Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

[Apples]

Yup. Me, too. Except, I spent most of my early career in a job where people shot at me.

I hear you. You're not going to get any edumacation or class snobbery from me. I actually noticed this tweet when she wrote it -- the context was that she did a panel with Crommunist who did a write-up calling her a "stealth intellect" (interestingly snobby backhand way of putting it, if you ask me) -- she then did a subtly self-congratulatory faux-humble blogpost about it, Simon tweets her in response saying "you're quite the intellectual ... and the intellect" and in this tweet IMO she's doubling down on some false-modest compliment-fishing.

[rayshul]

I have a question for y'all other Pitters.

What the fuck is up with America's obsession with "appropriate" language? Between feminists and christians, literally ANYTHING can piss off all kinds of precious little cunts. Are things as restricted in other countries? Is it ALL of human society, and why?

Anecdotally, I've lived in England, Ireland, Australia and New Zealand and have never experienced pushback for my language, which is littered with expletives.

When people enforce a particular kind of language on people it's usually an aggressive move to force someone into submission.

[rayshul]

Yup. Me, too. Except, I spent most of my early career in a job where people shot at me.

I hear you. You're not going to get any edumacation or class snobbery from me. I actually noticed this tweet when she wrote it -- the context was that she did a panel with Crommunist who did a write-up calling her a "stealth intellect" (interestingly snobby backhand way of putting it, if you ask me) -- she then did a subtly self-congratulatory faux-humble blogpost about it, Simon tweets her in response saying "you're quite the intellectual ... and the intellect" and in this tweet IMO she's doubling down on some false-modest compliment-fishing.

Interesting - I thought she worked in public policy. (Not sure where I read that, I've never been to her blog so I'm not sure.)

[nippletwister]

I lol'd

http://elevatorgate.files.wordpress.com ... 081910.jpg

All those "It was my privilege" paragraphs are about the funniest shit I have seen come out of all the drama. I want to do a youtube series, I just need to get some special effects or else train my penis to thrash wildly without using my hands.

[karlaporter]

I've gotta give EllenBeth Wachs props for going strongly against the tide and making some sense in the "Adria Richards is a perfect saint and martyr" thread at the 'Gulag:

http://i.imgur.com/GXNvcv6.jpg
http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/ ... ent-585430
http://www.freezepage.com/1363983718EHUDMAOGZW

How crazy are these unholy days of ours, when an Argentinian is elected the Pope and ElenchBeth Wachs is the voice of reason on a discussion?

THE END IS NIGH!

EllenBeth is right. Exactly right.

[nippletwister]

Spokesgay actually makes a good comment about employer-employee relations.

The most disgusting thing about this is that we’re watching a system chew up and spit out individuals for trying to exercise some little bit of control over something that the system has more power and responsibility to change. The overarching corporate, employer-employee, broader-society structure is shitting on all parties involved and those of you deriding Adria are doing exactly what it wants you to do: scapegoat the individual with limited power so that you ignore the failure of responsibility of the larger and more powerful structure.

In short, it’s exactly like ordinary working people shitting on welfare and food stamp recipients for “takin’ mah stuff’ instead of placing the blame on the inhuman corporate/work/healthcare system that fucks everyone.

Both Richards’ and the guy’s employers treated them outrageously. These companies fucked over individuals instead of stepping up to support both the employees and set an example of how to address this crappy behavior in professional settings. They could have acknowledged what happened and taken both Richards and the guy’s (I’m sorry, I didn’t see his name cited, maybe I missed it) efforts to right the wrong and used it positively.

Instead, the companies have evaded responsibility altogether by punishing individual people for reacting the only way single, individual people can. What the guy did was wrong, and he acknowledged it. Even though he’s trying to weasel out of some responsibility, think about it—how can we blame him? Any one of us who was instantly put out of work by a big company would feel reactive, scared, and defensive. I’m sure I’d be flailing about, too, and would probably place blame in the wrong place.

This is just what corporations want. They want Richards and the guy to see each other as enemies and as the real problem. They want onlookers to cast this as two rogue individuals, and for us to pick one as the hero and the other as the villain.

The outcome is that both people get punished in shamefully unfair ways by an opponent with far more power than they’ll ever have. Instead of using this as an example of how a bad situation can be solved while highlighting the societal problem with tolerating casual sexism, we get handed mallets so we can whack the prairie dogs who stick their heads up too far.

It’s disgusting.

Good catch! That is more reasonable than anything I've seen from spokesgay in quite some time.

Of course, I still take exception that he seems to honestly believe that what the guy did was truly blameworthy, and that twittering the complaint loud and public was the only thing Adria did wrong. He's still "picking a side", and for that matter so am I. There was an actual event of some minuscule kind, after all. But hey, for an entitled whiny ass like spokegay, not too bad, he still makes a real point and shows a hint of perspective.

[Apples]

I can see what happens with merely disagreeing here. It’s too bad.

http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/ ... ent-585608

http://www.dfer.org/custom_images/toldya.jpg

[16bitheretic]

One of Pharyngula's commenters takes aim at Ellenbeth Wachs:

kate_waters

22 March 2013 at 5:24 pm (UTC -5)

My facts? That you’re a victim blaming, misogynistic “chill girl” who lacks basic reading comprehension? The facts you yourself have presented in this very thread?

I’ve got them plenty straight. You’re gross. You’re icky. You’re a bumbling fucknugget who lacks basic decency and has no idea of how to behave properly.

Didn't we just get accused the other day of making up the "chill girl" slur usage as a strawman against the types of people who frequent FTB/Skepchick/A+ and other places?

[Apples]

Yup. Me, too. Except, I spent most of my early career in a job where people shot at me.

I hear you. You're not going to get any edumacation or class snobbery from me. I actually noticed this tweet when she wrote it -- the context was that she did a panel with Crommunist who did a write-up calling her a "stealth intellect" (interestingly snobby backhand way of putting it, if you ask me) -- she then did a subtly self-congratulatory faux-humble blogpost about it, Simon tweets her in response saying "you're quite the intellectual ... and the intellect" and in this tweet IMO she's doubling down on some false-modest compliment-fishing.

Interesting - I thought she worked in public policy. (Not sure where I read that, I've never been to her blog so I'm not sure.)

From her homepage: "Stephanie Zvan is an analyst by trade, but she's paid not to talk about it."

Whatever she does, it's super important and super secret like a ninja or an intelligence agent.

[Pitchguest]

Yeah, I figured I was going blind — or mad! — when I saw EllenBeth actually write something sensible for a change, and it is! It's very sensible! Very sensible indeed, very reasonable, and when you write something very reasonable on Pharyngyla it gets the usual degrading response. Typical. I love how they're even attempting to do some damage control. Brilliant.

Do you see, EllenBeth? Do you see now what we've had to deal with? Do you think maybe now you understand why we say the things we say about Pharyngula?

I hope this experience makes you see reason.

[Tigzy]

This FTB meltdown is masturbation material!

I, for one, am fapping right now. In fact, I'd go so far as to call it the hoggle of all hoggles.

[Pitchguest]

One of Pharyngula's commenters takes aim at Ellenbeth Wachs:

kate_waters

22 March 2013 at 5:24 pm (UTC -5)

My facts? That you’re a victim blaming, misogynistic “chill girl” who lacks basic reading comprehension? The facts you yourself have presented in this very thread?

I’ve got them plenty straight. You’re gross. You’re icky. You’re a bumbling fucknugget who lacks basic decency and has no idea of how to behave properly.

Didn't we just get accused the other day of making up the "chill girl" slur usage as a strawman against the types of people who frequent FTB/Skepchick/A+ and other places?

Well, it's obviously a Slymepit plant. Or it's franc hoggle with another sockpuppet. Just you wait.

I'm waiting!

[JackSkeptic]

My turn:

1. Atheist men wondering what they can do to change this dynamic: Start with not engaging in misogyny yourselves. Ex: http://bit.ly/16xrGQ8
   
   That's just a picture, not misogyny...if you are to sensible, don't go out and don't eat in public. This also count's for all man... just grow a thicker skin, or leave the internet. It's an impossible task to control it.
2. A safe space for women doesn’t mean you get to be nasty in explicitly misogynist ways to women who aren’t “on your team.”
   
   If you can't take a joke it is not my fault and please consider your self not in my team... your safe space is abusive to me, and hurts all efforts to expose real misogyny.
3. Also: Institute a zero-tolerance policy for misogyny in your comments. No slurs, no misogynist narratives, no questioning women’s agency.
   
   First they banned the word cunt, then they banned the world vagina... and than... we all startet to talk again about that gross little thing between our legs.
   And please, who on earth can question woman's agency? What does that mean? And why does it hurt?
4. Simply not having to encounter not being called a cunt in your comments sections isn’t good enough. My humanity isn’t a debatable issue.
   
   If your humanity is in danger by something someone said in a comment section, maybe it is not me who has a problem seeing herself as a human being. I never encountered someone on the forums I administered or took a part in, that questioned the humanity of someone.
5. Read this on why debating “women’s issues” as an abstract exercise is some rank bullshit: http://bit.ly/16xsCUC
   
   A random internetpage written by a feminist is nothing that I like to consider. Why not talk about human issues as an alternative. I think everyone should be included, not just women.
6. And read this on how to effectively and safely communicate with women about women’s issues: http://bit.ly/Ygajwt
   
   Don't occupy the word women, you feminists. This word is for all females of the humankind, not just you... and your very special feefees about what counts as safe... I'm deaf to propaganda.
7. Don’t play devil’s advocate. Let me reiterate that. DON’T PLAY DEVIL’S ADVOCATE. That is not compatible with a safe space for many women.
   
   Is the devil's advocate in this point, the same as questioning feminist dogma? Just asking...
8. Don’t appropriate or ignore women’s lived experiences. Let women be the experts on our own lives.
   
   The thing is my life as a woman does not exclude guys, I'm not a solipsist. My life is heavily intertwined with men, and I like their opinions and experiences.
9. Don’t treat women like a monolith. Or any subset of women. Not all atheist women think the same way about any issue.
   
   Could you do this to men too, please? Lead by example... and again, please don't count me as a woman to be one of your camp.
10. Don’t only listen to the women whose opinions support your perspective. If there is disagreement among atheist women, pay attention.
    
    s.o.
11. Recognize that there are privileged women in the atheist movement who may collude to marginalize non-privileged women (and men).
    
    The word privilege does nothing for or against me. It is an empty phrase... a boilerplate: something to often used to gain an unfair high ground of people just expressing an opinion. Maybe we should get rid of femi-speach first, which is full of loaded words to enforce misconceptions and used to get rid of opposition which just didn't get it...
12. Extend opportunities to women in your space — as contributors, as moderators, as guest posters. Support female atheists with links.
    
    Equal opportunity for everyone, but no extensions... I'm sick of woman needing special treatment.
13. CHALLENGE OTHER ATHEIST MEN ON THEIR MISOGYNY. Silence is not good enough. It isn’t neutral: It signals tacit support.
    
    If I find a misogynist, I will speak with him... but if a man says something offensive to you, he might have a reason and it might not be the case that he hates all women.
14. When you allow female atheists do the lion’s share of challenging misogyny, you’re reinforcing the narrative women are a “special interest.”
    
    Maybe you are reinforcing this, by requesting a special interest safe space for all women, even thou a lot of women don't need one?
15. Don’t accuse women of overreacting when we are merely reacting. Don’t accuse us of being oversensitive; maybe you are not sensitive enough.
    
    Yeah, men are not sensitive, we all now that. Maybe, if you would calm down a bit and don't faint or get into a hissyfit, you might learn that men are often quite sensitive and compassionate. But they show it in different ways, you know?
16. Don’t imagine that being a man makes you “objective” on sexism. It merely gives you a different perspective, not greater objectivity.
    
    Don’t imagine that being a woman makes you “objective” on sexism... and if you are a feminist it get's even worse.
17. Listen. Listen listen listen listen listen. Listen.
    
    Maybe someday, after listing for some years, you could shut up for a moment and let him have a word or to. Communication is not just one way.
18. And if you’re not willing to make the effort to make movement atheism more inclusive, don’t pretend that you are. Be a real ally, or don’t.

In short: You are either with us or against as, and there is no middle-ground... Fuck that shit.

I did it but it was not funny...
I'm embarrassed to share a gender with this people...

I absolutely hate the fact my gender and colour should be importation in anyway. That is why I am fighting this, it is deeply sexist and racist. Just switch women for man in the above and see how well that goes down. I am disgusted at a bunch of Narcissists who have found a bunch of gullible fools (like PZW) to buy into their delusions.

They are genuinely hurting people and it needs to stop.

[BarnOwl]

I can see what happens with merely disagreeing here. It’s too bad.

http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/ ... ent-585608

http://www.dfer.org/custom_images/toldya.jpg

:lol:

I had a 200 sq ft concrete-and-flagstone patio built onto the back of my house this week, and I noticed that hauling all that cement and local stone into the backyard, followed by the skilled assembly of said material into a patio, is kind of a guy thing.

[rayshul]

Interesting - I thought she worked in public policy. (Not sure where I read that, I've never been to her blog so I'm not sure.)

From her homepage: "Stephanie Zvan is an analyst by trade, but she's paid not to talk about it."

Whatever she does, it's super important and super secret like a ninja or an intelligence agent.

Whatever it is, I think she's veeery smart not to talk about it - I think it shows she's a great employee. You're not going to get not-hired for being an idiot on the internet (at least, not unless your boss is a dick) but you are if there's a sign you're going to talk shit about your employer or be a poor representative of the company. My online presence is a little risque but I get job offers on a regular basis via LinkedIn and other channels.

Can't believe I'm supporting Zvan on something but I think this is very canny and a good example of when or how to separate your personal from your work life.

[Apples]

One of Pharyngula's commenters takes aim at Ellenbeth Wachs:

kate_waters

22 March 2013 at 5:24 pm (UTC -5)

My facts? That you’re a victim blaming, misogynistic “chill girl” who lacks basic reading comprehension? The facts you yourself have presented in this very thread?

I’ve got them plenty straight. You’re gross. You’re icky. You’re a bumbling fucknugget who lacks basic decency and has no idea of how to behave properly.

Didn't we just get accused the other day of making up the "chill girl" slur usage as a strawman against the types of people who frequent FTB/Skepchick/A+ and other places?

In trying to acquit themselves of the charge that they used terms like "gender traitor, sister punisher, and chill girl" as terms of abuse for women who don't toe the feminist line, at Ophie's they carefully set aside chill girl (because it has actually been used quite a lot at FTB) and pretended it was just about the other two - "gender traitor" comes perhaps from Handmaids Tale? Not used sincerely, if at all, as far as I can tell. Sister punisher used earnestly by Melody Hensley a few times (at least once with Ophie's enthusiastic approval).

[rayshul]

I absolutely hate the fact my gender and colour should be importation in anyway. That is why I am fighting this, it is deeply sexist and racist. Just switch women for man in the above and see how well that goes down. I am disgusted at a bunch of Narcissists who have found a bunch of gullible fools (like PZW) to buy into their delusions.

They are genuinely hurting people and it needs to stop.

It is quite horrifying. When the words white and male are used as insults and ways to silence people, you know shit is real fucked up.

[16bitheretic]

This FTB meltdown is masturbation material!

I, for one, am fapping right now. In fact, I'd go so far as to call it the hoggle of all hoggles.

Sorry, all this masturbation talk was the perfect excuse for this:

http://i1322.photobucket.com/albums/u58 ... 12dc1f.gif

[masakari2012]

I suspect EllenBeth is influenced to that position because she's sympathetic to conference-organizers, but I agree with her. Now I must go throw up and take a bath, because agreeing with her makes me feel nauseous and dirty.

[CommanderTuvok]

Didn't we just get accused the other day of making up the "chill girl" slur usage as a strawman against the types of people who frequent FTB/Skepchick/A+ and other places?

Yeah, and to be more accurate, it was me who was laughably accused of "libel" by Ophelia Benson for pointing out the fact that it is/was used at B&W and FTB in general. No doubt they will continue to deny it in the face of overwhelming evidence.

[masakari2012]

Oh yeah, and to add to my previous comment, she might be influenced because of her prior dealings with the law, where she may be sympathetic to people being unfairly presumed guilty. She should apply this more often.

[Apples]

Can't believe I'm supporting Zvan on something but I think this is very canny and a good example of when or how to separate your personal from your work life.

I actually think Zvan is one of the smartest people at FTB, in terms of being a cunning and ruthless politician and propaganda artist.

[JackSkeptic]

"Adria Richards did everything exactly right."

Bwaaahahahahahahhaaaaaahahahaaa!!!!!

http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/ ... tly-right/

One day it will happen to him.

It's a shame when a scientist, or educator in Science , gets so deluded he does not even bother checking the facts that ere easily available.

PMZ has become what he despises.

[16bitheretic]

Didn't we just get accused the other day of making up the "chill girl" slur usage as a strawman against the types of people who frequent FTB/Skepchick/A+ and other places?

Yeah, and to be more accurate, it was me who was laughably accused of "libel" by Ophelia Benson for pointing out the fact that it is/was used at B&W and FTB in general. No doubt they will continue to deny it in the face of overwhelming evidence.

I'm, sorry, but my vagina tells me that despite all the alleged words you posted, due to your pseudonymous forum name I am only capable of seeing your post as a series of rape threats and misogyny.

[CommanderTuvok]

http://i.imgur.com/43evHse.jpg

If that is inappropriate, then doxing people most certainly is. Are you listening Greg Laden?

PS - Notice the moronic appendage to his name?

[Zenspace]

I liked this blog post http://codebetter.com/johnvpetersen/201 ... ommentary/

Thanks, that is a very good post. I found this part particularly interesting:

Next question..
Does the guy who got fired have a cause of action against Ms. Richards?

This is the part you want to pay attention to as you should think very carefully about the consequences of tweeting something that is private and further, identifying specific people where harm could come to them. First, did these two guys have a right to say what they said, no matter how stupid it was? Yes, they had a right. There is such a thing as a First Amendment last I checked. It’s also not illegal to be stupid. Did the guy who got fired, his employer, have a right to fire him? If he works in an employment at-will state, the answer is yes. Is he totally out of luck? No.. He can sue Ms. Richards for Tortious Interference with an Employment Relationship. She knew and intended a certain level of a negative outcome to these two gentlemen. That’s malice. While his employer may be on good ground to fire him, he can nevertheless sue Ms. Richards to recover damages. There may also be a cause of action on defamation grounds. These two guys are being labeled as sexists when all that may have happened was a joke, off color as it may have been, that offended this one person. That too may be the basis of a cause of action.

Next question..
Is there any other entity that could be liable?

As SendGrid has already admitted, Ms. Richard’s was there in her capacity as a representative as a SendGrid Employee. Ms. Richard’s did not do SendGrid any favors when she tweeted that she had SendGrid’s full support – a claim that SendGrid didn’t dispute. In the law, there is the legal doctrine of “Respondeat Superior.” It effectively means that the master is liable for the actions of his agent. Ms. Richards has a large Twitter following and that is due in least in part to her former job as a developer evangelist for SendGrid. There’s a strong argument to be made that SendGrid is liable, at least in part, for Ms. Richard’s actions – regardless of the fact that they terminated her services.

Interesting liability implications for anyone practicing call-out culture.

[Tigzy]

What gets me is that on that Pharyngula thread, some commentators are actually saying that Adria is getting vilified for calling out 'harassment'.

Seriously? Two guys talking to each other and mentioning 'big dongles' and 'forking' is harassment? I mean, maybe it's a UK thing, but 'big dongle' and 'forking' are the kind of verbal dollops that irritatingly twee daytime maestro Alan Titchmarsh would come out with. they're nothing. They're barely crude. Altogether, It's the sort of thing that would make the blue-rinse and doily set go, 'Oh, Alan, you're so naughty, tee-hee.' I mean, it's just so laughably innocuous. Where the fuck did Adria and those babs talking about it on FTB get the idea that it's harassment?

I mean, fuck, if you're making EBW look like the sane one, then maybe it's time, at last, to check your imbecility.

[16bitheretic]

LOL I got a new twitter follower: Richard D. Ongle :lol:

[BarnOwl]

New "heavily moderated" loungesque thread at the Court of the Crimson-arsed Baboon:

I figure we can all use an extra lounge-type open thread this week, seeing as, well, everything. Consider this Heavily Moderated, as PZ might say. The picture above is Thistle, my rabbit who died a year ago today after a long and adventurous life. Despite being dead, he will be aiding me in moderation as he can still kick miscreant butt. It’s good practice for his War on Easter.

[Zenspace]

http://xaxor.com/wp-content/uploads/201 ... -buy19.jpg

I see your soup and raise you a soda!

http://atheiststoday.com/images/softdrink.jpg

I see your soda, and simply raise you....

http://cdn.smosh.com/sites/default/file ... a-dick.jpg

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mavegfuwvG1r0d1l5.jpg

http://files.myopera.com/Zaphira/albums ... %20pop.jpg

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lt4msrsGmy1qctkcl.jpg

http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/ ... 627208.jpg

Note to self: never, ever fuck with Al. :lol:

[Percentage]

Hmmm, interesting.

http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/ ... ent-584364

Is Peez getting a little worn down by the SJW guilt-centered identity politics? It looks like it, a little bit, even if he'd never admit it.

I mean in the end, he's an old straight white middle-class able-bodied male in academia. Now, he's also PZ Myers, so he's allowed in the clubhouse, but it must suck to be constantly denigrated and stereotyped based on things you have no control over. Which is of course the supreme irony of SJWism; they engage in far more shorthand generalization than mainstream society does. It's just at the expense of acceptable targets.

[CommanderTuvok]

http://i.imgur.com/MNnEUzk.jpg

Wait a minute! A Lie? Why, that would be LIBEL, wouldn't it? I await to see the concern and gnashing of teeth from Ophelia, Steersman and Wonderist.

Don't all rush at once.

[katamari Damassi]

Predictably, Zvan is defending Adria's actions:

Politics everywhere you look in this situation, from start to finish. There are going to continue to be politics as long as professions are considered to belong to one gender or another and that perception is enforced using sex and gender as weapons. And as long as the workplace and professional events remain political battlegrounds, we have every right to talk about this in public.

Take it private, my ass.

It looks like Zvan might have difficulty in the future finding employment as well. Like I said, I wouldn't want to work with someone who resolves conflicts with a "callout culture" mentality and nor would I hire someone like that if I was a manager. Nor would I feel comfortable going to a conference with people like Zvan or Adria in attendance (especially if they have a hand in controlling conference policy). They would create a stuffy and hostile work and/or conference environment where we would constantly have to walk on eggshells in fear of being publicly attacked by overreacting ultra-pc drama queens and ideologues. This is far more hostile environment than a place where you'd hear the odd sexist remark every now and then. It's good that people like Watson, Zvan and PZ are boycotting conferences like TAM. TAM is better off for it.

I hope a lot of people get to see PZ and Zvan's comments in support of Adria. If there are many people on the fence in this schism, I think their opinions would help push a lot of people off the fence and onto the anti-FSA+ side (other than radfem ideologues, of course).

Isn't Zvan one of the feminists who insisted that conferences needed anti-harassment policies? Now many online feminists(McEwan being one of them)are saying that Richards had to go public because when women confront men or take their complaints up the chain of command, nothing gets done. So why have these policies in the first place if their useless and never to be utilized?

[Jan Steen]

http://xaxor.com/wp-content/uploads/201 ... -buy19.jpg

I see your soup and raise you a soda!

http://atheiststoday.com/images/softdrink.jpg

I see your soda, and simply raise you....

http://cdn.smosh.com/sites/default/file ... a-dick.jpg

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mavegfuwvG1r0d1l5.jpg

http://files.myopera.com/Zaphira/albums ... %20pop.jpg

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lt4msrsGmy1qctkcl.jpg

http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/ ... 627208.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/A96ulKe.jpg

[katamari Damassi]

Isn't Zvan one of the feminists who insisted that conferences needed anti-harassment policies? Now many online feminists(McEwan being one of them)are saying that Richards had to go public because when women confront men or take their complaints up the chain of command, nothing gets done. So why have these policies in the first place if their useless and never to be utilized?

Fuck! Grammar fail. "Their" should be "they're".

[Pitchguest]

So apparently everyone is made a "target" on the Slymepit. Caine says so.

But I'm curious, when did we "target" Caine again?

Anyway. Someone called kate_waters is having a temper tantrum against EllenBeth, JAL something-or-other is throwing his/her toys out of the pram, and the rest are being pants-on-head retarded. There's two- no, THREE- people being reasonable in there, Matthew Best, evangelineclaire* and, to my great surprise, EllenBeth Wachs. I did not think I would write reasonable and EllenBeth Wachs in the same sentence any time soon, but there it is. Is the world coming to an end? Did the Mayans skip a year?

It's also extremely amusing to see erikthebassist completely double down and grovel for forgiveness.

*oh, it was Eucliwood - huh. Sneaky, Eucli!

[JackSkeptic]

Fact free post of unilateral support for Adria Richards at Shakesville. The men are now serial harassers and it would've been dangerous for Richards to confront them, etc...

Yet another reason why I never want to have anything ever to do with these Wachs-jobs: they will quite happily make stuff up out of the whole cloth to justify their prejudices, no matter who else gets hurt and how much they get hurt. They are truly maximalists, and if they had the brains and opportunity (and weren't such cowards) some would be terrorists too. Look up the mindset behind Lenin and Bolsheviks of his ilk to see what lurks in these twisted brains.

Plus, they are completely without humour. I'd pity them if they weren't so loathsomely destructive.

If you strip away the ideology, I think you're left with pure solipsism. They are genuinely convinced that nothing, nothing other than their feelings Privilege and Entitlement is legitimate.
Ordinarily that would merely make them people who should be diligently excluded from one's own life. Unfortunately, there is the added, potentially lethal, ingredient that they explicitly seek to have the coercive power of the state used to protect them and their divine emotions from any ill. That's where it becomes a fight.

See the bolded changes. It's just not a matter of feelings. Because I honestly don't think a lot of this stuff affects their feelings one bit. It's about power.

Looking up Narcissism and it's symptoms explains a lot. It does not apply to them all but the concept it's' 'all about me' with no concept of how other people feel is telling. So they do the 'pretend' feelings thing as they do not know how to actually do it, they are copying others or interpreting it for themselves with no genuine emotion.

Those of us with empathy find this very difficult to grasp. I know I do.

I've said this before but I actually feel sorry for them. Life must be hell when you have no ability to feel genuine emotional responses and are unable to understand why people react to you the way they do.

[Wonderist]

Okay, finally back to 'catching up' at Nugent's.

Note: To avoid distraction, I won't be reading here until I get basically caught up at Nugent's. I want to be caught up enough so that when his next thread comes out I can just start engaging there. So, I'll be non responsive for a bit. After that, I will attempt to catch up here, and I will try to respond to comments directed at me or related to the overall Nugent thread exchange. So, please comment with feedback, but don't expect an immediate reply. I don't know how long the whole thing will take, but I have the whole weekend off, so ...

Reason for all this: As I've mentioned on previous comments, related to 'foundationism', I have a lot of ideas about how to (basically) solve a lot of the issues that are being brought up. Up until now, I haven't had any place to really 'get them out there' and discuss them, so they are not as fleshed out as they should be. Hopefully this whole interaction with Nugent and the SlymePit will mix well with some of my ideas, and we'll be able to brainstorm some *actual* real solutions -- at least to the most important problems. If you have doubts or criticism, please please say so, and give details if you can.

Caveat: There's no need for "That'll *NEVER* work!" kinds of comments though; as with Oolon trolling, or welch trolling, that simply will have zero effect on me. So if you have *very strong*, visceral-type objections to anything, please let me know how strongly you feel, but please also realize that we can *still* discuss the issues. I know for certain that many/most of my ideas would be outright rejected this way on FTB, and I'd be banned as a pedantic troll. Here, instead, if you find me a pedantic troll, just ignore me, and I won't pursue it. For most people, however, I don't think there will be all that much visceral-type reactions. That's why I'm doing this here rather than somewhere else.

Again, this is just brainstorming, trying to provide a fresh supply of ideas to work with, to make some progress with Nugent. Note I don't say 'progress with FTB'; it's up to *them* to come to the table; we can't force them, obviously. I believe that *some* more-reasonable minds will eventually see what's going on at Nugent's with our brainstorming, consensus-building efforts, and will start to dip their toes in the waters. That's how we will eventually attract honest participants from most-if-not-all relevant parties. Again, *all* feedback is extremely welcome, especially negative feedback, but positive/neutral too.

more to come...

[Tigzy]

But I'm curious, when did we "target" Caine again?

Well, I did once refer to her as Pharyngula's 'permanently outraged mother-sow'. So maybe she spotted that. I dunno. *shrugs*

[Wonderist]

PS: If I'm doing something dumb in my comments (like not putting in the right links, or anything at all) have someone send me a message on FB: https://www.facebook.com/wonderist. I'll check periodically. Or PM here, but I've tended to miss those, as they are not as obvious, so that's less reliable. Again, I won't be reading here until I'm caught up at Nugent's.

[ReneeHendricks]

Ok, you know it's a weird fucking day when *ELLENBETHWACHS* gets burned on a PZMyers blog!!! You have to check out his crap on Adria Richards (yeah, I'm not posting a link - too fucking lazy).

[Percentage]

Isn't Ellen Beth Wachs a manager/organizer or some sort? That's probably where this comes from. She's aware of how quickly things can turn into a clusterfuck if you don't use proper channels when it comes to this stuff.

I'm actually not sure I agree with her, though... like I said, Richards shouldn't have publicly tweeted about it, but at the same time it wasn't that public... she just @'d the PyCon twitter account, and they dealt with it. She could have handled it better, but again, the only reason this is any kind of a thing at all is because the guy's employers decided to be pricks. I still say that's on them.

Still, +1000 respect points to Wachs for challenging the freethinking hivemind.

[Stretchycheese]

"Adria Richards did everything exactly right."

Bwaaahahahahahahhaaaaaahahahaaa!!!!!

http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/ ... tly-right/

One day it will happen to him.

[snip]

It probably already has in a few cases.

Callout culture is endemic to the feminist blogosphere. By ideological extension, the FTB/Skepchick/A+ (FSA+) crowd imported it (the witch-of-the-week phenomenon we see from them, for example). It's not surprising that so many people are turned off by them for this tactic.

I found a good blog post that talks about the destructiveness of callout culture. She observes many of the behaviours that we often see exhibited from the FSA+ crowd as well.

http://offbeatempire.com/2012/10/liberal-bullying

Increasingly, I've started recognizing this kind of behavior for what it is: privilege-checking as a form of internet sport. It's a kind of trolling, with all the politics I agree with, but motivations and execution that turns my stomach. It's well-intended (SO well-intended), but when the motivations seem to be less about opening dialogue about the issues, and more about performance, righteousness, and intolerance for those who don't agree with you… well, I'm not on-board.

BUT. But. Seriously, I'm just not down with:
-The derailing of conversations to debate semantics
-The need to process it all publicly (look at me look at me look at meeee! I am the very MOST aware of my privilege and am therefore the very BEST progressive on the entire internet!)
- The righteousness
- The intolerance and inability to respect that those who share your values might not share your opinions on this particular subject
This is where this kind of conversation begins to feel more like liberal bullying, where the only correct response is agreeing and acquiescing. Any other response is seen as ignorant at best, hateful at worst.

In the bolded part above, we're seeing this precisely this in real time with the EllenBeth drama at PZ's blog.

[masakari2012]

Aw fuck, I said "I agree with her". I should have said I partially agree with her. I meant to say that at the time. Doh!

[Percentage]

Holy shit, that Shakesville post is fucking hilarious! Yes, kids, suddenly Adria Richards was a "victim of harassment", "bullying behavior", and "harassing fuckwads". For overhearing a "dongle" joke.

GodDAMN, and I thought PZ was hysterical.

[tina]

Nerd of Redhead
22 March 2013 at 6:46 pm
Bla bla bla ........"Your opinion is negated with another opinion, and then refuted with many other regulars opinions. Get it?"

Er.....run that by me again. Does she come from Craggy Island?

[JackSkeptic]

Ive noticed the employer vs employee dichotomy. However, those that work around her would probably be safer with her gone. Never know when you just might be the next person she chooses to make an example of.

If she were a client of mine I would no longer act for her as that would put my other clients at risk. Employment would be out of the question. She is dangerous as she lacks judgement and integrity as well as being someone who thinks nothing of exploiting the good will of others for personal gain. Her initial problem with the guy was valid if questionable. From there she showed every indication that she is not someone I would want to know or associate with in any capacity.

I feel people like her do a lot of damage to genuine social issues.

[Wonderist]

First kudos for today goes to Aneris! Wow, amazing comment. So much good analysis and ideas: http://www.michaelnugent.com/2013/03/20 ... ent-204043

Too long to copy/pasta, but here's a teaser:

Hey Michael, another thanks for your ongoing efforts! I like to get away from abstractions and go through actual *example* cases. I’ll put the links below so everything is out in the open. Call me out when I got something wrong.

“How to Make a Misogynist” An example case. In a video(1), Thunderf00t comments on the Young Turks co-host Ana Kasparian and discusses how her looks might affect her work: We have a person of the skeptical/atheist community that looks into sexism and gives his opinions. PZ Myers picks it up(2) and frames Thunderf00t as a sexist. His commentariat follows the usual script: Thunderf00t becomes one of those misogynists that allegedly want to preserve a status quo of white men in charge (overall narrative). Quite unexpectedly, Ana Kasparian herself recorded an affirmative response(3) to Thunderf00t, where she thanked him as someone who is exactly not what Pharyngulanhas claimed. Oops.

Irony Interlude I: Curiously, the only white privileged man I know who actively doesn’t want a female speaker at a conference is —well, well— PZ Myers: “I will not participate in any conference in which Abbie Smith is a speaker. If I’m invited, and later discover that she is also invited, I will politely turn down the offer”(4).

Notes:

The concreteness of the examples is very powerful. It takes research and analysis, but it's worth the time to do it, because it *completely* bypasses the endless circling of "Well they said such and such" "But you're all misogynists" etc. which is unspecific, open to misinterpretation, miscommunication, and is generally a waste of time. The more concrete context, the better. Basically, when presenting these kinds of cases, we are acting like lawyers presenting a case. Could you imagine if lawyers just argued back and forth in the court-room the way we (all) usually argue in comments? :oops: ;)

Ideas from that: Courts have procedures and standards of evidence. We kinda need to have this kind of thing built into our process of 'reasonable discussion' from the start. I'm guessing many of you will have lots and lots of ideas about that topic, eh? :think: Of course, we don't want to overdo this, or we'll end up trying to re-invent the court system. We only need 'good enough' solutions, not perfect ones. What's the minimal requirement about standards/concreteness of evidence for two or more people to agree upon, in order to have a reasonable dialogue?

Other stuff from this comment: The way Aneris breaks down the process of PZ's echo machine, it kind of reminds me of a nerve cell or something, where PZ is the nerve, and he goes "Ouch! So and so said such and such, aren't they bad?" and this triggers another cluster of nerves, his commentariat, and they all start chattering, morphing and evolving that initial statement, until it becomes a really nasty, contagious meme among them, and then they spread that meme all around FTB and elsewhere. It's really like a meme-blasting megaphone. Or, biologically, it's like PZ catches a cold virus and 'sneezes' out a billion cold viruses out of his 'nose' (commentariat). "Achoo!" lol Well, it would be funny, but his memes harm people and their reputations.

To see Pharyngula as a complex entity, the nerve-triggering-nervecluster, or the virus-being-sneezed-out, or however you want to visualize/conceptualize it. PZ's only part of that system. He's 'in control', but he needs the cooperation of his nose, or nothing will really happen.

Aneris makes a fascinating point about 'the right insult'. Where certain insults are okay, and the horde use them relentlessly. But use the *wrong* insult, and BAM, you're the enemy.

This *soooo* reminds me of insider-outsider jargon used by many cults. Also reminds of 'shibboleth'. It is a way of not only *distinguishing* insider from outsider, but of *enforcing* insiders with social pressure to conform to whatever the current shibboleth pattern is. Many cults re-define words so that they no longer mean what they mean to people outside the cult. I *really* would recommend not making the mistake of calling our opponents a cult, though. They sometimes use cult-like tactics, but making the case that, "Actual, definite cult" is almost impossible to make without it backfiring badly. Don't go there, IMO. Still, there are some clear similarities in some tactics and organizational structure. We shouldn't just completely ignore this information.

[Submariner]

Some observations from the FfTB Dongle thread:

for Aneris: The scout-

thumper1990

22 March 2013 at 1:06 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

@EllenBeth Wachs

I have not seen one person saying Adria deserved the response she got.

No, but there are many people mansplaining away about how completely unfair it was on the men while completely disregarding her, and banging on about how she shouldn’t have done what she did and making that their focus, so at the very least there are many people lending tacit endorsement to the response she got.

Let me make a prediction. Donglegate will be going on two years hence and people will be screaming for Adria’s head and photoshopping her.

From the (thankfully) little I know of the Slymepit and their cohorts, I would not be even remotely suprised. And that really does make me a bit sad.

I’m going to be honest, I’m not sure who you’re supporting here… Or are you being “nuanced”?

Some strange Sally shite:

360
SallyStrange

22 March 2013 at 2:37 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

Rebecca Watson.
Anita Sarkeesian.
Zerlina Maxwell.
Now Adria Richards.

Who am I missing?

This is becoming a thing.

Yes is is Sally. I'm trying to help stop it by opposing this onerous brand of "feminism".

And finally; Ellen Beth "gets it" now. :

439
EllenBeth Wachs

22 March 2013 at 4:32 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

Seriously??? Are you reading the same responses from Matthew Best that I am?

They are quite coherent and rational in the face of blistering vitriol. WTF?? Why are you calling for his banning? Because he disagrees?

[Stretchycheese]

From Kate Waters:

EllenBeth:

You asked her multiple times? How many times did it take for her to finally say “no”?

You’re so fucking blind to how horrible you are. This isn’t the first time you’ve pulled this kind of shit, is it?

EllenBeth:

Fuck right the fuck off you fucking fuck. Go organize a “d00dbro” friendly conference somewhere far away, would you? I’m sure there’s thousands of douchecanoes who would welcome your toxic brand of “rationality”.

And Martin at Furious Purpose thinks we're the ones with a "message of hate"?

[JackSkeptic]

I've gotta give EllenBeth Wachs props for going strongly against the tide and making some sense in the "Adria Richards is a perfect saint and martyr" thread at the 'Gulag:

http://i.imgur.com/GXNvcv6.jpg
http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/ ... ent-585430
http://www.freezepage.com/1363983718EHUDMAOGZW

How crazy are these unholy days of ours, when an Argentinian is elected the Pope and ElenchBeth Wachs is the voice of reason on a discussion?

THE END IS NIGH!

I agree with EBW it sets a very, very dangerous precedent.

[JackSkeptic]

I was thinking to myself the other day, I used to find some quality post in Pharyngula, every now-and-then, but then I started reading the babboons at al. and also, paying attention to the PC-shit that PZ would comment as a sidenote on the post. You know, his liberal of feminist narrative. The way he would deal with honest brookers (recently, Noel Plum) and that shit stuck with me.

Then I realized that for a couple of months I was under the impression that PZ had not written anything of value, but that can't be because even if he is a mediocre science blogger, he can't be just full of shit for months and month and months.

This is why I unlurk today. I'm a though and speech libertarian, even if in every other respect I tend to be a moderate. But cost-benefit analysis is always a consideration. Pitters like Al, and even biased negotiators like Mick Nuggent raise the bar in this joint. If we can continue to argue, even unpopular opinions, but keeping the quality of the argument high, more visitors will see that there is a false narrative working. They may still condenm the pit, but under their terms and not on the propagandists version.

I may not de-lurk frequently, but me and other people are watching. One more annecdote, you pile of mysogynist-rapist-wifebeater & chillgirls-gendertraitor-sister-punishers. The same shift in opinion I had after I visited your individual blogs. e.g., Franc and Welch's are great. PZ et al don't understand that they are your publicity agents. IRONY.

Fuck You All!

Welcome:)

[codelette]

Russell Blackford saying that EBW is getting flak from FTB...and the Pit...huh?!

[tina]

598

EllenBeth Wachs
22 March 2013 at 7:29 pm
@Stacy, thanks for the assist. I apparently am the devil today here and can’t do or say anything right in commenters eyes. No worries. This “chill girl” won’t be back. You’ve ensured that.


Oh hai Ellen. Cheezburger or puppies or chocolate?

[Al Stefanelli]

598

EllenBeth Wachs
22 March 2013 at 7:29 pm
@Stacy, thanks for the assist. I apparently am the devil today here and can’t do or say anything right in commenters eyes. No worries. This “chill girl” won’t be back. You’ve ensured that.


Oh hai Ellen. Cheezburger or puppies or chocolate?

No, not 'The Devil' EllenBeth. I believe the term you are looking for is 'Witch.' You're in good company.

[Wonderist]

296 John C. Welch March 21, 2013 at 3:52 am

Dan L. @ 279:

John C Welch@278:

Well, that’s your side and a little bit vague. How do we move forward from there?

Well, first, be consistent? If you (nonspecific) say to me “I really have a problem with the use of the word “bitch”, don’t turn around and say it’s okay for *you* to use it “ironically” and slag me for using it regardless of how I use it. If someone really doesn’t like a word, I’ve zero problems with that. I may not *agree*, but I don’t have a problem with it. However, if the person claiming to really dislike a word starts using it even semi-regularly because “it’s okay when I do it”, then fuck that, it’s okay when *I* do it too, and I stop caring about their “objections”. If it’s okay for you to moderate your site, it is not wrong for you to BE moderated on someone else’s.

Be consistent. Apply the standards you demand of others to yourself, and when you don’t meet them, don’t justify it.

That’s a great start.

http://www.michaelnugent.com/2013/03/20 ... ent-204044

Now *this* is interesting because it's very similar to welch's earlier points (or it's the same, and I'm just noticing this now), but he talks about 'consistency'. This is *similar* to our issue with *hypocrisy*, but instead it's phrased as a personal choice or personal value, rather than as a negative criticism of *someone else*. In other words, it's a self-reflecting, inward pointing concept, rather than outward-pointing. This would fit nicely with Nugent's point about 'choosing to lead by example', and my own thoughts about trying to find core principles and values to 'build up' one's personal worldview/philosophy/whatever.

So, for example, one switch of tactics we might want to try is instead of *just* saying "hypocrite!" we can also say, "we value consistency, and we think you should too, because X, Y, and Z". The end result (if both worked equally well in all circumstances) would be the same. But I doubt they both work equally well. In fact, I think we all know that they wouldn't. The more approaches we experiment with, the better our chances of making progress.

Don’t dissemble, omit, or otherwise dance away from the truth. If you say “That is a ball”, be pointing at a ball, not a Mack Truck or an airplane. Don’t call things “a” when they are actually “b”."

We value truth and honesty, and the ability to face unwanted truths. We dislike succumbing to personal biases and the use of fallacies in discussions.

His comment includes several more examples of these kinds of values/principles which could/should be gathered, condensed, summarized, prioritized, etc. into a minimalistic set of principles/standards for reasonable dialogue. Here's the rest, but I'm going to skip, in the interests of moving on:

Don’t arbitrarily change the meaning of a word so that you can use it in a way other people don’t, and then claim it’s someone else’s fault for not realizing what you were doing.

Don’t use guilt by association to poison the well, then cry when someone else uses it on you.

Don’t assume that just because I disagree with you, I hate you, want you dead, or harmed. Maybe what I disagree with is minor, even to me. Disagreement is not attack, nor does it require for someone to be wrong.

Don’t go out of your way to twist people’s words so you can dismiss what they have to say.

stuff like that. None of this is hard, but it is necessary.

[CommanderTuvok]

This is funniest FTB meltdown since PZ screwed up McWrong's poll. In fact, it way surpasses that.

[JackSkeptic]

Zvan chastises EBW for failing to recognize the Oppressors:

Stephanie Zvan
22 March 2013 at 4:24 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

EllenBeth, stop. You’re defending the politically powerful (the conference organization) from the politically powerless (the attendee) here. You’re in the position of demanding something you can only, rightfully, ask for because of the rest of the context of the situation. This is a very bad time and place for that.

So... Deep Rift 2.0?

EBW is telling it how she sees it and instead of discussing it she gets dogpiled and sent off to a 'Correction Centre'

To me it does not matter if she is right or wrong it is the complete lack of free and open discussion that dismays me. We see this time and time again and that was my main focus at Nugent's as to why I was against SJW's. Not their politics, but their compete dismissal of people's right to speak without censure and rejection. That is a LOT more important to me than a few swear words or inappropriate comments.

They have created a philosophy which shuts down free speech while, like religion, is impossible to falsify. It sucks in the weak and the needy, the gullible and the demagogues. It gives a delusion of adequacy to the Dunning-Kruger's of this world and those who are fooled by their own intellect. It uses vague terms without clear definition and is the antithesis of rational and skeptical thinking. It appeals to the easily bullied and the 'lets all just get along' brigade who's ability to not see malice is only matched by their gullibility and desperate and pathetic need to please those who are abusing them.

One of my favourite videos which I assume most of you have seen: (ps sorry for the rant)

[youtube]jyoOfRog1EM[/youtube]

[Submariner]

They have created a philosophy which shuts down free speech while, like religion, is impossible to falsify. It sucks in the weak and the needy, the gullible and the demagogues. It gives a delusion of adequacy to the Dunning-Kruger's of this world and those who are fooled by their own intellect. It uses vague terms without clear definition and is the antithesis of rational and skeptical thinking. It appeals to the easily bullied and the 'lets all just get along' brigade who's ability to not see malice is only matched by their gullibility and desperate and pathetic need to please those who are abusing them.

Damn Jack, that was beautiful. If it were a bit shorter I'd sig it. Bravo sir, bravo. :clap: :clap:

[Altair]

It is far easier to move forward when everyone is working together. She and I both think that if we stop treating rape as some exclusionary "women only" issue, and start taking it seriously for everyone because it affects everyone, then maybe things stand a better chance of improvement.

Do I think this is some magical fix? No, but if that kind of approach can improve things even a little, maybe help people communicate better, it's worth a shot. Best part is, no one is disenfranchised.

Thanks a lot for the detailed clarification, Welch, it was indeed a more complex conversation that what it seemed to me originally.
Again thank you for taking the time to write that, respect to you and your friend.