ALL SLYMEPITTERS ARE DAMNED BY ASSOCIATION? Nope, well not to me. As I said, PZ and others are free to set their own limits.
No, you base it on the comments of the few "slymepitters" you've seen on Pharyngula. Many (a majority?) of the people here have first-hand experience (and many have screenshots) of their calm, rational posts at FTB blogs being either memory-holed or never let through in the first place, at the same time as stuff from truly nasty and/or easily shot down shit is let stand. This has happened far to often, and to far too many people to be an accident: PZ, Ophelia, Greta and Thibeault (at least) actively filter the comments of their opposition to ensure that people such as yourself end up with exactly the impression they want you to have.

No, no, we have to stop this whining, and just go over to FTB and rationally present our claims with proof. Then all will be well. Louis said so, and Louis is always right. Just ask Louis.

welch
.
.
Posts: 9208
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2012 4:05 am
Contact:

Re: The Periodic Table's Younger, Sexier, Sibling Thread...

#5559

Post by welch » Sat Jan 19, 2013 5:41 pm

Lsuoma wrote:Meh, fucked up the quote.

N00B! LOLZ

AbsurdWalls
.
.
Posts: 863
Joined: Sat Dec 29, 2012 3:50 pm
Contact:

Re: The Periodic Table's Younger, Sexier, Sibling Thread...

#5560

Post by AbsurdWalls » Sat Jan 19, 2013 5:43 pm

welch wrote:No, no, we have to stop this whining, and just go over to FTB and rationally present our claims with proof. Then all will be well. Louis said so, and Louis is always right. Just ask Louis.
I'm saving my one post on FTB for the day when the bell tolls for me and it is necessary for me to defend myself.

Pitchguest
.
.
Posts: 3775
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 3:44 pm
Contact:

Re: The Periodic Table's Younger, Sexier, Sibling Thread...

#5561

Post by Pitchguest » Sat Jan 19, 2013 5:44 pm

Damnit, missed Louis catching up on the last few pages. Anyway. Two more people!

Welcome to Vicky (and her ample breasts, well done!) and Louis (if you'll stick around)!

Tristan
.
.
Posts: 83
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 8:29 pm
Contact:

Re: The Periodic Table's Younger, Sexier, Sibling Thread...

#5562

Post by Tristan » Sat Jan 19, 2013 5:44 pm

Jan Steen wrote:
This is getting much more boring much faster than even I suspected, and I confess I had my suspicions. Isn't there anything more interesting than whinging about PZ/whatever? I'm reading big talk about arguments, tell you what, give me a killer shot, just one really great argument against some claim you think is made at Pharyngula and I'll go and post it over there with full credit, all the disclaimers anything you want.
Louis didn't get it. He thinks it’s about arguments. No, ultimately it’s not. What bugs us, or makes us laugh, is the lying, the bullying, the slandering, the misrepresentation, the intellectual dishonesty, the flawed scepticism, in short, the cult-like behaviour, that is on display by the likes of PZ Myers, Ophelia Benson, Rebecca Watson and many members of their commentariat. That's what keeps us going.
This. A thousand times this.

welch
.
.
Posts: 9208
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2012 4:05 am
Contact:

Re: The Periodic Table's Younger, Sexier, Sibling Thread...

#5563

Post by welch » Sat Jan 19, 2013 5:49 pm

ThreeFlangedJavis wrote:
Louis wrote:
ThreeFlangedJavis wrote:
<snip>

And does it never occur to you that some of the people who need re-educating actually know an awful lot about social studies and are disturbed at the warped application of terms like 'privilege' and 'patriarchy'? I would suggest that there are things about social studies that the Pharyngulites need to understand. Do you think that Pitters generally are unaware of social studies concepts? Your analogy with creationism highlights the problem. Feminist dogma is not FACT. It is subjective and the flavour of the moment at FTB requires that ridiculous assumptions are made about male and female experience. It also applies academic concepts like Patriarchy and privilege to individuals which is to use them outside of their intended application.

Your description of Pharyngula is not new to many of us. A lot of us have suffered the same Kool Aid poisoning. With respect, you appear to be labouring under the usual delusion that Pharyngula is populated by learned, intellectually honest people and that their critics are ignorant. It's not an issue of Pharyngula not being to peoples' taste. The horde love to make out that people are flouncing ,when in fact they have either been banned or got fed up with just about every statement they make being twisted beyond all recognition.
No I don't think the 'pitters are generally anything. Fuck me isn't that obvious yet?

Yes I do think there are loads and loads of things the pharyngulites (me included) can learn. GO AND TELL THEM. Or if that doesn't work, set up a separate place like this and dedicate your effort there. Where's the problem? If this stuff is so easy to rebut, detail it and rebut it. Please. You'll be doing me a favour. Instead it's team this, kool aid that, why?

What did I say I was here explicitly not to do? Defend every blog and poster of FTB. I don't care about your issues with people on FTB. It's not my problem.

Feminist dogma isn't fact? Subjective? Well that was specific and detailed, thanks. Doubtless some elements of feminism are dogma and are subjective. Sure. No argument there. Not all of it is though. And for me those are the interesting bits. Is that another example of this nuance I've heard so much about?

Kool aid? Delusion? Did I claim every poster on FTB was a social sciences whizz? No. Did I say that there are some relevant experts there who do do things rather well? Yes. Did I say all critics are ignorant no? Hell, if you're going to engage at least engage with what I said and a little less bitterness.
Did I say team anything? The reason I use the word Kool Aid is because you are using well worn descriptions of the Pharyngula culture which don't match the reality, at least as far as I can see (not to mention a shed-load of other people). That may be patronising, but that's how I see it. Some of us have been following Pharyngula for years and know very well what it feels like to be an insider and be impressed by the apparent intellectual rigour. I for, for one, am well aware of how the place operates.

You seem to be missing the point. There is no nuance when disagreeing, especially as an outsider. If you want to be called a liar, told you are misrepresenting your qualifications, an MRA, hate women, have your words twisted and trashed as a narcissist when you try to correct the misrepresentations, then you can disagree with the Horde. Whether or not everyone there is like that is irrelevant. PZ Myers enourages this shit and is on hand to ban with a dismissive strawman.You are correct, this is a about ethics. Honest people don't run blogs like that, nor do they call people racists without any evidence whatsoever or liken entire groups of people to Mark Lepine without a shred of evidence. Nor do they write inflammatory posts calling people evil and then upping the ante when their errors are pointed out. Call me cynical, but those kinds of things don't get covered under the 'everyone has flaws' defence. We seem to have different ideas of what a cool guy is.

Am I bitter? No, but I should be. So we are distracting ourselves? When I need advice on how to react to being slandered and being used as a villain in someone's victim narrative then I might ask you.

Oh yeah, also, I appear to have missed Louis calling PZ out for his post on how we're all like Marc Lepine. I guess PZ must have shown him proof of that.

welch
.
.
Posts: 9208
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2012 4:05 am
Contact:

Re: The Periodic Table's Younger, Sexier, Sibling Thread...

#5564

Post by welch » Sat Jan 19, 2013 5:51 pm

Pitchguest wrote:Damnit, missed Louis catching up on the last few pages. Anyway. Two more people!

Welcome to Vicky (and her ample breasts, well done!) and Louis (if you'll stick around)!
Starting the Louis dead pool now. He'll be naught but a memory by...oh...march first.

LMU
.
.
Posts: 617
Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2012 7:40 am
Contact:

Re: The Periodic Table's Younger, Sexier, Sibling Thread...

#5565

Post by LMU » Sat Jan 19, 2013 5:52 pm

If Louis needs an issue, how about: What evidence is there that there is rampant sexism/misogyny/harassment at skeptic and atheist conferences? What evidence is there that harassment policies would be a good solution? If it is so easy to argue at Pharyngula, try having him bring this up there as an experiment.

Also there is now a thread about how capricious and censorious are mods are. I'm waiting for someone to say "Yes" so Lsuoma can go all flew on them and ask them what they want ;)

Cunning Punt
.
.
Posts: 1335
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2012 10:50 am
Contact:

Re: The Periodic Table's Younger, Sexier, Sibling Thread...

#5566

Post by Cunning Punt » Sat Jan 19, 2013 5:52 pm

Okay. I believe you've gone and maybe ain't coming back, but anyway I will respond.
Louis wrote:Cunning Punt,
Pharyngula IS intimidating. Deliberately. This is a feature, not a bug. It's not for everyone. Just like I don't necessarily want to post at Place X because their environment doesn't suit me (for example I'd be fucked if there were a no swearing policy. I loves me a swear I do), I don't expect that Pharyngula gets everyone's juices flowing either. Why would I? Different strokes for different folks. It's not wrong to like or dislike the posting environment there, it just is a matter of personal preference.
I get that. Not every place is for everyone. But FTB seeks to be the last word on how to think and behave for the entire atheist/skeptic/freethought community. The bloggers leave their (virtual) confines and tell others (Grothe, Radford, Shermer, and many others) what they are doing wrong and how to change it up. Now, criticism is fine, but like I said before, it's the "my way or the highway" approach that pisses me off. And going back through people's output and digging up stuff that up to previously had not been noticed by said blogger (hello, Ophelia!), because now they are the enemy. But when they get similar treatment, it's "oh noes! I'm being stalked!"
Louis wrote:As for the "you have to dot every i and cross every t" thing, again I disagree. Yes there are intemperate people who will jump on any error, I'm occasionally one of them if I've had a bad day and want to spread the joy around! ;-) But there is more nuance there than you suspect.
Sorry, not my experience. You wouldn't want to discount my lived experience, would you? ;)
(Now there's an argument stopper! You can't come back at me now!)
Louis wrote:
What there isn't, at this current time (and this has been the case for a while now) is a lot of tolerance for leading people through the basics on certain subjects. It's not about disagreement, it's about having to explain the same damned thing a million times to a large number of rather clueless shitheads. I'm not including you, or specifically anyone, in that category by the way. I'll explain.

We've all dealt with creationists, right? We've all had to give them "science 101 for abominable shitheads", we've all referred them to the Index of Creationist Claims, perhaps by page number. Creationist claims are so familiar as to be painful, there's not a lot of change because they tend to rest on a few foundational misunderstandings or lies about things people commonly misunderstand. I hate to say it, because I am possibly putting myself in the position of Feminism Defender (and I really can't be arsed at the moment), but the social sciences, of which feminism is a part, are also worthy of academic study. There are facts, theories, details that need to be understood. Caricaturing it as random ideology is lazy and untrue.
I agree, at least as a general principle. How some people approach it could be called an ideology. You probably even agree with that. (Radfem separatists for example.) Then we are left maybe disagreeing as to where that line is drawn.

And I have been pretty fucking rude to some creationists online myself. I think the social sciences are worthy of study, including feminism. But. Creationists claims about the world are simply factually wrong. It's a hard science and they are ignoring the evidence.

But. Social sciences are not hard sciences. Plus we are not even talking about the social sciences. The devil is in the details. The details about who said what to whom and should they have said something else. The question of, for example, is it appropriate to excoriate Stefi McGraw in front of her colleagues and say she is "parroting misogynistic thought" a reasonable way to deal with the issue is not a question that deals with hard facts about the world. These type of questions are about humans with all their funny foibles and unpredictabilities and there isn't a hard and fast answer to that question. There is legitimate room for disagreement. The question of what should have been done about Harriet Hall wearing a T shirt that says, "I feel safe and welcome at TAM" is not a question that has a hard and fast answer like 2+2=4. The idea that I am a clueless shithead that just needs to be instructed in the right answer to this, as thought I were a creationist, is arrogant. (And I know you're not personally calling me a shithead, although I don't care if you do. A few bad words don't bother me.)
Louis wrote: For the last 2 or 3 years there has been an uptick in certain...let's say...phenomena. The number and unpleasantness of various species of sexists crawling out of the woodwork has increased.
I am personally of the opinion that the threat is greatly exaggerated. Did Stefi McGraw crawl out of the woodwork? Sara Mayhew? Ben Radford? Are these people sexist? What about Monopod Man with his evil upskirt photos? Didn't happen. An innocent person was slandered. But I remember Greta Christina at the time asking for suggestions, but she didn't want to hear any skeptical comments about whether it was true or not. And what else have we got? Rude words on the internet from people fapping in their basement. And there is plenty of that to go around.
Louis wrote:
Some people, rightly or wrongly, are pissed off about leading every one of those people by the hand through the basics. They long, instead for a space where they can discuss things at a slightly less basic level without hand holding and where they can also discuss things that intersect with those things. It's that simple. A group of perfectly normal human beings wanting a place to converse about stuff that interests them without 99% of the bullshit that that seems to attract.
What's a "less basic" level? Is that a level where you accept buzz words like "privilege" and "patriarchy" without question? Is that all it takes? Again, see the arrogance is assuming that a grown up like me needs instructions in how to be a decent person. (And remember, I've said I already am on board with the basics message. The devil is in the details.)
Louis wrote: Oh and I'm not with the Horde on everything. No one in the Horde is with the Horde on everything. You might not have seen that, but I have. Quite a bit.
Frankly, I think you and Josh should get a room. That's a joke, not a good one.

ThreeFlangedJavis
.
.
Posts: 1252
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2012 3:13 am
Contact:

Re: The Periodic Table's Younger, Sexier, Sibling Thread...

#5567

Post by ThreeFlangedJavis » Sat Jan 19, 2013 5:54 pm

Well, I was going to cut this Louis guy some slack, although he did seem to like tap dancing. Sorry Phil, but this guy is an idiot. Seriously, he can't tell the difference between using a choice insult and calling them a child molester. So he challenges us for a 'killer argument' out of nowhere, about what he doesn't say, and then runs off.

I'm thinking he's starstruck by the magnificent intellects and learned arguments of his peers. Maybe he'll look behind the curtain sometime and realise that the numbnuts where just winging it to win arguments.

d4m10n
.
.
Posts: 1518
Joined: Thu Jul 05, 2012 5:17 am
Location: OKC
Contact:

Re: The Periodic Table's Younger, Sexier, Sibling Thread...

#5568

Post by d4m10n » Sat Jan 19, 2013 5:58 pm

justinvacula wrote:Thanks for the support so far to help send me to Women in Secularism 2!

$251 so far donated...and Damion will be 'dressing me' for Friday :o
Which t-shirt will he be selecting?

http://www.rockethub.com/projects/13633 ... cularism-2
I'm open to suggestions. Decius, you got any new designs coming up?

LMU
.
.
Posts: 617
Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2012 7:40 am
Contact:

Re: The Periodic Table's Younger, Sexier, Sibling Thread...

#5569

Post by LMU » Sat Jan 19, 2013 6:00 pm

So shortly after julian flounced off of the A+ forum, a new julian appears on the secular social justice forum (the current form of the not safe space forum). Do we know if this is the same julian we know and love from ftb?

bhoytony
.
.
Posts: 3016
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2012 9:56 am
Contact:

Re: The Periodic Table's Younger, Sexier, Sibling Thread...

#5570

Post by bhoytony » Sat Jan 19, 2013 6:04 pm

LMU wrote:So shortly after julian flounced off of the A+ forum, a new julian appears on the secular social justice forum (the current form of the not safe space forum). Do we know if this is the same julian we know and love from ftb?
Just go there and call him a spic. You should be able to tell by the reply.

Lsuoma
Fascist Tit
Posts: 10529
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 5:58 pm
Location: Punggye-ri
Contact:

Re: The Periodic Table's Younger, Sexier, Sibling Thread...

#5571

Post by Lsuoma » Sat Jan 19, 2013 6:04 pm

LMU wrote:So shortly after julian flounced off of the A+ forum, a new julian appears on the secular social justice forum (the current form of the not safe space forum). Do we know if this is the same julian we know and love from ftb?
Go and call him a spic.

Lsuoma
Fascist Tit
Posts: 10529
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 5:58 pm
Location: Punggye-ri
Contact:

Re: The Periodic Table's Younger, Sexier, Sibling Thread...

#5572

Post by Lsuoma » Sat Jan 19, 2013 6:05 pm

Heh. Didn't see Bajin's reply before posting.

Michael J
.
.
Posts: 911
Joined: Sun Oct 21, 2012 9:42 pm
Location: Australia
Contact:

Re: The Periodic Table's Younger, Sexier, Sibling Thread...

#5573

Post by Michael J » Sat Jan 19, 2013 6:13 pm

Gumby wrote:Just leaving this here...

http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd24 ... a85365.jpg
If these guys were rational that is what they would have done 12 months ago. They can't resist picking up on criticisms

welch
.
.
Posts: 9208
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2012 4:05 am
Contact:

Re: The Periodic Table's Younger, Sexier, Sibling Thread...

#5574

Post by welch » Sat Jan 19, 2013 6:15 pm

Michael J wrote:
Gumby wrote:Just leaving this here...

http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd24 ... a85365.jpg
If these guys were rational that is what they would have done 12 months ago. They can't resist picking up on criticisms
It's a good thing he provided proof for his claims.

Pitchguest
.
.
Posts: 3775
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 3:44 pm
Contact:

Re: The Periodic Table's Younger, Sexier, Sibling Thread...

#5575

Post by Pitchguest » Sat Jan 19, 2013 6:17 pm

Alright, Louis. I've read the evasive answers you've given and I ask you now, genuinely: what don't you get? You've been a regular over at Pharyngula long enough to know PZ Myers doesn't play fair. By pretending that you don't know about Myers' practice of banning anyone from the 'pit, either preemptively or as soon as they post, is disingenuous. Don't bullshit us.

Also don't give us that shit about whose "side" you're on. You know full well that no one on the 'pit is a misogynist, a sexist, treats women badly. That's the nonsense line straight from PZ Myers' handbook. You're mates with Phil; you know he is as a person. Would he spend any amount of time in the company of known misogynists and sexists, or whatever gets prattled on by PZ and his commentariat (you excluded from this, I hope)?

I think you know the answer. Of course we don't get the opportunity to respond to the constant allegations levelled against us, because we're banned - and even if those not banned should post, the content wouldn't be addressed, they would simply get labelled "slymepitter", banslapped and sent to the dungeon. However if you are serious about taking our concerns to Pharyngula in good faith, then you should ask why PZ is so quick to generalise when he clearly doesn't know what he's talking about, why commenters like Wowbagger is free to commit verbal diarrhoea and accuse the entirety of the Slymepit as symphatising with jokes about throwing acid into someone's face or equate it to a kind of atheist KKK, and lastly how any of this is supposed to create a forum to discuss ideas creatively. Because right now it's a fucking echo chamber.

Oh, and also ask them why they are so eager to act like professional victims. Why is PZ acting like what Jerry Conlon wrote is an actual, credible threat, and why is he keen on giving Ophelia ammunition in that respect? It was a fucking joke. Admittedly a joke in poor taste and fucking stupid to boot, but a joke, so why is he pretending that it is? Since you're a regular at Pharyngula and you've spoken to PZ on Google+, perhaps you can give me some insight into his mind on this. Because it's fucking beyond me. Ophelia, too, is being a fucking clownFluevog about it.

Although I will give you credit for making an account and actually talking to us. You get props for that. If the others at FTB were so keen, then maybe we could actually have a conversation.

AbsurdWalls
.
.
Posts: 863
Joined: Sat Dec 29, 2012 3:50 pm
Contact:

Re: The Periodic Table's Younger, Sexier, Sibling Thread...

#5576

Post by AbsurdWalls » Sat Jan 19, 2013 6:18 pm

Michael J wrote:
Gumby wrote:Just leaving this here...

http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd24 ... a85365.jpg
If these guys were rational that is what they would have done 12 months ago. They can't resist picking up on criticisms
This is more sinister than I thought. Initially I was confused: So because I post here you're going to blacklist my username, dig up my email address and personal details, and use that to try to prevent me interacting? Fine, not that I ever commented on FTB anyway, but if I wanted to I could easily make a new identity. I mean, what Josh is saying is basically the status quo.

However, what I think he means is that he wants them to brook no dissent whatsoever. If you disagree, you're a pitter, and you're banned. Still not a million miles from the current state of affairs in some areas of the community, but a bit chilling nonetheless.

Mark Neil
.
.
Posts: 87
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2013 1:39 am
Contact:

Re: The Periodic Table's Younger, Sexier, Sibling Thread...

#5577

Post by Mark Neil » Sat Jan 19, 2013 6:21 pm

Louis wrote:

I'm picking the side which doesn't think dehumanisation of women is okay
I'm curious, how does dismissing the contributions of all the women here in the pit, by calling the content and attitudes of the contributors of this site "dumb guy stuff" (your own words, not asking you to defend others actions here http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/ ... ent-539465 ), not dehumanize them?

And while we're on the subject of shit you've said, perhaps you can explain, given your claim you're willing to call a liar a liar (presumably, this applies to FTBers too), why you hold the pit to a higher standard (http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/ ... ent-539462). You accuse the pit of not looking at things as they are intended, yet we routinely see the FTB crew do precisely the same thing, and often call it harassment (such as Vacula's FB criticism of OB's equating herself with acid attack victims being called harassment and "a form of intimidation" Perhaps you should hold the FTBers to the same standard you hold the pit to... and see how long you last.

ThreeFlangedJavis
.
.
Posts: 1252
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2012 3:13 am
Contact:

Re: The Periodic Table's Younger, Sexier, Sibling Thread...

#5578

Post by ThreeFlangedJavis » Sat Jan 19, 2013 6:23 pm

BarnOwl wrote:
I lived in Tooting for one of the three years I was in London (Clapham/Battersea for the other two). In the summer we'd cycle over to the Tooting Bec Lido for a swim - it is awesome, highly recommended! I remember reading somewhere that "Bec" refers to a small brook or stream.
Used to live just off Ambleside Ave near Tooting Common myself. Can't say I swam in the Lido, but I used to jog around the common quite a bit. Richmond Park was the Park to visit. If only I'd had the readies to live down that way. Tooting Common gave me a bit of a complex because I was always being propositioned by prostitutes. Maybe I'm just creepy looking!

Mykeru
.
.
Posts: 4758
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2012 6:52 am
Contact:

Re: Louis

#5579

Post by Mykeru » Sat Jan 19, 2013 6:24 pm

Why are you allowing this disingenuous little prick wind you all up?

Lsuoma
Fascist Tit
Posts: 10529
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 5:58 pm
Location: Punggye-ri
Contact:

Re: The Periodic Table's Younger, Sexier, Sibling Thread...

#5580

Post by Lsuoma » Sat Jan 19, 2013 6:28 pm

AbsurdWalls wrote: This is more sinister than I thought. Initially I was confused: So because I post here you're going to blacklist my username, dig up my email address and personal details, and use that to try to prevent me interacting? Fine, not that I ever commented on FTB anyway, but if I wanted to I could easily make a new identity. I mean, what Josh is saying is basically the status quo.

However, what I think he means is that he wants them to brook no dissent whatsoever. If you disagree, you're a pitter, and you're banned. Still not a million miles from the current state of affairs in some areas of the community, but a bit chilling nonetheless.
You ought to read what Ed Brayton said about Thunderf00t on the private back-channel the FfTBers have:

“I want to do whatever it takes to make sure that he is essentially drummed out of this movement, never invited to speak anywhere again and is forever a pariah.”

That's what they want for everyone who doesn't toe their line: they want to disappear them (==us, including you, now) like what was planned for Dunbar in Catch-22.

Locked