Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

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Apples
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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#10201

Post by Apples »

welch wrote:
Wonderist wrote:
Apples wrote:
Wonderist wrote:And the trap continues to close
What are you getting at? What happens when the trap is sprung?
Ophelia gets free fodder for her victim complex and to influence the mainstream more toward her way of thinking, and further from skepticism of her ideology. Effortless victim cred, courtesy of Tuvok. She doesn't even have to be right. Tuvok just has to appear plausibly wrong.
Evidently, the entire population of the PLANET is watching this idiocy and about to render a judgement.
So, Wonderist - what are you getting at? Are you saying people should try to be strictly accurate when they make claims? Thanks for the tip. If it hadn't been Tuvok's comment it would have been something else. This shit has been going down for years. What do you want - Tuvok to apologize to Ophelia? Forget it.

Wonderist
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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#10202

Post by Wonderist »

welch wrote:Yes folks. FEAR THE TRAP. Because what might happen?

PEOPLE GIVE OPHELIA BENSON MONEY.

Sweet Cthulu, if that's your idea of a trap, I bet someone popping a balloon makes you shit your drawers.
By the way, welch, how's that whole "MOCK THEM" hammer-for-want-of-a-nail thing working out for ya? https://dissentionisnothate.wordpress.c ... comment-33

Up for another couple rounds? Maybe you'll get lucky this time, and it will magically start to work. You never know. Oolon's been trying pretty hard. He *almost* got me worked up (not really), but all he managed to end up doing was apologize to me: http://www.michaelnugent.com/2013/03/15 ... ent-202426

JackSkeptic
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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#10203

Post by JackSkeptic »

Apples wrote:
Wonderist wrote:And the trap continues to close
What are you getting at? What happens when the trap is sprung?
Nugent shuts down the conversations.

Lurkion
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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#10204

Post by Lurkion »

cunt wrote:Where's she promoting that site? Judgybitch is the same one Andrewv69 was citing as proof that the best thing a smart woman can do is have boys.
My mistake - Apples said OB was promoting but she was using scare-quotes - it looks like OB actually condemns this site (but not because of this post but one about Steubenville). I wonder what OB would say about the post I had linked.

See:

http://freethoughtblogs.com/butterflies ... somewhere/

Lurkion
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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#10205

Post by Lurkion »

cunt wrote:Where's she promoting that site? Judgybitch is the same one Andrewv69 was citing as proof that the best thing a smart woman can do is have boys.
My mistake - Apples said OB was promoting but she was using scare-quotes - it looks like OB actually condemns this site (but not because of this post but one about Steubenville). I wonder what OB would say about the post I had linked.

See:

http://freethoughtblogs.com/butterflies ... somewhere/

Lurkion
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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#10206

Post by Lurkion »

Apples wrote:
rocko2466 wrote:Holy shit.

Read this:

http://judgybitch.com/2013/03/19/two-tr ... e-outside/

I heard OB was promoting this site. Talk about a fucking rape culture and victim-blaming.

Is there a rape culture in modern feminism?

Holy shit.
:) Not promoting. She was condemning it - she copy-pasta'd the post on Steubenville. I put "promote" in scare-quotes -- same way she "promotes" the 'Pit all the time by talking about it constantly.

B/t/w - you got any dramatic readings/musical numbers in the work?
Yeah, my mistake.

I got one in the works atm, but it's a bit slow going because of the play I'm rehearsing for.

Lurkion
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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#10207

Post by Lurkion »

Wonderist wrote:And the trap continues to close, while Tuvok twiddles his thumbs:
http://freethoughtblogs.com/butterflies ... arassment/
http://www.freezepage.com/1363747378IDPBWKEQAF
Page o’ nonstop monitoring and harassment

Notes and Comment Blog

by Ophelia Benson

March 19

awfuljst

No. But what’s going on at Nugent’s blog is not “critical commentary”; it’s endless repetitive smearing by people such as “tina” and “Eu” and “Jack” and “Trophy” – it might as well be by people such as 1 and 2 and 3 and 4, or A and B and C and D. I’m not interested in “dialogue” with people who use anonymity to smear real, named people with no risk to their own reputations.

dumbfuck



Sara E. Mayhew

If it’s libel, it’s illegal, and you should sue, not blog. But Ophelia Benson doesn’t know That’s (not) libel http://freethoughtblogs.com/butterflies ... -libel/‎

Commentary.

Nonsense. There’s no moral imperative to sue for libel. It’s not true that “if it’s libel, you should sue.” There can be (and are) principled reasons for not suing.

It’s also not true that you should sue and not blog. There can be (and are) principled reasons for blogging, too, just as there are principled reasons for blogging about incessant harassment and monitoring and smearing.

Sara Mayhew is way too preoccupied with me.
Fuck you Ophelia. We use pseudonyms because people like you call us 'misogynists' or lie about us on your blogs when we speak out about a morally corrupt and scientifically unsound ideology that you spew forth.

My business isn't blogging. My business also isn't political. So I can't use my real name to be politically active in that respect.

Lurkion
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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#10208

Post by Lurkion »

Submariner wrote:Ah, it is a dark satire. It's comparing the Steubenville rape to what the reaction would be if the genders were reversed.
Ahhhh I'm a failure as a skeptic.

welch
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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#10209

Post by welch »

Wonderist wrote:
welch wrote:Yes folks. FEAR THE TRAP. Because what might happen?

PEOPLE GIVE OPHELIA BENSON MONEY.

Sweet Cthulu, if that's your idea of a trap, I bet someone popping a balloon makes you shit your drawers.
By the way, welch, how's that whole "MOCK THEM" hammer-for-want-of-a-nail thing working out for ya? https://dissentionisnothate.wordpress.c ... comment-33

Up for another couple rounds? Maybe you'll get lucky this time, and it will magically start to work. You never know. Oolon's been trying pretty hard. He *almost* got me worked up (not really), but all he managed to end up doing was apologize to me: http://www.michaelnugent.com/2013/03/15 ... ent-202426
Given I'm not the one crying wolf about imaginary traps, pretty fucking good. How's hiding from the bitch bad wolf working for you?

DeepInsideYourMind
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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#10210

Post by DeepInsideYourMind »

welch wrote:
Wonderist wrote:
Apples wrote:
Wonderist wrote:And the trap continues to close
What are you getting at? What happens when the trap is sprung?
Ophelia gets free fodder for her victim complex and to influence the mainstream more toward her way of thinking, and further from skepticism of her ideology. Effortless victim cred, courtesy of Tuvok. She doesn't even have to be right. Tuvok just has to appear plausibly wrong.
Evidently, the entire population of the PLANET is watching this idiocy and about to render a judgement.

I know a fair few "hardcore" atheists who go out of their way to combat religious nutters, science-denialists, etc etc ... and none of them have a clue who PZ, Benson, FTB, or any of the rest of them are....

Indeed - they are small fry in the grand scheme of things. They have tainted any name they may have had, and will be forgotten before long.

Submariner
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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#10211

Post by Submariner »

rocko2466 wrote:
Submariner wrote:Ah, it is a dark satire. It's comparing the Steubenville rape to what the reaction would be if the genders were reversed.
Ahhhh I'm a failure as a skeptic.
I still love you, Rocko.

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#10212

Post by Wonderist »

Apples wrote:
welch wrote:
Wonderist wrote:
Apples wrote:
Wonderist wrote:And the trap continues to close
What are you getting at? What happens when the trap is sprung?
Ophelia gets free fodder for her victim complex and to influence the mainstream more toward her way of thinking, and further from skepticism of her ideology. Effortless victim cred, courtesy of Tuvok. She doesn't even have to be right. Tuvok just has to appear plausibly wrong.
Evidently, the entire population of the PLANET is watching this idiocy and about to render a judgement.
So, Wonderist - what are you getting at? Are you saying people should try to be strictly accurate when they make claims?
I am most definitely *NOT* saying anyone *SHOULD* do such and such. That would be a totally douchey thing to do. But I *will* express my opinions on what I think would *probably work better* vs. what I think would *probably work less well* or even has a potentially *higher risk of backfiring*.
Thanks for the tip. If it hadn't been Tuvok's comment it would have been something else. This shit has been going down for years. What do you want - Tuvok to apologize to Ophelia? Forget it.
If it hadn't have been for the surgeon's unwashed hands, it would have been the rusty scalpel. :doh:

I know it's been going down for years. I've been watching it go down for years. And before that I watched it go down for years with the RRS and the rumour-mill against them. And before that I watched it go down for years against myself when I was the only outspoken atheist in my class as a kid.

I know how this shit works. I've been working on this problem for a long time. I can spot traps just as well as welch, if not better, and I can warn people off of the traps, just like welch did (rather well, I might add) in his NMD article.

Want to know who's been through this since EG till now, and come out squeaky clean? Me. I know how to avoid this shit. Listen. Or ignore. That's up to you.

And I know that sounds incredibly arrogant and pompous. That doesn't make it wrong though. It just makes me an asshole sometimes. But an asshole who's still right.

Let it rain down! Your most sarcastic barbs in retort. Your most elegant satirical lashings. Your photoshops and your shit-flinging.

Let it all out.

Let's get all that bullshit out of the way, so we can get down to business.

None of it will affect me. None of it will change the raw, basic truth. There are more effective ways of dealing with these dogmatists, and there are less effective ways. And I don't pretend I know all the best ways. Nor do I pretend that there's only one way, or that everyone should do it all the same way (actually, I think rather the opposite of that, that there should be a wide variety of approaches).

All I'm claiming is that some ways work better than others, and *if* you'd prefer to be as effective as you can, *then* use the techniques that work the best. And avoid the ones that tend to backfire.

That's it. I've been saying the *exact same thing* since I wrote this: http://www.rationalresponders.com/still_unapologetic

"What do you want - Tuvok to apologize to Ophelia? Forget it."

I don't *want* Tuvok to do anything. I've said from the start he can do as he pleases. Who am I to tell anyone what to do? I pointed out the *risks* of doing nothing, and I pointed out two *options* I could think of to *avoid* those risks. That's just raw information. He can ignore it or whatever the fuck. Entirely up to him. Just like Ophelia is entirely free to act like a dogmatist, and I'm entirely free to point out her dogmatism. What's the problem with that?

Am I actually wrong? Can you quote where I've made a false claim, and show that it's false? I would be delighted if you did. I love to correct my errors. I'm not being facetious there. I'm serious. I'm wide open to negative constructive criticism. That's how I keep myself in check.

Did I not call exactly what happened?

You say, well it would have happened anyway. No it wouldn't have. Ophelia would have had a much slower news day. She wouldn't have gotten her five or ten dollars or whatever the donation was. More importantly, Tuvok, welch, Steersman, and yourself, and others, not to mention Sara Mayhew who's now tangled up in this *nothing*, would have been able to spend that time doing more productive and *effective* things. Perhaps we collectively could have taken action that would have *drained* Ophelia of motivation. But no. Instead, she got a free gift. Entirely, 100% preventable and avoidable.

Why not avoid it? Why walk right into the trap? Why give her a free gift?

This is a game of attrition. It's a marathon, not a sprint. The long term is all that matters.

welch
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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#10213

Post by welch »

Wonderist wrote:
Apples wrote:
welch wrote:
Wonderist wrote:
Apples wrote:
What are you getting at? What happens when the trap is sprung?
Ophelia gets free fodder for her victim complex and to influence the mainstream more toward her way of thinking, and further from skepticism of her ideology. Effortless victim cred, courtesy of Tuvok. She doesn't even have to be right. Tuvok just has to appear plausibly wrong.
Evidently, the entire population of the PLANET is watching this idiocy and about to render a judgement.
So, Wonderist - what are you getting at? Are you saying people should try to be strictly accurate when they make claims?
I am most definitely *NOT* saying anyone *SHOULD* do such and such. That would be a totally douchey thing to do. But I *will* express my opinions on what I think would *probably work better* vs. what I think would *probably work less well* or even has a potentially *higher risk of backfiring*.
Thanks for the tip. If it hadn't been Tuvok's comment it would have been something else. This shit has been going down for years. What do you want - Tuvok to apologize to Ophelia? Forget it.
If it hadn't have been for the surgeon's unwashed hands, it would have been the rusty scalpel. :doh:

I know it's been going down for years. I've been watching it go down for years. And before that I watched it go down for years with the RRS and the rumour-mill against them. And before that I watched it go down for years against myself when I was the only outspoken atheist in my class as a kid.

I know how this shit works. I've been working on this problem for a long time. I can spot traps just as well as welch, if not better, and I can warn people off of the traps, just like welch did (rather well, I might add) in his NMD article.

Want to know who's been through this since EG till now, and come out squeaky clean? Me. I know how to avoid this shit. Listen. Or ignore. That's up to you.

And I know that sounds incredibly arrogant and pompous. That doesn't make it wrong though. It just makes me an asshole sometimes. But an asshole who's still right.

Let it rain down! Your most sarcastic barbs in retort. Your most elegant satirical lashings. Your photoshops and your shit-flinging.

Let it all out.

Let's get all that bullshit out of the way, so we can get down to business.

None of it will affect me. None of it will change the raw, basic truth. There are more effective ways of dealing with these dogmatists, and there are less effective ways. And I don't pretend I know all the best ways. Nor do I pretend that there's only one way, or that everyone should do it all the same way (actually, I think rather the opposite of that, that there should be a wide variety of approaches).

All I'm claiming is that some ways work better than others, and *if* you'd prefer to be as effective as you can, *then* use the techniques that work the best. And avoid the ones that tend to backfire.

That's it. I've been saying the *exact same thing* since I wrote this: http://www.rationalresponders.com/still_unapologetic

"What do you want - Tuvok to apologize to Ophelia? Forget it."

I don't *want* Tuvok to do anything. I've said from the start he can do as he pleases. Who am I to tell anyone what to do? I pointed out the *risks* of doing nothing, and I pointed out two *options* I could think of to *avoid* those risks. That's just raw information. He can ignore it or whatever the fuck. Entirely up to him. Just like Ophelia is entirely free to act like a dogmatist, and I'm entirely free to point out her dogmatism. What's the problem with that?

Am I actually wrong? Can you quote where I've made a false claim, and show that it's false? I would be delighted if you did. I love to correct my errors. I'm not being facetious there. I'm serious. I'm wide open to negative constructive criticism. That's how I keep myself in check.

Did I not call exactly what happened?

You say, well it would have happened anyway. No it wouldn't have. Ophelia would have had a much slower news day. She wouldn't have gotten her five or ten dollars or whatever the donation was. More importantly, Tuvok, welch, Steersman, and yourself, and others, not to mention Sara Mayhew who's now tangled up in this *nothing*, would have been able to spend that time doing more productive and *effective* things. Perhaps we collectively could have taken action that would have *drained* Ophelia of motivation. But no. Instead, she got a free gift. Entirely, 100% preventable and avoidable.

Why not avoid it? Why walk right into the trap? Why give her a free gift?

This is a game of attrition. It's a marathon, not a sprint. The long term is all that matters.
The rational response squad? Really "thaumas"?

Snerk.

How's kasey?

That explains so much. Especially your need to make it sound like the whole world is watching. Because if that's not true, and really, it isn't, then you and your band of loons have not only had your fifteen minutes, but you can't even capitalize on that any more.

The last remnants of the RRS telling us that OMG, IF BENSON'S TRAP IS SPRUNG, WE'RE ALL FUCKED.

Bless. Your. Heart.

AndrewV69
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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#10214

Post by AndrewV69 »

rocko2466 wrote:Holy shit.

Read this:

http://judgybitch.com/2013/03/19/two-tr ... e-outside/

I heard OB was promoting this site. Talk about a fucking rape culture and victim-blaming.

Is there a rape culture in modern feminism?

Holy shit.
Welcome to the Manosphere!

(which also includes MRAs and PUAs some overlap and others dislike each other)

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Ophie

#10215

Post by mordacious1 »

Opheliar keeps bringing up the, "These people don't use their real names, so we can ignore their arguments" crap. She uses her name because it benefits her. She doesn't have a real job or a family to protect. If she cannot win the argument by using logic, she can always dismiss the point being made against her by saying, "Well, this person won't use their real name, so I win". That is utter bullshit. She's a moron.

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#10216

Post by Wonderist »

welch wrote:
Wonderist wrote:Welch, you haven't been paying attention. It's not about me or you or Ophelia or Tuvok, it's about the mainstream onlookers, watching. In which direction have they been influenced in this exchange? More towards waking up to the reality that a dogma is infesting the atheist/skeptic communities? Or more towards thinking the dogmatists are actually the victims and there really *is* a campaign of hate and harassment against them?

What would the Mick Nugents of the atheist/skeptic world think about this blog post from Ophelia? Wow, Ophelia's gone off the deep end? Or, wow, Ophelia really does seem to have a point?

Take a wild guess.

All of this could have been prevented. Nipped in the bud. Pointless waste of all of your time.

Me pointing out the waste of time? Not a waste of time if it prevents wasted time in the future. Which it will.
What fucking "mainstream onlookers"?

You keep talking about this, and all I hear is lots of hot air, but no fucking proof that any of this matters outside of the players.

show me proof of that.
I posted the link before: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crossing_the_Chasm

I'm using the lingo of that book. That's the term used to describe getting an idea from a fringe-ish 'early adopter' segment of the population into a larger 'mainstream' segment. The 'mainstream' I'm referring to are 'mainstream' skeptics/athiests, not mainstream as in 'mainstream media'. Not the larger public of the world, the larger public of the atheist/skeptical movement. The Michael Nugents, the Jerry Coynes, the Ron Lindsays, the average everyday members of CFI, American Atheists, BHA, and all the other, well, 'mainstream' groups and organizations out there. The ones who are going to have harassment policies thrust on them; who are going to have Hensleys infiltrating them; who are going to have Watsons and Myers giving talks at them.

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#10217

Post by AndrewV69 »

cunt wrote:Where's she promoting that site? Judgybitch is the same one Andrewv69 was citing as proof that the best thing a smart woman can do is have boys.
And then someone reminded me that the fastest way to increase the population is one guy and a whole bunch of women ... then I got distracted at the thought of what it would be like to be that one guy and forgot the rest of the point and ...

Sorry ... what were we talking about again?

Submariner
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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#10218

Post by Submariner »

Unrelated to anything:

[youtube]f1mRe64_C9c[/youtube]

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#10219

Post by Aneris »

Wonderist wrote:
Apples wrote:
Wonderist wrote:And the trap continues to close
What are you getting at? What happens when the trap is sprung?
Ophelia gets free fodder for her victim complex and to influence the mainstream more toward her way of thinking, and further from skepticism of her ideology. Effortless victim cred, courtesy of Tuvok. She doesn't even have to be right. Tuvok just has to appear plausibly wrong.
But easily defused. I haven't followed the whole argument, but just compare the situation: "\o/ Oh Noes! Someone claims I have said 'chill girl'" (or what it was) versus "Person X is a misogynist, rapist, rape-enabler, future daughter rapist" etc, aka common FfTB style. If a future employer, your new girl-boyfriend, next date, friends, family, future generations autocomplete your name like that, the issue should be very clear even to emotionally deprived and emphatically challenged individuals like Benson and Co. (and certainly lurkers, if that's what you worry about). Now, I don't know exactly how Ophelia handles the situation, but given that the same crap users like Janine, Sally Strange and Co appear to participate on her blog, I hazard the guess that it happens there as well. So I read her libel thread as hypocritical up to eleven.

In pretty much all cases, these people try to force you to explain yourself. They then mine it and then try to extort more explanations and so forth. It's a deliberate offense tactic mentioned in the previous post. Sidestep and turn it around. Have her explain why this is libel. Have her explain on which grounds this misattribution (at best) of these words are a problem, since the significance of these terms are her standards, which aren't generally accepted. Plus, when these terms are used by her peers or fans she'd have a hard time to convince anyone that a misattribution is damaging the user's reputation. But don't go there too much. Ask her, why she has issues with it, while more severe accusations (i.e. misogynist etc.) are common on FfTB and she never seemed to have an issue with these...

Provided Tuvok would posted under his real name, which Ophelia bemoans he didn't. He would then walk away as a misogynist-racist etc. whatever with his real name, thanks to FTB common "way of discussing". It makes even easier to play it back to her.

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#10220

Post by Wonderist »

welch wrote: The rational response squad? Really "thaumas"?

Snerk.

How's kasey?
I don't know. Why don't you ask her? She hasn't been a member for years now. I never really knew her myself.
That explains so much.
It does, eh? What does it explain, in your mind?
Especially your need to make it sound like the whole world is watching. Because if that's not true, and really, it isn't, then you and your band of loons have not only had your fifteen minutes, but you can't even capitalize on that any more.
And when you realize that you misinterpreted what I meant by 'mainstream', because you didn't scan my earlier link explaining it, nor bother to ask before jumping to conclusions about it, will you have the guts to admit you were wrong? Or will you let your ego put up its defences and double-down on your assumptions? Setting yourself up for a bigger and bigger fail, with each doubling-down?
The last remnants of the RRS telling us that OMG, IF BENSON'S TRAP IS SPRUNG, WE'RE ALL FUCKED.
The RRS is still active. You might call it the proto-Slymepit, actually. Very much the same commenting policy, though not quite as far as no deletions/bannings at all. I still monitor it, but I'm no longer active there. What's your point?
Bless. Your. Heart.
Is that your hammer again? This is the internet. It doesn't work, man. I already proved that to you in your own thread. I can prove it to you again if you want. Here, I'll give you some ego-juice by calling it before you really get going:

Your strategy of "MOCK THEM" will have exactly zero effectiveness on me. Prove me wrong.


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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#10222

Post by Wonderist »

welch wrote:
Wonderist wrote:
welch wrote:Yes folks. FEAR THE TRAP. Because what might happen?

PEOPLE GIVE OPHELIA BENSON MONEY.

Sweet Cthulu, if that's your idea of a trap, I bet someone popping a balloon makes you shit your drawers.
By the way, welch, how's that whole "MOCK THEM" hammer-for-want-of-a-nail thing working out for ya? https://dissentionisnothate.wordpress.c ... comment-33

Up for another couple rounds? Maybe you'll get lucky this time, and it will magically start to work. You never know. Oolon's been trying pretty hard. He *almost* got me worked up (not really), but all he managed to end up doing was apologize to me: http://www.michaelnugent.com/2013/03/15 ... ent-202426
Given I'm not the one crying wolf about imaginary traps, pretty fucking good. How's hiding from the bitch bad wolf working for you?
Hiding? Covering my ass, sure. Hiding? Hardly.

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#10223

Post by Southern »

katamari Damassi wrote:Looks like Peezus is taking a beating on Shakesville for not being a real feminist. I'm not sure how I feel about this.
Poor P... no, I can't even finish this sentence.

You should feel like sitting on a good comfy chair, and hungry for popcorn. Then just watch the show.

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#10224

Post by Southern »

Oh my. I take one week off and suddenly there are people here discussing if Ophelia Fucking Benson is relevant or not? For Pope Francis's sake...

If someone would take interest on this shitty feud, they would go and read PZ Fucking Myers, who at least was cited in God's Dellusion, not some copy-pasta crazy cat lady ranting on Twitter.

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#10225

Post by JackSkeptic »

CommanderTuvok wrote:http://i.imgur.com/xXLn3pM.jpg

Nice to see they are retaining a sense of humour fully aware us ebil slympitters will note it. It got me a smile:)

Actually I agree, suing is out of the question for several reasons. I'm not too excited that was handed to her on a plate though but that's not my call.

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#10226

Post by Wonderist »

Aneris wrote:
Wonderist wrote:
Apples wrote:
Wonderist wrote:And the trap continues to close
What are you getting at? What happens when the trap is sprung?
Ophelia gets free fodder for her victim complex and to influence the mainstream more toward her way of thinking, and further from skepticism of her ideology. Effortless victim cred, courtesy of Tuvok. She doesn't even have to be right. Tuvok just has to appear plausibly wrong.
But easily defused.
Most easily, yes. Assuming you defuse it early enough. Easily avoided altogether, too. Clock's still ticking on this trap. Tuvok's still got a chance to defuse it before it finally closes all the way. But he's just pissing that chance away so far.
I haven't followed the whole argument, but just compare the situation: "\o/ Oh Noes! Someone claims I have said 'chill girl'" (or what it was) versus "Person X is a misogynist, rapist, rape-enabler, future daughter rapist" etc, aka common FfTB style. If a future employer, your new girl-boyfriend, next date, friends, family, future generations autocomplete your name like that, the issue should be very clear even to emotionally deprived and emphatically challenged individuals like Benson and Co. (and certainly lurkers, if that's what you worry about). Now, I don't know exactly how Ophelia handles the situation, but given that the same crap users like Janine, Sally Strange and Co appear to participate on her blog, I hazard the guess that it happens there as well. So I read her libel thread as hypocritical up to eleven.
Again, I must stress, my point is not about Tuvok himself, or Ophelia, or Tuvok's friends/family or me or welch or any *specific* person here. My point is about the long term effort to ditch these dogmatists, by convincing mainstream skeptics/atheists that a) there's a real problem, b) that it either affects them right now, or will soon affect them, and c) that they can and should start doing something about it. Basically, to wake the fuck up. Vs. Ophelia's et al's long term efforts to ditch us, convince these same mainstream skeptics/atheists that they're actually victims of some hate campaign, etc.

We can be lazy and ignore risks and warning signs, use half-assed methods that tend to back-fire, or we can use our heads and start thinking more tactically and strategically, to use the better methods and avoid the lesser and riskier ones (especially the ones that tend to back-fire).

Our choices of lesser or better methods will directly affect our *effectiveness* at achieving the long term goal of ditching the dogma.

My point was and is: Tuvok's method back-fired, giving Ophelia a chance to set a trap. She set it, Tuvok walked into it, and he could have avoided it with at least two options I could think of. The trap's half-sprung, but he still has a chance to get out before he gets stuck too deep in it. But doing nothing will just continue to give Ophelia a free lunch.

The consequences I'm talking about are not that Ophelia has a libel case or whatever. That's entirely a side-issue, a distraction. It is, in fact, the trap.

The consequences are that letting Ophelia call it libel, without debunking her quickly and publicly, has the practical effect of influencing the mainstream skeptic/atheist onlookers more towards the FTB-victim narrative, and further from the wake the fuck up message. It's counter-productive, a waste of time and effort, and entirely avoidable.
In pretty much all cases, these people try to force you to explain yourself. They then mine it and then try to extort more explanations and so forth.
Exactly. That's exactly what I mean by 'the trap'. A different way of saying the same thing. Probably clearer even.
It's a deliberate offense tactic mentioned in the previous post. Sidestepp/quote]
Exactly. Sidestep was my suggestion as well. I gave two options: rock-solid rebuttal, or look up the law and do whatever the law requires to retract.
and turn it around.
See, this is where I left options open for Tuvok to come up with his own idea that's even better. And that's exactly what you're doing here. I couldn't see a turn-around myself, but if you see one, cool.
Have her explain why this is libel. Have her explain on which grounds this misattribution (at best) of these words are a problem, since the significance of these terms are her standards, which aren't generally accepted. Plus, when these terms are used by her peers or fans she'd have a hard time to convince anyone that a misattribution is damaging the user's reputation. But don't go there too much. Ask her, why she has issues with it, while more severe accusations (i.e. misogynist etc.) are common on FfTB and she never seemed to have an issue with these...
Personally, i wouldn't know how to pull that off, but if you've got ideas on how to do it, that would be a third option. I would expect that Ophelia would just ignore my challenges/questions and continue blathering to her fans, so I can't see how to get her to have to explain herself. She's damn slippy that way. I tend to stick to actions I can control myself, like writing up a rock-solid defense or just apologizing up front before shit gets too deep.

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#10227

Post by JackSkeptic »

Wonderist, I think you need to consider everyone has different ways of dealing with things. I have already said the accusation of lying, no matter how well supported, was not a good move but there you have it. Others do. I personally prefer a less confrontational approach but then I have not, yet, been the subject of any attacks myself. I may well change were that to happen so I do not blame others for doing things the way they feel is right.

I agree it may be best to have a coherent narrative but that will never happen. In some ways it is a great strength that we often disagree rather than all sound like FtB clones. That does mean our aims may clash at times. I really did not want yet another damn issue come up again at Nugent's as I knew they were waiting for one. Its like we are jinxed.

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#10228

Post by Lapsang Souchong »

The late great Baden Powell, ladies and gentlemen:

[youtube]fM2uqUDmue8[/youtube]

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#10229

Post by ConcentratedH2O, OM »

Lapsang Souchong wrote:The late great Baden Powell, ladies and gentlemen:

[youtube]fM2uqUDmue8[/youtube]

Wow. Hehe. Those people seem to think they are the coolest thing since absolute zero.

Was this your point? Do they represent FfTB, Skepchick and A+Theism? I can totally see Meyers, Caine, Opheliar, Svan, Whatnot and Titwobble sat around like that, basically wanking each other and sex-moaning about how wonderful they each are.

Meyers needs a lot of help, but eventually cums. Someone holds a set of Business Class tickets to Dublin in front of his neck-bearded face, and he just lets go. Opheliar cums last, and it's like squeezing a bottle of talcum powder through a keyhole.

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#10230

Post by BannedAid »

Michael Shermer's latest SciAm piece, while it doesn't explicitly reference the Great Rift, seems strangely relevant. I'll just Ophelia a bit here:
Michale Shermer wrote:When you add an element of punishment for those who challenge the norm, pluralistic ignorance can transmogrify into purges, pogroms and repressive political regimes. European witch hunts, like their Soviet counterparts centuries later, degenerated into preemptive accusations of guilt, lest one be thought guilty first. Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn described a party conference in which Joseph Stalin was given a standing ovation that went on for 11 minutes, until a factory director finally sat down to the relief of everyone. The man was arrested later that night and sent to the gulag for a decade. A 2009 study by Michael Macy and his colleagues confirmed the effect: “People enforce unpopular norms to show that they have complied out of genuine conviction and not because of social pressure.”

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#10231

Post by JackSkeptic »

I'm going round in circles at Nugent's. I don't think I have said anything new in two weeks. I wish people would read what has already been posted before they wade in.

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#10232

Post by rayshul »

rocko2466 wrote:
John Brown wrote:Can anyone here point me to a good history of the concept of "rape culture?" I'm also looking for a scholarly critique of it as well.
Read feminism 101. I'm not your teacher. Asshole.

Oh wait. This isn't my atheism+ account.

... I second that call for a link to a good history. I'm interested in reading up on it - it seems to be trickling down into normal-people-speak and I'm getting concerned that the morons are taking advantage of the Steubenville case to push a nonsense sociopolitical theory.
Rape culture wank is all over my facebook right now. Driving me nuts. It's not a fucking thing.

michaelj

Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#10233

Post by michaelj »

welch wrote:
Christ you stupid fat fuck, GET SPONSORS, ACTUAL SPONSORS THAT PAY YOU FUCKING MONEY.

For christ's sake, it is not that goddamned hard to pay bandwidth bills. If you want to save more money, host the entire thing out of Amazon S3. This is not that hard, and in theory, he has an actual IT person working for him, although I think Bieber's definition of "IT" is "I wrote a crontab once".

This is what happens when you have people who understand neither business or technology running a technology business. Every day, MILLIONS of web sites with higher volume than that wart on a hog's ass manage to stay afloat with ease.

This, by the way, is why FTB will not be a worry for long. Because it is run by incompetent fuckwits who, rather than analyzing their situation with proper SMEs, instead careen from one magic pony to another.

I'd just like to note for the record that early on, I did in fact try to offer some reasonably helpful solutions to brayton. I did in fact, try to fucking help.

But what, after all, would *I* know.
Rifts aside, FTB does nothing to encourage somebody to read it. No doubt the echo chamber will think that they are wonderful but to have a front page that shows the last 2 posts of the 36 bloggers in 2013 is disgusting. Having pop-up ads makes me think I have wandered onto a spam site.

They are asking us to pay for the privilege of having to dig through 36 silos of information to maybe find something interesting to read.

The problem is that they are all lazy SOBs. If Ed spent 40 hours a week (or paid somebody) on FTB editing and organising the site to turn it into something like Patheos or Huffpo then I think that he would be getting a reasonable income.

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#10234

Post by rayshul »

Jack wrote:I'm going round in circles at Nugent's. I don't think I have said anything new in two weeks. I wish people would read what has already been posted before they wade in.
I'm enjoying reading your comments although I have to say I can see it's quite tiring.

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#10235

Post by Lapsang Souchong »

ConcentratedH2O, OM wrote:
Lapsang Souchong wrote:The late great Baden Powell, ladies and gentlemen:

[youtube]fM2uqUDmue8[/youtube]

Wow. Hehe. Those people seem to think they are the coolest thing since absolute zero.

Was this your point? Do they represent FfTB, Skepchick and A+Theism? I can totally see Meyers, Caine, Opheliar, Svan, Whatnot and Titwobble sat around like that, basically wanking each other and sex-moaning about how wonderful they each are.

Meyers needs a lot of help, but eventually cums. Someone holds a set of Business Class tickets to Dublin in front of his neck-bearded face, and he just lets go. Opheliar cums last, and it's like squeezing a bottle of talcum powder through a keyhole.
Indeed they are cool. Are you suggesting I suck your dick or something?

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#10236

Post by Wonderist »

Jack wrote:Wonderist, I think you need to consider everyone has different ways of dealing with things.
Thanks Jack. I assure you, I'm very aware of that. Have been since before I joined the RRS forum, when I was on the Infidel Guy forums. That was always the prevailing attitude: everyone has their own ways of doing things. In fact, having people with many ways of doing things is a strength. I fully endorse that idea.

And *also* some ways of doing things, practically speaking, *work better* than others. That's not to say they are *wrong* if they are less effective. But it is to say that they are *less effective*. Simple fact. No value judgment on that. Some cars are faster than others, too. Or safer than others, or this or that benefit or side-effect. This is just basic pragmatism.

And I go further. The techniques that work for *me* best, may not be the ones that work for *you* best. It depends on so many things, not just situational context, but one's personality and comfort zone, and many other factors.

I repeat: I don't pretend I know all the best ways, nor that there's only one way, nor that everyone should use the same way.

Here's an excerpt from that article I wrote, Sept 2011, just after EG was dying down (bold emphasis added):
The important thing here is the tactics. The strategy. The long term.

I spoke out. I kept my cool, stood my ground. I wanted to remain unapologetic, and so it was important that I do nothing wrong myself. I had a long term goal in mind, and I kept it in focus. I didn't let petty personal slights distract me from that goal. I didn't let egregious irrationality ruin my mood or trigger my sarcasm/ridicule habit. I don't think sarcasm or ridicule would have been wrong, per se, I just don't think they would have worked in this particular situation. These were not hopelessly intransigent theists I was confronting. These were people who, under normal circumstances, on just about any other topic, would have been far more reasonable and measured. I didn't want to burn my bridges. I just wanted to say my piece, and maybe reach one or two other spectators.

Having met my own expectations in that encounter, I've been experimenting more and more in recent debates I've had. And repeatedly, time and again, this strategy has been quite successful, in my opinion.

It doesn't take much. It doesn't require me to change my convictions, or to compromise my principles. In fact, it is very much in line with them.

It allows my voice to be heard. It keeps my message afloat, though some would try to drown it. It allows me to speak my mind, without fear of retribution. It allows me to do something bold, without doing something wrong. It allows me to stand up for others, and encourages others to stand up for me.

I think if we, as a community, as individuals, want to have our voices heard, this is the kind of thing we need to learn about and practice. I've got my preferred method. Maybe it will work for you, maybe not. Maybe you just prefer to do things differently. I have no problem with that. More power to you. I'll support you, if you return the favour. Just don't throw me under the bus for merely disagreeing with you. That's just totally not cool.
I have already said the accusation of lying, no matter how well supported, was not a good move but there you have it. Others do.
Again, agreed. But there's one additional dimension to consider: Practical effectiveness. Does it *work*? Better or worse? And again, this will depend on the person, and the context. My 'works best' will be different from Tuvok's 'works best' and your 'works best'. But let's not fool ourselves. Let's not ignore obvious risks. This isn't "Well I just *prefer* this way, so therefore it *works* for me." Sorry. No. Prayer doesn't work at all, doesn't matter who you are. Some things *just don't work* at all, for anyone, in any context.

And aside from 'just doesn't work at all', there are in-between degrees of effectiveness, like a probability scale, from 0 to 1, 0 being 'never works, ever' and 1 being 'always works, all the time'. In reality, things are rarely exactly 0 or exactly 1, it's almost always somewhere in between. But some techniques are going to be 0.0001 to 0.0005, and others will be 0.8 to 0.9, etc. Obviously, I would suggest to someone, I think you should reconsider your approach, seems more in the 0.0001 to 0.0005 range. Might want to consider this idea in the 0.8 to 0.9 range.

Nothing's perfect, it's all probabilities, but you can *stack your deck* with good cards, and ditch the shitty cards. Why wouldn't you? Obviously, that's a rhetorical question.
I agree it may be best to have a coherent narrative but that will never happen.
I don't go for that either. That's more along the lines of accommodationism and 'framing' theory, which I'm against. I'm talking pragmatism. Use what works. That's it.
In some ways it is a great strength that we often disagree rather than all sound like FtB clones. That does mean our aims may clash at times.
I agree. Diversity is definitely a strength in my books.
I really did not want yet another damn issue come up again at Nugent's as I knew they were waiting for one. Its like we are jinxed.
Well, I'd more put it down to, "Saw that one coming a mile away."

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#10237

Post by Gefan »

Jack wrote:oops I meant compliant.
No, I think you had it right the first time.

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#10238

Post by debaser71 »

Time and time again I've seen something pan out well when I originally thought it would go badly. IMO let people fight the battle they want to fight in the manner they so desire. There is no "better" way unless you look at something in hindsight. Only after the dust settles can measurements be taken about what impacted what. People told Hitchens he was too mean, too much of an asshole. Richard Dawkins was too blunt. etc. That a particular lawsuit or billboard was petty or offensive. Fuck that noise.

Had atheist done the "better" way of the accomodationists, we'd be exactly where we were 20 years ago. In-fucking-visible.

Btw, I used to post at IIDB. (internet infidels) I wonder if anyone else did too.

And I say this from the perspective of having acheived my goal of making atheism mainstream...thanks to people who didn't listen to what others were saying about "better" ways to accomplish things.

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#10239

Post by Phil_Giordana_FCD »

BarnOwl wrote:
ReneeHendricks wrote: We wish (on the foot issue). He has the sort of pain where, when he's without his boots and walks around bare-footed or in socks, every tiny bit of grit on the floor feels like stepping on glass and nails. I'm sure there's a term for it but I can't think of it. Chemo would have made this even worse for him. Not a good thought at all.

Sooo! We're all on board with and happy about having just a bit of radiation. After that, smooth sailing :D
From a neuroscientist (not a clinician) perspective, that would be called allodynia, i.e. perceiving an innocuous stimulus (touch, pressure, etc.) as a painful one. I don't know how often that particular term is used clinically, but I've heard the phenomenon described as part of several different clinical syndromes. One case is for neurofibromatosis type 1 patients, who often experience innocuous touch and pressure as painful, especially (but not always limited to) in areas where they have the benign cutaneous tumors. Another case is for people with trigeminal neuralgia, and a third for people who've had peripheral nerve injury, when the nerve endings are regenerating. These examples are all based on diseases or injuries that affect peripheral nerves, and there are probably examples of allodynia for diseases or injuries in the central nervous system.
You really have a knack for cheering people up, don't you? :lol:

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#10240

Post by Trophy »

I think this is the only time I'm mentioning Ophelia Benson, at least in a long time. I personally would like to leave her alone. She's getting old and senile so sometimes she says really really weird things. I don't think it will have a funny ending and I don't enjoy people making fun of seniors.

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#10241

Post by Lurkion »

rayshul wrote:
rocko2466 wrote:
John Brown wrote:Can anyone here point me to a good history of the concept of "rape culture?" I'm also looking for a scholarly critique of it as well.
Read feminism 101. I'm not your teacher. Asshole.

Oh wait. This isn't my atheism+ account.

... I second that call for a link to a good history. I'm interested in reading up on it - it seems to be trickling down into normal-people-speak and I'm getting concerned that the morons are taking advantage of the Steubenville case to push a nonsense sociopolitical theory.
Rape culture wank is all over my facebook right now. Driving me nuts. It's not a fucking thing.
MINE TOO!

It's driving me insane because I don't usually engage on Facebook and have been.

Seriously, people just say 'rape culture' and people go "OHNOES!"

Tell men and boys that rape isn't okay. That's literally the only fucking solution they have. It's like they want rapes to happen.

What about the myriad of other possible solutions (read solutions as things that reduce the frequency of rape)? NOPE. TELL BOYS NOT TO RAPE.

WE'RE ALREADY DOING THAT.

Generally, when people get up in arms about rape allegations, they aren't going "Fuck you. Rape's okay. Suck a dick, bitch.", they're saying "I don't believe that the crime you allege occurred. And seeing as it is a crime which is based on an interaction between two people, it's open for me to say I don't believe you." Most of the people who act out in those allegation cases are people who believe the (alleged) victim is lying - not that rape was okay.

The "rape culture" meme is in essence an attempt to reverse the PUBLIC'S perception of innocent until proven guilty.

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#10242

Post by Lurkion »

rayshul wrote:
rocko2466 wrote:
John Brown wrote:Can anyone here point me to a good history of the concept of "rape culture?" I'm also looking for a scholarly critique of it as well.
Read feminism 101. I'm not your teacher. Asshole.

Oh wait. This isn't my atheism+ account.

... I second that call for a link to a good history. I'm interested in reading up on it - it seems to be trickling down into normal-people-speak and I'm getting concerned that the morons are taking advantage of the Steubenville case to push a nonsense sociopolitical theory.
Rape culture wank is all over my facebook right now. Driving me nuts. It's not a fucking thing.
MINE TOO!

It's driving me insane because I don't usually engage on Facebook and have been.

Seriously, people just say 'rape culture' and people go "OHNOES!"

Tell men and boys that rape isn't okay. That's literally the only fucking solution they have. It's like they want rapes to happen.

What about the myriad of other possible solutions (read solutions as things that reduce the frequency of rape)? NOPE. TELL BOYS NOT TO RAPE.

WE'RE ALREADY DOING THAT.

Generally, when people get up in arms about rape allegations, they aren't going "Fuck you. Rape's okay. Suck a dick, bitch.", they're saying "I don't believe that the crime you allege occurred. And seeing as it is a crime which is based on an interaction between two people, it's open for me to say I don't believe you." Most of the people who act out in those allegation cases are people who believe the (alleged) victim is lying - not that rape was okay.

The "rape culture" meme is in essence an attempt to reverse the PUBLIC'S perception of innocent until proven guilty.

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#10243

Post by Lurkion »

rayshul wrote:
rocko2466 wrote:
John Brown wrote:Can anyone here point me to a good history of the concept of "rape culture?" I'm also looking for a scholarly critique of it as well.
Read feminism 101. I'm not your teacher. Asshole.

Oh wait. This isn't my atheism+ account.

... I second that call for a link to a good history. I'm interested in reading up on it - it seems to be trickling down into normal-people-speak and I'm getting concerned that the morons are taking advantage of the Steubenville case to push a nonsense sociopolitical theory.
Rape culture wank is all over my facebook right now. Driving me nuts. It's not a fucking thing.
MINE TOO!

It's driving me insane because I don't usually engage on Facebook and have been.

Seriously, people just say 'rape culture' and people go "OHNOES!"

Tell men and boys that rape isn't okay. That's literally the only fucking solution they have. It's like they want rapes to happen.

What about the myriad of other possible solutions (read solutions as things that reduce the frequency of rape)? NOPE. TELL BOYS NOT TO RAPE.

WE'RE ALREADY DOING THAT.

Generally, when people get up in arms about rape allegations, they aren't going "Fuck you. Rape's okay. Suck a dick, bitch.", they're saying "I don't believe that the crime you allege occurred. And seeing as it is a crime which is based on an interaction between two people, it's open for me to say I don't believe you." Most of the people who act out in those allegation cases are people who believe the (alleged) victim is lying - not that rape was okay.

The "rape culture" meme is in essence an attempt to reverse the PUBLIC'S perception of innocent until proven guilty.

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#10244

Post by Lurkion »

hahaha triple post. Do I get a prize?

(Sorry Lsuoma)

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#10245

Post by Wonderist »

Trophy wrote:I think this is the only time I'm mentioning Ophelia Benson, at least in a long time. I personally would like to leave her alone. She's getting old and senile so sometimes she says really really weird things. I don't think it will have a funny ending and I don't enjoy people making fun of seniors.
I guarantee you I'll make no such attacks, even in jest. I still respect her as a *person*, I just think she's very wrong in the same way I think dogmatic theists are very wrong. I want this all to end, but I don't wish harm on anyone. I'm committed to behaving in a way where my friends and family can look back and see that I only engaged in ethical activism, to the best of my ability.

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#10246

Post by rayshul »

rocko2466 wrote:MINE TOO!

It's driving me insane because I don't usually engage on Facebook and have been.

Seriously, people just say 'rape culture' and people go "OHNOES!"

Tell men and boys that rape isn't okay. That's literally the only fucking solution they have. It's like they want rapes to happen.

What about the myriad of other possible solutions (read solutions as things that reduce the frequency of rape)? NOPE. TELL BOYS NOT TO RAPE.

WE'RE ALREADY DOING THAT.

Generally, when people get up in arms about rape allegations, they aren't going "Fuck you. Rape's okay. Suck a dick, bitch.", they're saying "I don't believe that the crime you allege occurred. And seeing as it is a crime which is based on an interaction between two people, it's open for me to say I don't believe you." Most of the people who act out in those allegation cases are people who believe the (alleged) victim is lying - not that rape was okay.

The "rape culture" meme is in essence an attempt to reverse the PUBLIC'S perception of innocent until proven guilty.
Hah. I think you've been mislead about what rape culture is. According to my facebook, every motherfucking thing is rape culture. You could post bunnies and puppies cuddling and that would be fucking rape culture. I've noticed that they've scoured the intranet for tweets from people who disagree with the verdict (or shit, even those who are like... that girl should not have been drinking) and have done the NAME AND SHAME them thing on websites everywhere. It's so insanely fucked up.

rayshul
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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#10247

Post by rayshul »

Trophy wrote:I think this is the only time I'm mentioning Ophelia Benson, at least in a long time. I personally would like to leave her alone. She's getting old and senile so sometimes she says really really weird things. I don't think it will have a funny ending and I don't enjoy people making fun of seniors.
You're probably right there.

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#10248

Post by Wonderist »

debaser71 wrote:Time and time again I've seen something pan out well when I originally thought it would go badly. IMO let people fight the battle they want to fight in the manner they so desire. There is no "better" way unless you look at something in hindsight. Only after the dust settles can measurements be taken about what impacted what. People told Hitchens he was too mean, too much of an asshole. Richard Dawkins was too blunt. etc. That a particular lawsuit or billboard was petty or offensive. Fuck that noise.

Had atheist done the "better" way of the accomodationists, we'd be exactly where we were 20 years ago. In-fucking-visible.

Btw, I used to post at IIDB. (internet infidels) I wonder if anyone else did too.

And I say this from the perspective of having acheived my goal of making atheism mainstream...thanks to people who didn't listen to what others were saying about "better" ways to accomplish things.
Hi debaser71, I must say that I basically agree with all of your sentiments. I only differ on one aspect, which, I think if you give it a chance, you will probably come to see that you and I are already in agreement on anyway. So, I'm expecting that we don't actually disagree on the basics. We shall see. I'm going to reply to things out of order with agreements first.

"IMO let people fight the battle they want to fight in the manner they so desire."
100% agree.

"Only after the dust settles can measurements be taken about what impacted what. "
Clearly true. Basic empiricism. No perfect predictions before the fact. Agreed. 100%.

"People told Hitchens he was too mean, too much of an asshole. Richard Dawkins was too blunt. etc. That a particular lawsuit or billboard was petty or offensive. Fuck that noise. "
They sure did. Fuck that noise indeed. Agreed.

"Had atheist done the "better" way of the accomodationists, we'd be exactly where we were 20 years ago. In-fucking-visible. "
Full agreement (with slight caveat, explained below, regarding the word 'better'). I have no respect for accommodationists who try to shut up gnus. I'm the host of one of the gnu atheism pages on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/gnuatheism

Funny enough, the other page, by the same name, was started by Ophelia Benson and some associate(s) of hers. There's an interesting story behind that, but I'll skip it for now.

"Btw, I used to post at IIDB. (internet infidels) I wonder if anyone else did too. "
Awesome. I was not, but I know several who were. I hung out at the Infidel Guy Show forums starting around 2004. IIDB had already been around quite a while before that, I seem to recall, so I felt kinda shy jumping into a big established forum like that. IG was much more my style at the time.
There is no "better" way unless you look at something in hindsight.

And I say this from the perspective of having acheived my goal of making atheism mainstream...thanks to people who didn't listen to what others were saying about "better" ways to accomplish things.
Here is where we 'differ', but I think we may find that the difference is only in the interpretation of the admittedly ambiguous word "better".

When you described accommodationism as being 'better', but that if we'd followed it, we'd be 20 years behind, to me, in my interpretation, that completely disqualifies accommodationism from being *actually* better in reality. By definition (in my interpretation of the word 'better'), that would be the antonym of 'better', namely 'worse'. Accommodationism is not *actually* a better approach. It's *actually*a worse approach. Doesn't matter if accommodationists merely *think* it's better. I don't use 'better' that way.

And this is the key, when you say that "There is no "better" way unless you look at something in hindsight." I think you'll find that, (ironically) in hindsight, this is a false statement. We *can* tell which ideas will probably work better (*actually* better, not just *asserted* as 'better'). Again, I 100% agree with empiricism. I'm not making any spooky woo woo claims here. The key concept behind this is the idea of being able to make *accurate* predictions. (It's the basis of science, by the way.)

Since I've discussed this topic dozens and dozens of times in the past, I wrote this article to encapsulate this idea that 'better' means 'more true', and 'more true' means 'more accurate predictions'. There's even a little self-proof that humans make accurate predictions all the time, which I hope you'll enjoy: http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/18962

I'm *predicting*, right here and now, that after reading that article, you'll *most probably* find that you and I agree on the possibility of prediction more than you first thought we did. (Please note, this is not a *perfect* prediction. I, like you, don't believe perfect predictions are possible. This is a probabilistic prediction.)

So, if what I've written in earlier posts on this thread still sounds 'wrong' when you see the word 'better', just mentally replace 'better' with 'able to make more accurate predictions of the outcomes'. It's just that 'better' is easier to type.

rayshul
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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#10249

Post by rayshul »

Personally I'm predicting that if this shit goes on much longer I'm going to have to suck it up and start courting hardline conservative friends.

Phil_Giordana_FCD
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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#10250

Post by Phil_Giordana_FCD »

Just wanted to say that my copies of "Why Evolution Is True", "A Universe From Nothing" and "The Magic Of Reality" have arrived.

I haz a happy!

Trophy
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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#10251

Post by Trophy »

Phil_Giordana_FCD wrote:Just wanted to say that my copies of "Why Evolution Is True", "A Universe From Nothing" and "The Magic Of Reality" have arrived.

I haz a happy!
I see you are catching up with your readings of "Books by Privileged White-Men".

Phil_Giordana_FCD
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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#10252

Post by Phil_Giordana_FCD »

Trophy wrote:
Phil_Giordana_FCD wrote:Just wanted to say that my copies of "Why Evolution Is True", "A Universe From Nothing" and "The Magic Of Reality" have arrived.

I haz a happy!
I see you are catching up with your readings of "Books by Privileged White-Men".
Ostensibly so. I admit to being a bit ashamed for not ordering Jerry's and Lawrence's books earlier, but finances have been, to say the least, rather random. Thankfuly I made a translation job and got paid with an Amazon voucher. Now I have books, new shoes, and beef jerky.

Anyway, these books are now standing comfortably next to Hitchens "God is not Great", "The Missionary Position" and "Hitch 22". Also, Dawkins' "The God delusion" and "The Greatest Show on Earth". I'm still lacking a bit in these bibliographies, but intend to catch up when I have the financial means to do so.

These books are not for show, either, I regularily read them with fascination. If there's one thing I can take out of being involved in the A/S community, it is those books.

/sentimental rant

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#10253

Post by mikelf »

BarnOwl wrote: Plantar fasciitis, maybe? I've had it for years, and it's particularly bad when I've been sitting or lying down for a long period of time, like when driving long distance, and in the morning when I first get out of bed. Two simple things that help: before I get up from sitting or sleeping, I stretch my toes toward my head (dorsiflex my feet) several times, and once or twice a day I roll the soles of my feet over a water-filled soda bottle that I keep in the freezer. The pain from plantar fasciitis can feel very sharp, and when it's bad my feet feel "crunchy."
I seem to recall you are a runner. I have an old college friend who does ultras and he swears that the thing that cured his plantar fasciitis was running in bare feet. I suppose YMMV.

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#10254

Post by TheMan »

Phil_Giordana_FCD wrote:Just wanted to say that my copies of "Why Evolution Is True", "A Universe From Nothing" and "The Magic Of Reality" have arrived.

I haz a happy!
Can you send them over when you are done with them? Don't leave any dog ears on the pages.... ta. (you pay shipping costs)

LMU
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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#10255

Post by LMU »

rayshul wrote:
Jack wrote:I'm going round in circles at Nugent's. I don't think I have said anything new in two weeks. I wish people would read what has already been posted before they wade in.
I'm enjoying reading your comments although I have to say I can see it's quite tiring.
I enjoyed reading those threads too. Don't get burnt out on it, taking a break is fine.

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#10256

Post by Phil_Giordana_FCD »

TheMan wrote:
Phil_Giordana_FCD wrote:Just wanted to say that my copies of "Why Evolution Is True", "A Universe From Nothing" and "The Magic Of Reality" have arrived.

I haz a happy!
Can you send them over when you are done with them? Don't leave any dog ears on the pages.... ta. (you pay shipping costs)
I never dog ear my books! I have a lovely holographic Mars/Phobos/Deimos postcard as a bookmark.

Not to mention, there's no way in hell I'll ever part from the books...

EdwardGemmer
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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#10257

Post by EdwardGemmer »

http://freethoughtblogs.com/crommunist/ ... /#comments

Interesting thread. Crommunist talks a bit about sex he didn't have with dunk women, and then some guy comes on saying he thinks he might have raped someone, so they direct him to a domestic violence hotline. Instead of, you know, calling the police? I mean, rape is crystal clear right? It's very easy to read a limited set of facts and decide if it's rape or not, right?

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#10258

Post by TheMan »

Phil_Giordana_FCD wrote:
TheMan wrote:
Phil_Giordana_FCD wrote:Just wanted to say that my copies of "Why Evolution Is True", "A Universe From Nothing" and "The Magic Of Reality" have arrived.

I haz a happy!
Can you send them over when you are done with them? Don't leave any dog ears on the pages.... ta. (you pay shipping costs)
I never dog ear my books! I have a lovely holographic Mars/Phobos/Deimos postcard as a bookmark.

Not to mention, there's no way in hell I'll ever part from the books...
So there is a window of opportunity since you didn't object to paying shipping costs. I'll pay shipping costs and return them. Does that sweeten the deal?

I'll spray the books with doggy repellent to ensure no accidents or damage. (My dog likes paper) :)

Apples
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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#10259

Post by Apples »

EdwardGemmer wrote:http://freethoughtblogs.com/crommunist/ ... /#comments

Interesting thread. Crommunist talks a bit about sex he didn't have with dunk women, and then some guy comes on saying he thinks he might have raped someone, so they direct him to a domestic violence hotline. Instead of, you know, calling the police? I mean, rape is crystal clear right? It's very easy to read a limited set of facts and decide if it's rape or not, right?
In fairness, AFAICT no one there has tried to call it rape.

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#10260

Post by EdwardGemmer »

Apples wrote:
EdwardGemmer wrote:http://freethoughtblogs.com/crommunist/ ... /#comments

Interesting thread. Crommunist talks a bit about sex he didn't have with dunk women, and then some guy comes on saying he thinks he might have raped someone, so they direct him to a domestic violence hotline. Instead of, you know, calling the police? I mean, rape is crystal clear right? It's very easy to read a limited set of facts and decide if it's rape or not, right?
In fairness, AFAICT no one there has tried to call it rape.
But that's kind of the point, isn't it? We get all these campaigns about "rape is rape," "don't rape," "tell me not to rape," etc., with very, very little work done to actually figure out what we mean when we say that. When confronted with a factual scenario from an actual person, mostly silence. That's because these situations can be hard to figure out. Saying "don't rape" is nice and all, but pretty much the laziest possible answer to a complex and difficult question. But no one over there has the guts to say that, so they punt. That's an example of efforts to drive out diversity and free speech - when confronted with actual, difficult problems, you need a variety of points of view.

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