Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

[daisyw]

You know, I was sort of wondering, does anyone know how PZ became so prominent in the first place? Was it really just Crackergate? I mean, I was browsing his blog today and I sort of just realized how boring Pharyngula is. He very rarely posts anything of interest, unless you count his Social Justice Warrioring, and then only because it feeds this dumb little schism he's manufactured. Unlike other prominent bloggers like Andrew Sullivan or John Scalzi, he's not a good writer. So what's the deal here?

I've been wondering the same thing for a long time; since long before I was aware of him a 'SJW'.

I remember coming across a decent anti-creationist post of his back around 2006 or 2007 or so? I'm. Of sure of the time frame. Around the same time however he used to post about "VenomFangX", who was a rabid creationist teen on YouTube. I remember at the time thinking it was weird that this latter middle aged academic would be writing about some kid on YouTube. [Aside: To be honest, I thought ThunderF00t's preoccupation with the kid was a little weird also, though it was the catalyst of some good videos regarding the fallacies creationists depend on.]

Some time later I noticed that he seemed to talk about feminism a lot, which I thought was odd in a blog supposedly about biology, with a special interest in debunking the claims of creationists. I'm outside what his actual interest in feminism is, but he's definitely "trying too hard" with it and it makes me wonder what is real motivation is.

In any event, I never really found his blog interesting enough to read with any frequency, and certainly never regarded him as 'famous'. It's only after this whole elevator gate and associated A Plus fad emerged and grabbed my morbid curiosity that his is a name I have come to see more often.

He basically strikes me as a person desperate for attention and genuine fame, not just this "well kniwn in some circles blogger" thing, and he probably has seen that SJW posts generate the biggest interest. If he could get a big following, maybe a seat on Bill Mahr's show etc., by playing a right winger, he'd probably do it. He doesn't really warrant all this attention. Like mommies all over the world say; "ignore him and he'll go away".

Until I decided a few weeks ago to check out what's happening in activism on which I had no previous interest (I prefer discussions with theists etc) I had hardly heard of him. I had heard of many others on the margin and was a vociferous consumer of youtube videos, formal debates, call in programmes and the like. But PZ rarely came up even in creationist material. That was mainly Thunderfoot, AronRa and a few others.

My only interest in him now is his clear attempt to bring an unscientific or proven ideology into the community which is not subject to scrutiny. It is also attempting to shut down dissent and control the narrative. I know they will bait and switch where they can, such as Atheism Plus has nothing to do with Atheism or Humanism which they claim. Some Free Thought bloggers have no interest in free thought. They will misrepresent data and people and for them the ends justify the means. Many larger groups have experienced this in the past and many have it now. You always get a small unelected, unrepresentative group of extremists trying to control the whole. Now it is the turn of the rationalist community to suffer and we can't sit back and let it happen.

From my knowledge of people like that they have to be resisted or they will eventually control much more than a few blogs and conferences (such as AI coming up) They bully and harass as a matter of course with no conscience or care for the effects on others. Resisting is hard for prominent members of the community to do as they will be attacked viciously, as we see all the time. For me I do not care as I have no reputation at stake. I have no living to lose. I don't giver a toss if people don't like me just because of what they think I believe. That is why I am here, to try and help where I can in a very small way. I want a bit of sanity back in the movement and the ability to criticise and comment without censure.

perfectly said.

Well said, Jack. Well said. Kudos to you.

[daisyw]

Incidentally, Twatson has a post up with a long, predictable, self-serving version of her Reddit attack/backlash. She posts several twitter names of people who savaged her and basically admits that her claim, at the time she tweeted it, that her wiki page was "vandalized," was a slight exaggeration. She also, perhaps reasonably, takes Sara Mayhew to task for retweeting a Twitter speculation that Rebecca was overheard saying something like, "so-and-so is a JEW, after all" at a bar. On the other hand, Rebecca has the credibility of a foot fungus, so YMMV.

http://skepchick.org/2013/03/sxsw-and-r ... n-problem/
http://www.freezepage.com/1363046638BCGGXBYFQX

More silliness from Rebecca Watson. Not good.

[Zenspace]

Hey Wonderist - sounds like you've got a baboon who thinks his mad skillz exceed yours:

I have a proposal with respect to online harassment. I want to meet, and maybe train Rhetorical Assassins and organize ethical counter strikes in online forums where speech is being suppressed.

I think s/h/it is planning on hitting FtB! :o

Now that I just dropped a bunch of very loaded words let me define them and my intentions for you.

Harassment
What I defined here,l
http://www.michaelnugent.com/2013/03/03 ... ent-196218
…when arguing with the Projectionists from the Pit. Why harasser instead of harass? Because the target is more important, we already know the behavior.
Individuals who have the effect of de facto emotionally draining the people they disagree with instead of exchanging ideas, and/or de facto replace communication with suppression of the message. This is a matter of basic human psychology and I will back this up with citations if you wish. When a person has to spend too much time dealing with:

*bullshit about appearance, sexuality, parentage, or any other insulting language instead of their message. This includes visual attacks like photoshoped images and disturbing visual spam
*misrepresentations, distortions, and outright deception concerning their position or person. This includes fake accounts pretending to be the person, and I will toss in hacked accounts because I can see that happening someday
*repetition of the above to a level that the victim can not keep up with and distracts from their message

It tires them out. Its human behavior designed to make the person give up and go away and “Win” instead of trying to be find out what the world is really like. I loathe it like nothing else.

I suspect that s/h/it has made a fundamental strategical error, namely that the so-called 'victims' go out of their way to come here to search for something to claim victim points about. Here is a big labor saving suggestion: don't lurk and scour the Pyt for victim points. Oh, I forgot, no victim points = no drama = no readers = no hits. :doh:

Ethical Counterstrikes
I would define this as specifically responding to instances of harassment as fast as we can. Once there the object is not abuse, but will be perceived as an attack because of unavoidable human nature. Like it or not criticism is felt as abuse to a bully. I work in a middle school in a southern state and I see it every day. A harasser hates their behavior pointed out like nothing else so I assert that the perception of criticism be is a fact of reality in a combat situation, which is what the harasser is transforming place of communication into, a combat zone.

So I propose that volunteer squads of individuals with excellent critical and logical skills be organized into teams. The object of these teams is moral support, and rescue of the victims message. We do this with hyper-criticism shaped to direct the harassers comments back to the topic. Relentlessly, neutrally, and specifically. No insult is to be used that is not based on a real observation of behavior that is related to the suppression of the victims message.

So, does open debate = 'harrassment' ?

Reality is to be respected, used, and deception is to be shunned as we do not mix ourselves with what they are.

Houston, I think I see a problem.

Our target should be precisely defined, and our aims no less precise. Are you trying to hurt people, don’t do this. Are you trying to provide moral support, consider doing this. Are you trying to support someone having a right to have their ideas seriously considered in a general sense? Consider doing this. How would I define the most acceptable deliberate harm? You want to create a catharsis in your target.

How seriously should you take this? Consider that I try to have a neurobiologically consistent view of all human behavior. Discussion, argument, harassment, WHARRGARBLE. These are functions with structures and histories, and utterly relevant life histories, even in assholes. It’s not for fun.

That's pretty impressive. Be afraid, very afraid!

Sounds like the 'Pit should be prepared for an influx of Brony-trained "Rhetorical Assassins," though I'm unsure how this place would qualify as a place where "speech is being suppressed." Somehow I doubt he and his gang will invade A+, even though that's one online a/s forum where there is a blatantly obvious speech suppression problem.

http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/ ... ent-576993
http://www.freezepage.com/1363043806VSMARNJSOS

[ConcentratedH2O, OM]

Becky Whatnot:

Note that the last one [Tweet quote] isn’t even properly addressed to me. It’s another woman who goes by “Beccie,” which is apparently close enough to the “Becky” many of my harassers call me in some bizarre attempt to be belittling.

Dear Dick...

Also, sh can't spell "sequitur", a trait she shares with Nerd of Redhead.

[ConcentratedH2O, OM]

Those skepchicks and their commenters are soooo skeptical. They would never just make up shit...

Our friend Setarse:

A semi-random question: is anyone planning on attending TAM this year? I’ve heard the speakers’ list, um…I guess I could say ‘leaves much to be desired’?

Marilove:

I feel as if TAM got a bit too big for its britches, as it were, and people are moving on to other venues. It’s just not the same. And I’ve never been! But from what I can tell, it just doesn’t seem the same.

Well played, soldiers.

Frozen in above comments:

http://skepchick.org/2013/03/sxsw-and-r ... n-problem/

[Patrick]

Sounds like the 'Pit should be prepared for an influx of Brony-trained "Rhetorical Assassins," though I'm unsure how this place would qualify as a place where "speech is being suppressed." Somehow I doubt he and his gang will invade A+, even though that's one online a/s forum where there is a blatantly obvious speech suppression problem.

http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/ ... ent-576993
http://www.freezepage.com/1363043806VSMARNJSOS

I'm reminded of something Terry Pratchett wrote:

No enemies had ever taken Ankh-Morpork. Well, technically they had, quite often; the city welcomed free-spending barbarian invaders, but somehow the puzzled raiders always found, after a few days, that they didn't own the own horses anymore, and within a couple of months they were just another minority group with its own graffiti and food shops.

[agarybuseychristmas]

Do all these 'freeze peach' idiots just plain not understand the philosophical basis that the right to free speech is built upon, or are they just being willfully ignorant/obtuse in their special-pleading whinging about how a private entity does not have to follow constitutional law? I'm seriously wondering...

they can't be THAT fucking stupid, can they?

[Reap]

Jan; Thank logic you didn't kill those cuties off! When is the Hagfish making its' entrance?

I'm waiting for the puffer fish

[daisyw]

Lighthearted joke or horrible death threat against a pitter?

http://img28.imageshack.us/img28/826/whatna.png

For the record, I can see it as a joke, although a rather morbid one. But this again reeks of hypocrisy coming from people who milk every instance of a person saying "I wish you got ... " or "If I were a girl I would ...".

Again, it's a joke if they doing, a horrible violent misogynistic death threat if someone else does it.

It's hard for me to tell if that's a lighthearted joke or a death threat. It is awful though. Don't they realise that they could be reported to Twitter for those kinds of tweets?

[Apples]

Jan; Thank logic you didn't kill those cuties off! When is the Hagfish making its' entrance?

I'm waiting for the puffer fish

Not to mention Half-fish.

[JackSkeptic]

I have a proposal with respect to online harassment. I want to meet, and maybe train Rhetorical Assassins and organize ethical counter strikes in online forums where speech is being suppressed.

(...)

So I propose that volunteer squads of individuals with excellent critical and logical skills be organized into teams. The object of these teams is moral support, and rescue of the victims message. We do this with hyper-criticism shaped to direct the harassers comments back to the topic. Relentlessly, neutrally, and specifically. No insult is to be used that is not based on a real observation of behavior that is related to the suppression of the victims message.

(...)

http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/ ... ent-576993
http://www.freezepage.com/1363043806VSMARNJSOS

Has anyone had any interaction with Brony before? Because he seems to hold his rhetorical and argumentative abilities in great esteem

Well the training would be a group thing. I’m not going to pretend that I’m the only one that can be hyper analytical and reduce an idiot to gibbering mush that no one respects

Somehow I don't think his rhetorical assassins will fare very well when matched against the likes of Welch, Pitchguest and the rest of the pit's "rhetorical brotherhood".
Unless they have whores. Whores distract everyone.

Yeh. This caught my attention too: 'So I propose that volunteer squads of individuals with excellent critical and logical skills be organized into teams.'

Good luck with that.

[Lurkion]

If EllenBeth wants to send Justin Vacula home in a box from WISCFI that really doesn't bother me. I interpret it to mean she just wants to save Justin airfare money. I just hope she uses enough postage.

She needs to make sure she puts airholes in.

But not viewing holes. We don't want to subject postal workers to that moustache.

#vaculaburn

[Reap]

Jan; Thank logic you didn't kill those cuties off! When is the Hagfish making its' entrance?

I'm waiting for the puffer fish

Not to mention Half-fish.

Plecostomus, now that sucks

[Apples]

Do all these 'freeze peach' idiots just plain not understand the philosophical basis that the right to free speech is built upon, or are they just being willfully ignorant/obtuse in their special-pleading whinging about how a private entity does not have to follow constitutional law? I'm seriously wondering...

they can't be THAT fucking stupid, can they?

IMO, yes, they can be, and they are. Yes, they are unwilling to admit to themselves the philosophical and practical reasons that free speech is so important. Certainly no one is obligated, on a private forum, to provide a platform for everyone/anyone to speak. But how you use your power to regular others' speech is extremely revealing about your motivations and your character. Your ability to engage dissenters and survive a sustained dialogue with people who disagree with you says a lot about the integrity of your views. Never mind the fact that in terms of winning hearts and minds, the careless use of the banhammer is one of the best ways to sow mistrust and empower your opposition.

[Reap]

I have a proposal with respect to online harassment. I want to meet, and maybe train Rhetorical Assassins and organize ethical counter strikes in online forums where speech is being suppressed.

(...)

So I propose that volunteer squads of individuals with excellent critical and logical skills be organized into teams. The object of these teams is moral support, and rescue of the victims message. We do this with hyper-criticism shaped to direct the harassers comments back to the topic. Relentlessly, neutrally, and specifically. No insult is to be used that is not based on a real observation of behavior that is related to the suppression of the victims message.

(...)

http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/ ... ent-576993
http://www.freezepage.com/1363043806VSMARNJSOS

Has anyone had any interaction with Brony before? Because he seems to hold his rhetorical and argumentative abilities in great esteem

Well the training would be a group thing. I’m not going to pretend that I’m the only one that can be hyper analytical and reduce an idiot to gibbering mush that no one respects

Somehow I don't think his rhetorical assassins will fare very well when matched against the likes of Welch, Pitchguest and the rest of the pit's "rhetorical brotherhood".
Unless they have whores. Whores distract everyone.

Yeh. This caught my attention too: 'So I propose that volunteer squads of individuals with excellent critical and logical skills be organized into teams.'

Good luck with that.

Teams? .....Teams?............critical .....logical? Teams? I hope they try, I really do

[Lsuoma]

I'm reminded of something Terry Pratchett wrote:

No enemies had ever taken Ankh-Morpork. Well, technically they had, quite often; the city welcomed free-spending barbarian invaders, but somehow the puzzled raiders always found, after a few days, that they didn't own the own horses anymore, and within a couple of months they were just another minority group with its own graffiti and food shops.

That made me smile: which book?

[agarybuseychristmas]

I'm reminded of something Terry Pratchett wrote:

No enemies had ever taken Ankh-Morpork. Well, technically they had, quite often; the city welcomed free-spending barbarian invaders, but somehow the puzzled raiders always found, after a few days, that they didn't own the own horses anymore, and within a couple of months they were just another minority group with its own graffiti and food shops.

That made me smile: which book?

I think either Guards, Guards! or Nightwatch.

[TheMudbrooker]

Jan; Thank logic you didn't kill those cuties off! When is the Hagfish making its' entrance?

I'm waiting for the puffer fish

Not to mention Half-fish.

Plecostomus, now that sucks

What about lutefisk? Or gefelte fish? It's because you're an anti-semetic Norwegian hater isn't it?

[Aneris]

Do all these 'freeze peach' idiots just plain not understand the philosophical basis that the right to free speech is built upon, or are they just being willfully ignorant/obtuse in their special-pleading whinging about how a private entity does not have to follow constitutional law? I'm seriously wondering...

they can't be THAT fucking stupid, can they?

IMO, yes, they can be, and they are. Yes, they are unwilling to admit to themselves the philosophical and practical reasons that free speech is so important. Certainly no one is obligated, on a private forum, to provide a platform for everyone/anyone to speak. But how you use your power to regular others' speech is extremely revealing about your motivations and your character. Your ability to engage dissenters and survive a sustained dialogue with people who disagree with you says a lot about the integrity of your views. Never mind the fact that in terms of winning hearts and minds, the careless use of the banhammer is one of the best ways to sow mistrust and empower your opposition.

Say you declare that you auto-ban users signed up somewhere else no matter what. You could create two different sides, as free haunting users are now restricted. Then you could theoretically take advantage of a "We vs. Them" story... wait...

[JackSkeptic]

If EllenBeth wants to send Justin Vacula home in a box from WISCFI that really doesn't bother me. I interpret it to mean she just wants to save Justin airfare money. I just hope she uses enough postage.

She needs to make sure she puts airholes in.

But not viewing holes. We don't want to subject postal workers to that moustache.

#vaculaburn

The moustache is going first class, it got a lucrative role in a 1970's porn remake.

[Lsuoma]

I'm reminded of something Terry Pratchett wrote:

No enemies had ever taken Ankh-Morpork. Well, technically they had, quite often; the city welcomed free-spending barbarian invaders, but somehow the puzzled raiders always found, after a few days, that they didn't own the own horses anymore, and within a couple of months they were just another minority group with its own graffiti and food shops.

That made me smile: which book?

I think either Guards, Guards! or Nightwatch.

Google tells me it is Eric.

[JackSkeptic]

I have a proposal with respect to online harassment. I want to meet, and maybe train Rhetorical Assassins and organize ethical counter strikes in online forums where speech is being suppressed.

(...)

So I propose that volunteer squads of individuals with excellent critical and logical skills be organized into teams. The object of these teams is moral support, and rescue of the victims message. We do this with hyper-criticism shaped to direct the harassers comments back to the topic. Relentlessly, neutrally, and specifically. No insult is to be used that is not based on a real observation of behavior that is related to the suppression of the victims message.

(...)

http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/ ... ent-576993
http://www.freezepage.com/1363043806VSMARNJSOS

Has anyone had any interaction with Brony before? Because he seems to hold his rhetorical and argumentative abilities in great esteem

Well the training would be a group thing. I’m not going to pretend that I’m the only one that can be hyper analytical and reduce an idiot to gibbering mush that no one respects

Somehow I don't think his rhetorical assassins will fare very well when matched against the likes of Welch, Pitchguest and the rest of the pit's "rhetorical brotherhood".
Unless they have whores. Whores distract everyone.

Yeh. This caught my attention too: 'So I propose that volunteer squads of individuals with excellent critical and logical skills be organized into teams.'

Good luck with that.

Teams? .....Teams?............critical .....logical? Teams? I hope they try, I really do

Quite a few times I wished we we're inundated with people from FtB. It would be fun and I hope it happens.

[Lsuoma]

If EllenBeth wants to send Justin Vacula home in a box from WISCFI that really doesn't bother me. I interpret it to mean she just wants to save Justin airfare money. I just hope she uses enough postage.

She needs to make sure she puts airholes in.

But not viewing holes. We don't want to subject postal workers to that moustache.

#vaculaburn

The moustache is going first class, it got a lucrative role in a 1970's porn remake.

Looks like Justin should be on the new Cheezburger site.

[comslave]

Here:

viewtopic.php?f=31&t=266&p=67971&hilit= ... all#p67971

Right – thought that was what you were referring to, but, absent a smilie, wasn’t sure.

But in passing, since we’re talking of EllenBeth’s sense of humour (?), one is a little surprised that she didn’t seem to think that the following "joke" was particularly funny, particularly surprising since one could argue that it was in the same vein and of the same degree of credibility:

http://mycatsaremygods.files.wordpress. ... sghost.png

"Corrective rape". Keeping that. Will try to use that in conversation.

[ConcentratedH2O, OM]

Quite a few times I wished we we're inundated with people from FtB. It would be fun and I hope it happens.

Oh fuck, don't say that. It reminds me of the pitiful mewling on Meyers's blog when he posts something about women, and within 5 minutes there's a commenter gleefully crowing "And cue misogynist fuckwits in 5,4,3...".

Normally followed by complete silence from misogynists, just a pile on by the usual commenters, and me cringing at the pathetic spectacle of it all.

[Reap]

Lighthearted joke or horrible death threat against a pitter?

http://img28.imageshack.us/img28/826/whatna.png

For the record, I can see it as a joke, although a rather morbid one. But this again reeks of hypocrisy coming from people who milk every instance of a person saying "I wish you got ... " or "If I were a girl I would ...".

Again, it's a joke if they doing, a horrible violent misogynistic death threat if someone else does it.

It's hard for me to tell if that's a lighthearted joke or a death threat. It is awful though. Don't they realise that they could be reported to Twitter for those kinds of tweets?

Relax everybody it looks as though good ol ellenbeth was just trolling us! Don't you all feel silly now? Too bad she doesn't realize that her trolling just resulted in her making herself look like a...troll. In case you didn't know this ellenbeth- Your trolling is adding to the problem not helping. That is IF you were ever really trolling in the first place, which is doubtful. My opinion is you again allowed the hole under your nose to run free and it takes your brain several minutes to catch up...after it is alerted by an outside source that what you said was stupid and/or lame. Pity we see this happen over and over again. Read well ellenbeth, one day you may catch on. I usually don't bring this kind of thing up because I enjoy watching you make a fool of yourself, it's almost as if part of you knows you deserve it.

[free thoughtpolice]

Does this link work?

[Lurkion]

Quite a few times I wished we we're inundated with people from FtB. It would be fun and I hope it happens.

Oh fuck, don't say that. It reminds me of the pitiful mewling on Meyers's blog when he posts something about women, and within 5 minutes there's a commenter gleefully crowing "And cue misogynist fuckwits in 5,4,3...".

Normally followed by complete silence from misogynists, just a pile on by the usual commenters, and me cringing at the pathetic spectacle of it all.

hahahaha Yeah. The 'misogynist fuckwits' are banned. You guys are free to groupthink all by yourselves.

[justinvacula]

[youtube]y6He0FWoFj0[/youtube]

Breakfast, lunch, and hugs!

[Lsuoma]

We currently have some 55 guests here - some preliminary reconnaissance from the FfTB SWAT team perhaps?

[decius]

That's fortunate. Watson hasn't been on SGU for two weeks now due to a throat infection. It must have cleared up just in time for SXSW.

I noticed that, too. The show has greatly improved as a result.

[AndrewV69]

Dropping in once more to inform those interested that Aethism Plus was mentioned.


Part 6 -

@10:00
Q. What do you think about Feminism co-oping other social movements?
A. Feminism wants to be the entire story ... When you believe you are a righteous victim, you are not interested in anyone else's story.

[Steersman]

Here:

viewtopic.php?f=31&t=266&p=67971&hilit= ... all#p67971

Right – thought that was what you were referring to, but, absent a smilie, wasn’t sure.

But in passing, since we’re talking of EllenBeth’s sense of humour (?), one is a little surprised that she didn’t seem to think that the following "joke" was particularly funny, particularly surprising since one could argue that it was in the same vein and of the same degree of credibility:

http://mycatsaremygods.files.wordpress. ... sghost.png

"Corrective rape". Keeping that. Will try to use that in conversation.

Yea. And he would have been golden if he’d closed with: “RELAX people. It’s a lighthearted joke.” Do be sure to use that as well with the “corrective rape”. And you can say too that it was EBW herself – arbiter of what is right and decent – who gave her “Good Housekeeping Seal of Approval” on it as a joke.

But my recent comment on her site, screen-captured for posterity:

Maybe – if not probably – that “Himmler’s Ghost” tweeter was just joking. Considering your recent “joke” of a similar nature about Justin Vacula, I would have thought you had a better sense of humour and weren’t quite as hypocritical ….

[Steersman]

Dropping in once more to inform those interested that Aethism Plus was mentioned.


Part 6 -

@10:00
Q. What do you think about Feminism co-oping other social movements?
A. Feminism wants to be the entire story ... When you believe you are a righteous victim, you are not interested in anyone else's story.

That one looks like a keeper ....

[JackSkeptic]

We currently have some 55 guests here - some preliminary reconnaissance from the FfTB SWAT team perhaps?

Hopefully.

[free thoughtpolice]

We currently have some 55 guests here - some preliminary reconnaissance from the FfTB SWAT team perhaps?

Josh Spokesgay reveal yourself !!! You are reading this! Why not just speak out now and revile the slymies? Post here and say what you want.

[Zenspace]

We currently have some 55 guests here - some preliminary reconnaissance from the FfTB SWAT team perhaps?

Josh Spokesgay reveal yourself !!! You are reading this! Why not just speak out now and revile the slymies? Post here and say what you want.

20 Guests. You done skeered everyone away! :o

[clownshoe]

[youtube]bmbL7Cwtksc[/youtube]

Well done rocko2466, love it!

[free thoughtpolice]

Wow! Almost like I was shrieking FLAME in an excitable gathering!

[welch]

Hey Wonderist - sounds like you've got a baboon who thinks his mad skillz exceed yours:

I have a proposal with respect to online harassment. I want to meet, and maybe train Rhetorical Assassins and organize ethical counter strikes in online forums where speech is being suppressed.

Now that I just dropped a bunch of very loaded words let me define them and my intentions for you.

Harassment
What I defined here,
http://www.michaelnugent.com/2013/03/03 ... ent-196218
…when arguing with the Projectionists from the Pit. Why harasser instead of harass? Because the target is more important, we already know the behavior.
Individuals who have the effect of de facto emotionally draining the people they disagree with instead of exchanging ideas, and/or de facto replace communication with suppression of the message. This is a matter of basic human psychology and I will back this up with citations if you wish. When a person has to spend too much time dealing with:

*bullshit about appearance, sexuality, parentage, or any other insulting language instead of their message. This includes visual attacks like photoshoped images and disturbing visual spam
*misrepresentations, distortions, and outright deception concerning their position or person. This includes fake accounts pretending to be the person, and I will toss in hacked accounts because I can see that happening someday
*repetition of the above to a level that the victim can not keep up with and distracts from their message

It tires them out. Its human behavior designed to make the person give up and go away and “Win” instead of trying to be find out what the world is really like. I loathe it like nothing else.

Ethical Counterstrikes
I would define this as specifically responding to instances of harassment as fast as we can. Once there the object is not abuse, but will be perceived as an attack because of unavoidable human nature. Like it or not criticism is felt as abuse to a bully. I work in a middle school in a southern state and I see it every day. A harasser hates their behavior pointed out like nothing else so I assert that the perception of criticism be is a fact of reality in a combat situation, which is what the harasser is transforming place of communication into, a combat zone.

So I propose that volunteer squads of individuals with excellent critical and logical skills be organized into teams. The object of these teams is moral support, and rescue of the victims message. We do this with hyper-criticism shaped to direct the harassers comments back to the topic. Relentlessly, neutrally, and specifically. No insult is to be used that is not based on a real observation of behavior that is related to the suppression of the victims message.

Reality is to be respected, used, and deception is to be shunned as we do not mix ourselves with what they are.

Our target should be precisely defined, and our aims no less precise. Are you trying to hurt people, don’t do this. Are you trying to provide moral support, consider doing this. Are you trying to support someone having a right to have their ideas seriously considered in a general sense? Consider doing this. How would I define the most acceptable deliberate harm? You want to create a catharsis in your target.

How seriously should you take this? Consider that I try to have a neurobiologically consistent view of all human behavior. Discussion, argument, harassment, WHARRGARBLE. These are functions with structures and histories, and utterly relevant life histories, even in assholes. It’s not for fun.

Sounds like the 'Pit should be prepared for an influx of Brony-trained "Rhetorical Assassins," though I'm unsure how this place would qualify as a place where "speech is being suppressed." Somehow I doubt he and his gang will invade A+, even though that's one online a/s forum where there is a blatantly obvious speech suppression problem.

http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/ ... ent-576993
http://www.freezepage.com/1363043806VSMARNJSOS

What, they're going to come in here and say "NO" again?

[JackSkeptic]

Hey Wonderist - sounds like you've got a baboon who thinks his mad skillz exceed yours:

I have a proposal with respect to online harassment. I want to meet, and maybe train Rhetorical Assassins and organize ethical counter strikes in online forums where speech is being suppressed.

Now that I just dropped a bunch of very loaded words let me define them and my intentions for you.

Harassment
What I defined here,
http://www.michaelnugent.com/2013/03/03 ... ent-196218
…when arguing with the Projectionists from the Pit. Why harasser instead of harass? Because the target is more important, we already know the behavior.
Individuals who have the effect of de facto emotionally draining the people they disagree with instead of exchanging ideas, and/or de facto replace communication with suppression of the message. This is a matter of basic human psychology and I will back this up with citations if you wish. When a person has to spend too much time dealing with:

*bullshit about appearance, sexuality, parentage, or any other insulting language instead of their message. This includes visual attacks like photoshoped images and disturbing visual spam
*misrepresentations, distortions, and outright deception concerning their position or person. This includes fake accounts pretending to be the person, and I will toss in hacked accounts because I can see that happening someday
*repetition of the above to a level that the victim can not keep up with and distracts from their message

It tires them out. Its human behavior designed to make the person give up and go away and “Win” instead of trying to be find out what the world is really like. I loathe it like nothing else.

Ethical Counterstrikes
I would define this as specifically responding to instances of harassment as fast as we can. Once there the object is not abuse, but will be perceived as an attack because of unavoidable human nature. Like it or not criticism is felt as abuse to a bully. I work in a middle school in a southern state and I see it every day. A harasser hates their behavior pointed out like nothing else so I assert that the perception of criticism be is a fact of reality in a combat situation, which is what the harasser is transforming place of communication into, a combat zone.

So I propose that volunteer squads of individuals with excellent critical and logical skills be organized into teams. The object of these teams is moral support, and rescue of the victims message. We do this with hyper-criticism shaped to direct the harassers comments back to the topic. Relentlessly, neutrally, and specifically. No insult is to be used that is not based on a real observation of behavior that is related to the suppression of the victims message.

Reality is to be respected, used, and deception is to be shunned as we do not mix ourselves with what they are.

Our target should be precisely defined, and our aims no less precise. Are you trying to hurt people, don’t do this. Are you trying to provide moral support, consider doing this. Are you trying to support someone having a right to have their ideas seriously considered in a general sense? Consider doing this. How would I define the most acceptable deliberate harm? You want to create a catharsis in your target.

How seriously should you take this? Consider that I try to have a neurobiologically consistent view of all human behavior. Discussion, argument, harassment, WHARRGARBLE. These are functions with structures and histories, and utterly relevant life histories, even in assholes. It’s not for fun.

Sounds like the 'Pit should be prepared for an influx of Brony-trained "Rhetorical Assassins," though I'm unsure how this place would qualify as a place where "speech is being suppressed." Somehow I doubt he and his gang will invade A+, even though that's one online a/s forum where there is a blatantly obvious speech suppression problem.

http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/ ... ent-576993
http://www.freezepage.com/1363043806VSMARNJSOS

What, they're going to come in here and say "NO" again?

It will be:

1. When did you stop beating your wife

2. Stop laughing at us!

3. Shouty shouty and links to other rad fems as 'evidence'

4. You're still laughing you rapists.

5. Flounce

6. That told 'em!!!

What I would like it to be:

1. Define a term

2. Present evidence for it

3. Discuss

4. Conclude or agree to disagree

5. Goto 1

[welch]

I have a proposal with respect to online harassment. I want to meet, and maybe train Rhetorical Assassins and organize ethical counter strikes in online forums where speech is being suppressed.

(...)

So I propose that volunteer squads of individuals with excellent critical and logical skills be organized into teams. The object of these teams is moral support, and rescue of the victims message. We do this with hyper-criticism shaped to direct the harassers comments back to the topic. Relentlessly, neutrally, and specifically. No insult is to be used that is not based on a real observation of behavior that is related to the suppression of the victims message.

(...)

http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/ ... ent-576993
http://www.freezepage.com/1363043806VSMARNJSOS

Has anyone had any interaction with Brony before? Because he seems to hold his rhetorical and argumentative abilities in great esteem

Well the training would be a group thing. I’m not going to pretend that I’m the only one that can be hyper analytical and reduce an idiot to gibbering mush that no one respects

Somehow I don't think his rhetorical assassins will fare very well when matched against the likes of Welch, Pitchguest and the rest of the pit's "rhetorical brotherhood".
Unless they have whores. Whores distract everyone.

My only comment to him is "Dude, sorry about the penis"

[welch]

Jan; Thank logic you didn't kill those cuties off! When is the Hagfish making its' entrance?

I'm waiting for the puffer fish

Not to mention Half-fish.

Plecostomus, now that sucks

What about lutefisk? Or gefelte fish? It's because you're an anti-semetic Norwegian hater isn't it?

FUck lutefisk. Wait, no. Never.

[welch]

(...)

http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/ ... ent-576993
http://www.freezepage.com/1363043806VSMARNJSOS

Has anyone had any interaction with Brony before? Because he seems to hold his rhetorical and argumentative abilities in great esteem

Well the training would be a group thing. I’m not going to pretend that I’m the only one that can be hyper analytical and reduce an idiot to gibbering mush that no one respects

Somehow I don't think his rhetorical assassins will fare very well when matched against the likes of Welch, Pitchguest and the rest of the pit's "rhetorical brotherhood".
Unless they have whores. Whores distract everyone.

Yeh. This caught my attention too: 'So I propose that volunteer squads of individuals with excellent critical and logical skills be organized into teams.'

Good luck with that.

Teams? .....Teams?............critical .....logical? Teams? I hope they try, I really do

Quite a few times I wished we we're inundated with people from FtB. It would be fun and I hope it happens.

It happened before in the original pit. It was about as much fun as watching slugs fall.

[AndrewV69]

What, they're going to come in here and say "NO" again?

I came across that weeks later and saw someone I liked had participated and I groaned. Fuck! I really thought she had better sense than that to participate in something so stupid.

Must have got carried away or something. I felt bad for her. One of the few on the baboon board that I believed to be able to argue honestly.

We may not have agreed. But I really liked her as a person for what I saw as integrity.

[ConcentratedH2O, OM]

Does this link work?

Yes, I was taken straight to a depraved scat video. Thanks.

[Michael K Gray]

What, they're going to come in here and say "NO" again?

Ni!

[ConcentratedH2O, OM]

It happened before in the original pit. It was about as much fun as watching slugs fall.

Your simile has aroused my interest (not a euphemism), which is more than they ever managed.

[welch]

It happened before in the original pit. It was about as much fun as watching slugs fall.

Your simile has aroused my interest (not a euphemism), which is more than they ever managed.

I have a knack for analogies.

[AndrewV69]

Emma Teitel at MacLeans weighs in and finds herself above all that.

Why women’s studies needs an extreme makeover
http://www2.macleans.ca/2013/03/08/why- ... -makeover/

It was clear that both the professor’s detractors and supporters were, overwhelmingly, nuts. And Dr. Fiamengo herself, was, standing at that podium, a buoy of relative reason in a sea of everything but. “Any movement can attract hysterical detraction and unsavoury allies,” she would tell me over the phone the next morning. “That is the risk one runs.”

She ends on this note:

Going into the talk last night I wasn’t convinced women’s studies needed overhauling. Now I’m positive that it does. Not because I believe fighting misandry is a legitimate humanitarian cause (LOL) or because Dr. Fiamengo’s speech was particularly insightful, but because her detractors—presumably, women’s studies’ finest—were so profoundly, not.

Happy women’s day, everyone.

Dear Emma,

You think you have seen nuts being nuts? Keep following this. I bet things are going to get even nuttier in the future.

[Steersman]

<snip>
http://mycatsaremygods.files.wordpress. ... sghost.png
"Corrective rape". Keeping that. Will try to use that in conversation.

Yea. And he would have been golden if he’d closed with: “RELAX people. It’s a lighthearted joke.” Do be sure to use that as well with the “corrective rape”. And you can say too that it was EBW herself – arbiter of what is right and decent – who gave her “Good Housekeeping Seal of Approval” on it as a joke.

But my recent comment on her site, screen-captured for posterity:
<snip>

EllenBeth has responded in her inimitable and inimical style, and to which I’ve thrown in another 2 cents:

http://i49.tinypic.com/28l6e54.jpg

Kind of cuts the legs out from under at least some of the claims of "nasty pushback" .... "Just joking around; nothing to see; move along" ....

[welch]

<snip>
http://mycatsaremygods.files.wordpress. ... sghost.png
"Corrective rape". Keeping that. Will try to use that in conversation.

Yea. And he would have been golden if he’d closed with: “RELAX people. It’s a lighthearted joke.” Do be sure to use that as well with the “corrective rape”. And you can say too that it was EBW herself – arbiter of what is right and decent – who gave her “Good Housekeeping Seal of Approval” on it as a joke.

But my recent comment on her site, screen-captured for posterity:
<snip>

EllenBeth has responded in her inimitable and inimical style, and to which I’ve thrown in another 2 cents:

http://i49.tinypic.com/28l6e54.jpg

Kind of cuts the legs out from under at least some of the claims of "nasty pushback" .... "Just joking around; nothing to see; move along" ....

You're gonna give that lady a stroke.




good job.

[KiwiInOz]

Just had to post this sickeningly cute gif for Barn Owl, from Jerry Coyne's blog.

http://whyevolutionistrue.files.wordpre ... =207&h=202

[ConcentratedH2O, OM]

It happened before in the original pit. It was about as much fun as watching slugs fall.

Your simile has aroused my interest (not a euphemism), which is more than they ever managed.

I have a knack for analogies.

Grammar Experts: who is correct in the above quotes?

[Bhurzum]

Jan; Thank logic you didn't kill those cuties off! When is the Hagfish making its' entrance?

I'd love to see an angler fish!

They give me the willies something awful!

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_JDGw005M2eE/S ... r_fish.jpg

[AndrewV69]

It happened before in the original pit. It was about as much fun as watching slugs fall.

Your simile has aroused my interest (not a euphemism), which is more than they ever managed.

I have a knack for analogies.

Grammar Experts: who is correct in the above quotes?

I dinna ... wait what?

[Steersman]

<snip>
EllenBeth has responded in her inimitable and inimical style, and to which I’ve thrown in another 2 cents:

http://i49.tinypic.com/28l6e54.jpg

Kind of cuts the legs out from under at least some of the claims of "nasty pushback" .... "Just joking around; nothing to see; move along" ....

You're gonna give that lady a stroke.

good job.

Thanks.

But rather remarkable and quite telling that she seems to have such a difficulty in seeing the hypocrisy in her various responses. Or maybe she doesn’t care. In any case, not a particularly good recommendation of her character for someone in her position in the atheist community ….

[16bitheretic]

Do all these 'freeze peach' idiots just plain not understand the philosophical basis that the right to free speech is built upon, or are they just being willfully ignorant/obtuse in their special-pleading whinging about how a private entity does not have to follow constitutional law? I'm seriously wondering...

they can't be THAT fucking stupid, can they?

IMO, yes, they can be, and they are. Yes, they are unwilling to admit to themselves the philosophical and practical reasons that free speech is so important. Certainly no one is obligated, on a private forum, to provide a platform for everyone/anyone to speak. But how you use your power to regular others' speech is extremely revealing about your motivations and your character. Your ability to engage dissenters and survive a sustained dialogue with people who disagree with you says a lot about the integrity of your views. Never mind the fact that in terms of winning hearts and minds, the careless use of the banhammer is one of the best ways to sow mistrust and empower your opposition.

I think part of the FREEZE PEACH thing is due to people putting more stock in emotional solidarity than rigorous and healthy debate. I can see how it might be useful in certain communities to ban extremely rude and trollish asshats, but when you get to FTB/Skepchick/A+ levels of banning dissent it's no longer about removing a useless element and more about taking offense that somebody would dare to ever question cherished beliefs and/or positions. The cries of FREEZE PEACH I think naturally follow when the echo-chambers ramp up and become more and more disassociated from everyday mainstream interaction. Seclusion from outside ideas creates a sort of mental xenophobia where keeping out all dissent becomes a thing to praise. It's quite sad to see this sort of thing in action.

[welch]

It happened before in the original pit. It was about as much fun as watching slugs fall.

Your simile has aroused my interest (not a euphemism), which is more than they ever managed.

I have a knack for analogies.

Grammar Experts: who is correct in the above quotes?

I don't believe the two are mutually exclusive

[welch]

Do all these 'freeze peach' idiots just plain not understand the philosophical basis that the right to free speech is built upon, or are they just being willfully ignorant/obtuse in their special-pleading whinging about how a private entity does not have to follow constitutional law? I'm seriously wondering...

they can't be THAT fucking stupid, can they?

IMO, yes, they can be, and they are. Yes, they are unwilling to admit to themselves the philosophical and practical reasons that free speech is so important. Certainly no one is obligated, on a private forum, to provide a platform for everyone/anyone to speak. But how you use your power to regular others' speech is extremely revealing about your motivations and your character. Your ability to engage dissenters and survive a sustained dialogue with people who disagree with you says a lot about the integrity of your views. Never mind the fact that in terms of winning hearts and minds, the careless use of the banhammer is one of the best ways to sow mistrust and empower your opposition.

I think part of the FREEZE PEACH thing is due to people putting more stock in emotional solidarity than rigorous and healthy debate. I can see how it might be useful in certain communities to ban extremely rude and trollish asshats, but when you get to FTB/Skepchick/A+ levels of banning dissent it's no longer about removing a useless element and more about taking offense that somebody would dare to ever question cherished beliefs and/or positions. The cries of FREEZE PEACH I think naturally follow when the echo-chambers ramp up and become more and more disassociated from everyday mainstream interaction. Seclusion from outside ideas creates a sort of mental xenophobia where keeping out all dissent becomes a thing to praise. It's quite sad to see this sort of thing in action.

Pretty much. I know rather a lot of moderated forums. The rules are laid out, and followed, and one of the biggest is "if you have a problem with how you are moderated, you will handle it "offline" via email or pm's". Trying to publicly shame a mod is the fastest way to get banned from almost all of them.

Why are the forums moderated? To ensure that disagreements and similar do not get out of hand. Not in the asinine way A+ does things mind you, but to keep the overall emotional level reasonably calm.