Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It
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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It
The skeptic’s sky isn’t falling either - Sharon Hill
http://idoubtit.wordpress.com/2013/03/3 ... ng-either/
http://idoubtit.wordpress.com/2013/03/3 ... ng-either/
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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It
This "rhetorical assassin" stuff I've seen makes me giggle. I couldn't resist:Aneris wrote:you know Rhetorical Assasin level
http://i1322.photobucket.com/albums/u58 ... e56cc2.png
Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It
!!! Bold emphasis mine. Whats more, by monopolizing certain views while being assholes, they make it less likely that people adopt reasonable and good ideas, or worse, feel they must subvert the assholes for what they are, thereby indirectly subverting the good ideas.16bitheretic wrote:Lousy Canuck:
Oh yes, you get criticized or someone quoting you in a non-flattering fashion is totally the time for you to just randomly toss out the "why do you hate women" meme or one of it's variants.Why don’t these assholes try finding a thing that I’ve said about feminism, about rape, about anything else, and actually arguing against the points presented, instead of trying to defame my character in order to fragment FtB and poison the well against women speaking up about harassment? Why is the idea of more than one feminist leader posting to a blog network so scary to them that they have to attack a blogger on said network by attacking another blogger on said network and trying to play the one against the other?
Because that totally doesn't come across as you using women as pawns to make yourself look good, like the noble protector who is under attack when he defends us fragile things, and that by proxy any criticism aimed your way is criticism aimed at all the possessors of the XX chromosone. Please bear the weight that us poor womenfolk cannot Jason :roll:
Ugh, I'm soooo sick of this shit. I've ranted about this sort of thing before, but I'm tired of people who are more about self promotion and/or preservation trying to parade as noble defenders of women while portraying any criticism that they personally receive as misogyny or promotion of harassment. It's the rhetorical equivalent of using women as a human shield to deflect criticizing opinions, and it's just as demeaning IMO as someone promoting a genuinely misogynist viewpoint. This sort of thing, along with outrage over dongle jokes or how Princess Zelda is used in a videogame from 15 years ago is making instances of real oppression of women in the world go unnoticed because the attention is being diverted to noisy non-issues and frivolous complaints that make women's equality movements into a running joke.
But I guess if women are nothing more than a human shield to block internet criticisms to you and your blogging friends, then whatever I have to say is irrelevant.
Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It
Probably; my mistake.Apples wrote:I believe Andrew was objecting to the idea of a "PZ gay porn photoshop," which AFAIK has never, ever been posted at the 'Pit. I'm sure someone will correct me if I am wrong.Steersman wrote:Quite right. As Lily Tomlin probably said, “not tastefulâ€. Not to mention shading over into ad hominems .... and certainly not much in the way of trenchant or relevant satire ....AndrewV69 wrote:Do not do this. OK people? Please?
That was something that Mykeru posted sometime ago and called it the “Laden-Svan sex tapeâ€:And the reason I reposted the silly dog-cow gif was that there was chatter, at Zvan's, I believe, in the wake of her "NSFW" post, about "sex tapes" posted at the 'Pit. Again - AFAIK - nothing of the sort has ever been done.
[Note: the above link takes you to the next page (#464 instead of #463) – at least it does on my machine and browser]Meanwhile: the newly leaked Laden-Svan sex tape:
Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It
Let's face it. The FTB Commentariat are all Rhetorical Assassins. Their ninja-like abilities are so good, they are invisible.16bitheretic wrote:This "rhetorical assassin" stuff I've seen makes me giggle. I couldn't resist:Aneris wrote:you know Rhetorical Assasin level
http://i1322.photobucket.com/albums/u58 ... e56cc2.png
Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It
Justin claims it is an attempt to turn PZ on him and that it poisons the well for female rape victims. Why did he publish the comment?
Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It
Fair trade?Lsuoma wrote:BTW, I have just got back from urgent care - I was using a mandoline to slice potatoes for a dinner party this evening, and fuck me if I didn't slice a pad of flesh about 7mm in diameter off my right thumb. Only the second time I've ever had to have detached parts of my body sewn back on. First time was a bone and skin graft about four years ago, and that was planned.
This one bled like a fucking motherfucker! Needless to say, we had to get some new potatoes on the way home, and I'm off cooking duty and on booze duty.
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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It
Hmm, let's guess. For hits?SurpriseGuest wrote:Justin claims it is an attempt to turn PZ on him and that it poisons the well for female rape victims. Why did he publish the comment?
______
I submitted this at Lousy Canuck; presumably it's now in his mod queue:
Hi, everyone.
@PZ #1Wait…she [Skep tickle] listened, & all she took from it was 1 or 2 sentences which she then misinterprets to mean I’m forever denying the possibility that a woman might make a false accusation? Nonsense. I’ve been threatened with a false rape accusation, one that could have totally destroyed my career. I took it very seriously and moved quickly to provide evidence that it was false. But of course we have to accept the personal testimony of women’s experiences. In that case, it would have been totally injust to simply say, “oh, she’s a woman, therefore she’s lyingâ€.
If you go to the post that was linked in the OP here, you'll see my full quote, which included:I expanded a bit on this in a subsequent post:He [PZ] imparted, in a very serious tone, the edict that we all have to accept, and I quote, "the personal testimony of women" when they say they are harassed or raped. (It sounded to me like he was equating harassment with rape, but perhaps I misunderstood his intent or his words in those 1-2 sentences.)
I was tempted to ask during Q&A whether he thought that we should also accept other "personal testimony", for example that of theists, but that seemed low priority in the scheme of things. (Besides, did you think he'd say, "Oh, right! Good point.")
To clarify, I'm happy to accept anyone's "personal testimony" - but only as their report about their personal experience, obviously not as a reliable way to make a factual determination, including regarding any other person's intent (which "harassment" pretty much implies).I may have "misinterpreted"; obviously that's always a risk. But I was relaying my experience as someone listening in the audience, and of course the listener can only take away what the listener takes away, not what the speaker intended to convey.…A person's "personal testimony" reflects the relayed event as the person experienced it, or more accurately as he/she remembers having experienced it, including the emotions associated with that experience. It is THE way we find out what someone feels about an event.
"Personal testimony" could definitely POINT TO evidence that might exist about the event that others might look for (& possibly find). But "personal testimony" does not prove that an event happened, or that it happened the way the person remembers it, especially what another person's intent or thinking was.
In particular, everyone should be cautious about taking "personal testimony" as evidence of 'harassment". It could be that observers might have seen miscommunication, misunderstanding, difference in assumptions on the part of the 2 people. ...
I was not the one who initiated mention of harassment or "the personal testimony of women" onstage at PZ's talk. That was completely his choice. He sort of tossed it in during his talk or the Q&A, but it wasn't in response to an audience question about harassment. I don't remember exactly how it did come up, but it was clear that it was something PZ felt important to initiate advice to us (to atheists, with us being the audience at that moment) about. …
"Imparted" and "edict" and "tossed it in" were the terms I chose to use; "said" would have been more neutral.
"Very serious" and "it was clear that..." reflect my impressions as a listener.
Clearly, others who were there (including PZ), or those who later watch the video, might disagree with any or all of those characterizations.
But I never said one should "simply say, 'oh, she’s a woman, therefore she’s lying'" - in fact, I think we can all agree that "oh, [that person] is a [identifying characteristic other than "liar"], therefore [that person] is lying" is blatantly erroneous and unjust, AND that women seem to have been more likely to face that assumption than men or other specific groups.
And I did not say that PZ meant that investigation might not turn up evidence that the claim of harassment was false - however, he did not follow up his statement on stage that 'we all need to accept the personal testimony of women' with any indication about what role investigation and evidence might play, or with any indication as to a limit to this acceptance.
Particularly on an issue that has at times resembled dynamite in the A/S community, leaving the 200 people listening in the audience to each come to their own conclusions about where the speaker draws a line about something about which he has just made a broad exhortation, can't effectively leave listeners with accurate information about the speaker's position (and with a fuller sense of the advice he's giving).
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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It
That squabble over at Thieb's place has the whiff of Baboon manufacturing victimhood, again.
I bet it is someone who is a Baboon, or a close follower of the Baboons, hoping that they can use this to tar Arnie and the Pit Crew.
I bet it is someone who is a Baboon, or a close follower of the Baboons, hoping that they can use this to tar Arnie and the Pit Crew.
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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It
Sort of a 'mandoline rain' as it were.Lsuoma wrote:BTW, I have just got back from urgent care - I was using a mandoline to slice potatoes for a dinner party this evening, and fuck me if I didn't slice a pad of flesh about 7mm in diameter off my right thumb. Only the second time I've ever had to have detached parts of my body sewn back on. First time was a bone and skin graft about four years ago, and that was planned.
This one bled like a fucking motherfucker!
Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It
They certainly haven’t been in much evidence in that “Structure and dedicated website†thread of Nugent’s .... and the leader of the guild – Brony – has been conspicuous by his absence; maybe he was unhorsed – so to speak – when someone provided evidence, as he asked for, that PZ bans people simply for posting here ...Aneris wrote:Let's face it. The FTB Commentariat are all Rhetorical Assassins. Their ninja-like abilities are so good, they are invisible.16bitheretic wrote:This "rhetorical assassin" stuff I've seen makes me giggle. I couldn't resist:Aneris wrote:you know Rhetorical Assasin level
http://i1322.photobucket.com/albums/u58 ... e56cc2.png
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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It
I, too, really enjoy your posts, 16bitheretic & Aneris.Aneris wrote:!!! Bold emphasis mine. Whats more, by monopolizing certain views while being assholes, they make it less likely that people adopt reasonable and good ideas, or worse, feel they must subvert the assholes for what they are, thereby indirectly subverting the good ideas.16bitheretic wrote:Lousy Canuck:
Oh yes, you get criticized or someone quoting you in a non-flattering fashion is totally the time for you to just randomly toss out the "why do you hate women" meme or one of it's variants.Why don’t these assholes try finding a thing that I’ve said about feminism, about rape, about anything else, and actually arguing against the points presented, instead of trying to defame my character in order to fragment FtB and poison the well against women speaking up about harassment? Why is the idea of more than one feminist leader posting to a blog network so scary to them that they have to attack a blogger on said network by attacking another blogger on said network and trying to play the one against the other?
Because that totally doesn't come across as you using women as pawns to make yourself look good, like the noble protector who is under attack when he defends us fragile things, and that by proxy any criticism aimed your way is criticism aimed at all the possessors of the XX chromosone. Please bear the weight that us poor womenfolk cannot Jason :roll:
Ugh, I'm soooo sick of this shit. I've ranted about this sort of thing before, but I'm tired of people who are more about self promotion and/or preservation trying to parade as noble defenders of women while portraying any criticism that they personally receive as misogyny or promotion of harassment. It's the rhetorical equivalent of using women as a human shield to deflect criticizing opinions, and it's just as demeaning IMO as someone promoting a genuinely misogynist viewpoint. This sort of thing, along with outrage over dongle jokes or how Princess Zelda is used in a videogame from 15 years ago is making instances of real oppression of women in the world go unnoticed because the attention is being diverted to noisy non-issues and frivolous complaints that make women's equality movements into a running joke.
But I guess if women are nothing more than a human shield to block internet criticisms to you and your blogging friends, then whatever I have to say is irrelevant.
Totally agree w/ above, esp with bolded line. There are very real issues that are receiving short shrift while all this energy goes into minor slights in the first world.
FWIW, I see physical suffering and premature death around the world as a much more pressing issue than women's rights even in fundamentalist societies, not that that's not a horrible situation (and of course in some cases it includes physical suffering & premature death for women, or women & children). I'm outraged at how many people lack clean water, enough food to prevent starvation much less have adequate nutrition, and have access (on multiple axes: cost, availability, acceptability, etc) to basic health care including preventive services such as vaccines and condoms. I've done only a little personally to work on this issue (one trip to Guatemala, where I concluded that the money it had cost to ferry a bunch of Americans there could have been better used to improve the local infrastructure & hire local people to do the work we did for 10 days). But it's where I focus my donations, through a payroll deduction donation to several international organizations.
I used to consider physical suffering and premature death due to socioeconomic iniquities, political corruption, and war to be a "social justice" issue. Silly me. Like 'feminism' my understanding of that term has been forever tainted.
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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It
(should be "lack access" not "have access")
Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It
Is anyone else skeptical of PZ's claim that he was threatened with a rape accusation? I need more details such as who they were to him. Maybe he's just trying to put himself on Thibeault's level because of what he said about the person posting on his blog. Neither of them really act someone who was threatened first hand with a false rape accusation, especially Jason. If he only brought it up in a situation that would give him "Look at me! I was accused and I still support assuming a female is telling the truth!" points, I'll give his claim a second thought too. That, combined with how he thinks and acts on the subject of false rape accusations, would make him even more likely than PZ to be bullshitting. What sort of person is accused of it themselves and is still chill on the subject, going "Naw. That doesn't really happen. It's an MRA trope that MRAs are deliberately pushing with ill intent. It can't be due to people actually being accused of rapes they never did."
Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It
SurpriseGuest wrote:Is anyone else skeptical of PZ's claim that he was threatened with a rape accusation? I need more details such as who they were to him. Maybe he's just trying to put himself on Thibeault's level because of what he said about the person posting on his blog. Neither of them really act someone who was threatened first hand with a false rape accusation, especially Jason. If he only brought it up in a situation that would give him "Look at me! I was accused and I still support assuming a female is telling the truth!" points, I'll give his claim a second thought too. That, combined with how he thinks and acts on the subject of false rape accusations, would make him even more likely than PZ to be bullshitting. What sort of person is accused of it themselves and is still chill on the subject, going "Naw. That doesn't really happen. It's an MRA trope that MRAs are deliberately pushing with ill intent. It can't be due to people actually being accused of rapes they never did."
Given the high rate of occurrence of such things at FTB, it's kind of hard for him to claim it doesn't happen.
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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It
They are so brutal to their 'friends and allies'. Their tactics are simply not sustainable.ERV wrote:
They dont have friends. They have tools. You throw away a tool when it 'breaks'. EBW 'broke' so she got tossed, like everyone else who confused our relationship as their 'friends'.
John was referring to the Shakesville vs PZ dustup, but I think the theme works as a general description of how they operate. I slapped it on this gem from deviant art.John Brown wrote:
The revolution always eats itself.
http://i.imgur.com/Ro62Pvl.png
Ouroboros is hungry. Who's the next Witch of the Week? They're running low on
(I've used a few nyms here before, can't remember all of them but I didn't stay long. No link baskets or off-fuckings necessary.)
Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It
Rewatched 'Waynes World'--Parody Accountant wrote:They are so brutal to their 'friends and allies'. Their tactics are simply not sustainable.ERV wrote:
They dont have friends. They have tools. You throw away a tool when it 'breaks'. EBW 'broke' so she got tossed, like everyone else who confused our relationship as their 'friends'.
"PZ is no ones friend. If PZ were an ice cream flavor, hed be pralines and dick."
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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It
Welcome Parody. I saw/chatted with you on Brave hero/Atheist Experience.
Now fuck off.
Now fuck off.
Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It
Seems legit to post them here...
[youtube]h9DkK06zZ_o[/youtube]
[youtube]h9DkK06zZ_o[/youtube]
Slymepit fundraiser for Muttville Senior Dog Rescue
update to this post: http://www.slymepit.com/phpbb/viewtopic ... 158#p80157
[attachment=0]love a senior.jpg[/attachment]
we now have an official Slymepit fundraiser link:
Slymepit fundraiser for Muttville Senior Dog Rescue
[youtube]7OLQnKr_sh8[/youtube]
any amount will make a difference. please help them
[attachment=0]love a senior.jpg[/attachment]
we now have an official Slymepit fundraiser link:
Slymepit fundraiser for Muttville Senior Dog Rescue
[youtube]7OLQnKr_sh8[/youtube]
any amount will make a difference. please help them
- Attachments
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- love a senior.jpg
- (29.13 KiB) Downloaded 265 times
Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It
When you say there is a large number of unreported cases, are you referring to female victims of rape?Aneris wrote:Not helping. We know that false positives exist and that any system will be abused. However, there is a large number of unreported cases than the other way around.Reap wrote:Hey PZ Myers you fucking inept dick, what about when this happens?
http://www.ksbw.com/news/central-califo ... index.html
Just glad she didn't try to pin it on anyone. It's bad enough the irresponsibility and disrespect she has already displayed.
If so, where is your evidence for that?
Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It
QFTGuestheist wrote:I guess, since we don't live in a perfect world, the presumption of innocence for rape should be the standard, like for every other fucking crime, ever.
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Re: Slymepit fundraiser for Muttville Senior Dog Rescue
Done.sacha wrote:Slymepit fundraiser for Muttville Senior Dog Rescue
any amount will make a difference. please help them[/b]
I hope you lot feel guilty now.
You know how to assuage that feeling.
1) Get Drunk
2) Donate
Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It
did the party continue as planned with a blood-spattered kitchen, and bits of flesh hanging off of the mandoline?Lsuoma wrote:BTW, I have just got back from urgent care - I was using a mandoline to slice potatoes for a dinner party this evening, and fuck me if I didn't slice a pad of flesh about 7mm in diameter off my right thumb. Only the second time I've ever had to have detached parts of my body sewn back on. First time was a bone and skin graft about four years ago, and that was planned.
This one bled like a fucking motherfucker! Needless to say, we had to get some new potatoes on the way home, and I'm off cooking duty and on booze duty.
Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It
Oh, oh. Seems I’ve pissed in Welch’s corn-flakes (i.e., guilty of not thinking he’s infallible); batten down the hatches everyone (incoming DDoS) – nothing like wounded pride to trigger empty bluster if not hurricanes ....welch wrote:I bet no one asks your opinion much, do they?Steersman wrote:"Parody is making a new wine that tastes like the old but has a slightly lethal effect.â€Phil_Giordana_FCD wrote:How in the whole wild [world] would you think this is an accurate depiction of Laden/Svan? Parody, we talked about this before, right?Steersman wrote:And how is that supposed relationship relevant to Apples’ comment?welch wrote: <snip>
I dunno. It captures the essence of the laden-svan relationship rather nicely.
Besides which, have you actually seen or made any case that the two relationships are in anyway analogous? Or is that just your spleen talking?
Don’t see how that makes it less of an ad hominem which, according to the Wikipedia article on the topic, works by the “halo effectâ€:
Lots to criticize Zvan and Laden over, and one might reasonably argue that Zvan’s stated friendship with Laden has somewhat corrupted her judgment in that and related circumstances, but trying to attack that relationship and thereby them, particularly in the absence of evidence, doesn’t look particularly credible or admirable to me.Thus, if you can attribute a bad trait to your opponent, others will tend to doubt the quality of their arguments, even if the bad trait is irrelevant to the arguments.
Oh, pedantic time: No you moron, it's not an "ad hominem" to liken a dog vainly trying to fuck a cow to Laden/Zvan. It would only be an ad hominem if that image was used as a reason to dismiss their arguments. It's rude, it's probably mean, and it is definitely immature, but in and of itself, it is not "ad hominem" you unctuous pain in the ass.
I will readily concede that, as you said, “in and of itself it is not ad hominemâ€, but I did say “shading over into ad hominems†for a reason. Which is that while arguments here rarely take the classic “ad hominem†form of, for example, “You should not listen to my opponent. He wants to sever the Danish church from the state for his own personal sakeâ€, the effect of many is the same.
And in the context of the many quite justifiable and credible criticisms, I think, of Zvan and Laden presented here, those “sex-tapes†seem to rather pointedly suggest that any arguments either of them present in support of each other should be deprecated because of that implied relationship. In a word or two, “poisoning the well†– aka, “a special case of argumentum ad hominemâ€. Rather much along the same line as my earlier comments about the supposed mechanism of “ad hominemsâ€, i.e., the “halo effectâ€.
In any case, it is curious and somewhat amusing that you didn’t actually do much to address that argument, but instead relied heavily on various insults – “moronâ€, “unctuous pain in the assâ€, “hyper-pedantic twats†(my personal favourite; that’s a keeper) – in an apparent attempt to “poison the wellâ€, i.e., present an ad hominem argument.
YMMV ....
Re: Slymepit fundraiser for Muttville Senior Dog Rescue
love you, MKGMichael K Gray wrote:Done.sacha wrote:Slymepit fundraiser for Muttville Senior Dog Rescue
any amount will make a difference. please help them[/b]
I hope you lot feel guilty now.
You know how to assuage that feeling.
1) Get Drunk
2) Donate
Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It
There is already a reply and a reply to that, linking to the dedicated thread. Go there and present your case, if you have one. Regarding statistics, here you go.sacha wrote:When you say there is a large number of unreported cases, are you referring to female victims of rape?Aneris wrote:Not helping. We know that false positives exist and that any system will be abused. However, there is a large number of unreported cases than the other way around.Reap wrote:Hey PZ Myers you fucking inept dick, what about when this happens?
http://www.ksbw.com/news/central-califo ... index.html
Just glad she didn't try to pin it on anyone. It's bad enough the irresponsibility and disrespect she has already displayed.
If so, where is your evidence for that?
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Re: Slymepit fundraiser for Muttville Senior Dog Rescue
sacha wrote:update to this post: http://www.slymepit.com/phpbb/viewtopic ... 158#p80157
[youtube]7OLQnKr_sh8[/youtube]
any amount will make a difference. please help them
[youtube]1rPJtxuz8cU[/youtube]
Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It
Oh, to be fair Steph. I still haven't fully read it. I was watching this documentary about people living in the sewers of Bogota. My eyes just automatically glaze over when trying to read through Lousy Canucks complaint.Apples wrote:Stephanie Svan has posted at Thibby's:
Um .... we didn't "assign any responsibility" to Strawkins for what? For mentioning something that Jason had published that was relevant to the subject at hand that may have been picked up by some yahoo troll in Alabama? Fuck off, Stephanie.Zvan wrote:It’s very sweet. The reaction to this post in the pit has been great indignation that someone would ever try to smear a fellow human being this way. The immediate response was, “Unholy fuck! Whoever did that is a complete and utter asshole!â€
Oh, wait. My bad. That was the reaction from various people to Rebecca tweeting a link to the post.
What happened in the pit is that someone said they couldn’t understand the post. Someone else got indignant that Jason would post the IP. Someone else said that the commenter wasn’t an atheist because when they looked up the IP and zoomed in, they found a church at that intersection (as opposed to the plumbing business you find using this IP-lookup service). Someone else reassured everyone that no actual responsibility accrued to the pit because everyone there is an individual. They didn’t assign any responsibility to the person who was trying to use Jason as a talking point there, of course.
As for "great indignation that someone would ever try to smear a fellow human being this way" -- the whole fucking point of the conversation here was that you have to use skepticism in order to tell the difference between smears and the truth (as opposed to believing things simply because they are said by a woman because feminism and rape culture) -- because everyone with a pulse knows smears are pretty fucking bad -- something that you and your buddies might consider keeping in mind the next time you accuse someone of being a "harasser" or a misogynist.
What you really hoped -- because you are at least as ruthless as anyone who has ever posted at the 'Pit -- is that you'd find someone celebrating the troll's accusation or suggesting it was true. Not finding that, you were forced to pretend it's the 'Pit's fault people all over the world think Jason is a douche. Most laughably stupid is the notion that you'd expect people here to say "oh, poor Jason - he had to look at his moderation queue and deal with a nasty troll" after the hostile post he wrote.
But thank you Stephanie (and Jason) -- by "monitoring and harassing" the 'Pit this way you prove just how self-serving and dishonest your (and Ophelia's) conception of "harassment" really is and just how willing you are to smear people you don't like. Good luck in the coming discussions, Steffy -- you're going to need it.
Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It
cunt wrote:
Oh, to be fair Steph. I still haven't fully read it. I was watching this documentary about people living in the sewers of Bogota. My eyes just automatically glaze over when trying to read through Lousy Canucks complaint.
You could always read some of the classics. I hear "Mobye Dickke" is being serialized over at FftB. I just realized today that he does Ophelia one better. He has whole posts that are nothing but copypasta - he doesn't even add a "this". I guess Ophie still has things to learn.
But I agree with you on Canuck (and quite a few others there). My brain goes to sleep when trying to read them, so I usually skim until my neck hurts from all my head shaking. Generally no more than a few sentences.
Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It
Sasha, they don't do paypal. :/
Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It
Oh fuck sorry Sacha. C for cunt, I know I know.
Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It
Badger3k wrote:cunt wrote:
Oh, to be fair Steph. I still haven't fully read it. I was watching this documentary about people living in the sewers of Bogota. My eyes just automatically glaze over when trying to read through Lousy Canucks complaint.
You could always read some of the classics. I hear "Mobye Dickke" is being serialized over at FftB. I just realized today that he does Ophelia one better. He has whole posts that are nothing but copypasta - he doesn't even add a "this". I guess Ophie still has things to learn.
But I agree with you on Canuck (and quite a few others there). My brain goes to sleep when trying to read them, so I usually skim until my neck hurts from all my head shaking. Generally no more than a few sentences.
Oh, i'm sure it's serious though. I'm making my serious face right now. I also watched a vice documentary about Liberian warlords who used to kill and eat children before going into battle. It's pretty good.
[youtube]ZRuSS0iiFyo[/youtube]
Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It
that's your answer? Google "rape statistics".Aneris wrote:There is already a reply and a reply to that, linking to the dedicated thread. Go there and present your case, if you have one. Regarding statistics, here you go.sacha wrote:When you say there is a large number of unreported cases, are you referring to female victims of rape?Aneris wrote:Not helping. We know that false positives exist and that any system will be abused. However, there is a large number of unreported cases than the other way around.Reap wrote:Hey PZ Myers you fucking inept dick, what about when this happens?
http://www.ksbw.com/news/central-califo ... index.html
Just glad she didn't try to pin it on anyone. It's bad enough the irresponsibility and disrespect she has already displayed.
If so, where is your evidence for that?
You stated there were a large number of unreported cases, and far fewer false accusations. I asked you if you were referring to female victims, and asked you to provide evidence for that assertion. If this has "already been discussed" and has it's "own thread" then I would think you could provide me with a link to your evidence. should be quite easy for you.
every single non-specific-incident discussion here has already been discussed, and was most likely covered two years ago and nearly identical discussions and arguments posted numerous times since then. I've been following the drama since 2009.
When you have been part of the anti-Baboon brigade as long as I have, you may also find dismissive hand waving from someone who joined 26 days ago splendidly amusing.
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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It
I have a hazy recollection of PZ writing something along those lines on Pharyngula in the distant past, pre-elevatorgate (PE).SurpriseGuest wrote:Is anyone else skeptical of PZ's claim that he was threatened with a rape accusation? I need more details such as who they were to him. Maybe he's just trying to put himself on Thibeault's level because of what he said about the person posting on his blog. Neither of them really act someone who was threatened first hand with a false rape accusation, especially Jason. If he only brought it up in a situation that would give him "Look at me! I was accused and I still support assuming a female is telling the truth!" points, I'll give his claim a second thought too. That, combined with how he thinks and acts on the subject of false rape accusations, would make him even more likely than PZ to be bullshitting. What sort of person is accused of it themselves and is still chill on the subject, going "Naw. That doesn't really happen. It's an MRA trope that MRAs are deliberately pushing with ill intent. It can't be due to people actually being accused of rapes they never did."
In those days such a statement would not have been anything out of the ordinary - a simple data point regarding a rare instance of false accusation (the inference that the accusation was false coming from the fact that: A, No indictment occurred, and, B, someone who actually did commit a rape is probably unlikely to bring up the incident in conversation without very good reason.
I am certainly not a fan of the kind of presumtive dismissal of rape accusitions as being a priori false, that is becoming common in MRA activism.
In response to Sacha's question about evidence for the levels of false claims compared to unreported rapes, I think it is reasonable to use anonymous surveys and police data to try to get a handle on this. It is a difficult question and probably impossible to answer completely correctly but it should be possible to get some kind of generalized figure for the prevalence of each type of incident.
What was surprising for me is that both Lousy and Peezus have admitted to being falsely accused. As I said, I'm taking their word for it (and it almost goes without saying that they would not afford me the same assumption, it would be "Rapist!" - as Peezus proved with his kneejerk accusation regarding Ed Clint)
Perhaps this is just a statistical blip, but doesn't it strike anyone else as weird, that despite claims that false accusations of rape are so rare, two prominent FTB male feminists have been falsely accused?
I've never been accused of rape. I don't even know anyone who's ever been accused of rape. Perhaps it's something that men tend to keep quiet about,for valid reasons; someone may maliciously claim the accusation was not in fact false.
The reason why the whole situation is bizarre to me is that Lousy and Peezus are inadvertently providing evidence that false accusations are more prevalent than I previously assumed!
Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It
what!? for fuck's sake!rayshul wrote:Sasha, they don't do paypal. :/
I'll sort that out by tomorrow.
Thank you for attempting to donate, and for making me aware of the bloody fucked up system. I'll contact the donations director tomorrow morning, and have it sorted by the evening (PST time)
I appreciate the realisation of the C as in cunt... you get a pass, luv... but just one pass.
Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It
I agree with Dick Strawkins, both thing happen, way too frequently, the false accusations and the rape dismissal. But from my research, the conviction rate for rape is similar to other crimes, but I could be wrong. It's been a long time.
Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It
I agree with Dick Strawkins, both thing happen, way too frequently, the false accusations and the rape dismissal. But from my research, the conviction rate for rape is similar to other crimes, but I could be wrong. It's been a long time.
Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It
I agree that may be the only way to even begin to have any idea of unreported cases, although I find it significantly flawed, and certainly not evidenceDick Strawkins wrote: In response to Sacha's question about evidence for the levels of false claims compared to unreported rapes, I think it is reasonable to use anonymous surveys and police data to try to get a handle on this. It is a difficult question and probably impossible to answer completely correctly but it should be possible to get some kind of generalized figure for the prevalence of each type of incident.
my questions were in regard to the declaration that "there is a large number of unreported cases than the other way around." stated as fact.
Anything I state as fact can easily be backed up with evidence, and if it turns out my evidence is flawed, I will be more than happy to withdraw my statement and give reasons for the withdrawal.
This is a sceptic/skeptic website and thread, after all.
Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It
Good read. Sharon (and Ed Clint which Sharon references) both make good points. I think it's very true that most people who don't get all their skepticism (or atheism for that matter) from blogs really know about all the drama. As well as the majority of people outside the US and UK don't seem to know much about it.justinvacula wrote:The skeptic’s sky isn’t falling either - Sharon Hill
http://idoubtit.wordpress.com/2013/03/3 ... ng-either/
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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It
I agree.sacha wrote:I agree that may be the only way to even begin to have any idea of unreported cases, although I find it significantly flawed, and certainly not evidenceDick Strawkins wrote: In response to Sacha's question about evidence for the levels of false claims compared to unreported rapes, I think it is reasonable to use anonymous surveys and police data to try to get a handle on this. It is a difficult question and probably impossible to answer completely correctly but it should be possible to get some kind of generalized figure for the prevalence of each type of incident.
my questions were in regard to the declaration that "there is a large number of unreported cases than the other way around." stated as fact.
Anything I state as fact can easily be backed up with evidence, and if it turns out my evidence is flawed, I will be more than happy to withdraw my statement and give reasons for the withdrawal.
This is a sceptic/skeptic website and thread, after all.
If anyone has a good data source, paper, survey result etc, that answers this question, could you link it here please.
Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It
Another one taken from the Undead Thread.
http://bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=pbdetail&iid=4594
http://www.rainn.org/get-information/st ... ting-rates
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_accu ... .281994.29
The range of false reports is considered in the 5—8%, the larger sample sizes go as high as ~20%, but see Rumney's comment below. The ten year study puts it near 6%. Unreported is 50% (conservative est.) and above! You have a hard time to close that gap.
There you go.sacha wrote:that's your answer? Google "rape statistics".Aneris wrote:There is already a reply and a reply to that, linking to the dedicated thread. Go there and present your case, if you have one. Regarding statistics, here you go.sacha wrote:When you say there is a large number of unreported cases, are you referring to female victims of rape?Aneris wrote:Not helping. We know that false positives exist and that any system will be abused. However, there is a large number of unreported cases than the other way around.Reap wrote:Hey PZ Myers you fucking inept dick, what about when this happens?
http://www.ksbw.com/news/central-califo ... index.html
Just glad she didn't try to pin it on anyone. It's bad enough the irresponsibility and disrespect she has already displayed.
If so, where is your evidence for that?
You stated there were a large number of unreported cases, and far fewer false accusations. I asked you if you were referring to female victims, and asked you to provide evidence for that assertion. If this has "already been discussed" and has it's "own thread" then I would think you could provide me with a link to your evidence. should be quite easy for you.
every single non-specific-incident discussion here has already been discussed, and was most likely covered two years ago and nearly identical discussions and arguments posted numerous times since then. I've been following the drama since 2009.
When you have been part of the anti-Baboon brigade as long as I have, you may also find dismissive hand waving from someone who joined 26 days ago splendidly amusing.
http://bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=pbdetail&iid=4594
http://www.rainn.org/get-information/st ... ting-rates
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_accu ... .281994.29
The range of false reports is considered in the 5—8%, the larger sample sizes go as high as ~20%, but see Rumney's comment below. The ten year study puts it near 6%. Unreported is 50% (conservative est.) and above! You have a hard time to close that gap.
Rumney's second conclusion is that it is impossible to "discern with any degree of certainty the actual rate of false allegations" due to the fact that many of the studies of false allegations have adopted unreliable or untested research methodologies
Your reply can go here — viewtopic.php?f=29&t=273&p=80611#p80611According to the American Medical Association (1995), sexual violence, and rape in particular, is considered the most under-reported violent crime.
Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It
"When you have been part of the anti-Baboon brigade as long as I have, you may also find dismissive hand waving from someone who joined 26 days ago splendidly amusing."Aneris wrote:Another one taken from the Undead Thread.sacha wrote: <snip>
that's your answer? Google "rape statistics".
You stated there were a large number of unreported cases, and far fewer false accusations. I asked you if you were referring to female victims, and asked you to provide evidence for that assertion. If this has "already been discussed" and has it's "own thread" then I would think you could provide me with a link to your evidence. should be quite easy for you.
every single non-specific-incident discussion here has already been discussed, and was most likely covered two years ago and nearly identical discussions and arguments posted numerous times since then. I've been following the drama since 2009.
When you have been part of the anti-Baboon brigade as long as I have, you may also find dismissive hand waving from someone who joined 26 days ago splendidly amusing.
Ad hominem? ;-)
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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It
Watch this space? http://www.skepticink.com/humesapprenti ... interview/
"Richard Carrier Interview" at Hume's Apprentice (at SIN) - dated March 30 - maybe just about to be posted? I see the title, and comments are open, but I'm not seeing the interview.
(Course the topic could be anything, but might include A+)
"Richard Carrier Interview" at Hume's Apprentice (at SIN) - dated March 30 - maybe just about to be posted? I see the title, and comments are open, but I'm not seeing the interview.
(Course the topic could be anything, but might include A+)
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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It
This amateur site wrongly conflates assaults with rape only, and makes bogus conclusions based on that fundamental error.
It is worth less than a sheet of used dunny paper.
It cites this report as "evidence" http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/vnrp0610.pdf
Which not once cites a rape-only figure, but combines rape and "sexual assault".
Which as the survey was self-reported renders the data utterly meaningless when determining unreported rape rates.
(The rest of the cites are egregiously worse as "evidence". I ceased analysis at this point, given the irrelavence of the supplied references versus the clear claims. This is wholly bollox "evidence", yet likely the best that you have, as you presented it on request. If it not the best, then why, pray tell, did you not present the cryptic evidence with a flourish? Or have you not yet finished desperately Googling "stuff" that appears to support your sweeping absolute claim?)
Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It
Not quite sure what explicit evidence there can be for the precise number of “unreported cases†– by definition they are unknown. Seems the only thing that is going to be available are the results of a survey asking some sample how many have been raped and have not reported it. Which seems to be what Aneris has provided.Dick Strawkins wrote:I agree.sacha wrote:I agree that may be the only way to even begin to have any idea of unreported cases, although I find it significantly flawed, and certainly not evidenceDick Strawkins wrote: In response to Sacha's question about evidence for the levels of false claims compared to unreported rapes, I think it is reasonable to use anonymous surveys and police data to try to get a handle on this. It is a difficult question and probably impossible to answer completely correctly but it should be possible to get some kind of generalized figure for the prevalence of each type of incident.
my questions were in regard to the declaration that "there is a large number of unreported cases than the other way around." stated as fact.
Anything I state as fact can easily be backed up with evidence, and if it turns out my evidence is flawed, I will be more than happy to withdraw my statement and give reasons for the withdrawal.
This is a sceptic/skeptic website and thread, after all.
If anyone has a good data source, paper, survey result etc, that answers this question, could you link it here please.
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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It
No.Steersman wrote:Ad hominem? ;-)
Now kindly fuck off.
Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It
Technically an Argument from authority. But it's okay. :DMichael K Gray wrote:No.Steersman wrote:Ad hominem? ;-)
Now kindly fuck off.
Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It
The preferable approach I think: trying to treat the symptoms of a disease tends to be less effective than addressing its causes.16bitheretic wrote:I'll chime in with my thoughts in the discussions, but I notice that my posts on feminism, language and rifts tend to operate on a sort of meta level, where I tend to want to discuss the root ideas behind something while most others tend to want to talk about specific and minute instances and events.Apples wrote:Excellent post - you'll be needed at the Great Debate.16bitheretic wrote:incisive things
Indeed. “Politics is the last refuge of a scoundrel†covers a large part of that, I think.16bitheretic wrote:In my opinion, the alleged support for women that I see from certain bloggers is akin to the support for "family values" that we see from religious right institutions that put the word family in their name to try and claim their detrimental activism is for the greater good of children and securing America's future and all the other shit they spew.Steersman wrote:Really sort of consistent with the demagoguery that Watson, in particular, exhibits quite frequently, the wrapping of oneself in the flag of feminism, the projection of her persona and identity onto the entire class of women, as if she, and many others, had said, in response to a personal criticism: “They can’t talk to us like that, Sisters! Onward! To the Bastille!â€
Don’t know if you saw this before, but it was, apparently, something that Paula Kirby did last August. It is a photoshop of an apparently well-known painting of the Crucifixion with the “usual suspects†– various FfTB / Skepchick / AtheismPlus bloggers and luminaries – surrounding some transmogrification of Christ. I had been wondering who or what might be the analogous theme or principle to Jesus there, but it seems that one might reasonably argue that it is the reification of “woman†– the ultimate in “objectificationâ€, with the implication being that that abstraction has, in effect, thrown the baby out with the bath water, that it has elided some important aspects of women and, by extension, men as well.16bitheretic wrote:I think if there's one criticism of certain people that I want to get out there today it's that if you are using the idea of defending or supporting women's equality to be your internet human shield to deflect attacks and statements aimed at yourself, then you are objectifying women or the idea of women just as much as any sexist or real misogynist does.
And it seems to me that a significant feature or principle of the more dogmatic, and problematic, if not virulent, forms of feminism is the belief that “gender is entirely a social constructâ€, and that those “important aspects†are our genetic inheritances, our natures. Steven Pinker in his The Blank Slate – highly recommended – develops that theme in some detail – there’s an on-line version here of Chapter 18 on Gender which is particularly apropos. But I think the book’s subtitle – The Modern Denial of Human Nature – is rather suggestive of the implications and consequences of that highly problematic elision.
Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It
After you, Alphonse .... dickhead ....Michael K Gray wrote:No.Steersman wrote:Ad hominem? ;-)
Now kindly fuck off.
Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It
There are three links, with many further studies. You can shoot 1 down. There are many more, including summaries in my native language I can also double check. In the thread I wanted to move the discussion to (because its there already), I linked to a british study with 2600+ cases, false reports are put near the 3% percent mark. And before I believe your judgement, I'd rather go with Steven Pinker, who apparently also used the data by the Bureau of Justice Statistics. In any case, everything I find anywhere, including british and other statistics in my native language point out that rape is one of the least reported crimes, you've got credible sources already. None (!) put false reports higher, not even remotely. Hence, my claim was true.Michael K Gray wrote:This amateur site wrongly conflates assaults with rape only, and makes bogus conclusions based on that fundamental error.
It is worth less than a sheet of used dunny paper.
It cites this report as "evidence" http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/vnrp0610.pdf
Which not once cites a rape-only figure, but combines rape and "sexual assault".
Which as the survey was self-reported renders the data utterly meaningless when determining unreported rape rates.
(The rest of the cites are egregiously worse as "evidence". I ceased analysis at this point, given the irrelavence of the supplied references versus the clear claims. This is wholly bollox "evidence", yet likely the best that you have, as you presented it on request. If it not the best, then why, pray tell, did you not present the cryptic evidence with a flourish? Or have you not yet finished desperately Googling "stuff" that appears to support your sweeping absolute claim?)
Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It
Ah, but the “appeal to authority†seems to be underwritten by the implication that the ethos – “the distinguishing character, sentiment, moral nature, or guiding beliefs of a person, group, or institution†– of the opponent doesn’t measure up to that of the person making the argument: an ad hominem one, particularly since the appeal is not to factual evidence but to longevity as a member .... other side of the coin, I think ....Aneris wrote:Technically an Argument from authority. But it's okay. :DMichael K Gray wrote:No.Steersman wrote:Ad hominem? ;-)
Now kindly fuck off.
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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It
If it is totally unreliable bollox, why did you quote it as supporting your assertion?Aneris wrote:You can shoot 1 down.
It is the first that I analysed in any detail, and it put me off reviewing the others, as it in no way supports your sweeping assertion.
Before I waste more time in analysing other so-called "evidence", I need to know why you slipped that bogus one in there.
Simple, one would have thought.
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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It
http://i.imgur.com/7MHWkvB.jpgERV wrote:
Rewatched 'Waynes World'--
"PZ is no ones friend. If PZ were an ice cream flavor, hed be pralines and dick."
Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It
The first one was by the U.S. Department of Justice, and your objection was dubious already. Their defininion of rape is just extremely strict and narrow, hence they lump it together with sexual violence. None of these maneuvers win you any points in the argument. If you want to discuss where sex begins and ends, you may call up Bill Clinton. :roll:Michael K Gray wrote:If it is totally unreliable bollox, why did you quote it as supporting your assertion?Aneris wrote:You can shoot 1 down.
It is the first that I analysed in any detail, and it put me off reviewing the others, as it in no way supports your sweeping assertion.
Before I waste more time in analysing other so-called "evidence", I need to know why you slipped that bogus one in there.
Simple, one would have thought.
Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It
Jesus fuck, what actually changes if the rate of unreported rape is above or below some arbitrary level? Oh, it's 5% not 10%, so change our strategy by 50%. Yeah, aspergers, why do you ask?
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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It
Listening now; enjoying it. Good stuff.justinvacula wrote:Live with Heather Henderson and Emery Emery at 8 Eastern/5 Pacific:
http://www.blogtalkradio.com/bravehero/ ... -henderson
Join the live chat, call in, and listen live!
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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It
If you ask me, nothing. I was asked to defend a claim I made on something else, and followed up on it, and asked, repeatedly, to lets move the shit to the dedicated thread.cunt wrote:Jesus fuck, what actually changes if the rate of unreported rape is above or below some arbitrary level? Oh, it's 5% not 10%, so change our strategy by 50%. Yeah, aspergers, why do you ask?
Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It
Yeah I know, but you're getting taken in by this weird line of argumentation. It doesn't matter, it never actually mattered. Are they against better police training and interview techniques? Against taking a possible rape victim seriously?
No, it's all bullshit focused on winning internet forum points.
No, it's all bullshit focused on winning internet forum points.