Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

[rayshul]

I think you'll find that there are multiple cultural uses of the word cunt that aren't limited to the British and US versions - plenty of other places it just means a "human" or it can be used as a term of endearment (a wee cunt) or a casual matey saying (you're a mad cunt).

[Michael K Gray]

yeah, how DARE those fucking morons not be up on modern drone warfare tactics. If you're THAT ignorant, you deserve to die.

How much time did you happen to spend in the military? Given the vast tactical and strategic thinkery you've displayed here, I bet you were a fucking general.

Your strategy amounts to let the Taliban know that carrying around a couple of human shields will grant them immunity from air strikes.

Victory is thy name.

That's what i thought. Chickenhawks are so easy to spot. The abundant enthusiasm for other people killing each other in spectacular ways, comfortable in their own safety is the first, best clue.

It is abundantly obvious to me when a bloviating ignoramus, such as decius, has had not a jot of serious education, experience, training, nor familiarity in tactical military engagement by which to achieve a clear pre-stated mission goal.
They cannot even coherently articulate said firm goal.
Both you and I have experienced decades of military command experience, and find it trivial to spot these dangerously uninformed bullshitters from well over the horizon.

"decius" is full of it. Overflowing, in fact.

You owe his silly notions no quarter.

[Dick Strawkins]

<snip>
The argument is maybe a little tenuous or untenable, but I figure that an analogy holds some water. As I suggested in that Atheist-Skeptic dialogue, although this part was moderated out, the debate phrased as this might be of some use:

Resolved: Calling someone a “cunt” is to a charge of “sexist” or “misogynist” as calling someone a “nigger” is to a charge of “racist”. Or, as calling someone an “asshole” is to a charge of “misanthropist”.

<snip>

Are you seriously trying to argue that referring to a black person as a "nigger" is not racist?

No, not exactly. I’m saying that if “cunt” is not sexist then “nigger” is not racist; if “nigger” is racist then “cunt” is sexist – at least in my book. By the same mechanism of using a supposed negative aspect of our physiology in a pejorative sense as a put down. The question is whether using that pejorative sense automatically applies to everyone who posseses that physiological feature, i.e., whether there is splash damage.

I would like you to take seriously my point about the agreed meaning of words being different in different countries.

I am, but my point is that just defining a word some particular way isn’t really sufficient – that slavery was legal in the US until 1865 hardly made it morally right – and even your British definition still defines it as “extremely offensive”, presumably for a reason. I think one needs to check underneath the hood and try to understand why and how various insults “work” and whether the basis is ethical or not. And your apparent argument that the British definition of a “stupid or annoying person” lets you off the hook looks rather disingenuous to say the least considering the root and etymology of the word. Even if the word is directed at a man, particularly in anger, it still seems very much on par with “nigger” in using a physiological feature in a pejorative sense.

Which still leaves open the question of splash damage, of whether the words are, respectively, sexist and racist, or just simply rude and crude insults of a single individual.

Are you on a sponsored non sequitur drive?

What is the connection between the morality of slavery and the meaning of specific words?
People on both sides of the Atlantic agreed what the word "slavery" meant.

Our argument here is over a disagreement over the meaning of words.

A more apt analogy would be the word "con" - the french term for cunt.

In France "con" means 'cunt'.
In the US (and the UK) it doesn't mean cunt, and is often used as a short form of the word 'conference' (hence it's use in SkepChickCon)

If, for example, a French person writes to the organizers of SkepChickCon and says they are offended by the use of an offensive word in the name of the conference, is it reasonable to think they have a point - that the organizers should change the name in order to prevent offense?

Or is the more reasonable argument that the organizers tell the offended French person that they are mistaken - "Con" is not an offensive word in the US and therefore they would be better educating themselves as to the agreed definition of the word rather than trying to impose their own definition on a word that the majority of US conference attendees define in a non French way?

As for the root of the word 'cunt'- it is an old English word meaning vagina.
The fact that a word for vagina is used as an insult is an irrelevant argument considering that words for all excretory body parts and excretions are almost universally used as swear words - (ass, prick, dick, twat, cunt, shit, piss etc).

I think you are in danger of mixing up two unconnected points -

1. the question of using swear words at all
and
2. Which swear word or epithet to use

In the UK, for example, 'cunt', like dick, or twat, is a swear word but is NOT an epithet for a group of people.
In parts of the USA it seems that it is both.

This contrasts with 'nigger' which is understood to be an epithet in both locations.

[Michael K Gray]

I think you'll find that there are multiple cultural uses of the word cunt that aren't limited to the British and US versions - plenty of other places it just means a "human" or it can be used as a term of endearment (a wee cunt) or a casual matey saying (you're a mad cunt).

We seem to have been through this culturally realistic stance time-after-time.
Yet some folk appear to actively wish to be parochial on this issue.
I wonder why?

"Cunt" can be, and is, used with deep and abiding true affection in Australia, at the very least.

How many times do we have to state this before it sinks into the, dare I say, 'Merkins brains that there is a big wide world beyond the confines of the USA, most of which the inhabitants are not so hog-tied by the USA magical non-thinking when it comes to the power of mere words to exact harm.

[rayshul]

I think you'll find that there are multiple cultural uses of the word cunt that aren't limited to the British and US versions - plenty of other places it just means a "human" or it can be used as a term of endearment (a wee cunt) or a casual matey saying (you're a mad cunt).

We seem to have been through this culturally realistic stance time-after-time.
Yet some folk appear to actively wish to be parochial on this issue.
I wonder why?

"Cunt" can be, and is, used with deep and abiding true affection in Australia, at the very least.

How many times do we have to state this before it sinks into the, dare I say, 'Merkins brains that there is a big wide world beyond the confines of the USA, most of which the inhabitants are not so hog-tied by the USA magical non-thinking when it comes to the power of mere words to exact harm.

Ah, the internet. It's scary to discover there are other humans out there. You know, it's my understanding that in some cultures it is offensive for a woman to display her legs in public, and in others it is deeply offensive to draw cartoons...

[Michael K Gray]

As for the root of the word 'cunt'- it is an old English word meaning vagina.

"Old English" has a precisely dated meaning.
In "Old English" vernacular, vagina was rendered as "queynte", and slowly re-spelled to its current form, especially after the great vowel shift. (Oooh, no missus. Titter ye not!)
The domain queynte.org is in my possession, should anyone feel an urge to acquire it.
(....ooh you're ahead of me there aren't you, you filthy lot!)

[rayshul]

I'm of course finding it hilarious that there's a conversation about genderised words and different contexts/cultures with someone whose psuedonym is Dick.

[rayshul]

I'm of course finding it hilarious that there's a conversation about genderised words and different contexts/cultures with someone whose psuedonym is Dick.

I wonder how you can have a conversation with someone who's called Dick or Fanny* without having to apologise for your sexism all the time.

*Fanny is a cunt in non-America, not a butt. OH GOSH. CULTURES.

[Hunt]

I think you'll find that there are multiple cultural uses of the word cunt that aren't limited to the British and US versions - plenty of other places it just means a "human" or it can be used as a term of endearment (a wee cunt) or a casual matey saying (you're a mad cunt).

We seem to have been through this culturally realistic stance time-after-time.
Yet some folk appear to actively wish to be parochial on this issue.
I wonder why?

"Cunt" can be, and is, used with deep and abiding true affection in Australia, at the very least.

How many times do we have to state this before it sinks into the, dare I say, 'Merkins brains that there is a big wide world beyond the confines of the USA, most of which the inhabitants are not so hog-tied by the USA magical non-thinking when it comes to the power of mere words to exact harm.

Why should this be any different than how we dictate your foreign and economic policy? Just stop it. Stop saying it right now. Full stop!

And you will watch our shitty movies.

[rayshul]

As a complete aside...

I did high school in Australia, where I went to the poshest rich-bitch school in the state (because that's how I roll). One of the first lessons we had was from the school nurse, who told us to stand on our tables and shout the word VAGINA out the window at the street below. The reasoning there was not to be afraid of your cunt and that there was basically nothing to be fucking precious about there: Your vagina is a functional piece of your anatomy like any other... Get over it.

I feel like this very Australian induction/introduction to being a woman might have been useful to several other women around the skeptic slopes.

[Michael K Gray]

As a complete aside...

I did high school in Australia, where I went to the poshest rich-bitch school in the state (because that's how I roll). One of the first lessons we had was from the school nurse, who told us to stand on our tables and shout the word VAGINA out the window at the street below. The reasoning there was not to be afraid of your cunt and that there was basically nothing to be fucking precious about there: Your vagina is a functional piece of your anatomy like any other... Get over it.

I feel like this very Australian induction/introduction to being a woman might have been useful to several other women around the skeptic slopes.

One of my sisters also attended Melbourne Girl's Grammar.
Small world, eh?

[rayshul]

As a complete aside...

I did high school in Australia, where I went to the poshest rich-bitch school in the state (because that's how I roll). One of the first lessons we had was from the school nurse, who told us to stand on our tables and shout the word VAGINA out the window at the street below. The reasoning there was not to be afraid of your cunt and that there was basically nothing to be fucking precious about there: Your vagina is a functional piece of your anatomy like any other... Get over it.

I feel like this very Australian induction/introduction to being a woman might have been useful to several other women around the skeptic slopes.

One of my sisters also attended Melbourne Girl's Grammar.
Small world, eh?

Think posher, mate.

[Michael K Gray]

As a complete aside...

I did high school in Australia, where I went to the poshest rich-bitch school in the state (because that's how I roll). One of the first lessons we had was from the school nurse, who told us to stand on our tables and shout the word VAGINA out the window at the street below. The reasoning there was not to be afraid of your cunt and that there was basically nothing to be fucking precious about there: Your vagina is a functional piece of your anatomy like any other... Get over it.

I feel like this very Australian induction/introduction to being a woman might have been useful to several other women around the skeptic slopes.

One of my sisters also attended Melbourne Girl's Grammar.
Small world, eh?

Think posher, mate.

Not (gasp) the giddy heights of Footscray Technical High?

[DownThunder]

As a complete aside...

I did high school in Australia, where I went to the poshest rich-bitch school in the state (because that's how I roll). One of the first lessons we had was from the school nurse, who told us to stand on our tables and shout the word VAGINA out the window at the street below. The reasoning there was not to be afraid of your cunt and that there was basically nothing to be fucking precious about there: Your vagina is a functional piece of your anatomy like any other... Get over it.

I feel like this very Australian induction/introduction to being a woman might have been useful to several other women around the skeptic slopes.

I went to quite a few different schools in australia.

What you describe sounds like a very casual school. I went to both very conservative (read: backwood) catholic schools, as well as very casual city christian schools. I had quite a few nuns as teachers at the conservative catholic ones. What you describe would certainly never happen without shit hitting the fan. We were gender segregated while waiting for class, and then gender interspersed while in class - meaning you were never sitting next to someone you hardly knew or would talk to.

The city christian schools I went to were a real eye opener for me. The students were on a much more casual speaking basis with the teacher, and you were allowed to sit in peer groups.

One government school I went to was a real shit-fest jungle school which was ultimately demolished due to being so decayed. The final government school was yr 11 and 12 and it was fairly acceptable.

Just a few more opinions in there to contribute to the "australian experience". Im not sure how many places youve been in aus but truthfully its a mix of developed and developing world environments.

Fuck I didnt even have a mains water supply as a kid.

Try rationing out your toilet flushes for a bit of fun.

[rayshul]

As a complete aside...

I did high school in Australia, where I went to the poshest rich-bitch school in the state (because that's how I roll). One of the first lessons we had was from the school nurse, who told us to stand on our tables and shout the word VAGINA out the window at the street below. The reasoning there was not to be afraid of your cunt and that there was basically nothing to be fucking precious about there: Your vagina is a functional piece of your anatomy like any other... Get over it.

I feel like this very Australian induction/introduction to being a woman might have been useful to several other women around the skeptic slopes.

I went to quite a few different schools in australia.

What you describe sounds like a very casual school. I went to both very conservative (read: backwood) catholic schools, as well as very casual city christian schools. I had quite a few nuns as teachers at the conservative catholic ones. What you describe would certainly never happen without shit hitting the fan. We were gender segregated while waiting for class, and then gender interspersed while in class - meaning you were never sitting next to someone you hardly knew or would talk to.

The city christian schools I went to were a real eye opener for me. The students were on a much more casual speaking basis with the teacher, and you were allowed to sit in peer groups.

Yes - it was a city one and progressive - even our nuns and priests weren't severe. I should also mention I suppose for contrast that my husband (a second generation Australian) attended a very conservative and strict christian school which wasn't real into stuff like evolution or anything else that didn't mention Jesus and seems to have more in common with your school.

I do associate an Australian attitude and culture with the blunter, more upfront attitude to shit, though, and feel that maaaay be a healthier way to approach the subjects.

[AnonymousCowherd]

So PZ's headed to a conference filled with woo-peddlers.

Sounds about right.

But are they diverse woo-peddlers?

Let's have a look at the promo image Meyers posted. I have blocked out all speakers who are not white males with beards:

http://i.imgur.com/cYoUUSv.jpg

PZ Fucking Myers: such a feminist and SJW, that he goes to do "revision of our place" in a convention with 10% women, 0% non-Caucasian speakers.

If I didn't know him better, I could swear that he is a fucking hypocrite.

Is it just me, or do others see the obelisk as phallic, particularly with it nestled between the words "even deeper", and a woman's photo with sort of come-hither-y expression overlaid on the base...

In case you're wondering; yes, you did say that out loud.

[DownThunder]

Is it just me, or do others see the obelisk as phallic, particularly with it nestled between the words "even deeper", and a woman's photo with sort of come-hither-y expression overlaid on the base...

In case you're wondering; yes, you did say that out loud.

Is it just me, or does the number 3 on the obelisk look like a set of balls?

[AnonymousCowherd]

As for the root of the word 'cunt'- it is an old English word meaning vagina.

"Old English" has a precisely dated meaning.
In "Old English" vernacular, vagina was rendered as "queynte", and slowly re-spelled to its current form, especially after the great vowel shift. (Oooh, no missus. Titter ye not!)
The domain queynte.org is in my possession, should anyone feel an urge to acquire it.
(....ooh you're ahead of me there aren't you, you filthy lot!)

For shit's sake, don't tell Physioproffee. Or at least overcharge him if you do.

[AnonymousCowherd]

I'm of course finding it hilarious that there's a conversation about genderised words and different contexts/cultures with someone whose psuedonym is Dick.

I wonder how you can have a conversation with someone who's called Dick or Fanny* without having to apologise for your sexism all the time.

*Fanny is a cunt in non-America, not a butt. OH GOSH. CULTURES.

Even so, this had to be called Man of Evil in the US;

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/e ... slight.jpg

[AnonymousCowherd]

Is it just me, or do others see the obelisk as phallic, particularly with it nestled between the words "even deeper", and a woman's photo with sort of come-hither-y expression overlaid on the base...

In case you're wondering; yes, you did say that out loud.

Is it just me, or does the number 3 on the obelisk look like a set of balls?

Yes, it's just your balls that look like that.

[decius]

No, they aren't, but I gather that you are chief arbiter of said rationales.

Not at all, I just thought it superfluous to state here that Jihad is not even on that spectrum.

[decius]

It is abundantly obvious to me when a bloviating ignoramus, such as decius, has had not a jot of serious education, experience, training, nor familiarity in tactical military engagement by which to achieve a clear pre-stated mission goal.
They cannot even coherently articulate said firm goal.
Both you and I have experienced decades of military command experience, and find it trivial to spot these dangerously uninformed bullshitters from well over the horizon.

"decius" is full of it. Overflowing, in fact.

You owe his silly notions no quarter.

I see, you served for a long time, therefore you know better than CIA and the Pentagon combined. Get it.

[decius]

Well, to be fair, in 2001 and 2004, everybody was fearing Al Qaeda's capability of striking big terrorist attacks whenever they wanted, and how Bin Laden and his cronies would never be found in the mountains of /Paquistan.

Cue 2013, Bin Laden and the others were dusted, and Al Qaeda seems unable to invoke the fear that, let's say, Kim-Fatso-Ill or whatever that sack of lard is called can invoke just by threatening to hurl a nuclear missile over Seul or Tokyo (even if we aren't sure that he has the capability to do so yet).

I'll post this again.

Messages recovered from Osama bin Laden's home after his death in 2011, including one from then al Qaeda No. 3, Atiyah Abd al-Rahman reportedly, according to the Agence France-Presse and the Washington Post, expressed frustration with the drone strikes in Pakistan. According to an unnamed U.S. Government official, in his message al-Rahman complained that drone-launched missiles were killing al Qaeda operatives faster than they could be replaced.

And if Dunford is to be believed, this:

American drones in the country must increase, the top U.S. commander in the region told Congress on Tuesday.
"I will need a sustained [intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance] effort post-2014," Gen. Joseph Dunford told members of the Senate Armed Services Committee.
"In fact, at the time that we reduce forces, [unmanned drones] actually become as important or more important," the four-star general said during the Tuesday's hearing on the current state of the Afghan war.
But as the Pentagon positions itself for a post-Afghanistan future, Defense Department leaders are shrinking their investment in the controversial counterterrorism tactic.
The aggressive use of armed drones in Afghanistan has played a significant role in turning the tide of the over decade-long conflict, according to Dunford.
"I would tell you that the Taliban are very concerned about those vehicles, and they talk about them all the time," he told committee members.
However, he did acknowledge the tremendous toll those drone operations take on Afghan civilians.
While drone strikes have paid dividends for U.S. and NATO commanders, the instances of collateral damage they cause has been a significant hurdle for American war planners.
"Even if we're doing it perfectly, if it creates, you know, a great deal of controversy within a civilian community," Dunford admitted. "That can make our challenge more difficult down the road."
U.S. drone operators have taken steps to cut down on those civilian casualties, according to Dunford.
"When we employ unmanned vehicles in Afghanistan, we have the same standard . . .as we [do] with manned vehicles," he said.
Those steps, the four-star general noted, all result in a "clear assessment of the collateral damage that might be associated with a particular strike."
"So mitigation of civilian casualties is no different, whether there's a pilot in the cockpit or not," Dunford added.
Dunford's call for more armed drones in the skies of Afghanistan after the 2014 troop withdrawal comes as the Obama administration is looking to hand DOD control over all armed drone operations.
Under the Obama administration’s proposal, the CIA would continue to supply intelligence on possible targets, but actual control over the drone strikes would fall to the military.

...snip

[Dilurk]

Off topic a bit but I made a non-theism video about my e-mail exchange with Matt Dillahunty:

As an Apatheist all I would say is, provided you don't try to convert me, or write laws based on it, believe any nonsense you want. In other words, "Religion is like bad breath, I don't care if you have it, just keep it away from me."

[Submariner]

Off topic a bit but I made a non-theism video about my e-mail exchange with Matt Dillahunty:

As an Apatheist all I would say is, provided you don't try to convert me, or write laws based on it, believe any nonsense you want. In other words, "Religion is like bad breath, I don't care if you have it, just keep it away from me."

Yeah, or fly aircraft into buildings in the name of it.

Thanks for watching.

[justinvacula]

Tune in to tonight's episode of Brave Hero Radio with Karla and I. Tonight's special guest is Ed Clint!

http://www.blogtalkradio.com/bravehero/ ... 1/ed-clint

8PM EST - Call in, chat live, listen live...and check back for the archived show if you miss it

http://i.imgur.com/zYzrWsO.jpg

[cunt]

As for your point about the epithets referring to a single person - well every singular word refers to a single person.
If someone said to you "there is a nigger in that room", you can draw two conclusions:
First, they mean that there is a black person in the room.
And second, that they are a racist fuck.

Contrast that to someone saying "there is a cunt in that room"

Still don't see that one is saying that all black people are niggers or that all women - or all people - are cunts. Therefore neither racist nor sexist.

Still seems to me to be a case of sauce for the goose, sauce for the gander: both epithets have, or should have, the same relationship to their associated charges of racism and sexism - mutatis mutandis. Seems one can't reasonably have one's cake and eat it too - if you insist on a certain standard when applied to others then you are obliged, I think, to allow the same standard to be applied to you ....

Jesus fuck. When you call a black person a nigger what you're actually saying is "you have black skin and are therefore inferior to me". That has some legitimate "splash damage" because everyone else out there with black skin now knows that you regard their skin colour as the criteria on which they will be unfairly judged by your dumb racist ass. Weirdly enough, calling a white person a nigger just doesn't really pack that same punch.

When using cunt as an insult, it doesn't always mean "you have a vagina and are therefore inferior to me", what it means is "your entire being can be reasonably compared to female genitalia, you and a piece of genitalia are indistinguishable from one another". This is why "cunt" can be applied to men as well as women (and is, more often than not). Also why referring to someone as a "prick" does not mean that you hate all men and their schlongs.

That said, i'm not sure I buy into the geographical/cultural argument. Plenty of americans use cunt as an insult way more than I do and plenty of europeans, canadians and australians object to the word however it's used. What it actually boils down to is that there's a group of people out there who are fucking busybody malcontents who get something akin to an internet sugar-rush when they actually manage to get somebody to stop doing and saying something online. If "cunt" and "bitch" were wiped from the dictionary and fell out the lexicon, these people would just move onto other words. Pretending that they're actually really hurt whenever somebody says "idiot" because thats an out-dated medical term and it hurts other people and blah blah. Now apologise.

[Tigzy]

From Peez's latest Pharyngula missive:

Richard Wiseman, Jon Ronson, and Rebecca Watson went on a road trip a while back, checking out American weirdness. One thing they did not check out, though, was the Creation “Museum”, because as Rebecca explains, they were sensitive about being mocked.

And indeed, in the linked Septchick article, the blue-haired glob does think it noteworthy that the people in question were concerned about having their dogmatic beliefs mocked.

But I can't quite bring myself to claim that this is yet another example of FC/Septchick hypocrisy; sorry Ken, but your sensitivity on the matter isn't legitimate until they start making photoshops of you. And if it should result in an offended female somewhere, you're allowed to claim outright harassment too.

http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/ ... so-touchy/

[cunt]

Yeah I hate creationists. They shouldn't be supported in any way.

*Pays cash money to get into their retarded museum and awkwardly clambours atop a dinosaur for lulz*

Durrr, fight the power.

[justinvacula]

I was invited to appear on the April 19 episode of the Pennsylvania-based David Madeira talkradio show to discuss a recent Skeptic Ink Network piece and term paper I had written concerning the ”gender wage gap.’

Listen to the clip on Soundcloud here:

http://www.skepticink.com/justinvacula/ ... eira-show/

[Cunning Punt]

I have an issue with those of you opposed to drone warfare. You guys don't understand the necessity to destroy our enemies from behind a computer screen. Fucking Luddites. Apart from that, you obviously don't grasp the majesty of war. If you cannot find the following demonstration beautiful, i assert you lack a central nervous system.

[youtube]1JSRauM78_0[/youtube]

Yes, and you would be a technophobe too, which is apparently morally worse than caring about the number of civilians being killed.

[cunt]

The most efficient way to stop crime is probably constant drone surveillance and random house searches. Don't like it, you must be a technophobic terrorist.

[ERV]

Scott (Scotty) Roberts, founder & publisher of Intrepid Magazine, says, at Pharyngula, that this is how PZ ended up on the roster for the Paradigm 2013 woo-fest:

There was no “Paradigm crew” at Convergence, nor at the Debate for the SkepChick-oriented crowd.

I was at Convergence as a presenting author, and had been invited by a very friendly pair from SkepChicks to be part of a “conversation about ancient aliens.”

Once I was seated at the table on the stage, minutes before it started I was told it was a “formal debate” with PZ and Greg Leighton(sp?). I hadn’t been told I should be prepared to debate an evolutionary biologist nor a Harvard PhD in archaeology – hell, I wasn’t even told that I would have to debate anyone, let alone men with the status and credentials of these two. But I did the best I could in what I was told would be a “fun conversation” on the topic. haha.

And no doubt about it, I had a good time, because I took none of the skeptic-packed crowd’s heckling too personally. Despite not being prepared for a debate, and not having access to my iPad or tablet – like PZ and Doug had, complete with audience members texting in messages – I still had a good time. As it was meant to be. I am sure it made for good entertainment.

After the debate, up in the SkepChicks’ party room, I invited PZ to come and do it again at the Paradigm Symposium, where the audience may be different, but which would certainly not be disrespectful.

PZ accepted. He couldnt do last October’s event, but said he’d be here this year. That event is here in Minneapolis this October.

Looking forward to treating PZ with the same respect every other guest presenter and speaker will get.

And a little later:

I never claimed I was “ambushed.” I didn’t see it that way. I figured I must’ve missed the part about “formal debate.” It was still fun and although I was unprepared, I enjoyed it. That was the purpose.

Followed by:

I think the people who attend Paradigm are good people, and they will treat PZ with the same amount of courtesy and respect they treat anyone who is speaking. Not everyone on the speaker list shares the same views – and the symposium isn’t “ancient-alien-centric.”

Someone asked about the priest with the “fist” and cut off sleeves – that’s Father Jack Ashcraft. He’s a pretty unconventional Byzantene priest who speaks out against the Vatican. He is a critical thinker who also happens to be a priest. ...

The tone turns at that point, among the other commenters. Nerd of Redhead didn't say *floosh* but he did weigh in with "Does anybody give a shit about Scotty Roberts immature whining?" Roberts seems to take it lightly and has bowed out for the night.

Youtube video of the 2012 debate is here (linked, not embedded, on purpose):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zH4cM6Fwf2U
(Scotty Roberts introduces himself in the first ~minute of the video).

He seems like a fun dude, and Im not saying that sarcastically. Has anyone emailed him to be like 'Yeah, Skepchicks/Myers and their crew are our dolts, sorry about that...'

The heckling (I only watched the first few minutes) was unnecessary.

[decius]

Has this become the Straw Pit?

The techonophia objection was addressed solely at the closing lines of Cunning Punt's post.

[mikelf]

map

map.jpg

Well, if them furriners wouldn't have changed their name from Czechoslovakia, this never woulda happened.

[cunt]

Haven't watched it yet, but "He is a critical thinker who also happens to be a priest. ..." makes the hairs on my neck twitch.

[cunt]

Just reminds me of Rap News. That's the american drone, it includes all of us.

[youtube]WpMPu5p_QXU[/youtube]

[Slither]

May/June 2013 issue of The Humanist is out. Cover article is an interview with Greg Lukianoff about his new book Unlearning Liberty, about curtailment of speech...on college campuses. It's US-centric (example from US college; discussion about first amendment) but his comments in the interview are applicable to A/S-o-verse.
....

I've just finished reading "Unlearning Liberty", and it is indeed a very good book. It is scary what is happening at American universities these days, and how few young people are even aware of the value of free speech. One quote from the book, which is quite relevant both to the FfTB people and cunt's recent post is:

Someday, perhaps, the idiocies of equating critical references to epithets with malicious uses of them will be self-evident. Someday we may conquer our phobias and stop compiling a lexicon of words that may be known only by their initials, if at all, like the sacred Name of God, or Voldemort. In the meantime, we have to persist in arguing the obvious: Words are not incantations; they do not cast spells. Instead, they take their meaning and power from the contexts in which they appear. (Wendly Kaminer, as quoted by Lukianoff)

[Skep tickle]

Re http://i.imgur.com/cYoUUSv.jpg

Is it just me, or do others see the obelisk as phallic, particularly with it nestled between the words "even deeper", and a woman's photo with sort of come-hither-y expression overlaid on the base...

In case you're wondering; yes, you did say that out loud.

What really causes me chagrin is that at least 2 people at Pharyngula (including PZ) also noticed it. :oops: :lol:

[Phil_Giordana_FCD]

Are you on a sponsored non sequitur drive?

What is the connection between the morality of slavery and the meaning of specific words?
People on both sides of the Atlantic agreed what the word "slavery" meant.

Our argument here is over a disagreement over the meaning of words.

A more apt analogy would be the word "con" - the french term for cunt.

In France "con" means 'cunt'.
In the US (and the UK) it doesn't mean cunt, and is often used as a short form of the word 'conference' (hence it's use in SkepChickCon)

If, for example, a French person writes to the organizers of SkepChickCon and says they are offended by the use of an offensive word in the name of the conference, is it reasonable to think they have a point - that the organizers should change the name in order to prevent offense?

Or is the more reasonable argument that the organizers tell the offended French person that they are mistaken - "Con" is not an offensive word in the US and therefore they would be better educating themselves as to the agreed definition of the word rather than trying to impose their own definition on a word that the majority of US conference attendees define in a non French way?

As for the root of the word 'cunt'- it is an old English word meaning vagina.
The fact that a word for vagina is used as an insult is an irrelevant argument considering that words for all excretory body parts and excretions are almost universally used as swear words - (ass, prick, dick, twat, cunt, shit, piss etc).

I think you are in danger of mixing up two unconnected points -

1. the question of using swear words at all
and
2. Which swear word or epithet to use

In the UK, for example, 'cunt', like dick, or twat, is a swear word but is NOT an epithet for a group of people.
In parts of the USA it seems that it is both.

This contrasts with 'nigger' which is understood to be an epithet in both locations.

It baffles me that after 2 years of making that point, we still have to repeat it again and again. This is one of the things that made me jump in the frail in the first place.

[cunt]

It baffles me that after 2 years of making that point, we still have to repeat it again and again. This is one of the things that made me jump in the frail in the first place.

It's because you're fixated on playing their game and not just calling them out for what they are.

[Lykas]

(Steersman)[...] calling someone an “asshole” is to a charge of “misanthropist”.

Considering that many (all?) animals have an asshole, isn't that a very "speceist" statment?

[Phil_Giordana_FCD]

It baffles me that after 2 years of making that point, we still have to repeat it again and again. This is one of the things that made me jump in the frail in the first place.

It's because you're fixated on playing their game and not just calling them out for what they are.

Err, I did call them out and bring these aspects to their attention. Then I was banned. Go figure, I just think it's not worth it anymore.

Unrelated: tomorrow Ali and I are attending our first manga/anime convention in Nice. I haven't found any harrassement policies on their website yet... http://www.cartoonist.fr/

[greylurker]

Skep tickle wrote:
Is it just me, or do others see the obelisk as phallic, particularly with it nestled between the words "even deeper", and a woman's photo with sort of come-hither-y expression overlaid on the base...

It looked to me as if the head just had a giant spike driven up into the brain - thier method for a paradigm shift?

[greylurker]

Oops, editor preview whacked out to 404 and on retyping forgot the quote marks -

Skep tickle wrote:
"Is it just me, or do others see the obelisk as phallic, particularly with it nestled between the words "even deeper", and a woman's photo with sort of come-hither-y expression overlaid on the base..."

It looked to me as if the head just had a giant spike driven up into the brain - thier method for a paradigm shift?

[free thoughtpolice]

The 'So so touchy' thread at pharyngula is really quite ironic. Apparently the creationist museum in Kentucky will throw people out if they make statements that creationists find offensive as they don't like people disagreeing and mocking their dogma.


frankb
20 April 2013 at 9:43 am (UTC -5)
"Museums have security because they have very valuable items on display. Museums that just have a series of dioramas, not so much. In the center of our campus is a museum with an extensive collection of stuffed animals which is probably of far greater value than of anything in the creation museum. But I have never seen a guard around. The guards in Kentucky are not there to protect property but to stifle political discussion."

I wonder if they got the idea to stifle free speech from Peezus?

[ConcentratedH2O, OM]

Meyers has a post which advertises a website selling sex toys and such. They have something called "Tentacle Tuesday", which excites the old pervert somewhat:

I honestly am not interested in wriggling strangely shaped tentacular objects into various orifices, but I do like the t-shirts.

Come off it, you dirty old frotter, the Pit has recorded that you do, indeed, enjoy tentacle rape porn.

viewtopic.php?p=82487#p82487

[cunt]

It baffles me that after 2 years of making that point, we still have to repeat it again and again. This is one of the things that made me jump in the frail in the first place.

It's because you're fixated on playing their game and not just calling them out for what they are.

Err, I did call them out and bring these aspects to their attention. Then I was banned. Go figure, I just think it's not worth it anymore.

Man, I have no idea what you said. I'm referring generally to this ongoing discussion about the word "cunt" that always seems to crop up and always seems to miss the two gigantic elephants in the room. It's not really about a word. It's about people getting off on telling people what to do, and gaining a sense of power that they can't find in their day-to-day lives and it's about people feeling superior for not using a word, because they have very few opportunities otherwise to feel superior.

[Phil_Giordana_FCD]

It baffles me that after 2 years of making that point, we still have to repeat it again and again. This is one of the things that made me jump in the frail in the first place.

It's because you're fixated on playing their game and not just calling them out for what they are.

Err, I did call them out and bring these aspects to their attention. Then I was banned. Go figure, I just think it's not worth it anymore.

Man, I have no idea what you said. I'm referring generally to this ongoing discussion about the word "cunt" that always seems to crop up and always seems to miss the two gigantic elephants in the room. It's not really about a word. It's about people getting off on telling people what to do, and gaining a sense of power that they can't find in their day-to-day lives and it's about people feeling superior for not using a word, because they have very few opportunities otherwise to feel superior.

And I won't argue with you on this, because we are in complete agreement.

[EdwardGemmer]

It baffles me that after 2 years of making that point, we still have to repeat it again and again. This is one of the things that made me jump in the frail in the first place.

It's because you're fixated on playing their game and not just calling them out for what they are.

Err, I did call them out and bring these aspects to their attention. Then I was banned. Go figure, I just think it's not worth it anymore.

Man, I have no idea what you said. I'm referring generally to this ongoing discussion about the word "cunt" that always seems to crop up and always seems to miss the two gigantic elephants in the room. It's not really about a word. It's about people getting off on telling people what to do, and gaining a sense of power that they can't find in their day-to-day lives and it's about people feeling superior for not using a word, because they have very few opportunities otherwise to feel superior.

And I won't argue with you on this, because we are in complete agreement.

Exactly right. There is a fine line when working for "social justice" just becomes an excuse to control people. Clearly, we are seeing that in our community.

[AbsurdWalls]

Dramatic reading of that email (unredacted):
[youtube]NQB812PtvgE[/youtube]

[nippletwister]

It baffles me that after 2 years of making that point, we still have to repeat it again and again. This is one of the things that made me jump in the frail in the first place.

It's because you're fixated on playing their game and not just calling them out for what they are.

Err, I did call them out and bring these aspects to their attention. Then I was banned. Go figure, I just think it's not worth it anymore.

Man, I have no idea what you said. I'm referring generally to this ongoing discussion about the word "cunt" that always seems to crop up and always seems to miss the two gigantic elephants in the room. It's not really about a word. It's about people getting off on telling people what to do, and gaining a sense of power that they can't find in their day-to-day lives and it's about people feeling superior for not using a word, because they have very few opportunities otherwise to feel superior.

Yup. You've said more than a few things I've disagreed with, but you are 100% spot on right here, and I think your understanding applies far beyond that one word.

[Tigzy]

:lol: In Peez latest vowel movement, he's discoved that there's a fringe group of radfems who don't like transwomen - OMG, you mean feminists can be bigoted too?!?! - and then goes on to denounce those who would judge the whole of feminism by its kookier elements...

I haven’t denied the existence of a demented feminist fringe: what I have said is that the kooks who are constantly denouncing people like me and Rebecca Watson and Amanda Marcotte as “radical feminists” don’t have the slightest clue. The fact that we clearly oppose the weird radfem agenda of transphobic hatred ought to finally make that clear to them…but give ‘em a day. They’ll be back to accusing FtB of being a hive of radical feminists again.

...just like he does with the men's rights movement.

Stay classy, Peez.

http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/ ... adfem2013/

[Steersman]

:lol: In Peez latest vowel movement, he's discoved that there's a fringe group of radfems who don't like transwomen - OMG, you mean feminists can be bigoted too?!?! - and then goes on to denounce those who would judge the whole of feminism by its kookier elements...

I haven’t denied the existence of a demented feminist fringe: what I have said is that the kooks who are constantly denouncing people like me and Rebecca Watson and Amanda Marcotte as “radical feminists” don’t have the slightest clue. The fact that we clearly oppose the weird radfem agenda of transphobic hatred ought to finally make that clear to them…but give ‘em a day. They’ll be back to accusing FtB of being a hive of radical feminists again.

...just like he does with the men's rights movement.

Stay classy, Peez.

http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/ ... adfem2013/

I can hardly wait until Ophelia takes PZ to task for his egregious misogyny – in effect with his “demented feminist fringe” – of linking “virulent” with “feminism”:

http://i47.tinypic.com/wk5pxf.jpg

[Dick Strawkins]

:lol: In Peez latest vowel movement, he's discoved that there's a fringe group of radfems who don't like transwomen - OMG, you mean feminists can be bigoted too?!?! - and then goes on to denounce those who would judge the whole of feminism by its kookier elements...

I haven’t denied the existence of a demented feminist fringe: what I have said is that the kooks who are constantly denouncing people like me and Rebecca Watson and Amanda Marcotte as “radical feminists” don’t have the slightest clue. The fact that we clearly oppose the weird radfem agenda of transphobic hatred ought to finally make that clear to them…but give ‘em a day. They’ll be back to accusing FtB of being a hive of radical feminists again.

...just like he does with the men's rights movement.

Stay classy, Peez.

http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/ ... adfem2013/

I don't think Watson and Marcotte are radfems.
Peezus cannot be one by definition as radfems don't allow for men to be feminists - you have to be a woman to be a radical feminist - men can only be 'allies' of radical feminists.

The problem with them is that they borrow the language and arguments of radical feminism whenever it suits the moment, casting it off once they've cleared the momentary inconvenience.
All the really stupid stuff - "mansplaining", "rape culture", "privilege", "power differential" - comes from the rad fems post-modernism handbook, and Peezus and friends make sure they have it on hand whenever it might be required (such as someone asking for evidence - the hyperskeptical mansplaining privileged rape culture apologist)

[Steersman]

It baffles me that after 2 years of making that point, we still have to repeat it again and again. This is one of the things that made me jump in the frail in the first place.

It's because you're fixated on playing their game and not just calling them out for what they are.

And, pray tell, who is what?

[cunt]

I've said it twice now steersman. Figure it out.

[Steersman]

Are you on a sponsored non sequitur drive?
<snip>
In the UK, for example, 'cunt', like dick, or twat, is a swear word but is NOT an epithet for a group of people.
In parts of the USA it seems that it is both.

This contrasts with 'nigger' which is understood to be an epithet in both locations.

It baffles me that after 2 years of making that point, we still have to repeat it again and again. This is one of the things that made me jump in the frail in the first place.

Repeating the contention that Jehovah made the universe 6000 years ago doesn’t make it true either.

Somewhat apropos, recently ran across this description in Steven Pinker’s The Blank Slate (highly recommended):

[The Danish philologist Otto Jespersen] attributes a personality trait to an entire people without evidence, then advances two theories – that phonology reflects personality, and that warm climates breed laziness – without invoking even correlational data, let alone proof of causation. [pg 15]

You and Cunt and Dick Strawkins have provided some “correlational data”, although of a highly questionable nature, but you all seem a little short in the “proof of causation” department ….

[cunt]

I actually agree with the rad-fems when they're talking about trans people. Saying that you're a woman over and over again does not magically grant you the ability to pass on mitochondrial DNA or otherwise put you in the exact same group. Go have some hormone therapy about it.

[cunt]

You and Cunt and Dick Strawkins have provided some “correlational data”, although of a highly questionable nature, but you all seem a little short in the “proof of causation” department ….

Really? You've been talking complete shit. If you actually wanted to make a counter-point you'd have done so.