Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

[Metalogic42]

Oh and to clarify that was a "tl;dr" summary for those who didn't want to read. I read every fucking paragraph of that stupid thing.

You should read it again.




Dramatically.

SOLD!

YES!!!!!!

[Cunning Punt]

You guys are getting through to someone called Dan L? When's the parade?

Fuck him. I spent some time responding to him and he basically said tl;dr.

[JackSkeptic]

One *really* good thing about the On the primacy.. thread is that it's involving some of the *non*-big-names, such as Dan L. and doubtthat, and to some extent Lumen222. Basically, because they don't have as strong a reputation to *protect*, they are not as inherently entrenched as say Zvan or Crommunist, some of the minor-ish but still biggish names. So, one way to look at these 'dialogues' where OB, PZ et al don't show up is, "No probs, you'd be too entrenched anyway. Even if doubtthat, for instance, never 'wakes up', at least the discussions with doubtthat are useful to *onlookers*, whereas discussions with PZ wouldn't be useful at *all*."

Here, I mean useful for FTB-friendly-but-on-the-fence-or-persuadable people. PZ would just do his schtick, trying to please his fans with snappy soundbites/whatever, and it would be entirely wasted time. But doubtthat, for instance, doesn't have a honed schtick, and is actually responding to the things said, even if still rather entrenched.

I'm sorry that Dan L's dismissive and patronising attitude gets on my nerves. He has been at it 2 days, some of us for 2 weeks working on progressing this. Yet he assumes the moral high ground and assumes ill intent with me.

He made a post and he best follow it up with evidence.

[Pitchguest]

Eggshells, eggshells everywhere...

http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/ ... fy-myself/

Hahahaha, so his style of rhetoric is backfiring on him. Brilliant.

[Wonderist]

Jack making a good point about 'redress'. I think, personally, that that's got to be one of the main foundations of reasonable dialogue. Drawing a blank, help me out: Isn't there some law-related thing about there being a right to have grievances heard and redressed by the government? Is that the US? All western countries? Constitutions? Common Law? Where does that come from?

318 Jack March 20, 2013 at 4:39 am

Dan L. 317

I do want to be clear here as there may be a miscommunication. I have zero issue with someone attacking others. As long as there is redress and redress as it happens, not someone telling them later when the damage is done or they are forced to scramble for a reply in some tweet.

So yes FtB can enforce any policy they want but they must then expect people to be very unhappy if they are denied a right of reply when attacked. It gives rise to a sense of deep injustice.

[Submariner]

Eggshells, eggshells everywhere...

http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/ ... fy-myself/

Hahahaha, so his style of rhetoric is backfiring on him. Brilliant.

Wow, I can't stand PZ and even I read his statement more charitably than Melisa McEwan did.

Eggshells indeed.

[DeepInsideYourMind]

Finally catching up with the "forking and dongle" story from the Python Con. Interesting story. This is the blog of the offended "joke-overhearer" who sounded the alarm on the "brogrammers" sitting behind her who were, through their actions, apparently conspiring to suffocate all little-girl future-programmers in their playpens:

http://butyoureagirl.com/14015/forking- ... nferences/

This might be worse than anything I've seen in atheism/skepticism.

It pretty common all over the trendy development sphere right now, recently Brit Ruby conference got cancelled due to a well known twitter developer referring to the lineup as being all male white guys ... after he stirred a bit, usual claims of sexism, misogyny, etc started flying https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4800972

[clownshoe]

Finally catching up with the "forking and dongle" story from the Python Con. Interesting story. This is the blog of the offended "joke-overhearer" who sounded the alarm on the "brogrammers" sitting behind her who were, through their actions, apparently conspiring to suffocate all little-girl future-programmers in their playpens:

http://butyoureagirl.com/14015/forking- ... nferences/

tl;dr

The programming language is called "Python" (named for Monty Python), the double-entendres almost write themselves.

Summary: Blogger finally gets her allocated Elevator Gate moment. Writes a post detailing her heroic actions.

"I'd been on the road since mid February attending and speaking at conferences"

"I know I don't have to be a hero in every situation. Sometimes I just want to go to a conference and be a geek. But..."

"The it happened....The trigger"

Go now, go now, go now, help escalate
Angels come down, help with this parade
To hear your voice ring out
Come on and shout it
Let your song be heard
This is the time
This is the day that we've been waiting for
All the world will stop to watch you shine

[Lurkion]

Finally catching up with the "forking and dongle" story from the Python Con. Interesting story. This is the blog of the offended "joke-overhearer" who sounded the alarm on the "brogrammers" sitting behind her who were, through their actions, apparently conspiring to suffocate all little-girl future-programmers in their playpens:

http://butyoureagirl.com/14015/forking- ... nferences/

tl;dr

The programming language is called "Python" (named for Monty Python), the double-entendres almost write themselves.

Summary: Blogger finally gets her allocated Elevator Gate moment. Writes a post detailing her heroic actions.

"I'd been on the road since mid February attending and speaking at conferences"

"I know I don't have to be a hero in every situation. Sometimes I just want to go to a conference and be a geek. But..."

"The it happened....The trigger"

Go now, go now, go now, help escalate
Angels come down, help with this parade
To hear your voice ring out
Come on and shout it
Let your song be heard
This is the time
This is the day that we've been waiting for
All the world will stop to watch you shine

Keen to have a guest on your podcast? ;) MOAR!

[cunt]

Jack making a good point about 'redress'. I think, personally, that that's got to be one of the main foundations of reasonable dialogue. Drawing a blank, help me out: Isn't there some law-related thing about there being a right to have grievances heard and redressed by the government? Is that the US? All western countries? Constitutions? Common Law? Where does that come from?

First amendment to the US constitution. I think you're confusing that with the "right of reply" though which actually isn't a right but more of a sop thrown by certain media publications entirely at their whim.

[Wonderist]

Jack getting a wee bit frustrated. There was some talking-past-each-other with Dan L., I think, which contributed. But wanted to keep this one because it talks about... well, ironically, the primacy of reasonable dialogue.

321 Jack March 20, 2013 at 5:47 am

Oolon (276)

I know you wish for the ‘why don’t we all just get on’ solution but that won’t happen as things are now. People have not been allowed to get on as they are not allowed a right of reply.

You can’t agree with someone you disagree with without discussion. You can’t accommodate others unless you are willing to do so by not trying to censor or shun.

There has never been a discussion. If they are allowed that then there is a chance of people at least agreeing to disagree while discussing the issues. Something productive may come from it.

That is the way to stop all the mud slinging. It is how the rationalist communities have always operated and it has served us well over many years. To expect otherwise is naive and just sticking a plaster on an open wound.

[AndrewV69]

Finally catching up with the "forking and dongle" story from the Python Con. Interesting story. This is the blog of the offended "joke-overhearer" who sounded the alarm on the "brogrammers" sitting behind her who were, through their actions, apparently conspiring to suffocate all little-girl future-programmers in their playpens:

http://butyoureagirl.com/14015/forking- ... nferences/

Interesting story. I also get the impression she does not get what a dongle, fork and repo is which is surprising because I get the impression she is supposed to be some sort of tech herself.

The way she went about it does not make her look too good either:

No confrontation with the guys who apparently had no idea she was offended at all. No possibility of clearing up any potiential misunderstanding on her part. Instead she goes for the kill right off the bat, and does it by proxy. Then proclaims herself to be a hero.

I suspect this is going to bounce back on her, some of them in ways she will possibly never hear about either.

(I am not saying she will not get hired again, but I am certain that a non-trivial number of people will now be leery about having her on their team).

[Pitchguest]

She is such a fucking liar. I have no words.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5399047

Her blog:

http://butyoureagirl.com/14015/forking- ... nferences/

Just to be clear, she is a blogging personality with many fans. These two guys have none of this "privilege" to speak of. She reported it to their employers and they fired them for it. One of them has a wife and three kids. She thinks her actions made her feel like Joan of Arc, minus the visions:



Wow. Wow.

[JackSkeptic]

Eggshells, eggshells everywhere...

http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/ ... fy-myself/

Hahahaha, so his style of rhetoric is backfiring on him. Brilliant.

He just met someone who had more screws loose than he is used to. In the normal everyday world it would have been 'Hey Myers did you man x?' and reply would be 'Err no I didn't I meant Y' and the response 'Oh no probs just checking' And that would have been it.

In the world of SJW's it becomes a major issue deserving of a blog post and numerous responses consisting of hand wringing and navel gazing.

[clownshoe]

Finally catching up with the "forking and dongle" story from the Python Con. Interesting story. This is the blog of the offended "joke-overhearer" who sounded the alarm on the "brogrammers" sitting behind her who were, through their actions, apparently conspiring to suffocate all little-girl future-programmers in their playpens:

http://butyoureagirl.com/14015/forking- ... nferences/

tl;dr

The programming language is called "Python" (named for Monty Python), the double-entendres almost write themselves.

Summary: Blogger finally gets her allocated Elevator Gate moment. Writes a post detailing her heroic actions.

"I'd been on the road since mid February attending and speaking at conferences"

"I know I don't have to be a hero in every situation. Sometimes I just want to go to a conference and be a geek. But..."

"The it happened....The trigger"

Go now, go now, go now, help escalate
Angels come down, help with this parade
To hear your voice ring out
Come on and shout it
Let your song be heard
This is the time
This is the day that we've been waiting for
All the world will stop to watch you shine

Keen to have a guest on your podcast? ;) MOAR!

Yeah, that'd be cool. I'll message you on Twitter.

[AndrewV69]

Eggshells, eggshells everywhere...

http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/ ... fy-myself/

Hahahaha, so his style of rhetoric is backfiring on him. Brilliant.

Wow, I can't stand PZ and even I read his statement more charitably than Melisa McEwan did.

Eggshells indeed.

What is that saying again? When you lie down with dogs you are going to get fleas?

[Pitchguest]

Eggshells, eggshells everywhere...

http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/ ... fy-myself/

Hahahaha, so his style of rhetoric is backfiring on him. Brilliant.

Wow, I can't stand PZ and even I read his statement more charitably than Melisa McEwan did.

Eggshells indeed.

Like the "good friends" of Josh the Spokesgay said, cult of personality. She seems to be vying, next to Amanda Marcotte, as the most insane feminist in the atheist community.

Also, Adria Richards seems to have taken classes by Ophelia Benson and gang. Seriously.

http://butyoureagirl.com/14015/forking- ... -834577416

It doesn't matter if you got people fired, it doesn't matter that THE ONLY PLACE PEOPLE CAN DISCUSS IT WITH YOU IS ON YOUR OWN BLOG. It's her blog and the final decision on who is trolling and who's not rests with her. Yep. I can expect her to report herself for making jokes of a sexual nature about someone's dick anytime soon, I bet. Aaaaanytime now.

[karlaporter]

Hi - last time I was here we were on page 85 and today it's 141.. Whoa is me. I thought some of you might enjoy today's blog post at my professional site - Are Women Doing it Right? http://karlaporter.com/just-me/are-women-doing-it-right

If you are so inclined, leave me a comment to let me know you visited :) ~Karla

[Pitchguest]

How long before the FtB narrative frames this as misogyny? How long before the FtB narrative frames this as a woman speaking up and is told to shut the fuck up? And who's going to be first, I wonder? Lousy? Benson? Myers? I can bet it's going to be something along those lines. I can bet the fact the two guys got fired for a joke is going to be distorted or omitted, or the fact the guys are two friends chatting with eachother making jokes amongst themselves is going to be framed as male privilege or similar.

I will bet my life's savings. Heck, I'll bet my life on it. Right now it's worth a couple of pennies (I'm close to broke), but they'll be the BEST PENNIES YOU'VE EVER SPENT.

Any takers?

[DeepInsideYourMind]

http://butyoureagirl.com/14015/forking- ... -834577416

It doesn't matter if you got people fired, it doesn't matter that THE ONLY PLACE PEOPLE CAN DISCUSS IT WITH YOU IS ON YOUR OWN BLOG. It's her blog and the final decision on who is trolling and who's not rests with her. Yep. I can expect her to report herself for making jokes of a sexual nature about someone's dick anytime soon, I bet. Aaaaanytime now.

Her defenders say you can make those jokes on Twitter, just not at a professional conference (WTF YOU CANT MAKE THIS UP)

She has said she was getting tired moderating comments to only allow those that let the conversation move forward (forgot where I read this), so even the anti-her-actions ones are pretty tame ... Hacker News gives a much better idea of the general feeling ... BUT ... the "celebrities" in the development sphere are largely backing her out of a sense of political correctness, this will enhance her career tremendously

[welch]

She is such a fucking liar. I have no words.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5399047

Her blog:

http://butyoureagirl.com/14015/forking- ... nferences/

Just to be clear, she is a blogging personality with many fans. These two guys have none of this "privilege" to speak of. She reported it to their employers and they fired them for it. One of them has a wife and three kids. She thinks her actions made her feel like Joan of Arc, minus the visions:



Wow. Wow.

a lot, a LOT of women coders I know are way unhappy about her actions. some told her in the comments on her post, and she basically ignored their points.

[DeepInsideYourMind]

She is such a fucking liar. I have no words.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5399047

Her blog:

http://butyoureagirl.com/14015/forking- ... nferences/

Just to be clear, she is a blogging personality with many fans. These two guys have none of this "privilege" to speak of. She reported it to their employers and they fired them for it. One of them has a wife and three kids. She thinks her actions made her feel like Joan of Arc, minus the visions:



Wow. Wow.

a lot, a LOT of women coders I know are way unhappy about her actions. some told her in the comments on her post, and she basically ignored their points.

Another standard line appears ...

Screen Shot 2013-03-21 at 2.09.04 PM.png

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[Lurkion]

I gotta be frank, seeing stuff like this, makes me think that people are MORE LIKELY to discriminate against women in the workforce. If you were worried that one joke about a dongle might get turned into the world's greatest melodrama, then maybe you would be less happy to have women in your workforce.

I am fortunate enough to work in a workplace where everyone feels comfortable making some amount of jokes and everyone is reasonably conscious of other people's feelings. If someone is offended, they say so and it is dealt with informally and like a positive social situation.

Some of the women at my office come in and make some sex puns, and I make some back at them. It's not flirting and neither of us take it to mean more than joking around.

The only time one of them really got offended was when I swore at her when we were having an argument. And I apologised and she accepted that apology.

Knowing what I know about this crazy blogger, I wouldn't hire her. I want people to be professional, respectful but also free to have some good-tasted fun. There's a line and 'dongle' jokes (note she didn't set out what they were) don't cross that line. I am just concerned that people like her set back other people by making litigation-conscious employers paranoid. And then less women get hired. And then we actually some form of institutional discrimination that radfems (not ordinary WRAs, but radfems) effectively created with their reactionary bullshit.

/rant

[Pitchguest]

And she's a tone troll:

http://butyoureagirl.com/14015/forking- ... -835121299

I am so looking forward to Skepchick/FTB/A+ take on this.

[Metalogic42]

And she's a tone troll:

http://butyoureagirl.com/14015/forking- ... -835121299

I am so looking forward to Skepchick/FTB/A+ take on this.

http://atheismplus.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=4277

[JackSkeptic]

Does anyone here Eristae over at Nugents may be a sock, troll or poe?

[DeepInsideYourMind]

And she's a tone troll:

http://butyoureagirl.com/14015/forking- ... -835121299

I am so looking forward to Skepchick/FTB/A+ take on this.

http://atheismplus.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=4277

Genius ... now they are "brogrammers" ... she "dared" to bring it up and blog about it ... " MRAs and related fiends have come out of the woodwork" to "MAKE this a big deal" about their "right to make dick jokes" ... completely missing the fact she got a guy fired through her actions, actions she herself describes as being irrational and being "triggered" by things in her past.

[JackSkeptic]

Here we are https://twitter.com/Eristae

[DownThunder]

I gotta be frank, seeing stuff like this, makes me think that people are MORE LIKELY to discriminate against women in the workforce. If you were worried that one joke about a dongle might get turned into..........

There is definitely an issue of perception. Most women are going to be mature enough to handle hearing (in this case overhearing something they were not involved with) something they do not like without making a giant theatre over it. With the lack of theatre is the lack of awareness of these women, while the egotistical women generate the attention that they crave.

This shouldn't be a problem, and it should be obvious that most women are reasonable. However the issue is that throughout society in general, there are little to no checks and balances to suppress egomaniacs like this. Even worse, there seems to be much reward in acting this way. (Hensley, Watson, take your pick)

In a reasonable world, this should have been a non-event, and yet look at the outcome. Id like to think this Adria couldnt look at herself in the mirror, though she probably has sociopathic tendancies too. Im sure in her mind, her behaviour has been fully rationalised as righteous.

[DeepInsideYourMind]

In a reasonable world, this should have been a non-event, and yet look at the outcome. Id like to think this Adria couldnt look at herself in the mirror, though she probably has sociopathic tendancies too. Im sure in her mind, her behaviour has been fully rationalised as righteous.

Righteous? She actually said she was like Joan of Arc ... how much more fucking righteous can you get????

Screen Shot 2013-03-21 at 2.37.33 PM.png

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Leading to:

[Aneris]

A super long post on Michael's Thread...YMMV, awaiting moderation...

Hey Michael, another thanks for your ongoing efforts! I like to get away from abstractions and go through actual *example* cases. I’ll put the links below so everything is out in the open. Call me out when I got something wrong.

“How to Make a Misogynist” An example case. In a video(1), Thunderf00t comments on the Young Turks co-host Ana Kasparian and discusses how her looks might affect her work: We have a person of the skeptical/atheist community that looks into sexism and gives his opinions. PZ Myers picks it up(2) and frames Thunderf00t as a sexist. His commentariat follows the usual script: Thunderf00t becomes one of those misogynists that allegedly want to preserve a status quo of white men in charge (overall narrative). Quite unexpectedly, Ana Kasparian herself recorded an affirmative response(3) to Thunderf00t, where she thanked him as someone who is exactly not what Pharyngulanhas claimed. Oops.

• Irony Interlude I: Curiously, the only white privileged man I know who actively doesn’t want a female speaker at a conference is —well, well— PZ Myers: “I will not participate in any conference in which Abbie Smith is a speaker. If I’m invited, and later discover that she is also invited, I will politely turn down the offer”(4).

Different Views, only one extreme
We see, different interpretations on the same video/opinion, but on Pharyngula it’s combined with extreme allegations (libel/defamation territory), presented as if infallible and loaded with emotions to feed their narrative. Next to being portrayed as a sexist/misogynist, Thunderf00t in this case is ridiculed on a high traffic network.

• Irony Interlude II The above is fairly common on FTB, plenty of non-persons are targeted, in blog posts and in the ongoing comment threads. But when the Slymepitters (a small forum, with much less traffic) pokes fun at FreeThouhtBloggers and run their ongoing commentary thread, they are being “obsessed”!

A Curious Side Effect
What if Ana Kasparian herself, who was affirmative of Thunderf00t had commented under a pseudonym in the Pharyngula comment section: she would come out as a misogynist and probably as a Slymepit agent. Besides, I was “recruited” that way, and I am pro-feminism (too)!

• Irony Interlude III While people are placed on the high traffic FTB pillory as alleged misogynists and are bullied and defamed there all the time, Stephanie Zvan, herself blogger at FTB, complains about, wait for it, defamation and bullying and criticizes: the Others! Of course(5). Meanwhile Benson cries “libel”(6) as she is concerned about insulting words that were (at most) misattributed to her.

”Misogyny” is Just a Word
Portraying someone as a sexist, misogynist, racist, rape enabler … based on *nothing* is a serious issue and might have a dramatic effect on someone’s life: imagine a possible employer, new girl-boyfriend, contract partner, friends, family etc. happen upon such allegations? Smearing other people is not only common on FreeThoughtBlogs, it is tolerated and apparently even encouraged by Myers/Clarke at least. But users overlap and have been seen as regulars at Bensons/Zvan’s blogs.

• Irony Interlude IV When people had issues with Rebecca Watson —PZ Myers protégé— we’ve been told that this was somehow proof of the patriarchy (Abbie Smith, that's different, of course!) But what about the way she responded to McGraw; her poor troll management; how she asked for a Dawkins-boycott; you can’t disagree on these things? What about feminism and women’s issues. Watson even claimed: “most women” don’t see sexism and misogyny: “I’m not implying they are lying”, it would just “go by unnoticed by most women”(7). Are we speaking here of “ways of knowing” that is inaccessible to others? Perhaps that explains that this side can dish out severe allegations others don't see justified?

The Evolution of a Social Dynamic
Once upon a time, there were many Creationists that presented themselves as natural foils. The Pharyngulanhas could quote them and then show off their expert biology knowledge and thereby win social points among their peers. When this largely dried up, and the focus of Pharyngula and FTB shifted towards social issues, there was a problem: how do you get woman-haters, racists, sexist and so on? Create them! We have seen a high profile example above, now let’s see how to do it in the comment sections. For one, there are insults that are frowned upon. But insults are generally encouraged. They then just wait until an unsuspecting person (newbie) issues a wrong insult, and they've got a candidate. In the words of the RationalWiki, the tactic is known as a “deliberate offence”(8) combined with a group “Gish Gallop”, also known as “dogpiling” in FTB jargon. Once the foil is created, regular commenters can show off their Feminism 101 and win social points and a round of applause just like before. People who aren’t submissive are bullied and forced to explain or apologize, which is received appreciatively by the commentariat. I regard this as creepy and abusive. But I’m not writing the narrative. When someone denies the allegation that they are a misogynist, the commentariat would claim that they deny that the issue exists, and thus: Guilty! Learned from Christians: “You reject Jesus, you approve of murder” kind of logic. Approaching on your knees, with a “sexist confession story” is advised if someone wants to win sympathy there.

• “It’s okay when we do it!” –FreeThoughtBlogs Motto (unofficial)

(Try just copy paste into browser, in case of broken link add http://)

(1) TF/Kasparian video: youtu.be/dzDTmAsIjYI
(2) PZM/Comment: tinyurl.com/PZM-TF00t
(3) Ana Kasparian Response: youtu.be/YcSglVRYe6M
(4) PZM on excluding Smith: tinyurl.com/PZMAbbieSmith
(5) Zvan and Defamation: tinyurl.com/zvan-defamation
(6) Benson and Libel: tinyurl.com/Benson-Libel
(7) Watson on Women: youtu.be/2ZYhbj1RGKs?t=34m50s
(8) rationalwiki.org/wiki/Deliberate_offence
(9) cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/250x250/36190162.jpg
(*) en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redshirt_%28character%29

[Lurkion]

In a reasonable world, this should have been a non-event, and yet look at the outcome. Id like to think this Adria couldnt look at herself in the mirror, though she probably has sociopathic tendancies too. Im sure in her mind, her behaviour has been fully rationalised as righteous.

Righteous? She actually said she was like Joan of Arc ... how much more fucking righteous can you get????

Screen Shot 2013-03-21 at 2.37.33 PM.png

Leading to:

I would say she's overplaying her hand, but the radfems gobble this shit up.

Every time it looks patently ridiculous, you get them all swarming in and yelling "JOAN! JOAN! JOAN! JOAN!"

[JackSkeptic]

Jack getting a wee bit frustrated. There was some talking-past-each-other with Dan L., I think, which contributed. But wanted to keep this one because it talks about... well, ironically, the primacy of reasonable dialogue.

321 Jack March 20, 2013 at 5:47 am

Oolon (276)

I know you wish for the ‘why don’t we all just get on’ solution but that won’t happen as things are now. People have not been allowed to get on as they are not allowed a right of reply.

You can’t agree with someone you disagree with without discussion. You can’t accommodate others unless you are willing to do so by not trying to censor or shun.

There has never been a discussion. If they are allowed that then there is a chance of people at least agreeing to disagree while discussing the issues. Something productive may come from it.

That is the way to stop all the mud slinging. It is how the rationalist communities have always operated and it has served us well over many years. To expect otherwise is naive and just sticking a plaster on an open wound.

Dan L and Oolon were making points that had been dealt with 3 weeks ago so yes I got annoyed. He does not get to take any high ground when he has not bothered on his basic research.

[Percentage]

The whole McEwan thing is making me LOL. I mean Jesus Tittyfucking Christ, talk about uncharitable. If this were anything other than fucking FEMINISM, Peezus would be shrieking at the top of his lungs.

Not that I care, because fuck PZ, but it is hilarious to watch McEwan twist his words to mean... I'm not really clear what she thinks he was saying, actually. I guess she's pissed at the additional implication women should be decent human beings too?

[Percentage]

The whole McEwan thing is making me LOL. I mean Jesus Tittyfucking Christ, talk about uncharitable. If this were anything other than fucking FEMINISM, Peezus would be shrieking at the top of his lungs.

Not that I care, because fuck PZ, but it is hilarious to watch McEwan twist his words to mean... I'm not really clear what she thinks he was saying, actually. I guess she's pissed at the additional implication women should be decent human beings too?

[Altair]

I would say she's overplaying her hand, but the radfems gobble this shit up.

Every time it looks patently ridiculous, you get them all swarming in and yelling "JOAN! JOAN! JOAN! JOAN!"

There seem to be plenty of supportive comments on twitter. Most of the opposing comments seem to come from men, while the supportive ones seem to be split between the genders.

Here's an interesting conversation about the subject, where at least people are trying to understand each other's point:

The part that bothers me, though, is this:

Heather Lynn Rose Jo ‏@HLRJO 18m

@xzased @ThaRealDequan @adriarichards Also, (I know it's cliche) do consider what it's like to be a woman. Even small things have an impact.

Being male, I can only imagine and extrapolate what being a woman is like, but I highly doubt that women are such frail creatures that hearing a lewd joke will send them into catatonia.

It gets tiring to have women call for equal treatment and empowerment while at the same time claiming they are delicate little flowers that can't withstand anything.

This speaks badly of me, and makes me actually ashamed, but, FSM, sometimes I understand misogynists. If it wasn't for the sane women I know in real life and the sane women I know online (including the lady pitters), there are days I could easily slide into that mindset.
:oops:

[Southern]

Finally catching up with the "forking and dongle" story from the Python Con. Interesting story. This is the blog of the offended "joke-overhearer" who sounded the alarm on the "brogrammers" sitting behind her who were, through their actions, apparently conspiring to suffocate all little-girl future-programmers in their playpens:

http://butyoureagirl.com/14015/forking- ... nferences/

tl;dr

SEX JOKES ARE NOT OK. BECAUSE SEX IS BAD. WOMEN HATE SEX SO PLEASE DO NOT MENTION IT.

Also, little girls. I saw a little girl and thought SHE'LL NEVER BE A DEVELOPER BECAUSE SOMEONE MIGHT MAKE A DONGLE SEX PUN. Because I'm not a developer because of sex puns, except I am. SEX JOKES ARE BAD.

(Fucking idiot)

I insist: if women want to get offended by "fork and dongle" jokes, they should at least get offended by the right reason: these jokes are so pedestrian and noobish, programmers would tell them ironically, in that tone of "I'll make the obligatory fork = fuck joke, herp derp, isn't it sweet?" that we use when someone says or do something that may open up for a stupid joke like that.

So, my dear easily-pissed women afraid of dongle jokes, that's the real enemy right there. Not patriarchy, not misogyny, but pure, simple, eeeevil failure at humor. And, quite frankly, this level of shitty jokes should grant you a discharge from service and a kick in the nuts (or cunt, if one could call Franc). Let's focus our resources and efforts on the real problem, okay?

[Pitchguest]

My post on Adria Richards blog, awaiting moderation (will likely get shitcanned; she has the "final say" on which post gets through)

http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/6259/replyadria.jpg

[Southern]

Eggshells, eggshells everywhere...

http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/ ... fy-myself/

Hahahaha, so his style of rhetoric is backfiring on him. Brilliant.

Wow, I can't stand PZ and even I read his statement more charitably than Melisa McEwan did.

Eggshells indeed.

But he deserves every bit of those eggshells, the sanctimonious asshole.

Now excuse me while I go piss myself laughing at him once again.

[CommanderTuvok]

Stephanie Zvan writes another blog post whining how she can't call people liars on Nugent's anymore, harassing Justin Vacula yet again, and the usual suspects and call the "Slymepit" (you know, the collective) the usual (misogynists, sexists, rape apologists, evil, etc, etc) and one poster called Susan writes this doss:

Good thing too, because I'd sue her for libel!

:lol:

[Southern]

She is such a fucking liar. I have no words.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5399047

Her blog:

http://butyoureagirl.com/14015/forking- ... nferences/

Just to be clear, she is a blogging personality with many fans. These two guys have none of this "privilege" to speak of. She reported it to their employers and they fired them for it. One of them has a wife and three kids. She thinks her actions made her feel like Joan of Arc, minus the visions:



Wow. Wow.

a lot, a LOT of women coders I know are way unhappy about her actions. some told her in the comments on her post, and she basically ignored their points.

Another standard line appears ...

Screen Shot 2013-03-21 at 2.09.04 PM.png

Another one of those blue-haired, hipster bitches? Damn. I used to like women with blue dyed hairs. Then the hipsters came and sucked all my enjoyment of it. AGAIN.

Oh, and BTW, about stupid dongle jokes: those women are noobs. They should be here for the HYMEM jokes during MS-DOS haydays. Those were the shit.

[Southern]

In a reasonable world, this should have been a non-event, and yet look at the outcome. Id like to think this Adria couldnt look at herself in the mirror, though she probably has sociopathic tendancies too. Im sure in her mind, her behaviour has been fully rationalised as righteous.

Righteous? She actually said she was like Joan of Arc ... how much more fucking righteous can you get????

Screen Shot 2013-03-21 at 2.37.33 PM.png

Leading to:

Hey sister: first you get burned at the stake, then you can call yourself Joana D'Arc, ok?

[Aneris]

Radfems have a completely stereotypical and largely theoretical image of men. When they write about men they sound like celibate priests sermonizing about women. Their men are loathsome, one-dimensional creatures who fear only one thing: to be mistaken for a woman, and who lust after one thing only: total domination of women. It is possible that such men actually exist, but it is probable that they were already a small minority among cave men and that their numbers have dwindled ever since. I, for one, don’t recognise myself, or almost any man I have ever known, at all in the picture that Pharyngulag inmate Esteleth paints here:

http://i.imgur.com/1cPCKZ6.jpg

http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/ ... ent-583453

If to be “a man” is to not be “a woman,” then to be “a man” one must be ANTI-WOMAN.

Inherently.

This is a stupendous logic fail. For even if the, actually faulty, premise (to be “a man” is to not be “a woman”) is assumed, it does not follow at all, let alone “inherently”, that to be “a man” one must be anti-woman. To be “an adult” is to not be “a child”. Does it follow that to be “an adult” one must be anti-child? Of course not. This whole line of “reasoning” is pseudo-intellectual bullshit of the worst kind. It is not even childish nonsense, it is worse than that. It is toxic drivel, aimed to drive a wedge between men and women. It’s pathological and hateful. It’s bigotry. It’s on the moral plane of anti-semitism and KKK-level racism. It’s pure and carefully thought out misandry. And it is vented unopposed on a website called FreeThoughtBlogs.

Hihi, I find her views more amusing and almost unbelievable. But you are right, it is dangerous drivel.

@"Pharyngulag inmate" I'm seeing a scene in FTB Siberia, where one can actually have "free thoughts" (but better not express them). Besides, thanks for your photoshops, they are awesome (didn't get around to say thanks yet). I even enjoyed them when I was just lurking, and often found them straight to the point of what I was seeing at FfTB. :)

[Gefan]

...Years ago I had a protracted argument with Marcotte over prostitution and johns. She fervently believes that men patronize prostitutes because they get off on the act of "buying a woman" in other words just the act of hiring a prostitute is a fetish that objectives women, is misogynistic, yadda, yadda, yadda. While that may be true is some rare cases, she thinks it's 100% and cannot be convinced otherwise. Where she got this idea, I don't know.But she KNOWS exactly what goes on in a john's head and don't you dare tell her otherwise.

I'm progressively less worried about Marcotte the more I hear from her. The reasoning for this is embodied in an old Bloom County strip from the eighties.
Steve Dallas, the Greg Laden of comic book attorneys, has been framed for hacking into a computer at the Pentagon. In court he protests his innocence and is told by the judge; "Mr Dallas, I've been listening to you all morning and I've reached the inescapable conclusion that you haven't the brains to successfully pick your nose, much less operate a computer".

[JackSkeptic]

Aneris, it is 5am In the UK so you may have to wait a few hours before it gets out of moderation.

[TheMan]

and meanwhile in Australia...the Government in power is going through the process of a leadership spill. The second one in 3 years.

[lurking coward]

Once upon a time, there were many Creationists that presented themselves as natural foils. The Pharyngulanhas could quote them and then show off their expert biology knowledge and thereby win social points among their peers. When this largely dried up, and the focus of Pharyngula and FTB shifted towards social issues, there was a problem: how do you get woman-haters, racists, sexist and so on? Create them!

I've heard this theory before. It's sn interesing speculstion. It should be noted however that the spectacle of self-righteous jerks going on crusades against imaginary racism/sexism/whatever-else-ism has been in vogue in many sectors of society long before the Pharyngulanhas and their ilk got into it. They're actually kinda late to the party.

I've quietly noticed this sort of thing amongst colleagues of mine for years, and always found it very interesting, but depressing. It's a sad spectacle, as it tends to reveal the fact that humans seem to be hopelessly hardwired for irrationality and to have a need for 'moral crusades', and the two often go hand in hand. I've sat in conversations with friends of mine whom I respect greatly in most respects, and listened to them expertly identify and break down the irrationality of a religious loon here or a right wing extremist there, etc., and to at some later point in the conversation they'll start ranting piously about various and sundry 'isms' employing all the same sort of fallacies and irrational modes of discourse they'd just been pointing out in others.

There was a short story I read a while back which involved two unidentified speakers talking about the futile senselessness of the behavior of some warring ants or termites or some such they were observing. They described the mindless, warring insects from a position of presumed superiority, themselves unencumbered by such petty drives and instincts and herd mentality. Then the not so subtle point of the story is made when they are revealed to be two infantrymen chatting during a lull in combat. Get it? They're just like the ants! Well, that's what these SJW/Atheism Plus/'Pharyngaloons' sorta remind me of.

Well, that, and the pigs from Animal Farm.

But I digress.

[Wonderist]

Critical point from Submariner, regarding, for lack of a simpler term right now, non-mutual-exclusivity:

3 Submariner March 20, 2013 at 1:35 pm

Thanks again, Michael, for the effort to stop the distracting schism in the community.

Regarding #3: The horns of this dilemma are (for me) the fact that these social justice issues already have various advocacy groups to which an individual my participate in. Here is a sample of some of the many social justice organizations extant:

http://www.startguide.org/orgs/orgs06.html

Membership in these groups is not mutually exclusive to membership in others. It is my belief that the narrower the focus of an advocacy group, the better they are able to achieve their goals, due to limited resources being applied exclusively to a small number of issues rather than all the ills of society.

It’s my personal belief that atheist groups should focus on the few core principles you listed in point #1. This does not mean that discussions of other issues cannot be had, just that the main thrust of the public outreach and advocacy be narrow.

[Gefan]

Eggshells, eggshells everywhere...

http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/ ... fy-myself/

Hahahaha, so his style of rhetoric is backfiring on him. Brilliant.

He just met someone who had more screws loose than he is used to. In the normal everyday world it would have been 'Hey Myers did you man x?' and reply would be 'Err no I didn't I meant Y' and the response 'Oh no probs just checking' And that would have been it.

In the world of SJW's it becomes a major issue deserving of a blog post and numerous responses consisting of hand wringing and navel gazing.

I used to say that the only reason I was more afraid of the Religious Right in America than I was of the PC Left is that there were more of the former.
The more baboon watching I do the more I have to amend that statement.
First off, baboon types are, by and large, comically inept at violence. It's hard not to read any history of The Weathermen as (at best) black comedy.
Then there's the whole "People's Front of Judea" crazy contest syndrome. I'm not sure we wouldn't be better served if we all just rigged for silent running and watched them start flinging shit at each other until the lights go out.
Alas, I think that I, for one, am addicted to the lulz, (which is the only thing of worth any of them will ever produce).

[Gefan]

Since we've brought up Joan of Arc (albeit by a thoroughly tortuous route). I had to post this.
Flawed movie that could probably have been better condensed down to this scene, but, oh, what a scene!

[youtube]Gf7YSlJReVM[/youtube]

[JackSkeptic]

Eggshells, eggshells everywhere...

http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/ ... fy-myself/

Hahahaha, so his style of rhetoric is backfiring on him. Brilliant.

He just met someone who had more screws loose than he is used to. In the normal everyday world it would have been 'Hey Myers did you man x?' and reply would be 'Err no I didn't I meant Y' and the response 'Oh no probs just checking' And that would have been it.

In the world of SJW's it becomes a major issue deserving of a blog post and numerous responses consisting of hand wringing and navel gazing.

I used to say that the only reason I was more afraid of the Religious Right in America than I was of the PC Left is that there were more of the former.
The more baboon watching I do the more I have to amend that statement.
First off, baboon types are, by and large, comically inept at violence. It's hard not to read any history of The Weathermen as (at best) black comedy.
Then there's the whole "People's Front of Judea" crazy contest syndrome. I'm not sure we wouldn't be better served if we all just rigged for silent running and watched them start flinging shit at each other until the lights go out.
Alas, I think that I, for one, am addicted to the lulz, (which is the only thing of worth any of them will ever produce).

Well, they have a tendency to implode, just look at A+. It's why they have to hijack movements just to get going.

[Wonderist]

Fuck, with Russell Blackford now taking part in the discussion, we have officially 'crossed the chasm'. Congrats, everyone!

Not done yet, but this is, as the term 'chasm' implies, a very big step. Shit's going to start to move ahead, big time now. Soon more 'mainstream' types will start to speak up. I saw the latest Shermer link, but haven't read it yet. Expect more well-known names to speak up.

If you want to help accelerate the process:
[*] If you happen to have any connections with more 'forward looking', avant garde mainstream 'names', alert them to this ongoing discussion, and hint/nudge/wink that they should take a closer look, or, just come right out and say it straight. When one 'name' speaks up, that gives a bit more courage to other 'names', and each one makes it easier for the next one to speak up. It's like a snowball effect, or for the science/math geeks, it's an exponential growth curve. The sequel book to Crossing the Chasm is called Inside the Tornado ( but we're not in the Tornado yet. First is the Bowling Alley, where the first 'pin' knocks down the next two pins, and they knock down three more, etc. etc. until your relatively small bowling ball has amazingly managed to knock down all 10 pins. We don't need a perfect 'strike', just need to give the process a little push. One way you can do this is to mention to your contact, "Hey did you see Russell Blackford getting involved in this discussion over here? Looks like a topic that'd be right up your alley." (Sorry, had to go for that pun :P ) Again, you use one 'pin', one 'name', to knock over then next couple pins/names, and then you have three names to knock down the next ones, etc.
[*] Off the top of my head: Jerry Coyne, Paula Kirby, Penn and/or Teller (ya never know), Tim Minchin, fuck maybe Ricky Gervais if anyone happens to have an in. These are just wild brainstorm guesses, probably unrealistic, but it doesn't take much just to *mention* something to someone. There are a *lot* of less-widely-known, but still influential 'names' out there, and I'm sure most of you probably know at least *one* person you could mention this to. Just spreading the word, that's all. Those who are interested in taking part will, those who aren't won't. All we need are one or two to 'get the ball rolling', which totally fucks with the metaphor, but whatever.

(Please note, the intention here is not to 'stack the deck', just to accelerate the process, build momentum, get things done rather than sit on our asses.)
(Also, please note, that I fully accept that I may be totally wrong about this.)
(And, just to be clear, this is just an idea off the top of my head. Not your thing? Feel free to ignore.)

[Yanbu]

None of them seems to have even a basic understanding of how to extend their influence beyond their existing audience, and it's pretty clear that given brayton and PeeZus' business sense, that site lasting another year is at best 50-50. They're losing people on a steady level and no one there is really cranking out the traffic the way PeeZus used to on SciBlogs. They also just don't know how to create income for that site.

I have no inkling of blog economics. How much can you really make on a blog site? Back when PZ was cranking stuff out on SciBlogs he said at one point that he barely made beer money for it. Do you figure any of these people actually earn a living griping about misogynists and creationists? That would surprise the hell out of me.

[rayshul]

At this point, I am just trying to stay alive and reasonably chipper. I'll still be writing news for Google, and be here at the pit. I am planning to continue with Reap's show when doctors appointments don't conflict, as well as The God Discussion show. If I am feeling up to it, and am invited, I'd be glad to participate in whatever podcasts the Pitters and others want me to chime in on. But, I've pretty much had it with the bullshit. The last thing I need is to be harassed on Facefuck, Twatter or YouLube.

I don't need the aggravation or the impact the stress is having on my health.

Look after yourself, Al... internet hugs!

[Wonderist]

45 Submariner March 20, 2013 at 5:28 pm

@33

From Atheist Alliance International-Dublin Declaration:

Personal Freedoms

Freedom of conscience, religion and belief are private and unlimited. Freedom to practice religion should be limited only by the need to respect the rights and freedoms of others.
All people should be free to participate equally in the democratic process.
Freedom of expression should be limited only by the need to respect the rights and freedoms of others. There should be no right ‘not to be offended’ in law. All blasphemy laws, whether explicit or implicit, should be repealed and should not be enacted.

Secular Democracy

The sovereignty of the State is derived from the people and not from any god or gods.
The only reference in the constitution to religion should be an assertion that the State is secular.
The State should be based on democracy, human rights and the rule of law. Public policy should be formed by applying reason, and not religious faith, to evidence.
Government should be secular. The state should be strictly neutral in matters of religion and its absence, favouring none and discriminating against none.
Religions should have no special financial consideration in public life, such as tax-free status for religious activities, or grants to promote religion or run faith schools.
Membership of a religion should not be a basis for appointing a person to any State position.
The law should neither grant nor refuse any right, privilege, power or immunity, on the basis of faith or religion or the absence of either.

Secular Education

State education should be secular. Religious education, if it happens, should be limited to education about religion and its absence.
Children should be taught about the diversity of religious and nonreligious philosophical beliefs in an objective manner, with no faith formation in school hours.
Children should be educated in critical thinking and the distinction between faith and reason as a guide to knowledge. Science should be taught free from religious interference.

One Law For All

There should be one secular law for all, democratically decided and evenly enforced, with no jurisdiction for religious courts to settle civil matters or family disputes.
The law should not criminalise private conduct because the doctrine of any religion deems such conduct to be immoral, if that private conduct respects the rights and freedoms of others.
Employers or social service providers with religious beliefs should not be allowed to discriminate on any grounds not essential to the job in question.

That’s what an atheism “movement” should be about. A clearly defined and rather short list of things to focus on. If you feel that you personal efforts need to be directed in any other advocacy, by all means, please do so. If advocacy of the above principles is not important to you, I suggest that other groups would welcome you with open arms.

In so much as you wish to assist in espousing the above principles, I too welcome you.

I'd make a few tweaks, but not many, to these basic statements. I think submariner is right that we need a *minimalistic* set of *foundational* principles that we can all agree on *easily*. And from there, if you want to sprout off a branch 'sub-movement' or 'side-movement' or whatever you want to call it, then you can *also* choose to join that sub-grouping. Basically, a whole bunch of overlapping Venn circles, where more specialized ones are sub-sets of more generalized ones. So 'atheist' would be a sub-set of 'secular'. But it doesn't even have to be strict sub-sets, you can 'mix n match', 'pick n choose', which principles you want to be defending.

I think, if we let each person define their own 'profile' or 'preferences', then we could bypass all of this "Well I want it to be about *this*," and "But I want it to be about *that*". Instead, each 'issue' would be agreed upon individually. You don't have to have *one* atheist/skeptic movement, or even just two or five or 10. Each separate 'issue' would essentially have its own 'movement'.

Now, practically speaking, you're going to get *lots* of overlap, so it won't really be like 1000 movements for 1000 people.

In fact, now that I think about it, it really could work, it would be like a 'family tree' type of thing, or and evolutionary tree. Where you've got the SJW 'branch' or 'species' of 'family', and the Sam Harris 'branch', and where they overlap, they overlap, and where they don't, they don't. As long as we can keep things clear (not calling people misogynists who clearly are not, etc.), then it could, in theory anyway, be done.

The point is you have a branch for this, a branch for that, and they could even intertwine. But when you trace it back to the more *foundational* concepts, like secularity, then all the 'branches' are shown to have a common 'foundation' or 'root'.

Logically, it may not be as simple as that (it may be a much higher-dimensional problem to solve than what I was describing there), but still, I think theoretically, it could be solved.

Imagine having a voting ballot. But instead of voting for candidates, you vote for specific issues. You want to vote for 'promote reason against faith', you vote for that. You want 'get religion out of the way of my social justice activism', you vote for that.

Then, you collect all the data, sort it out (easier said than done, but that's the thing I was saying I think could be solved theoretically...), and then you can *measure* the actual interest levels in the actual 'community' and develop activism and conferences and discussion groups, whatever the fuck based on that *empirical* information.

Don't get tangled up in the implementation details. This is a hypothetical idea. Think of it like a hypothetical machine, like the Turing Machine, but this machine is more like a social networking website on steroids and cybernetics. The actual implementation could be much more 'down to earth' and simplified than the hypothetical idea. Like, for instance, voting on actual slips of paper, if the 'community' is just like 10 people or something.

As Nugent is trying to emphasize, it's the *process* we have to come to some sort of agreement on. The specific *issues* can start to be addressed once we get a bit of workable process in place.

[DeepInsideYourMind]

http://butyoureagirl.com/14015/forking- ... -834921384

−
This is satire of what an overzealous feminist would do... right? You didnt *ACTUALLY* ruin 2 peoples(and by extension, their families) lives because of a immature and harmless joke, right? And you wouldn't flaunt that ability as some wonderful accomplishment, right?

The saddest part about all of this is, these women think this 3rd wave of feminism is going to work in their interest. It isnt. 3 months ago i would have considered myself a feminist, since we're all trying to work for true equality, right? But the more i read about this.... the Anita Sarkeesian's, the Rebecca Watson's, and now the Andria Richard's... The more i realize this is less about equality, and more about feelings of victimization and 'getting even with men', regardless what the individual did, just as long as he has a penis. Sorry, but i cant be associated with that anymore. Id rather hit the glass ceiling than blindly and arbitrarily ruin my peers lives because i dont have a penis.

You're a simple minded PERSON Andria. What you did reflects poorly on all of us women, but even worse on humankind.

[Wonderist]

Wow, up till now I've had a 'meh' opinion of Gurdur because of his close-but-not-quite-and-ultimately-fail analysis of the gnu/accommo thing, but this post of his was really good (too long to copy pasta, but not actually a tl;dr. easy to read actually): http://www.michaelnugent.com/2013/03/20 ... ent-203486

[Wonderist]

Jack making a good point about 'redress'. I think, personally, that that's got to be one of the main foundations of reasonable dialogue. Drawing a blank, help me out: Isn't there some law-related thing about there being a right to have grievances heard and redressed by the government? Is that the US? All western countries? Constitutions? Common Law? Where does that come from?

First amendment to the US constitution. I think you're confusing that with the "right of reply" though which actually isn't a right but more of a sop thrown by certain media publications entirely at their whim.

No. I can see how what I said could have come off that way, but actually I was thinking about the legal thing, being able to complain to the gov't about shit and having them have to address it (even if just to answer, no). The two are actually kind of related on a philosophical/principle/conceptual level. Basically, it stems from a concept of fairness. But I wanted the legal one because we're now (well, actually, I'm still behind, so this discussion is now old-ish (hours old, anyway)) discussing policy and process on Nugent's A proposed agenda... post.

Thanks for the info.

[Phil_Giordana_FCD]

200 Phil_Giordana_FCD March 19, 2013 at 8:33 pm

@192:

I’ll state it again:

“I’m here to disagree with people who think dialog is useful or valuable or those who believe reconciliation is a worthwhile goal.”

You are, for all intent and purpose, a troll. If not, why would you even post here? You disagree that dialogue is useful or valuable, and you don’t think reconciliation is a worthwhile goal. Are you one of those Brony’s “ninjas”? Well, if so, you failed at boot camp.

I see where you're coming from, Phil, but now that I'm starting to 'get' their mindset, I can read your comment from dt's point of view, and, given dt's preconceptions which are wrong, but dt doesn't realize that), your comment comes across as definitely false. dt thinks of him/herself as an atheist (or theist) visiting a neutral thread crowded by theists (or atheists) and is posting his/her mere disagreement. dt has no interest in 'converting' to theism/atheism, and is just there to defend the POV that these theists/atheists need to be disagreed with to marginalize them and dismiss them, throw them overboard.

You see a troll because dt is clearly not interested in actually discussing ideas, is not really open-minded to the possibility that they could be wrong, and is basically spewing noise to try to disrupt the thread and perhaps 'ruin' it, as trolls sometimes manage to do.

You're closer to the mark, obviously, but without getting 'into' the mindset of dt, you'll have difficulty 'counter-trolling' or 'anti-trolling' as I have started to refer to it recently. For example, anti-trolling (which is what I'd call what I do on Nugent's threads; compare vs. counter-trolling which is how I'm responding to welch (and earlier how I was responding to Oolon a while back)) has the goal of disrupting the troll's tricks by de-escalating things so the troll doesn't know how to escalate, and so either has to stop trolling and have a conversation, or give up and leave the thread (compare counter-trolling, which franc is very good at, where you attempt to out-manoeuvre the troll, not be de-escalating, but by escalating in more subtle ways, to 'troll the troll'; technically the goal leads to the same overall result: troll untrolls, or just ups and leaves, but the overall process has the side-effect of dramatically escalating things in the thread (until the troll finally is defeated, which, in the case of PZ/Watson/Zvan/Benson, is never, because they have their own blogs)).

So, calling dt a troll won't be an effective anti-troll nor counter-troll, because it doesn't strike at the heart of what dt believes. You're swinging and missing, so to speak. Might work on a theist, but not a SJW like dt.

Too many "escalating" for my taste. I don't like escalators, I prefer elevators*.

For what it's worth, my comment was posted in a bit of an altered state (alcohol, no drugs), and dt's statement, as I quoted it, had my heart pumping more blood than necessary for a minute. How the fuck was that even useful to the conversation? He's here to disagree with people who think dialogue is useful? Maybe you can put that down to me being a foreigner, but I can't even really parse his statement. Does dialogue mean a back-and-forth, or does it have another meaning I'm not aware of?





*When you think of it, this might almost sound deep.

[rayshul]

It gets tiring to have women call for equal treatment and empowerment while at the same time claiming they are delicate little flowers that can't withstand anything.

This speaks badly of me, and makes me actually ashamed, but, FSM, sometimes I understand misogynists. If it wasn't for the sane women I know in real life and the sane women I know online (including the lady pitters), there are days I could easily slide into that mindset.
:oops:

I feel absolutely the same. Or would, if there weren't asshole men also going on about how women are delicate little flowers. UGhghgh.