Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

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HoneyWagon
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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#10441

Post by HoneyWagon »

So, it looks like the pit won't last (according to EBW) and was only started because people kept using the word "Cunt" a lot and got banned off of the good blogging sites.

http://i.imgur.com/2YUtNEY.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/yuSLjGd.jpg

16bitheretic
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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#10442

Post by 16bitheretic »

http://i.imgur.com/1cPCKZ6.jpg

http://i1322.photobucket.com/albums/u58 ... dba2de.jpg

To be masculine is to be anti-woman? And what's with all the gender role assumptions? There are feminine men and masculine women, are they anti their own genders? Fucking hell, this is so stupid!

The rest of this post is just going from observation (men's and women's apparel styles are different) and reaching wild assumptions (patriarchy and rape culture tell men that wearing heels is akin to tainting yourself with girl cooties!). Sure, there are arbitrary gender assumptions in society, but these sorts of leaps into pseudo-psychology are ridiculous and have no merit.

Pitchguest
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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#10443

Post by Pitchguest »

Stephanie Zvan writes another blog post whining how she can't call people liars on Nugent's anymore, harassing Justin Vacula yet again, and the usual suspects and call the "Slymepit" (you know, the collective) the usual (misogynists, sexists, rape apologists, evil, etc, etc) and one poster called Susan writes this doss:
Stephanie,

Thanks for your response. Michael said:

“We had, and I believe we still have, the potential to harness that intellectual and political energy into an effective international movement that is inclusive and caring and supportive while promoting robust debate and free speech.

We had, and I believe we still have, the potential to combine the best contributions of many good people on all perceived ‘sides’ of the rifts, who are currently unable or unwilling to work together, because they have been unfairly misrepresented and hurt by people who in turn have been unfairly misrepresented and hurt by others.”\

I still don’t see where there is any equivalence between the “hurt” the ‘pitters have suffered and what you and others on “our side” have suffered. So we’re starting a false equivalence, from my point of view as a long time observe since “Guys, don’t do that”, though I have not actually been the target of such abuse myself.

I would not be willing, ever, to work with anyone who used the word “cunt” or “bitch” or “Femistasi.” I do not consider Kirby or Paden or Thunderfoot or Vacula or any of that ilk worthy of any kind of debate, including anyone who has ever posted or supported AVSM. Whether you choose to, of course, is entirely up to you and your comfort level.
Yeah. She wouldn't be able to work with anyone who uses the word "cunt" or "Femistasi" ever, but people who call others misogynists, rape supporters and rape apologists without evidence, strawmanning them into kingdom come, those people are ideal bedfellows. Nevermind that it's been ESTABLISHED that it's NOT JUST about the "bad words", as Myers, Benson, Zvan, Clarke, Canuck, et al. confirmed when they objected to the "civility pledge" by Dan Fincke.

She continues with the creationist level obfuscation if you want to read the whole thing here.

It sort of exemplifies the level of honesty we're dealing with here. I don't think Michael Nugent was on the level at all when he started out. He was being exceptionally unfair, to Justin Vacula, to members of the Slymepit, and for what? To seemingly satisfy the whims of some of his friends? Unacceptable for a "leader" of a community. And then when it turned out his own "house" was not in order, in fact much worse than here, where the "bad words" were much more volatile, then he showed himself be a hypocrite.

However, he saved face when he didn't delete or moderate posts coming from the Slymepit to defend themselves, and what he has been doing since then, after he let off his gripe with Vacula and the 'Pit and started postulating solutions to repair the rifts of the community as a whole, has been (in my opinion) relatively sane. They have been on the level. But when the discussion veered away from the Slymepit and FtB, somehow the reaction of both "sides" was not what you would be led to believe. Contrary to what you would have been led to believe, the members of the Slymepit have been trying to discuss things in good "faith" - but members of FtB (not going to say all of them) have been focusing on steering it back to the 'Pit, and what's wrong with the 'Pit, and what have you - and for some reason opening up a dialogue is *wrong.*

One Bernard Bumner even says this,
Nugent is still treating dialogue as though it is a duty of both sides, even those people who have suffered the worst of the abuse.
Bolding mine. Really? Still treating dialogue as though it is a duty of both sides? The tit. Nugent should be ashamed. He should've asked some FtBloggers for advice. Then this whole problem would've been avoided.

welch
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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#10444

Post by welch »

Wonderist wrote:This one's actually a positive sign. I'll skip some less relevant parts and just post the one paragraph where Dan L. shows a crack of light peeking out from his largely closed-mind on the issue:
217 Dan L. March 19, 2013 at 9:14 pm
I also don’t get how you guys are simultaneously arguing that FtB is both marginalized by the atheist movement because of their politics and somehow gatekeeping the politics of the atheist movement. I just can’t fit both concepts in my head at the same time. Could you help me understand that?
Here's how I 'hear' Dan's objection: If you (pit) keep saying, "Fine then, go off and do your own thing," and the FTBers do that, by banning people they disagree with, and you (pit) are *serious* that you're fine with going your separate ways, then how can you *also* accuse them of 'gatekeeping'. It seems you want to have your cake and eat it too.

My instinct is to answer by bringing up the smearing and rumour campaigning (I guess that's my bugbear). That's how I see them gate-keeping from afar, after they've banned you. The character assassinations (shit, I just noticed the connection to Brony's 'rhetorical assassins').

Are there other ways that I don't see as clearly, that they (FTB, specifically) isolate themselves, and gatekeep at the same time.
Well, any "gate-keeping" function they have is either highly localized, or accidental. The influence they have with CFI being an example of the latter, and given what I've seen from other chapters, I don't think Hensley has any real power outside of the DC chapter. Chapters in the bible belt have REAL issues to deal with, not just what's crawled up her ass NOW.

I think they very much want people to think they matter a lot, but really, even if we limit the size of the pond to the atheist/skeptic movement, they make a LOT of noise, but they don't really have that much influence. No one's kicking Dawkins out, no matter what they say, or Coyne, or Shermer or the rest.

heck, it can be argued that their influence within FTB is diminishing. out of 36 blogs, there are, if we are somewhat generous, ten blogs that are part of the FC(n). Actually, only 34 blogs, two are done, and just there for...historical value I guess. There's another 3-4 that are on the fringes of the FC(n) and the rest seem to mostly ignore it.

So even in their home court, they aren't a majority. They're loud as hell, but if you can't even own your home field, what do you actually own?

Now, this kind of thing explains why they've gotten SO loud of late, but keep in mind, they aren't even good at it. None of them seems to have even a basic understanding of how to extend their influence beyond their existing audience, and it's pretty clear that given brayton and PeeZus' business sense, that site lasting another year is at best 50-50. They're losing people on a steady level and no one there is really cranking out the traffic the way PeeZus used to on SciBlogs. They also just don't know how to create income for that site.

So while they really want people to think of them as being able to be gatekeepers, the data doesn't seem to support it.

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Re: Radfem Esteleth

#10445

Post by JackSkeptic »

Jan Steen wrote:
Jack wrote:
Jan Steen wrote:*snip*
Or more succinctly, a complete pile of crap. I can't believe anyone with any critical thinking skills would fall for it.
And yet, many people clearly don't recognise it as crap. That's why I think it is not enough to call it a pile of crap. That's preaching for the choir, which is not what I am doing. That would be a waste of my time. The crap needs to be dissected, analysed, and exposed. It's not always nice work, but sometimes you have to get your hands dirty.
Is there any way you can go there and point out the gross logical fallacies?

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#10446

Post by Pitchguest »

16bitheretic wrote:http://i.imgur.com/1cPCKZ6.jpg

http://i1322.photobucket.com/albums/u58 ... dba2de.jpg

To be masculine is to be anti-woman? And what's with all the gender role assumptions? There are feminine men and masculine women, are they anti their own genders? Fucking hell, this is so stupid!

The rest of this post is just going from observation (men's and women's apparel styles are different) and reaching wild assumptions (patriarchy and rape culture tell men that wearing heels is akin to tainting yourself with girl cooties!). Sure, there are arbitrary gender assumptions in society, but these sorts of leaps into pseudo-psychology are ridiculous and have no merit.
But I thought patriarchy hurt men too?

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#10447

Post by JackSkeptic »

Wonderist wrote:This one's actually a positive sign. I'll skip some less relevant parts and just post the one paragraph where Dan L. shows a crack of light peeking out from his largely closed-mind on the issue:
217 Dan L. March 19, 2013 at 9:14 pm
I also don’t get how you guys are simultaneously arguing that FtB is both marginalized by the atheist movement because of their politics and somehow gatekeeping the politics of the atheist movement. I just can’t fit both concepts in my head at the same time. Could you help me understand that?
Here's how I 'hear' Dan's objection: If you (pit) keep saying, "Fine then, go off and do your own thing," and the FTBers do that, by banning people they disagree with, and you (pit) are *serious* that you're fine with going your separate ways, then how can you *also* accuse them of 'gatekeeping'. It seems you want to have your cake and eat it too.

My instinct is to answer by bringing up the smearing and rumour campaigning (I guess that's my bugbear). That's how I see them gate-keeping from afar, after they've banned you. The character assassinations (shit, I just noticed the connection to Brony's 'rhetorical assassins').

Are there other ways that I don't see as clearly, that they (FTB, specifically) isolate themselves, and gatekeep at the same time.
I answered that exact point last night. Sorry I don't have the link but I know others replied did too. He got stuck on the word 'imposition' and conflating valid criticism to attacks. That went on a bit.

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#10448

Post by JackSkeptic »

I'm chewing up my sentences today sorry.

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#10449

Post by Wonderist »

223 AndrewV69 March 19, 2013 at 9:21 pm

@Dan L. #205

Thanks for the long comment, I haven’t had the chance to read it just yet but I’m copying into text file so I won’t forget to.

I look forward to your response seeing as the SPs did not discuss it much.

Would you two consider doing it at the Slymepit? It would not be off-topic there vs this comment thread.
Hey Andrew, I, personally, have nothing against your invitation to them. If you will, allow me to 'interpret' how I think it would sound to Dan L. and any other of the SJW (contra Sam Harris) types.

It looks slimy and manipulative, like inviting a lamb to the slaughter. In this case, invite a lone SJW to a den of bullies to be abused, mocked, laughed at, beaten, perhaps even raped, shat on, taken photos of and published on the NYT, kicked to the curb, and as one final measure, pissed on, while the white male cops drive by giving the pitters a conspiratorial grin and a thumb's up.

So, it's pretty fucking offensive and hard to take at all seriously.

Of course, he's wrong, but he doesn't know that. Most of the SJWs reading that won't know they're wrong either.

So, don't take this the wrong way, but I think we should (by our own personal choices, and I'm no authority, and don't pretend to be, it's just a suggestion) avoid inviting obvious SJW types to the pit, for the simple reason that it will make them think you've got ulterior motives (irrational, yes, but I think that's what'll happen, practically speaking). Instead, we should invite them to a neutral space. And right now, my hunch is that the *only* sorta-kinda-neutral space they're willing to even *consider* is Nugent's blog.

So, since they're already on Nugent's blog, I, personally, would just turn my thought of writing an invite into a thought of writing a "was nice talking with you, hope you stick around on Nugent's blog comments, I'm getting something out of this conversation, thanks." If you don't feel that, don't write that, but if you want to try writing something *like* that then just think of something (even the tiniest thing) that you sincerely got out of the conversation and say that. The idea is not to swoon them into "Oh! My! I never thought pitters were even human! I was sooo wrong!" No, that's silly. The idea is *simply* to give them *some* sort of positive sign that they are not just wasting their fucking time talking to assholes. That there's *some* glimmer of hope in this discussion. So that they will *more likely* stick around and keep talking.

Basically, although Renee commented that the comments seemed hopeless, I actually think the comments around this section were making real progress. It's damn fucking slow progress. That's just how this works. It takes time and perseverance and repetition. (And it's good to take breaks and come back to it later, so you don't burn out.)

Essentially, metaphorically, what I think I'm seeing right now in that thread (this is the On the primacy ... thread, BTW), is like this:

Imagine two tribes that live on two tall (very tall) mountains. One tribe on one mountain, the other tribe on the other mountain. They live so high up on the mountains, that the valley between them is perpetually enshrouded by clouds/mist/fog whatever. But on the other hand, the mountains, by some strange geography, are very close to one another. So close, that you can shoot an arrow across from one mountain to another.

And since that's the only interaction the two tribes are able to have, and since sometimes arrows unintentionally fly astray, fly across the narrow valley and kill some innocent villager from the other tribe, for the last 1000 years, the tribes have been at constant war, slinging arrow after arrow at each other.

Then, one day, some kid is playing around with a big ball of string, ties one end of the string to an arrow and shoots it across, to try to snag a villager on the other side (and tug him off the mountainside to fall to his death, with the string). But he misses, and the arrow gets stuck in a tree.

A kid from the other tribe spots the arrow, decides to play a trick on the other kid, draws a rude picture of a woman, writes "yor mama" on it, and sends it across the valley on the string (like a clothesline; doesn't make sense, who cares, it's a metaphor).

The first kid gets the rude picture, and sends one back. Yadda yadda yadda, eventually they're sending messages now, and the question arises, "Why do you keep shooting at us?"

That's where we're at now. We just have to *keep the conversation going*. Even if we only have a flimsy string and some little slips of paper. It's better than arrows.

So. IMO, we should seriously try to find (or perhaps put together) a better neutral venue than *only* Nugent's blog. Basically, we should find an old reel of telegraph wire and send it across on the string, so we can start having more in-depth conversations, not restricted to occasional blog posts on Nugent's personal blog (not that there's anything wrong with that! Just a little inconvenient).

Perhaps a Facebook group? (Would probably suck, IMO, not enough flexibility to host topical discussions, IMO). Perhaps Nugent could set up a sub-forum on AI? Moderated by non-partisans, perhaps Nugent, perhaps his colleague Walsh. Might work.

Perhaps some other venue?

Seems clear that we need a 'broader band' of communication, and they are not ready yet to do the face-to-face thing, although I think having this neutral venue might eventually lead to that.

For doubters, I'm in no way advocating compromise or accommodation, just discussion, only that. Just communication. Please don't mistake me.

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#10450

Post by JackSkeptic »

Jack wrote:
Wonderist wrote:This one's actually a positive sign. I'll skip some less relevant parts and just post the one paragraph where Dan L. shows a crack of light peeking out from his largely closed-mind on the issue:
217 Dan L. March 19, 2013 at 9:14 pm
I also don’t get how you guys are simultaneously arguing that FtB is both marginalized by the atheist movement because of their politics and somehow gatekeeping the politics of the atheist movement. I just can’t fit both concepts in my head at the same time. Could you help me understand that?
Here's how I 'hear' Dan's objection: If you (pit) keep saying, "Fine then, go off and do your own thing," and the FTBers do that, by banning people they disagree with, and you (pit) are *serious* that you're fine with going your separate ways, then how can you *also* accuse them of 'gatekeeping'. It seems you want to have your cake and eat it too.

My instinct is to answer by bringing up the smearing and rumour campaigning (I guess that's my bugbear). That's how I see them gate-keeping from afar, after they've banned you. The character assassinations (shit, I just noticed the connection to Brony's 'rhetorical assassins').

Are there other ways that I don't see as clearly, that they (FTB, specifically) isolate themselves, and gatekeep at the same time.
I answered that exact point last night. Sorry I don't have the link but I know others replied did too. He got stuck on the word 'imposition' and conflating valid criticism to attacks. That went on a bit.
Just to add, consider his question a trick one as it is a false equivalence. It ignores the fact they shoot out of their tower while allowing no one a right of recourse. They are also trying to control conferences (TAM failed but they tried) and a ton of other stuff stated at that post.

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#10451

Post by KiwiInOz »

Al Stefanelli wrote:
welch wrote:
Al Stefanelli wrote:Blah blah blah...
It is what it is, Welch. Genetics. Science is always awesome, but it's not always pretty. I'm dealing with it fairly well, and I've got some totally awesome people supporting me at home, including my wife (I suppose it's misogynist to say 'my wife' Lol) and the rest of my family.

I hate to whine about it, as in spite of all of it, there are a shit-ton of people who have it way worse than I do, and with a horrible prognosis for their future. So far, everything I've got is at least manageable with medication and the occasional removal of various parts of my anatomy.

I'd rather just hang here and live vicariously through the wit and wisdom of those who have the time and energy to engage.
Best wishes Al.

16bitheretic
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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#10452

Post by 16bitheretic »

Pitchguest wrote: But I thought patriarchy hurt men too?

Don't what about teh menz me mister! :naughty:

But seriously, I have yet to see in any situation where one group has power over another that the group with power is really hurt by it. If there is a patriarchy as defined by radfems, then I submit it's not all of the male gender who holds that power, it;s just a certain elite class, and that class would hardly be seen suffering from their power in any sense, be it social or monetary.

Of course, the real definition of "patriarchy hurts men too" is just radfem speak for "Shut the fuck up I have no interest in addressing your arguments which expose my lack of perspective due to my single gendered focus on every issue"

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#10453

Post by Wonderist »

229 AppleStairs March 19, 2013 at 9:33 pm

HJ Hornbeck@213 “So, quick show of hands: how did I do? How well have I summarized what most people in or friends with the Slyme Pit think about FtB and SkepChick?”

Not too bad, and good on you for making the effort! ;-) I’ll try to say more later and see if I can come up with a worthy flip-side.
Nice comment! Is that Apples? Or someone else? I'm glad someone took the time to reply to Hornbeck's 213 with a positive message. It was indeed a not too bad description. That's like sending across such a funny joke, even the members of other tribe can see the humour in it and laugh at it. It shows that there's a sense of understanding, even in opposition.

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Re: Radfem Esteleth

#10454

Post by Jan Steen »

Jack wrote:
Jan Steen wrote:
Jack wrote:
Jan Steen wrote:*snip*
Or more succinctly, a complete pile of crap. I can't believe anyone with any critical thinking skills would fall for it.
And yet, many people clearly don't recognise it as crap. That's why I think it is not enough to call it a pile of crap. That's preaching for the choir, which is not what I am doing. That would be a waste of my time. The crap needs to be dissected, analysed, and exposed. It's not always nice work, but sometimes you have to get your hands dirty.
Is there any way you can go there and point out the gross logical fallacies?
I suppose I could, as my old login name there probably still works, but I don't see the point. I can predict with almost prophetic accuracy what the response would be (denial, hypocrisy, special pleading, lies, insinuations, and endless logical fallacies, culminating in the inevitable accusations of misogyny and rape-enabling). I could write a plausible exchange between myself and the likes of Nerd of Redhead (well, that one is easy :D ), Caine, Sally Strange, Esteleth, John Morales and other Pharyngulanhas, that would differ in details but not in essence from what would actually ensue. It would cost me too much time to respond to the inevitable dog piling.

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#10455

Post by AbsurdWalls »

katamari Damassi wrote:Had an interesting discussion on my facebook page. Recently folk singer Michelle Shocked shocked her audience in San Francisco by declaring herself against marriage equality and saying "God hates fags."...
For the sake of accuracy, she said:
You can go on Twitter and say Michelle Shocked said "God hates fags".
As in, predicting how people would respond to her rant - the rest of which was still homophobic crappy stuff to say. I just think it's important to keep the context too.

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#10456

Post by Apples »

Finally catching up with the "forking and dongle" story from the Python Con. Interesting story. This is the blog of the offended "joke-overhearer" who sounded the alarm on the "brogrammers" sitting behind her who were, through their actions, apparently conspiring to suffocate all little-girl future-programmers in their playpens:

http://butyoureagirl.com/14015/forking- ... nferences/

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#10457

Post by Wonderist »

230 tina March 19, 2013 at 9:34 pm

Dan @ 210 211

Thanks, that was interesting. I’m still researching these issues to try to get some clarity. My impression is that a significant number of radical and gender feminists do think in those terms, though many others do not.

No, I don’t think capital and patriarchy are mutually exclusive at all, just parts of the jigsaw.

Re the economic position, I found this paper interesting:
(http://cwanderson.org/wp-content/upload ... eology.pdf)

Tell me. Are you still as leery about ‘this crowd’ as your comment at 140 would seem to suggest?
231 tina March 19, 2013 at 9:37 pm

Dan: Also, can you recommend some texts that describe patriarchy theory well? Thanks.
:whistle: Whewww! Nice comments! Excellent anti-trolling comeback to his dismissive comment. Throws him off guard, perhaps (depends on person) maybe makes him feel a bit guilty for being dismissive, like "Oops, I thought she was a jerk and would come back with an attack. Luckily, looks like she didn't even notice my dismissiveness. Maybe I can make it up by actually finding the title of that text I read a while back."

Doesn't always work so well, but it's usually worth a try. Sometimes, you have to do this over and over again, until they just can't muster the snark to troll anymore and they start to actually post semi-reasonable comments. Then you can give them a 'boost' for writing a particularly reasonable comment, and if you're lucky, and the person isn't **totally** jaded, they may start to actually engage in genuine reason. Usually, this takes a long time (depending on the level of mistrust and many other factors; each person is different, basically). When you see it pay off, though, it's pretty cool.

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#10458

Post by AbsurdWalls »

Apples wrote:Finally catching up with the "forking and dongle" story from the Python Con. Interesting story. This is the blog of the offended "joke-overhearer" who sounded the alarm on the "brogrammers" sitting behind her who were, through their actions, apparently conspiring to suffocate all little-girl future-programmers in their playpens:

http://butyoureagirl.com/14015/forking- ... nferences/
This might be worse than anything I've seen in atheism/skepticism.

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#10459

Post by JackSkeptic »

Wondesrist

I am almost certain they have no interest whatsoever in any discussion, neutral or otherwise. A few outliers have popped in to Nugent's but a tiny amount of the whole. They know their arguments to do not stand up to critical analysis. They have no interest in examining them.

They know what the Slympit is about they read here all the time. I'm posting there for some sitting on the fence and as a record of how evasive they are. It also serves as a good way to show how deluded SJW's are.

Finally it may provide useful information to other organisations who will know what they are getting before booking them for events or wanting them to contribute. TAM learned the hard way but others will not have to.

So while I'd be the first to like to see progress we have to be realistic here. My only unknown is what, if any, PM's Michael has had, perhaps from other groups.

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#10460

Post by Lurkion »

debaser71 wrote:With sound? It looks fake to me...although that type of shit does happen. Many drunk college girls do feel entitled to sex. They think they are super hot and they think all guys are horny beats. I've been groped, fondled, and literally had my underwear torn off at clubs.

"Hey guys, we are just trying to get you laid!"

No thanks, Greta.
Never happened to me.

In Australia, we tend to just get glared at. Usually when we're trying to get past them to the bathrooms.

(I don't think I'm terrible looking; it's my personality that's repellent :D )

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#10461

Post by Wonderist »

233 Dan L. March 19, 2013 at 9:49 pm

tina@230,231:

Thanks for the PDF. I have no links to share on patriarchy theory at the moment. Honestly I haven’t engaged with the women’s studied stuff directly, I’ve mostly come to my own understanding mostly by reading history and trying to understand how culture is constructed in the first place. But I have some friends I can reach out to who would probably have some good recommendations so I’ll try to do that — would you like the response on this thread or is there a better place?

As far as “this crowd” goes, you’re fine and AppleStairs and Metalogic have been perfectly reasonable. I’m sure there’s other individual human beings who hang out at the slymepit and hate on FtB who I would otherwise get along with fine.
...
Wow! tina, you made my day! :dance:
:clap: :popcorn:

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#10462

Post by Submariner »

What's Phil on about at Nugent's? He keeps mentioning Louis, but I don't see a Louis in the thread. Is he talking about DanL???

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#10463

Post by Lurkion »

ERV wrote:I still think youre all getting caught in the 'trap' (TRAP!!!!) that this has ANYTHING TO DO WITH FEMINISM.

It has nothing to do with any form of feminism.

It has everything to do with egos and using every weapon at ones disposal to attack those who have 'hurt' people with big ones.
Nahhhhh.

I reckon it does.

Maybe not for the big bosses, but for the plebs, it certainly is. And if people like Nugent construct a positive dialogue, then we can end up in a place where the crap they spout is recognised for what it is and the big bosses fall away and the plebs start thinking critically about the ideas they parrot.

(and sunshine and lollipops)

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#10464

Post by Apples »

Wonderist wrote:
229 AppleStairs March 19, 2013 at 9:33 pm

HJ Hornbeck@213 “So, quick show of hands: how did I do? How well have I summarized what most people in or friends with the Slyme Pit think about FtB and SkepChick?”

Not too bad, and good on you for making the effort! ;-) I’ll try to say more later and see if I can come up with a worthy flip-side.
Nice comment! Is that Apples? Or someone else? I'm glad someone took the time to reply to Hornbeck's 213 with a positive message. It was indeed a not too bad description. That's like sending across such a funny joke, even the members of other tribe can see the humour in it and laugh at it. It shows that there's a sense of understanding, even in opposition.
Yep - c'est moi. Hornbeck and DanL are pretty tolerable on the Nugent threads as far as SJWs go. Of course, I believe Hornbeck may have been over at OB's last night fantasizing about suing the pit into oblivion.

In case anyone was wondering - despite my sexy chill-girl name and my obvious feminism, I'm actually a white hetero cis male late-30s merkin. Apples is just an avocational notion - the importance of comparing apples to apples. Also an A+ pun. Speaking of which, haven't seen Apelust around for awhile.

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Re: Radfem Esteleth

#10465

Post by Lurkion »

Jan Steen wrote:Radfems have a completely stereotypical and largely theoretical image of men. When they write about men they sound like celibate priests sermonizing about women. Their men are loathsome, one-dimensional creatures who fear only one thing: to be mistaken for a woman, and who lust after one thing only: total domination of women. It is possible that such men actually exist, but it is probable that they were already a small minority among cave men and that their numbers have dwindled ever since. I, for one, don’t recognise myself, or almost any man I have ever known, at all in the picture that Pharyngulag inmate Esteleth paints here:

http://i.imgur.com/1cPCKZ6.jpg

http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/ ... ent-583453
If to be “a man” is to not be “a woman,” then to be “a man” one must be ANTI-WOMAN.

Inherently.
This is a stupendous logic fail. For even if the, actually faulty, premise (to be “a man” is to not be “a woman”) is assumed, it does not follow at all, let alone “inherently”, that to be “a man” one must be anti-woman. To be “an adult” is to not be “a child”. Does it follow that to be “an adult” one must be anti-child? Of course not. This whole line of “reasoning” is pseudo-intellectual bullshit of the worst kind. It is not even childish nonsense, it is worse than that. It is toxic drivel, aimed to drive a wedge between men and women. It’s pathological and hateful. It’s bigotry. It’s on the moral plane of anti-semitism and KKK-level racism. It’s pure and carefully thought out misandry. And it is vented unopposed on a website called FreeThoughtBlogs.
Leave her alone. She's clearly tweaking.

When she's down from her high, she might delete the comment.

(charitable interpretation)

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Re: Radfem Esteleth

#10466

Post by Lurkion »

welch wrote: I am now more stupid for having read that.
Fuck you Jan
Silly, welch.

Intelligence can't go below zero.

:rimshot:

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#10467

Post by Apples »

AbsurdWalls wrote:
Apples wrote:Finally catching up with the "forking and dongle" story from the Python Con. Interesting story. This is the blog of the offended "joke-overhearer" who sounded the alarm on the "brogrammers" sitting behind her who were, through their actions, apparently conspiring to suffocate all little-girl future-programmers in their playpens:

http://butyoureagirl.com/14015/forking- ... nferences/
This might be worse than anything I've seen in atheism/skepticism.
I agree.

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#10468

Post by Lurkion »

HoneyWagon wrote:So, it looks like the pit won't last (according to EBW) and was only started because people kept using the word "Cunt" a lot and got banned off of the good blogging sites.

http://i.imgur.com/2YUtNEY.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/yuSLjGd.jpg
Fuck me.

Why do they love to appeal to popularity so much?

REPUBLICANS GOT 50% OF THE VOTE LAST ELECTION so stfu, Ellenbeth.

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#10469

Post by Lurkion »

*around 50%

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#10470

Post by cunt »

You guys are getting through to someone called Dan L? When's the parade?

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#10471

Post by Phil_Giordana_FCD »

Al Stefanelli wrote:
welch wrote:
Al Stefanelli wrote:Blah blah blah...
It is what it is, Welch. Genetics. Science is always awesome, but it's not always pretty. I'm dealing with it fairly well, and I've got some totally awesome people supporting me at home, including my wife (I suppose it's misogynist to say 'my wife' Lol) and the rest of my family.

I hate to whine about it, as in spite of all of it, there are a shit-ton of people who have it way worse than I do, and with a horrible prognosis for their future. So far, everything I've got is at least manageable with medication and the occasional removal of various parts of my anatomy.

I'd rather just hang here and live vicariously through the wit and wisdom of those who have the time and energy to engage.
I hope it's not too late to say: all my best wishes, and again, don't be a fucking stranger!

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#10472

Post by Lurkion »

Holy crap this is slow.

LSUOMA! SPLIT THE THREAD! SPLIT THE THREAD!

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#10473

Post by windy »

Wonderist wrote: Hey Andrew, I, personally, have nothing against your invitation to them. If you will, allow me to 'interpret' how I think it would sound to Dan L. and any other of the SJW (contra Sam Harris) types.
*tap, tap, tap* Hello? Is this thing on?

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#10474

Post by Wonderist »

Dan L. tries to at least make an argument here. He's trying to put forth his causal explanation for why things are happening the way they happen. Worth dissecting.
244 Dan L. March 19, 2013 at 10:45 pm

I would like to say that the “Slymepit side” does have a few legitimate grievances here. For example, in my opinion Vacula was the one taking the high road in the SCA volunteer position situation and that the criticisms of Vacula didn’t warrant Zvan’s petition.

The problem as I see it is that the Slymepit consists partially of serious, earnest people trying to explain this to people at FtB and partially of angry, obsessed pamphleteers, “cartoonists”, and trolls who’ve poisoned the well regarding any talk about feminism, misogyny, etc. etc.

As well there seems to me to be a contingent of actual misogynists at the Slymepit.

Consider the possibility that it’s the trolls and misogynists who spend the most time at the loudest volume at other people’s blogs. Then ask yourself what opinion do you think such bloggers would have of the Slymepit as a community?

Yes, this is “guilt by association” of a sort, but here’s the thing: when you guys defend the Slymepit community you’re defending the trolls, “cartoonists”, and misogynists as well. You have reasons for that — you value free expression and open debate very highly. But as I’ve already argued free expression and open debate can be used as excuses to disrupt ongoing discussions and so not every online community is going to enshrine those values as the most important. The way your community is run rubs a lot of people at FtB the wrong way — similar to how /r/atheism rubs a lot of redditors the wrong way I suspect.

And like it or lump it, some people do want to derail conversations about feminism just because they’re trolls or misogynists who don’t approve of people saying such things. Some such folks might even be part of the Slymepit community.

I guess overall my big picture of this fight is this: many people at FtB are trying to have discussions about feminism, patriarchy, etc. Many people go out of their way to troll and derail such conversations. Some of these trolls and derailers come from the Slymepit. Folks at FtB get the impression that the whole point of the Slymepit community is to shut down discussions of feminism. This leads to instabans of ‘pitters since at, say, Pharyngula the community values safe space to discuss these things above giving every jackass with an IP address his or her own soapbox.

And then the ‘pitters (well, some of them) are mad because they’re being judged for the behavior of others and don’t get the chance to make their arguments. And as I said at the outset of this comment I do think there are valid arguments to be made. I just think there’s also been a lot of well poisoning to the point where I can understand why folks at FtB just wouldn’t want to deal with anyone calling him- or herself a ‘pitter.

Sorry about the rambly comment. Hope it makes some degree of sense.

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#10475

Post by JackSkeptic »

AbsurdWalls wrote:
Apples wrote:Finally catching up with the "forking and dongle" story from the Python Con. Interesting story. This is the blog of the offended "joke-overhearer" who sounded the alarm on the "brogrammers" sitting behind her who were, through their actions, apparently conspiring to suffocate all little-girl future-programmers in their playpens:

http://butyoureagirl.com/14015/forking- ... nferences/
This might be worse than anything I've seen in atheism/skepticism.
Yes what she did was completely disproportionate, highly damaging to the people involved and deeply immoral. I'm not surprised she is getting a lot of push back including from women on her post. Interestingly one blamed the 3rd wave of feminists including Watson for not referring to herself as a Feminist any more.

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#10476

Post by justinvacula »

[youtube]k52Ld3cPKq0[/youtube]

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#10477

Post by ReneeHendricks »

Wonderist wrote:
223 AndrewV69 March 19, 2013 at 9:21 pm

@Dan L. #205

Thanks for the long comment, I haven’t had the chance to read it just yet but I’m copying into text file so I won’t forget to.

I look forward to your response seeing as the SPs did not discuss it much.

Would you two consider doing it at the Slymepit? It would not be off-topic there vs this comment thread.
Basically, although Renee commented that the comments seemed hopeless, I actually think the comments around this section were making real progress. It's damn fucking slow progress. That's just how this works. It takes time and perseverance and repetition. (And it's good to take breaks and come back to it later, so you don't burn out.)
Just as an aside, I find it hopeless as many *good* comments and responses get buried in the inevitable onslaught of "nu-uh, s/h/it did this or said that or made me mad or I'll just put this stupid shit up here because I'm a giant twat". If that crap could be culled out of the lot, I'd be more hopeful :D

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#10478

Post by welch »

Apples wrote:Finally catching up with the "forking and dongle" story from the Python Con. Interesting story. This is the blog of the offended "joke-overhearer" who sounded the alarm on the "brogrammers" sitting behind her who were, through their actions, apparently conspiring to suffocate all little-girl future-programmers in their playpens:

http://butyoureagirl.com/14015/forking- ... nferences/
That is beyond ridiculous

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#10479

Post by JackSkeptic »

Submariner wrote:What's Phil on about at Nugent's? He keeps mentioning Louis, but I don't see a Louis in the thread. Is he talking about DanL???
There was a suggestion DanL may be a friend of Phil's called Louis who popped by here once. They have similar styles and it was just idle speculation. However Phil is putting people straight (including me)

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#10480

Post by justinvacula »

Two new pieces from me on Skeptic Ink Network today...I'd appreciate some of you weighing in



“Women’s center” at Marywood University – I’m skeptical

http://www.skepticink.com/justinvacula/ ... skeptical/

A student at the university I attend proposed an idea for a "women's center" concerned with addressing a "problem" of sexual assault at Marywood University which is almost completely unevidenced. I argue that if any center exists, it should be for everyone and cast doubt on the information provided which is supposed to justify the formation of such a center.


Crowdsourcing: ‘the gender wage gap’

http://www.skepticink.com/justinvacula/ ... -wage-gap/

I plan to write a term paper concerning what is often referred to as the 'gender wage gap.' I am quite skeptical of this alleged phenomena of women being paid less than men and would appreciate the best arguments of whatever else pertaining to this issue.

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#10481

Post by Lurkion »

Apples wrote:Finally catching up with the "forking and dongle" story from the Python Con. Interesting story. This is the blog of the offended "joke-overhearer" who sounded the alarm on the "brogrammers" sitting behind her who were, through their actions, apparently conspiring to suffocate all little-girl future-programmers in their playpens:

http://butyoureagirl.com/14015/forking- ... nferences/
tl;dr

SEX JOKES ARE NOT OK. BECAUSE SEX IS BAD. WOMEN HATE SEX SO PLEASE DO NOT MENTION IT.

Also, little girls. I saw a little girl and thought SHE'LL NEVER BE A DEVELOPER BECAUSE SOMEONE MIGHT MAKE A DONGLE SEX PUN. Because I'm not a developer because of sex puns, except I am. SEX JOKES ARE BAD.

(Fucking idiot)

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#10482

Post by welch »

Jack wrote:Wondesrist

I am almost certain they have no interest whatsoever in any discussion, neutral or otherwise. A few outliers have popped in to Nugent's but a tiny amount of the whole. They know their arguments to do not stand up to critical analysis. They have no interest in examining them.

They know what the Slympit is about they read here all the time. I'm posting there for some sitting on the fence and as a record of how evasive they are. It also serves as a good way to show how deluded SJW's are.

Finally it may provide useful information to other organisations who will know what they are getting before booking them for events or wanting them to contribute. TAM learned the hard way but others will not have to.

So while I'd be the first to like to see progress we have to be realistic here. My only unknown is what, if any, PM's Michael has had, perhaps from other groups.
I'm actually glad they keep popping off in that thread. They are the most glorious references for why I think any attempt at honest, open dialogue with that lot is impossible. The examples I've been able to show are awesome.

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#10483

Post by Reap »

HoneyWagon wrote:So, it looks like the pit won't last (according to EBW) and was only started because people kept using the word "Cunt" a lot and got banned off of the good blogging sites.

http://i.imgur.com/2YUtNEY.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/yuSLjGd.jpg
Batshit carzy people say batshit crazy shit, and morons go by names like ool0n. Aratina eh, not even worth an effort to be witty. I do find it interesting when little groups like these three form up and try to imitate a 'think tank' it is the funniest and most pathetic display I've come across ever. And my use of the word ever should be noted cause I've come across some nutty idiots but not like these stumps.
BTW if Ellenbeth or her cronies read this- I've been doing exactly what I am doing now for years. If you think I am going to stop now you couldn't be more wrong. So why not quit yap yap yapping, it only makes you look more foolish each time you open the hole under your nose. Ellenbeth haven't you lost enough credibility? I watched that vid of Rebecca speaking in FL the other night and the expression on Rebeccas face through just about all of it ? ....."suckers" I swear you must be fucking blind

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Re: Radfem Esteleth

#10484

Post by welch »

rocko2466 wrote:
welch wrote: I am now more stupid for having read that.
Fuck you Jan
Silly, welch.

Intelligence can't go below zero.

:rimshot:
I see what you did there.

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#10485

Post by Metalogic42 »

welch wrote:
Apples wrote:Finally catching up with the "forking and dongle" story from the Python Con. Interesting story. This is the blog of the offended "joke-overhearer" who sounded the alarm on the "brogrammers" sitting behind her who were, through their actions, apparently conspiring to suffocate all little-girl future-programmers in their playpens:

http://butyoureagirl.com/14015/forking- ... nferences/
That is beyond ridiculous
That's it. I'm just going to build a cabin in the woods and live there. Fuck people.

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#10486

Post by welch »

rocko2466 wrote:
Apples wrote:Finally catching up with the "forking and dongle" story from the Python Con. Interesting story. This is the blog of the offended "joke-overhearer" who sounded the alarm on the "brogrammers" sitting behind her who were, through their actions, apparently conspiring to suffocate all little-girl future-programmers in their playpens:

http://butyoureagirl.com/14015/forking- ... nferences/
tl;dr

SEX JOKES ARE NOT OK. BECAUSE SEX IS BAD. WOMEN HATE SEX SO PLEASE DO NOT MENTION IT.

Also, little girls. I saw a little girl and thought SHE'LL NEVER BE A DEVELOPER BECAUSE SOMEONE MIGHT MAKE A DONGLE SEX PUN. Because I'm not a developer because of sex puns, except I am. SEX JOKES ARE BAD.

(Fucking idiot)
My minion makes more dongle jokes than I do. She laughs hysterically at them. I almost had her peeing herself.

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#10487

Post by JackSkeptic »

welch wrote:
Jack wrote:Wondesrist

I am almost certain they have no interest whatsoever in any discussion, neutral or otherwise. A few outliers have popped in to Nugent's but a tiny amount of the whole. They know their arguments to do not stand up to critical analysis. They have no interest in examining them.

They know what the Slympit is about they read here all the time. I'm posting there for some sitting on the fence and as a record of how evasive they are. It also serves as a good way to show how deluded SJW's are.

Finally it may provide useful information to other organisations who will know what they are getting before booking them for events or wanting them to contribute. TAM learned the hard way but others will not have to.

So while I'd be the first to like to see progress we have to be realistic here. My only unknown is what, if any, PM's Michael has had, perhaps from other groups.
I'm actually glad they keep popping off in that thread. They are the most glorious references for why I think any attempt at honest, open dialogue with that lot is impossible. The examples I've been able to show are awesome.
Imagine what would happen if anyone of note from their side entered the fray. They know what would happen, they would be shown for what they are, so we have the sound of crickets.

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#10488

Post by AndrewV69 »

Wonderist wrote:
223 AndrewV69 March 19, 2013 at 9:21 pm

@Dan L. #205

Thanks for the long comment, I haven’t had the chance to read it just yet but I’m copying into text file so I won’t forget to.

I look forward to your response seeing as the SPs did not discuss it much.

Would you two consider doing it at the Slymepit? It would not be off-topic there vs this comment thread.
Hey Andrew, I, personally, have nothing against your invitation to them. If you will, allow me to 'interpret' how I think it would sound to Dan L. and any other of the SJW (contra Sam Harris) types.

It looks slimy and manipulative, like inviting a lamb to the slaughter. In this case, invite a lone SJW to a den of bullies to be abused, mocked, laughed at, beaten, perhaps even raped, shat on, taken photos of and published on the NYT, kicked to the curb, and as one final measure, pissed on, while the white male cops drive by giving the pitters a conspiratorial grin and a thumb's up.

So, it's pretty fucking offensive and hard to take at all seriously.

Of course, he's wrong, but he doesn't know that. Most of the SJWs reading that won't know they're wrong either.

Well it never occurred to me that it would be taken that way. I certainly have never had a problem being the lone voice of sanity in an insane asylum myself, so I suppose I have a tendency to assume other people are like that also.

I will try to bear it in mind in the future though.

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#10489

Post by Lurkion »

Oh and to clarify that was a "tl;dr" summary for those who didn't want to read. I read every fucking paragraph of that stupid thing.

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#10490

Post by Metalogic42 »

rocko2466 wrote:Oh and to clarify that was a "tl;dr" summary for those who didn't want to read. I read every fucking paragraph of that stupid thing.
You should read it again.












Dramatically.

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#10491

Post by JackSkeptic »

AndrewV69 wrote:
Wonderist wrote:
223 AndrewV69 March 19, 2013 at 9:21 pm

@Dan L. #205

Thanks for the long comment, I haven’t had the chance to read it just yet but I’m copying into text file so I won’t forget to.

I look forward to your response seeing as the SPs did not discuss it much.

Would you two consider doing it at the Slymepit? It would not be off-topic there vs this comment thread.
Hey Andrew, I, personally, have nothing against your invitation to them. If you will, allow me to 'interpret' how I think it would sound to Dan L. and any other of the SJW (contra Sam Harris) types.

It looks slimy and manipulative, like inviting a lamb to the slaughter. In this case, invite a lone SJW to a den of bullies to be abused, mocked, laughed at, beaten, perhaps even raped, shat on, taken photos of and published on the NYT, kicked to the curb, and as one final measure, pissed on, while the white male cops drive by giving the pitters a conspiratorial grin and a thumb's up.

So, it's pretty fucking offensive and hard to take at all seriously.

Of course, he's wrong, but he doesn't know that. Most of the SJWs reading that won't know they're wrong either.

Well it never occurred to me that it would be taken that way. I certainly have never had a problem being the lone voice of sanity in an insane asylum myself, so I suppose I have a tendency to assume other people are like that also.

I will try to bear it in mind in the future though.
I've invited several times. It is easy enough for them to check posts here and I like to drop it in to contrast the approach at FtB with their heavy moderation. If they take the invite the wrong way that is their problem.

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#10492

Post by Wonderist »

One *really* good thing about the On the primacy.. thread is that it's involving some of the *non*-big-names, such as Dan L. and doubtthat, and to some extent Lumen222. Basically, because they don't have as strong a reputation to *protect*, they are not as inherently entrenched as say Zvan or Crommunist, some of the minor-ish but still biggish names. So, one way to look at these 'dialogues' where OB, PZ et al don't show up is, "No probs, you'd be too entrenched anyway. Even if doubtthat, for instance, never 'wakes up', at least the discussions with doubtthat are useful to *onlookers*, whereas discussions with PZ wouldn't be useful at *all*."

Here, I mean useful for FTB-friendly-but-on-the-fence-or-persuadable people. PZ would just do his schtick, trying to please his fans with snappy soundbites/whatever, and it would be entirely wasted time. But doubtthat, for instance, doesn't have a honed schtick, and is actually responding to the things said, even if still rather entrenched.

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#10493

Post by welch »

rocko2466 wrote:Oh and to clarify that was a "tl;dr" summary for those who didn't want to read. I read every fucking paragraph of that stupid thing.
As did I. Fuck me running.

HE MADE DONGLE JOKES AT A TECH CONFERENCE.

Well, yes, that's where you would tend to talk about dongles. Or forking for that matter.

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#10494

Post by cunt »

Great employers that guy had. Sorry Larry but we can't back you up under any circumstances, the name of our company might get out and be remembered by feminists for all of two weeks. Thanks for your time at the company and there's the door.

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#10495

Post by Pitchguest »

justinvacula wrote:[youtube]k52Ld3cPKq0[/youtube]
She gets two people fired for a harmless joke and then she actually does this on twitter?



Wow.

If she's not fired for that joke, or the two guys reinstated and a public apology issued to them, that's disgusting.

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#10496

Post by Pitchguest »

I mean, what was the actual joke? Can you seriously get fired for making a joke about a "dongle" now?

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#10497

Post by Wonderist »

Dan L. wrote:297 Dan L. March 20, 2013 at 2:12 am

Ng@296:

Sadly, politics doesn’t play by engineering principles.
Quote of the century!

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#10498

Post by windy »


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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#10499

Post by Lurkion »

Metalogic42 wrote:
rocko2466 wrote:Oh and to clarify that was a "tl;dr" summary for those who didn't want to read. I read every fucking paragraph of that stupid thing.
You should read it again.












Dramatically.

SOLD!

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#10500

Post by Pitchguest »

Reeeeeally looking forward FtB's view on this. Woman reports two men making a joke about a big 'dongle' to eachother (aka a USB stick), takes a picture of them and posts it unbeknownst to them on her twitter (which is fucking illegal), they get blocked from the conference and fired from their jobs. She then later makes dick jokes on her own twitter with someone she knows and it defense says it's all about 'the context.' Oh, all about the context, is it? Fucking vile. Waste of a human being.

What the fuck.

What. The. Fuck.

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