Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

[Lurkion]

Normalising pedophilia, contributing to pedo-culture, or just an lazy excuse for me to post something I found funny?

http://i.imgur.com/105lrpo.jpg

The only explanation for the first link is that he was looking at that site too.

[Ericb]

Normalising pedophilia, contributing to pedo-culture, or just an lazy excuse for me to post something I found funny?

http://i.imgur.com/105lrpo.jpg

The only explanation for the first link is that he was looking at that site too.

But he was probably just doing "research" for an article on the sin hat he's writing. Yeah, that works ...

[acathode]

Western society probably fits the first definition (depending on how you define "common" and whether that's relative to other cultures), but it doesn't fit the second. The prevalent attitude is that rape is one of the most heinous crimes imaginable, and that rapists are the lowest of the low. An yeah, that even counts guys who rape girls while they're passed out drunk

First definition? I only see one definition listing two criteria? Western society do pass the first criteria, but not the second.

[cunt]

Western society probably fits the first definition (depending on how you define "common" and whether that's relative to other cultures), but it doesn't fit the second. The prevalent attitude is that rape is one of the most heinous crimes imaginable, and that rapists are the lowest of the low. An yeah, that even counts guys who rape girls while they're passed out drunk

First definition? I only see one definition listing two criteria? Western society do pass the first criteria, but not the second.

Stop harassing me.

[Reap]

Normalising pedophilia, contributing to pedo-culture, or just an lazy excuse for me to post something I found funny?

http://i.imgur.com/105lrpo.jpg

The only explanation for the first link is that he was looking at that site too.

But he was probably just doing "research" for an article on the sin hat he's writing. Yeah, that works ...

Here's an idea..... maybe remove the fuckin post. I'm not an expert on these things so...

[justinvacula]

Say cunt a few more times michael, that will make the drivel you write seem legit to the idiots you're preaching to.

OBVIOUS PULP FICTION REFERENCE IS OBVIOUS.

http://i.imgur.com/CQg2W6S.jpg

[justinvacula]

going to bed, you can all sit around masturbating to your smug sense of self importance for the rest of the night. 'OMG the guy who hates us started his own blog, attack attack!!!'

heh....

Don't like it, don't fucking read it ass wipes.

Tell that to Ophelia Benson and others who hunt for the language they don't like.

[Wonderist]

Bloody awesome ongoing work, confronting and challenging Nugent's challenge, guys! I'm about 100,000 years behind on the slime pit thread, so haven't seen the behind the scenes stuff going on, but I can tell it's going on from the excellent comments made on Nugent's blog. Special kudos to Apples and everyone else who's been doing the tedious work of dredging up old quotes from FTB and links, etc.! That kind of support effort is crucial, and much appreciated.

(One minor suggestion: I read Vacula's response blog, and it had some examples from Ophelia as well as kajillions from Pharyngula. Everyone knows Pharyngula's a nasty place, and they've grown to accept that as a kind of 'necessary evil', I think. It create a much bigger impact, IMO, to have more examples of foul language (including not just foul words, but foul meanings) from Benson's blog, as a more direct response to her demands for language purity. Just MHO.)

Also, big kudos to JCW (solid fucking posts, man), apparent newcomer (?) John Brown (keeping ye olde slyme pit tenacious spirit alive ;-) ), and Pitchguest (all around kickass solid debunkery and calling-of-bullshittery). And I'm sorry my short term memory has failed me, but there are several others who deserve mega kudos as well. Oh, Justicar, of course (does he at least still read here?).

My honest opinion: I sincerely think that Michael Nugent is coming at this with honest, sincere intentions. I think he's bought into the FTB narrative, and I agree with JCW that he's exhibiting similar levels of hypocrisy by having a double-standard in terms of 'morally acceptable'. However, I think JCW's criticism goes perhaps one step too far in attributing a kind of 'intention' or 'wilful hypocrisy' to it. Perhaps I'm misreading JCW's comment; I thought it was a fantastic comment, but when I read it as if I were Nugent reading it, I could get the feeling that Nugent might think, "Perhaps he has a point about double standards, but I certainly didn't *intend* to 'quote mine' to put them in the 'worst possible' light. :oops: " And, from that reaction, it's just an irrational nudge from the ego :o over the hump to this kind of rationalization, "Well! That's just a malicious misreading of my intentions! :evil: Rassan frassan JCW mumble mumble.... :evil: :evil: :evil: "

Again, IMHO: It's early yet. Nugent has plenty of time to show if he can come round to reason. Give him a chance. Don't start pushing his buttons too early, because this tends to turn potential allies into ego-resentful entrenched enemies. I didn't follow Dillahunty's line of thinking during CuriousGate, nor the kinds of responses from critics he was dealing with, but I get the feeling that his reversion back to a kind of passive support of A+/FTB/whatever could at least have *something* to do with too-early button pushing from eager critics trying to shame him into cutting ties with A+/FTB/whatever. The same kind of thing seems to me to be a potential risk here as well. It may be that Nugent gets served the evidence and he sees his own hypocrisy. *But*, if he develops resentment towards individuals at the slyme pit in the process, then he will become very reluctant to show any support in the future. Instead of becoming an active dissenter against FTB nonsense, he could simply give up on the whole affair, call it a pointless holy war, and withdraw from the whole thing altogether. Nothing is certain; it's about probabilities, and trying to behave, depending on the situation and person involved, in such a way as to maximize the chance of a positive outcome (active dissenter vs. FTB), and minimize the chance of a negative outcome (potential ally withdraws or becomes resentful, entrenched enemy). We know which outcome is most rational; but humans aren't entirely rational, and *are* influenced by irrational things like 'how you say it'. Just a practical matter of fact about reality. IMHO.

[Wonderist]

Oooh, last thing! Forgot! I found it funny and ironic that when referring to Scientology and FTB vs. Slyme Pit, that the initials SP already stand for SlymePit. Seriously. How fucking fortuitous is that?! We literally *are* their SPs.

[katamari Damassi]

My definition of rape culture is that rape, just like violence, is downplayed in our popular media and personal interactions for it's severity and potential to destroy.

If anything rape is overplayed in our culture. The concept of the crime of rape is an anachronism; an ancient crime against property. It was devastating to the victim because if it was known a woman had been raped it would destroy her chances of being married(unless she was forced to marry her attacker), or if married she would likely be divorced(and divorce is a best case scenario)by her husband. And in the past a woman's status was intrinsically linked to her marriage or her prospects of marriage. It is a concept born of sex negativity and true patriarchy. Yet in our supposedly enlightened age it carries almost the same stigma as in the past.
Eliminate the crime of rape. Simply class it as another degree of battery. Remove the shame and the stigma. After all there is nothing inherently more damaging about rape than any other act of violence, except for the psychological power we give it by reinforcing the stigma.

[Za-zen]

Meeza thinka Mr Walsh as a keeper of the holy book of inclusiveness has stepped into Michaels Mess to tell us all why, the slymepit blasphemy is so much worse than the Atheist Ireland blasphemy.

He needs to sharpen his tool before doing so though:

I’m not sure any of the posts on AI’s forum were worse than some of those on the Slymepit. Leaving aside the much more graphic nature of the post on the Slymepit, the crucial difference for me is that the quotes Michael highlighted were almost all personal attacks on specific named people, whereas the posts you listed on AI were mostly generic jokes

Rephrase: i like the shit we spout at AI, and if we name people, they are not our people, they are priests and popes, non people so to speak, so they are totally fair game. Whereas the pit names people who are people, so they fall under my value judgement as personal attacks. So speaketh the keeper.

Perhaps you’re not familiar with the nature of an internet forum but once posts have fallen off the first page, they’re rarely seen again. (Until someone starts searching for keywords so they can be outraged, of course.)

Bingo, you just sunk your ship. michael of course didn't scour beyond the first page of the Pyt, and most definitely didn't use the search function so he could be outraged.

Regarding the comments on the blasphemy post, I find it difficult to believe that you’re acting in good faith. For example, you list “Praising Hitler” as one of your criticisms when it should be obvious that this is meant ironically. Did you really believe from reading that, that someone was actually praising Hitler?

Thanks for splainin mockery to us, we use it quite a bit. But you seem to have missed the salient point, we have fuck all problem with it, we aren't drawing an arbitrary line in the sand, dictated by the sensibilities and dogma of ideologues. You are. Therefore it is you who stand accused of hypocrisy, and very very wonky mindwank.

Finding a balance between free expression and a welcoming environment can be difficult, and is something most Internet forums struggle with. Some try to abandon the struggle by picking one of two extremes: allowing nothing potentially offensive or allowing absolutely anything. Both are doomed to failure

Can you smell that, it's the smell of a false dichotomy. Topped off with a Randi prize winner! You're doomed! Doomed i say! Why? Because i say so! And i am the keeper, it is my job to keep shifting my value as to what's permissible dependant upon who says it, who they say it too, and who is watching.

[Lurkion]

My honest opinion: I sincerely think that Michael Nugent is coming at this with honest, sincere intentions. I think he's bought into the FTB narrative, and I agree with JCW that he's exhibiting similar levels of hypocrisy by having a double-standard in terms of 'morally acceptable'.

SNIP

Again, IMHO: It's early yet. Nugent has plenty of time to show if he can come round to reason. Give him a chance. Don't start pushing his buttons too early, because this tends to turn potential allies into ego-resentful entrenched enemies.

I agree. I think Nugent's actions to date have reflected a reasonable guy who is genuinely working his way through the problem. He retracted his comments about the WBB when we called him on them. I think he's having some difficulty with his current friends because he trusts them (probably with good reason) to be reasonable people in the past, that it seems contrary to his previous experience for this mob to be acting unreasonably.

For example, a lot of us probably thought at least mildly positively of PZ a few years back. I know I did (but, tbh, didn't know very much about him).

tl;dr Nugent's not quite one of the FTB mob and I don't think he's beyond being reasoned with. It seems the comments to date on Nugent's page suggest that everyone's aware of this but I wanted to emphasise the point :D.

[Lurkion]

Meeza thinka Mr Walsh as a keeper of the holy book of inclusiveness has stepped into Michaels Mess to tell us all why, the slymepit blasphemy is so much worse than the Atheist Ireland blasphemy.

He needs to sharpen his tool before doing so though:

I’m not sure any of the posts on AI’s forum were worse than some of those on the Slymepit. Leaving aside the much more graphic nature of the post on the Slymepit, the crucial difference for me is that the quotes Michael highlighted were almost all personal attacks on specific named people, whereas the posts you listed on AI were mostly generic jokes

Rephrase: i like the shit we spout at AI, and if we name people, they are not our people, they are priests and popes, non people so to speak, so they are totally fair game. Whereas the pit names people who are people, so they fall under my value judgement as personal attacks. So speaketh the keeper.

Perhaps you’re not familiar with the nature of an internet forum but once posts have fallen off the first page, they’re rarely seen again. (Until someone starts searching for keywords so they can be outraged, of course.)

Bingo, you just sunk your ship. michael of course didn't scour beyond the first page of the Pyt, and most definitely didn't use the search function so he could be outraged.

Regarding the comments on the blasphemy post, I find it difficult to believe that you’re acting in good faith. For example, you list “Praising Hitler” as one of your criticisms when it should be obvious that this is meant ironically. Did you really believe from reading that, that someone was actually praising Hitler?

Thanks for splainin mockery to us, we use it quite a bit. But you seem to have missed the salient point, we have fuck all problem with it, we aren't drawing an arbitrary line in the sand, dictated by the sensibilities and dogma of ideologues. You are. Therefore it is you who stand accused of hypocrisy, and very very wonky mindwank.

Finding a balance between free expression and a welcoming environment can be difficult, and is something most Internet forums struggle with. Some try to abandon the struggle by picking one of two extremes: allowing nothing potentially offensive or allowing absolutely anything. Both are doomed to failure

Can you smell that, it's the smell of a false dichotomy. Topped off with a Randi prize winner! You're doomed! Doomed i say! Why? Because i say so! And i am the keeper, it is my job to keep shifting my value as to what's permissible dependant upon who says it, who they say it too, and who is watching.

Is he getting flack from the higher-ups (i.e. Nugent) about the state of the forum?

Nugent only got appointed a moderator in the past 24-odd hours. I think he might be disappointed in the level of moderation at the AI boards.

[Apples]

My definition of rape culture is that rape, just like violence, is downplayed in our popular media and personal interactions for it's severity and potential to destroy.

If anything rape is overplayed in our culture. The concept of the crime of rape is an anachronism; an ancient crime against property. It was devastating to the victim because if it was known a woman had been raped it would destroy her chances of being married(unless she was forced to marry her attacker), or if married she would likely be divorced(and divorce is a best case scenario)by her husband. And in the past a woman's status was intrinsically linked to her marriage or her prospects of marriage. It is a concept born of sex negativity and true patriarchy. Yet in our supposedly enlightened age it carries almost the same stigma as in the past.
Eliminate the crime of rape. Simply class it as another degree of battery. Remove the shame and the stigma. After all there is nothing inherently more damaging about rape than any other act of violence, except for the psychological power we give it by reinforcing the stigma.

I see your point but doubt it's quite as simple as that. Rape is a unique violation, with unique potential consequences.

[Lsuoma]

Normalising pedophilia, contributing to pedo-culture, or just an lazy excuse for me to post something I found funny?

http://i.imgur.com/105lrpo.jpg

The only explanation for the first link is that he was looking at that site too.

Creep fucker looks like a pruned-up Laden.

[Za-zen]

Caught his picking on my detestable satire before i posted, so added this:

Finally, this is mine:

36. Muhahaha the evil spreads. Soon my pretties, soon we shall have the whole atheist movement chanting our chant of mysoginist victory ” cunt, cunt cunt!” They shall chant. “Rape to the [named person]” will be our warcry!

I take by inference, that you view this as an example of thebadz? Oh noooooes! gendered slurs! Contextualized it is mocking the SJW narrative of the slymepit. Parodying their hyperbolic rhetoric. A form of satirical humor. The “rape to the named person” bit which so seems to offend your sensibilities is because said named person howls that that is our warcry!? If it isn’t to your taste, frankly i don’t give a shit

[katamari Damassi]

http://i.imgur.com/yF4czZa.jpg

Yes, yes it does.

Bronies... meh. "Look at me, I'm special! I watch a cartoon at age 30! "

The fact that you watch MLP may not make you gay or a pedophile, but the fact that you brag about it makes you an imbecile.

Is that the "gender queer elf sheriff" or whatever from A+Theism?

[LMU]

Caught his picking on my detestable satire before i posted, so added this:

Finally, this is mine:

36. Muhahaha the evil spreads. Soon my pretties, soon we shall have the whole atheist movement chanting our chant of mysoginist victory ” cunt, cunt cunt!” They shall chant. “Rape to the [named person]” will be our warcry!

I take by inference, that you view this as an example of thebadz? Oh noooooes! gendered slurs! Contextualized it is mocking the SJW narrative of the slymepit. Parodying their hyperbolic rhetoric. A form of satirical humor. The “rape to the named person” bit which so seems to offend your sensibilities is because said named person howls that that is our warcry!? If it isn’t to your taste, frankly i don’t give a shit

If it isn't to his taste, then why'd he go looking for it?

[Metalogic42]

Oh shit...that picture of Brony Guy has been bugging me for days, and I finally just realized who he looks like...

http://i54.tinypic.com/34guec0.jpg

[katamari Damassi]

My definition of rape culture is that rape, just like violence, is downplayed in our popular media and personal interactions for it's severity and potential to destroy.

If anything rape is overplayed in our culture. The concept of the crime of rape is an anachronism; an ancient crime against property. It was devastating to the victim because if it was known a woman had been raped it would destroy her chances of being married(unless she was forced to marry her attacker), or if married she would likely be divorced(and divorce is a best case scenario)by her husband. And in the past a woman's status was intrinsically linked to her marriage or her prospects of marriage. It is a concept born of sex negativity and true patriarchy. Yet in our supposedly enlightened age it carries almost the same stigma as in the past.
Eliminate the crime of rape. Simply class it as another degree of battery. Remove the shame and the stigma. After all there is nothing inherently more damaging about rape than any other act of violence, except for the psychological power we give it by reinforcing the stigma.

I see your point but doubt it's quite as simple as that. Rape is a unique violation, with unique potential consequences.

I understand where you're coming from, but to me only the level of potential harm matters. To me a violent mugging or beating is as harmful as a forced sex act.

[katamari Damassi]

Wow! I've missed a lot in my brief absence. It's so hard to keep up here.

So there was a conspiracy theory that Simpleflower was really Eucliwood, but that's not true? I never saw it.

Simpleflower was actually a poe all along? If true that brightens my day.

[LMU]

Caught his picking on my detestable satire before i posted, so added this:

Finally, this is mine:

36. Muhahaha the evil spreads. Soon my pretties, soon we shall have the whole atheist movement chanting our chant of mysoginist victory ” cunt, cunt cunt!” They shall chant. “Rape to the [named person]” will be our warcry!

I take by inference, that you view this as an example of thebadz? Oh noooooes! gendered slurs! Contextualized it is mocking the SJW narrative of the slymepit. Parodying their hyperbolic rhetoric. A form of satirical humor. The “rape to the named person” bit which so seems to offend your sensibilities is because said named person howls that that is our warcry!? If it isn’t to your taste, frankly i don’t give a shit

If it isn't to his taste, then why'd he go looking for it?

To expand a bit: there are two ways that they can deal with the Slymepit that I think would be effective. The easier one is just to ignore it. If they think everyone here are trolls, then stop feeding the trolls!

[Apples]

Owlglass ;) definitely exposed the FTB's undefended flank in comments at "That had to hurt" by reminding PZ's ditto-heads of the problematic asymmetry between insulting people and defaming them as misogynists and racists. The Nerd of Redhead chimed in with some classic NerdBot "skepticism":

You just have to consider an edge case to see that a “racist” allegation can be defaming and actually cause someone to lose their jobs or worse.

No citation to show this is the case. Nothing but bullshit.

Overall, I get a sense of an enjoyably and appropriately demoralized crowd over at Pharyngula. Very satisfying. Also entertaining to watch StrangeSally absolutely lose her shit at the suggestion that folks at the 'Gulag are anything but surgical with their accusations of bigotry.

http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/ ... ent-573146
http://www.freezepage.com/1362497554KYKTLWIFVS

[Submariner]

OK, I broke my rule and posted on Nugget's blog:

I find it more than a bit strange that atheists, skeptics, freethinkers and associated irreligious people are arguing, Christian apologist style, over the morality of WORDS. They are not arguing about the ideas that those words convey in context, but the morality of a grouping of letters.

If the ideas and intention behind the ideas are less important than the words one uses to convey them, then we have forgotten the lessons of history, in which some of the most horrible concepts were presented using very agreeable words.

The ideas posted at the slymepit, that women are people AND adults (it's the site motto), that an egalitarian approach to social justice is preferred over mono-gendered approaches, and that unfalsifiable and evidence lacking presuppositions about the nature of society should be allowed to be questioned are at the heart of this "rift".

[katamari Damassi]

(...) Once I have acclimatized myself some more, I will propose some pranks on them. Will be fun. :shhh:

Ohhh, you DO count me in for that. I'm too lazy to think of something to piss them off, but if you have something in mind, I'll gladly help.

I hope you're just talking about funny photoshops and the like.
Please nothing in RL. That would make you(and by association, The Pit)as bad as bin Laden and the Cowntess.

[jimthepleb]

Caught his picking on my detestable satire before i posted, so added this:

Finally, this is mine:

36. Muhahaha the evil spreads. Soon my pretties, soon we shall have the whole atheist movement chanting our chant of mysoginist victory ” cunt, cunt cunt!” They shall chant. “Rape to the [named person]” will be our warcry!

I take by inference, that you view this as an example of thebadz? Oh noooooes! gendered slurs! Contextualized it is mocking the SJW narrative of the slymepit. Parodying their hyperbolic rhetoric. A form of satirical humor. The “rape to the named person” bit which so seems to offend your sensibilities is because said named person howls that that is our warcry!? If it isn’t to your taste, frankly i don’t give a shit

If it isn't to his taste, then why'd he go looking for it?

To expand a bit: there are two ways that they can deal with the Slymepit that I think would be effective. The easier one is just to ignore it. If they think everyone here are trolls, then stop feeding the trolls!

Oh LMU you are missing the point. If they ignored us they wouldn't be making large amounts of money off the saps in the commentariat. In fact were I to be of a more conspiratorially minded bent, ophie-leer may have set up the current situation with the FtB/Pit to garner more cash in a day than many (working-class) people earn. Nice work if you can get it.

[katamari Damassi]

Caught his picking on my detestable satire before i posted, so added this:

Finally, this is mine:

36. Muhahaha the evil spreads. Soon my pretties, soon we shall have the whole atheist movement chanting our chant of mysoginist victory ” cunt, cunt cunt!” They shall chant. “Rape to the [named person]” will be our warcry!

I take by inference, that you view this as an example of thebadz? Oh noooooes! gendered slurs! Contextualized it is mocking the SJW narrative of the slymepit. Parodying their hyperbolic rhetoric. A form of satirical humor. The “rape to the named person” bit which so seems to offend your sensibilities is because said named person howls that that is our warcry!? If it isn’t to your taste, frankly i don’t give a shit

If it isn't to his taste, then why'd he go looking for it?

To expand a bit: there are two ways that they can deal with the Slymepit that I think would be effective. The easier one is just to ignore it. If they think everyone here are trolls, then stop feeding the trolls!

Oh LMU you are missing the point. If they ignored us they wouldn't be making large amounts of money off the saps in the commentariat. In fact were I to be of a more conspiratorially minded bent, ophie-leer may have set up the current situation with the FtB/Pit to garner more cash in a day than many (working-class) people earn. Nice work if you can get it.

Damn. And I just made a Zvan obesity reference. She should send us royalties.

[Southern]

(...)

(One minor suggestion: I read Vacula's response blog, and it had some examples from Ophelia as well as kajillions from Pharyngula. Everyone knows Pharyngula's a nasty place, and they've grown to accept that as a kind of 'necessary evil', I think. It create a much bigger impact, IMO, to have more examples of foul language (including not just foul words, but foul meanings) from Benson's blog, as a more direct response to her demands for language purity. Just MHO.)

(...)

Sorry, but I don't agree with this suggestion. "Guilt by association" is one of the points that the baboons try to push. By all means people should smack they with their own weapons. Of course, quoting the Prunella herself is better to expose her hypocrisy is better, I can agree with that.

[Lurkion]

OK, I broke my rule and posted on Nugget's blog:

I find it more than a bit strange that atheists, skeptics, freethinkers and associated irreligious people are arguing, Christian apologist style, over the morality of WORDS. They are not arguing about the ideas that those words convey in context, but the morality of a grouping of letters.

If the ideas and intention behind the ideas are less important than the words one uses to convey them, then we have forgotten the lessons of history, in which some of the most horrible concepts were presented using very agreeable words.

The ideas posted at the slymepit, that women are people AND adults (it's the site motto), that an egalitarian approach to social justice is preferred over mono-gendered approaches, and that unfalsifiable and evidence lacking presuppositions about the nature of society should be allowed to be questioned are at the heart of this "rift".

I like this comment, old man.

[Tigzy]

Simpleflower? A poe?

:lol:

Smart work there. Colour me well and truly Simpleflower's bitch. Doesn't mean she's getting any of my parts to eat, though.

[Submariner]

OK, I broke my rule and posted on Nugget's blog:

I find it more than a bit strange that atheists, skeptics, freethinkers and associated irreligious people are arguing, Christian apologist style, over the morality of WORDS. They are not arguing about the ideas that those words convey in context, but the morality of a grouping of letters.

If the ideas and intention behind the ideas are less important than the words one uses to convey them, then we have forgotten the lessons of history, in which some of the most horrible concepts were presented using very agreeable words.

The ideas posted at the slymepit, that women are people AND adults (it's the site motto), that an egalitarian approach to social justice is preferred over mono-gendered approaches, and that unfalsifiable and evidence lacking presuppositions about the nature of society should be allowed to be questioned are at the heart of this "rift".

I like this comment, old man.

Thanks, my love.

[LMU]

--snip--

To expand a bit: there are two ways that they can deal with the Slymepit that I think would be effective. The easier one is just to ignore it. If they think everyone here are trolls, then stop feeding the trolls!

Oh LMU you are missing the point. If they ignored us they wouldn't be making large amounts of money off the saps in the commentariat. In fact were I to be of a more conspiratorially minded bent, ophie-leer may have set up the current situation with the FtB/Pit to garner more cash in a day than many (working-class) people earn. Nice work if you can get it.

I stand corrected :lol:

[Southern]

My definition of rape culture is that rape, just like violence, is downplayed in our popular media and personal interactions for it's severity and potential to destroy.

If anything rape is overplayed in our culture. The concept of the crime of rape is an anachronism; an ancient crime against property. It was devastating to the victim because if it was known a woman had been raped it would destroy her chances of being married(unless she was forced to marry her attacker), or if married she would likely be divorced(and divorce is a best case scenario)by her husband. And in the past a woman's status was intrinsically linked to her marriage or her prospects of marriage. It is a concept born of sex negativity and true patriarchy. Yet in our supposedly enlightened age it carries almost the same stigma as in the past.
Eliminate the crime of rape. Simply class it as another degree of battery. Remove the shame and the stigma. After all there is nothing inherently more damaging about rape than any other act of violence, except for the psychological power we give it by reinforcing the stigma.

That's not true. Rape used to be frowned up because of this (and that's why you can "compensate" rape by marrying the victim, as the Good Book is eager to point), but it's not the case anymore. Today, it's a crime because: a) its a traumatic experience for the victim; b) it is a gross violation of the victim's human rights; and c) there's no circumstance that it could be justified (as you could do with assault, or robbery, or even murder).

[katamari Damassi]

My definition of rape culture is that rape, just like violence, is downplayed in our popular media and personal interactions for it's severity and potential to destroy.

If anything rape is overplayed in our culture. The concept of the crime of rape is an anachronism; an ancient crime against property. It was devastating to the victim because if it was known a woman had been raped it would destroy her chances of being married(unless she was forced to marry her attacker), or if married she would likely be divorced(and divorce is a best case scenario)by her husband. And in the past a woman's status was intrinsically linked to her marriage or her prospects of marriage. It is a concept born of sex negativity and true patriarchy. Yet in our supposedly enlightened age it carries almost the same stigma as in the past.
Eliminate the crime of rape. Simply class it as another degree of battery. Remove the shame and the stigma. After all there is nothing inherently more damaging about rape than any other act of violence, except for the psychological power we give it by reinforcing the stigma.

That's not true. Rape used to be frowned up because of this (and that's why you can "compensate" rape by marrying the victim, as the Good Book is eager to point), but it's not the case anymore. Today, it's a crime because: a) its a traumatic experience for the victim; b) it is a gross violation of the victim's human rights; and c) there's no circumstance that it could be justified (as you could do with assault, or robbery, or even murder).

My point is:
1) it is more traumatic than getting the shit beat out of you and robbed only because of the social stigma put on being a rape victim.
2) Any crime committed against person is a violation of human rights.
3) I concede your third point but don't really think it's that relevant.

[welch]

OK, I broke my rule and posted on Nugget's blog:

I find it more than a bit strange that atheists, skeptics, freethinkers and associated irreligious people are arguing, Christian apologist style, over the morality of WORDS. They are not arguing about the ideas that those words convey in context, but the morality of a grouping of letters.

If the ideas and intention behind the ideas are less important than the words one uses to convey them, then we have forgotten the lessons of history, in which some of the most horrible concepts were presented using very agreeable words.

The ideas posted at the slymepit, that women are people AND adults (it's the site motto), that an egalitarian approach to social justice is preferred over mono-gendered approaches, and that unfalsifiable and evidence lacking presuppositions about the nature of society should be allowed to be questioned are at the heart of this "rift".

That's one of the reason's I have a completely unkind view of Nugent's intent. If it were a couple of quotes, sure. But there are *fifty* of them, and some of them are edited to one line from a total of *three*. In some cases, he may have actually spent more time editing than it took to write the original.

When you look at the SIZE of the list and the time he spent parsing the originals, I find it somewhat unbelievable that he didn't do so with the intent I think he had. He could have simply linked to the posts. He chose not to. He could have quoted the entire post and only redacted the names. He chose not to. He gave the impression that everything he quoted originated here. It does not.

That's too much bullshit to be accidental.

[another lurker]

My definition of rape culture is that rape, just like violence, is downplayed in our popular media and personal interactions for it's severity and potential to destroy.

If anything rape is overplayed in our culture. The concept of the crime of rape is an anachronism; an ancient crime against property. It was devastating to the victim because if it was known a woman had been raped it would destroy her chances of being married(unless she was forced to marry her attacker), or if married she would likely be divorced(and divorce is a best case scenario)by her husband. And in the past a woman's status was intrinsically linked to her marriage or her prospects of marriage. It is a concept born of sex negativity and true patriarchy. Yet in our supposedly enlightened age it carries almost the same stigma as in the past.
Eliminate the crime of rape. Simply class it as another degree of battery. Remove the shame and the stigma. After all there is nothing inherently more damaging about rape than any other act of violence, except for the psychological power we give it by reinforcing the stigma.

That's not true. Rape used to be frowned up because of this (and that's why you can "compensate" rape by marrying the victim, as the Good Book is eager to point), but it's not the case anymore. Today, it's a crime because: a) its a traumatic experience for the victim; b) it is a gross violation of the victim's human rights; and c) there's no circumstance that it could be justified (as you could do with assault, or robbery, or even murder).

My point is:
1) it is more traumatic than getting the shit beat out of you and robbed only because of the social stigma put on being a rape victim.
2) Any crime committed against person is a violation of human rights.
3) I concede your third point but don't really think it's that relevant.

How about children who are extremely traumatized by rape yet know nothing of sex or sexual morality?

[welch]

Caught his picking on my detestable satire before i posted, so added this:

Finally, this is mine:

36. Muhahaha the evil spreads. Soon my pretties, soon we shall have the whole atheist movement chanting our chant of mysoginist victory ” cunt, cunt cunt!” They shall chant. “Rape to the [named person]” will be our warcry!

I take by inference, that you view this as an example of thebadz? Oh noooooes! gendered slurs! Contextualized it is mocking the SJW narrative of the slymepit. Parodying their hyperbolic rhetoric. A form of satirical humor. The “rape to the named person” bit which so seems to offend your sensibilities is because said named person howls that that is our warcry!? If it isn’t to your taste, frankly i don’t give a shit

If it isn't to his taste, then why'd he go looking for it?

To expand a bit: there are two ways that they can deal with the Slymepit that I think would be effective. The easier one is just to ignore it. If they think everyone here are trolls, then stop feeding the trolls!

Oh LMU you are missing the point. If they ignored us they wouldn't be making large amounts of money off the saps in the commentariat. In fact were I to be of a more conspiratorially minded bent, ophie-leer may have set up the current situation with the FtB/Pit to garner more cash in a day than many (working-class) people earn. Nice work if you can get it.

Without us, Ophie might have to come up with her own material.

[Apples]

Simpleflower? A poe?

:lol:

Smart work there. Colour me well and truly Simpleflower's bitch. Doesn't mean she's getting any of my parts to eat, though.

I'll take the notion that she was a pure poe with a grain of salt:

I think I should comment that simpleflower was most certainly a Poe after week three on atheism plus forums. She in fact-and she prefers to be called a she and female pronouns only- told me that, after week 3 she began Poe'ing there and this was quite deliberate and cynical, a reaction to her treatment there by staff and others. As we can all see, it took them a good deal of time to catch on.

I IM with simpleflower on AOL instant messenger all the time. She came through a trauma center here in Texas where I worked for some time, some years ago. She's a very badly damaged individual, but still managed to enjoy poe'ing the a plus morons. In all my time working with trauma survivors I've only managed to deal with a small few that were as fucked up as she was and still is.

I'd surmise there was probably a mixture of sincerity and trolling.

[Lsuoma]

(...) Once I have acclimatized myself some more, I will propose some pranks on them. Will be fun. :shhh:

Ohhh, you DO count me in for that. I'm too lazy to think of something to piss them off, but if you have something in mind, I'll gladly help.

I hope you're just talking about funny photoshops and the like.
Please nothing in RL. That would make you(and by association, The Pit)as bad as bin Laden and the Cowntess.

What, no slipping something is PeeZus' pocket? Bah!

[welch]

My definition of rape culture is that rape, just like violence, is downplayed in our popular media and personal interactions for it's severity and potential to destroy.

If anything rape is overplayed in our culture. The concept of the crime of rape is an anachronism; an ancient crime against property. It was devastating to the victim because if it was known a woman had been raped it would destroy her chances of being married(unless she was forced to marry her attacker), or if married she would likely be divorced(and divorce is a best case scenario)by her husband. And in the past a woman's status was intrinsically linked to her marriage or her prospects of marriage. It is a concept born of sex negativity and true patriarchy. Yet in our supposedly enlightened age it carries almost the same stigma as in the past.
Eliminate the crime of rape. Simply class it as another degree of battery. Remove the shame and the stigma. After all there is nothing inherently more damaging about rape than any other act of violence, except for the psychological power we give it by reinforcing the stigma.

That's not true. Rape used to be frowned up because of this (and that's why you can "compensate" rape by marrying the victim, as the Good Book is eager to point), but it's not the case anymore. Today, it's a crime because: a) its a traumatic experience for the victim; b) it is a gross violation of the victim's human rights; and c) there's no circumstance that it could be justified (as you could do with assault, or robbery, or even murder).

Rape, and other forms of sexual assault can also cause long term problems that other kinds of assault don't. Like Herpes, AIDs, STDs in general, pregnancy, etc. There is good reason Rape is classified as such a horrid crime, and I completely disagree that it is fundamentally no different than rolling people for their money.

[Karmakin]

My definition of rape culture is that rape, just like violence, is downplayed in our popular media and personal interactions for it's severity and potential to destroy.

If anything rape is overplayed in our culture. The concept of the crime of rape is an anachronism; an ancient crime against property. It was devastating to the victim because if it was known a woman had been raped it would destroy her chances of being married(unless she was forced to marry her attacker), or if married she would likely be divorced(and divorce is a best case scenario)by her husband. And in the past a woman's status was intrinsically linked to her marriage or her prospects of marriage. It is a concept born of sex negativity and true patriarchy. Yet in our supposedly enlightened age it carries almost the same stigma as in the past.
Eliminate the crime of rape. Simply class it as another degree of battery. Remove the shame and the stigma. After all there is nothing inherently more damaging about rape than any other act of violence, except for the psychological power we give it by reinforcing the stigma.

That's not true. Rape used to be frowned up because of this (and that's why you can "compensate" rape by marrying the victim, as the Good Book is eager to point), but it's not the case anymore. Today, it's a crime because: a) its a traumatic experience for the victim; b) it is a gross violation of the victim's human rights; and c) there's no circumstance that it could be justified (as you could do with assault, or robbery, or even murder).

I think you're both right to a degree, to be honest. There are legitimate reasons why it's such a traumatic experience, but I think that a lot of the language surrounding rape doesn't make things any easier for the victims (exactly the opposite actually).

I wouldn't go as far as to say as we should hide the concept of rape, but we need to talk about this stuff with our eyes open.

[Submariner]

Oh LMU you are missing the point. If they ignored us they wouldn't be making large amounts of money off the saps in the commentariat. In fact were I to be of a more conspiratorially minded bent, ophie-leer may have set up the current situation with the FtB/Pit to garner more cash in a day than many (working-class) people earn. Nice work if you can get it.

It looks like something I might have written:
viewtopic.php?f=31&t=266&p=70992#p70992

If I were of a more conspiratorial bent, I might suggest that Vacula and Ophie had reached a mutually beneficial (for blog hits) accord to each play the other's Satan.

(edited to correct typo)

[erikthebassist]

Yeah. You totally can't link to a comment on novella's blog.

Dumbass

Well see, you learn something new everyday. Not sure how not being aware of something makes one a dumb ass. Do you know everything Welch?

[Lsuoma]

Just took a dekko at whenskepticsattack. Did you all see that erik just doxxed the fuck out of himself.

[katamari Damassi]

How about children who are extremely traumatized by rape yet know nothing of sex or sexual morality?

I think children would be traumatized by any act of violence, add to that the reactions of parents, police, counselors, which I believe are more severe in cases of sexual violence.

[TheMudbrooker]

This is a video from Youtuber zEropoint68 on the value of being offended, if you like it go and subscribe to her if you're into that sort of thing.

[youtube]gXfElE3lQZI[/youtube]

[another lurker]

Just took a dekko at whenskepticsattack. Did you all see that erik just doxxed the fuck out of himself.

Reading that part of his page = harassment dontcha know!?

[Lurkion]

I think there's merit in what katamari is saying in that I do think a lot of trauma in rape arises out of our culture's sex negativity (I suspect this even applies to children).

However, the fact that the crime is essentially a torture for the pleasure of the offender and has unique repercussions makes it unique and serious (even accounting for our society's sex negativity). And to be frank, we can't really push past the cultural ideas of sex when considering the crime, knowing that the victim's culture is likely to exacerbate the trauma (hence we end up in the same spot as if we agree with the culture's negative view of sex).

It is not by necessity worse than a serious assault (as there is a wide spectrum of assaults and a wide spectrum of possible rapes (e.g. statutory rape or just forced intercourse, aggravated rape) but forced inter course is definitely near the topmost of possible crimes. It's not quite like a property offence (obviously!).

To derail the topic slightly, murder is definitely worse than rape, as there is no possibility of recovery from murder.

[Lurkion]

Just took a dekko at whenskepticsattack. Did you all see that erik just doxxed the fuck out of himself.

Yeah I saw that. Figured it might be a test. Like when my girlfriend says sure I can have sex with other women.

[Maximus]

:clap: nice ones tina and Za-zen over at nuggets. The ftbers really seem to be embarassing themselves :lol:

[LMU]

From JREF, announcing Atheism Plus Minus! http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p= ... count=4854

[Southern]

My definition of rape culture is that rape, just like violence, is downplayed in our popular media and personal interactions for it's severity and potential to destroy.

If anything rape is overplayed in our culture. The concept of the crime of rape is an anachronism; an ancient crime against property. It was devastating to the victim because if it was known a woman had been raped it would destroy her chances of being married(unless she was forced to marry her attacker), or if married she would likely be divorced(and divorce is a best case scenario)by her husband. And in the past a woman's status was intrinsically linked to her marriage or her prospects of marriage. It is a concept born of sex negativity and true patriarchy. Yet in our supposedly enlightened age it carries almost the same stigma as in the past.
Eliminate the crime of rape. Simply class it as another degree of battery. Remove the shame and the stigma. After all there is nothing inherently more damaging about rape than any other act of violence, except for the psychological power we give it by reinforcing the stigma.

That's not true. Rape used to be frowned up because of this (and that's why you can "compensate" rape by marrying the victim, as the Good Book is eager to point), but it's not the case anymore. Today, it's a crime because: a) its a traumatic experience for the victim; b) it is a gross violation of the victim's human rights; and c) there's no circumstance that it could be justified (as you could do with assault, or robbery, or even murder).

I think you're both right to a degree, to be honest. There are legitimate reasons why it's such a traumatic experience, but I think that a lot of the language surrounding rape doesn't make things any easier for the victims (exactly the opposite actually).

I wouldn't go as far as to say as we should hide the concept of rape, but we need to talk about this stuff with our eyes open.

Sure, if that is shown to help, by all means we should do that - maybe to a degree where people can talk about rape as "easily" (because it's really not that easy) as they can talk about being assaulted, or even about an attempt murder commited. I do agree that the "Rape Is a Special Kind of Evil" trope is on full effect, and that it can be causing harm to the rape survivors.

We came a long way through millenia of real rape culture ("Sorry I raped you daugther, but I promise I will make ammends and marry her, so we're cool, right?" "Certainly, son - you break it, you buy it!") to even dismiss the "the victim was wet/did help to take her clothes/seemed to enjoy it" as bullshit defenses which is a good thing.

[Metalogic42]

Conversations at the pit or Pharyngula tend to snowball. I say something, three people respond, I respond to those three and 10 more people jump in. The conversation at some point has too many branches and becomes impossible to follow or keep up with. ​

Here's a little tip: You don't have to respond to everything. But if you do want to respond to everything, you can do so at your leisure. There's also this really cool feature that all modern browsers have: bookmarks.

I'm using moderation to start because I'm expecting a lot of trolling. Make a comment and provided you aren't one of a few people I already know I don't want to deal with, I'll make you a trusted commenter which = no more moderation for you!

So the content of the comments themselves don't matter. Bravo. What matters is the content of other comments, elsewhere. Bravo. How about you tell us which people you don't want to deal with?

​I'm interested in what a few of the pitters have to say, I just won't engage at the pit.

Which is why you created an account here, and are still posting.

​I'm a 40 year old white male.

Misogynist!!!

My first passion is music, second is skepticism and atheism, but I also love tech, science and beer.

Remember: If you have sex with someone who is drunk, they are unable to consent & that is rape.

Why is it, if I'm telling an anecdote that supports the feminist case, I must be lying, but when plenty of others in the same thread tell anecdotes that support the egalitarian case, that's perfectly fine?

Your anecdote was pretty "out there", but even if true, it's not representative of society as a whole.

A few of the pitters decided it was armchair psychology time. I won't quote all of them, but to paraphrase, they basically said 'No wonder he's a feminist'.

I'm assuming that you want some of the FTB crowd as readers/commenters on your blog in addition to some pitters. Why not link to these comments, for context?

So you can only be a feminist if you've been abused, raped or personally witnessed abuse and rape?

Bzzzt. The claim, I believe, was that abuse/rape/etc was a sufficient condition for being a feminist, not a necessary condition. Logic fail.

So let's define rape culture, let's just talk about rape culture and what it means.

Good idea. Get on with it, what is rape culture? You can respond here or on your blog, I don't care. But I'll only respond here, because I'll be damned if I'm gonna be censored.

[Bhurzum]

Just took a dekko at whenskepticsattack. Did you all see that erik just doxxed the fuck out of himself.

I hear that crayola v0.2 had some serious security issues... :lol:

[welch]

Yeah. You totally can't link to a comment on novella's blog.

Dumbass

Well see, you learn something new everyday. Not sure how not being aware of something makes one a dumb ass. Do you know everything Welch?

I know how to read a comment and look for links.

Also, the "not knowing how" to link to a comment on Novella's page isn't what makes you a dumbass. that merely made you ignorant, and in and of itself, that's neither good nor bad.

What made you a dumbass was your justification for it:

Are you that bad at reading comprehension? Neurologica doesn't have a way to link comments directly lab partner. Try again.

Are you that bad at language comprehension? There's a difference between "I don't know how to link to comments" and "Neurologica doesn't have a way to link to comments directly lab partner".

But I get it. You had your back up and the thought of admitting you couldn't figure out how to do it here, well, that's not something your pwecious ego would let you do. How'd that work out for ya, sparky?

That, my dear, acephalic tit is why you are a dumbass.

Also, I thought you weren't engaging here anymore?

​I'm interested in what a few of the pitters have to say, I just won't engage at the pit.

Tomorrow you'll quit, right? Today is your last hurrah, tomorrow, you'll put the pipe down. Really. This time you mean it.

[cunt]

Do you know half of everything, welch? Could rape culture exist in the half you do not know?

[DGS]

I think there's merit in what katamari is saying in that I do think a lot of trauma in rape arises out of our culture's sex negativity (I suspect this even applies to children).

However, the fact that the crime is essentially a torture for the pleasure of the offender and has unique repercussions makes it unique and serious (even accounting for our society's sex negativity). And to be frank, we can't really push past the cultural ideas of sex when considering the crime, knowing that the victim's culture is likely to exacerbate the trauma (hence we end up in the same spot as if we agree with the culture's negative view of sex).

It is not by necessity worse than a serious assault (as there is a wide spectrum of assaults and a wide spectrum of possible rapes (e.g. statutory rape or just forced intercourse, aggravated rape) but forced inter course is definitely near the topmost of possible crimes. It's not quite like a property offence (obviously!).

To derail the topic slightly, murder is definitely worse than rape, as there is no possibility of recovery from murder.

I'd like to jump into this convo a little later after putting my son to bed. I can bore you all rigid (no pun intended) with my rapey research.

[Does that count as a rape joke?]

[Za-zen]

So lemme get this straight, Eric wants us to leave an unmoderated space, to go to his moderated space, to be moderated by him in a discussion in which he is wholly partisan.

Why am i finding this a non starter.

[DGS]

Until I have time, I'll post this early effort. It was one of my first attempts to wrestle with these concepts. http://dispatchesfromtheclaphamomnibus. ... azine.html

[Mr Danksworth]

So lemme get this straight, Eric wants us to leave an unmoderated space, to go to his moderated space, to be moderated by him in a discussion in which he is wholly partisan.

Why am i finding this a non starter.

Why bother? Who gives a toss about Erik Abretske's blog? He's just another nobody from the FTB commentariat looking for victim points. Feeding him comments can only serve to feed the clown narrative.