Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

[welch]

by a non person :violin:

Hard to tell from the size of your avatar, but is that Maureen O'Sullivan?

[another lurker]

The anti-abortion camp is easy to dismiss by me. The pro-abortion camp described by your boss pisses me off. Specially when the discussion about sonograms and IU ultrasounds come up. Stupid arguments I hear usually have to do with emotional distress the woman may experience when loking at the fetus. I dunno, that reads like an argument that a pro-lifer will use.

I'm not so sure. Where pre-op procedures are necessary for the success of the operation I think it's clearly silly to complain. But when an individual is being subjected to procedures just so they give the operation more thought it seems patronising.

So beyond possible emotional distress it's also a drain on time, maybe money, its having another set of doctors poking around and so on.

And these exams, and added waiting times, are all medically unnecessary.

Plus, the women have to pay extra, and take extra days off work, and lose pay, and often travel hundreds of miles, all to meet these new 'guidelines'.

Anti-choice politicians are passing these laws in order to make it even more difficult for women, especially low income women, to get an early, affordable, abortion.

Another 'reasonable' sounding tactic is to force abortion clinic physicians to get admitting privileges at local hospitals - which, unsurprisingly, get denied! And to pass all sorts of 'safety' rules for abortion clinics that are so expensive that the clinic has no choice but to shut down.

These anti-choice politicians are also trying really hard to make medical abortion - within the first few weeks of pregnancy - to be as difficult and expensive to get as possible. What they want to do is make an early abortion nearly impossible, and to incrementally lower the 'viability' requirement to 20 weeks and lower, in order to basically make it impossible to get an abortion unless a woman has money and can travel for an abortion.

[curriejean]

I'm a zoolongist(sp?)

"Absoloute" and "indignance" - be honest now, you weren't going for a rare form to add flair, you just forgot about "indignation" - absolutely ruined the little humor in your mock-learned tirade, for me; these need to be perfect to keep up the theme. In other words: flee like you promised, cunt and go weed out some more signatures.

Yep, forgot about 'indignation,' also accidentally a word near the end and used 'herd' when I should have used 'flock.' When the preview button submits instead, you've just gotta roll with it.

[Karmakin]

The anti-abortion camp is easy to dismiss by me. The pro-abortion camp described by your boss pisses me off. Specially when the discussion about sonograms and IU ultrasounds come up. Stupid arguments I hear usually have to do with emotional distress the woman may experience when loking at the fetus. I dunno, that reads like an argument that a pro-lifer will use.

I'm not so sure. Where pre-op procedures are necessary for the success of the operation I think it's clearly silly to complain. But when an individual is being subjected to procedures just so they give the operation more thought it seems patronising.

So beyond possible emotional distress it's also a drain on time, maybe money, its having another set of doctors poking around and so on.

Well, it's FUD, basically. It's meant to instill fear, uncertainty and doubt. Needless to say, I think abortion is a tough enough decision without making it even tougher.

[Karmakin]

The anti-abortion camp is easy to dismiss by me. The pro-abortion camp described by your boss pisses me off. Specially when the discussion about sonograms and IU ultrasounds come up. Stupid arguments I hear usually have to do with emotional distress the woman may experience when loking at the fetus. I dunno, that reads like an argument that a pro-lifer will use.

I'm not so sure. Where pre-op procedures are necessary for the success of the operation I think it's clearly silly to complain. But when an individual is being subjected to procedures just so they give the operation more thought it seems patronising.

So beyond possible emotional distress it's also a drain on time, maybe money, its having another set of doctors poking around and so on.

And these exams, and added waiting times, are all medically unnecessary.

Plus, the women have to pay extra, and take extra days off work, and lose pay, and often travel hundreds of miles, all to meet these new 'guidelines'.

Anti-choice politicians are passing these laws in order to make it even more difficult for women, especially low income women, to get an early, affordable, abortion.

Another 'reasonable' sounding tactic is to force abortion clinic physicians to get admitting privileges at local hospitals - which, unsurprisingly, get denied! And to pass all sorts of 'safety' rules for abortion clinics that are so expensive that the clinic has no choice but to shut down.

These anti-choice politicians are also trying really hard to make medical abortion - within the first few weeks of pregnancy - to be as difficult and expensive to get as possible. What they want to do is make an early abortion nearly impossible, and to incrementally lower the 'viability' requirement to 20 weeks and lower, in order to basically make it impossible to get an abortion unless a woman has money and can travel for an abortion.

This as well. This actually makes abortion a class issue, not just a gender issue....although good luck getting the privileged SJW's to recognize that part of it.

[welch]

The anti-abortion camp is easy to dismiss by me. The pro-abortion camp described by your boss pisses me off. Specially when the discussion about sonograms and IU ultrasounds come up. Stupid arguments I hear usually have to do with emotional distress the woman may experience when loking at the fetus. I dunno, that reads like an argument that a pro-lifer will use.

I'm not so sure. Where pre-op procedures are necessary for the success of the operation I think it's clearly silly to complain. But when an individual is being subjected to procedures just so they give the operation more thought it seems patronising.

So beyond possible emotional distress it's also a drain on time, maybe money, its having another set of doctors poking around and so on.

And these exams, and added waiting times, are all medically unnecessary.

Plus, the women have to pay extra, and take extra days off work, and lose pay, and often travel hundreds of miles, all to meet these new 'guidelines'.

Anti-choice politicians are passing these laws in order to make it even more difficult for women, especially low income women, to get an early, affordable, abortion.

Another 'reasonable' sounding tactic is to force abortion clinic physicians to get admitting privileges at local hospitals - which, unsurprisingly, get denied! And to pass all sorts of 'safety' rules for abortion clinics that are so expensive that the clinic has no choice but to shut down.

These anti-choice politicians are also trying really hard to make medical abortion - within the first few weeks of pregnancy - to be as difficult and expensive to get as possible. What they want to do is make an early abortion nearly impossible, and to incrementally lower the 'viability' requirement to 20 weeks and lower, in order to basically make it impossible to get an abortion unless a woman has money and can travel for an abortion.

This as well. This actually makes abortion a class issue, not just a gender issue....although good luck getting the privileged SJW's to recognize that part of it.

It was always a class issue. Pre-Roe v. Wade, women of means could get an abortion with ease. They would spend money to travel to another country where Abortion was legal, and get one. Then travel home. The only "barrier" to them was the traveling. Making abortion illegal in this country will not do *dick* to stop women with the money to get one elsewhere from getting one. Birth control illegal in this country? Get it in another country. Done.

The women who are fucked over by the effort to re-criminalize abortion are the women who can't afford jaunts to wherever. So yeah. This is a class issue more than a gender issue.

[agarybuseychristmas]

This as well. This actually makes abortion a class issue, not just a gender issue....although good luck getting the privileged SJW's to recognize that part of it.

They'll probably frame it as racial.

[treestump]

was curious if anybody has the original content that was on this page? is there a freezepage or something of it somewhere as the one here has been deleted: http://pharyngula.wikia.com/wiki/Phil_Giordana

[jjbinx007]

was curious if anybody has the original content that was on this page? is there a freezepage or something of it somewhere as the one here has been deleted: http://pharyngula.wikia.com/wiki/Phil_Giordana

http://web.archive.org/web/201110300423 ... l_Giordana

[Outwest]

Folks might want to keep an eye on http://www.michaelnugent.com/2013/06/07 ... nd-emails/

Seems a hornet's nest has been stirred up. Skep tickle's story, the Skeptic Women page, EBW's story would be good effective responses. Don't have time myself right now.

It's really funny, no SAD how the FTB defenders will deny any wrongdoing from their masters. I would place a bet right now that if one of the FTB'ers was caught on video doing something illegal, they would say that it was not true. Or try to blame it on people here.

[cunt]

The anti-abortion camp is easy to dismiss by me. The pro-abortion camp described by your boss pisses me off. Specially when the discussion about sonograms and IU ultrasounds come up. Stupid arguments I hear usually have to do with emotional distress the woman may experience when loking at the fetus. I dunno, that reads like an argument that a pro-lifer will use.

I'm not so sure. Where pre-op procedures are necessary for the success of the operation I think it's clearly silly to complain. But when an individual is being subjected to procedures just so they give the operation more thought it seems patronising.

So beyond possible emotional distress it's also a drain on time, maybe money, its having another set of doctors poking around and so on.

And these exams, and added waiting times, are all medically unnecessary.

Plus, the women have to pay extra, and take extra days off work, and lose pay, and often travel hundreds of miles, all to meet these new 'guidelines'.

Anti-choice politicians are passing these laws in order to make it even more difficult for women, especially low income women, to get an early, affordable, abortion.

Another 'reasonable' sounding tactic is to force abortion clinic physicians to get admitting privileges at local hospitals - which, unsurprisingly, get denied! And to pass all sorts of 'safety' rules for abortion clinics that are so expensive that the clinic has no choice but to shut down.

These anti-choice politicians are also trying really hard to make medical abortion - within the first few weeks of pregnancy - to be as difficult and expensive to get as possible. What they want to do is make an early abortion nearly impossible, and to incrementally lower the 'viability' requirement to 20 weeks and lower, in order to basically make it impossible to get an abortion unless a woman has money and can travel for an abortion.

This as well. This actually makes abortion a class issue, not just a gender issue....although good luck getting the privileged SJW's to recognize that part of it.

It was always a class issue. Pre-Roe v. Wade, women of means could get an abortion with ease. They would spend money to travel to another country where Abortion was legal, and get one. Then travel home. The only "barrier" to them was the traveling. Making abortion illegal in this country will not do *dick* to stop women with the money to get one elsewhere from getting one. Birth control illegal in this country? Get it in another country. Done.

The women who are fucked over by the effort to re-criminalize abortion are the women who can't afford jaunts to wherever. So yeah. This is a class issue more than a gender issue.

So that's pretty much all women then? 80% of women, 90%? How many women could really afford to get out of the country and pay for a procedure without it fucking them (and their families) up financially for years?

Obviously class is a part of it, but to call it a "class issue". Nah.

[cunt]

Actually it still fucking amazes me that you cunts haven't managed to set up a system of universal health-care. This is shit that Britain managed when it was a bombed out, flat-broke husk.

[Remick]

Actually it still fucking amazes me that you cunts haven't managed to set up a system of universal health-care. This is shit that Britain managed when it was a bombed out, flat-broke husk.

It is incredibly easy to convince the American voter to vote against their actual interest.

This is pretty much how it goes....

[youtube]0YOh-rpvjYg[/youtube]

[jjbinx007]

Blast from the past...comments section is also interesting:

http://web.archive.org/web/201111030409 ... _vegas.php

[Outwest]

And this is fucking hilarious:

This guy is oficially my hero.

And he's absolutely right. Who gives a shit?

[Ape+lust]

http://i.imgur.com/qCtRImo.jpg

[welch]

I'm not so sure. Where pre-op procedures are necessary for the success of the operation I think it's clearly silly to complain. But when an individual is being subjected to procedures just so they give the operation more thought it seems patronising.

So beyond possible emotional distress it's also a drain on time, maybe money, its having another set of doctors poking around and so on.

And these exams, and added waiting times, are all medically unnecessary.

Plus, the women have to pay extra, and take extra days off work, and lose pay, and often travel hundreds of miles, all to meet these new 'guidelines'.

Anti-choice politicians are passing these laws in order to make it even more difficult for women, especially low income women, to get an early, affordable, abortion.

Another 'reasonable' sounding tactic is to force abortion clinic physicians to get admitting privileges at local hospitals - which, unsurprisingly, get denied! And to pass all sorts of 'safety' rules for abortion clinics that are so expensive that the clinic has no choice but to shut down.

These anti-choice politicians are also trying really hard to make medical abortion - within the first few weeks of pregnancy - to be as difficult and expensive to get as possible. What they want to do is make an early abortion nearly impossible, and to incrementally lower the 'viability' requirement to 20 weeks and lower, in order to basically make it impossible to get an abortion unless a woman has money and can travel for an abortion.

This as well. This actually makes abortion a class issue, not just a gender issue....although good luck getting the privileged SJW's to recognize that part of it.

It was always a class issue. Pre-Roe v. Wade, women of means could get an abortion with ease. They would spend money to travel to another country where Abortion was legal, and get one. Then travel home. The only "barrier" to them was the traveling. Making abortion illegal in this country will not do *dick* to stop women with the money to get one elsewhere from getting one. Birth control illegal in this country? Get it in another country. Done.

The women who are fucked over by the effort to re-criminalize abortion are the women who can't afford jaunts to wherever. So yeah. This is a class issue more than a gender issue.

So that's pretty much all women then? 80% of women, 90%? How many women could really afford to get out of the country and pay for a procedure without it fucking them (and their families) up financially for years?

Obviously class is a part of it, but to call it a "class issue". Nah.

Um, I know this is a surprise, but going to Canada is not out of the realm of possibility for 80%-90% of women. Especially women with those weird "job" things who maybe have "savings". In addition, a first trimester in-clinic abortion at say a Planned Parenthood center coasts between $300 and $950. (http://www.plannedparenthood.org/health ... s-4359.asp)

Later period abortions cost more, but don't scale vertically by any means. Those are US costs, but Canadian costs seem to track that closely. (http://abortionincanada.ca/funding/)

Average cost of a plane ticket to say Toronto? From Tallahassee, it's under $600. (delta.com)

So, depending on the situation, it is not unrealistic to be able to travel to Canada, even if you don't drive, get a safe, legal abortion, and come home for right around $2K US. That's not change in the couch cushions money, but it's not going to drive you into debt for the rest of your life either. Abortion, moral issues aside, is a fairly simple procedure. It's not cancer treatment.

[Eskarina]

Actually it still fucking amazes me that you cunts haven't managed to set up a system of universal health-care. This is shit that Britain managed when it was a bombed out, flat-broke husk.

It is incredibly easy to convince the American voter to vote against their actual interest.

This is pretty much how it goes....

[youtube]0YOh-rpvjYg[/youtube]

Plus the fervent dislike of a good portion of them for seemingly having to pay for the treatment of someone else's diseases.

The fact that, in any universal healthcare system that I know of, other people will pay for the treatment of their diseases somehow escapes them. Or isn't really properly explained. Or they are too dumb to understand. Or....

Anyways, I'm not going to pay for your broken leg, Mister.

Asking for donations for cancer treatment seems to be perfectly okay, though.

But organised solidarity seems to work much better. That's at least my experience.

[zenbabe]

Blast from the past...comments section is also interesting:

http://web.archive.org/web/201111030409 ... _vegas.php

Noo.. damn you jjbinx007, damn you to hell.
Was just meandering through this post and the comments, enjoying the history, and you blast out an ERV post+comments that is denser than a neutron star.

[Wonderist]

I wrote three replies to Penfold's absurdity pointing out his hypocrisy and sloppy thinking and canned each of them because it's really an exercise in futilty. He won't get it, those on "his" side won't get it and for the rest it's preaching to the choir.

Don't write it for him. Yes, that would be pointless. Write it for everyone else who might possibly read the blog. Specifically, those who are on the fence or don't know the issues yet. It's much easier to write for reasonable people, even if it's addressed toward the unreasonable person, because you'll be able to maintain some sense that your post could do some good. And it will. Nugent's had a 180, it seems, even if he maintains strict neutrality in his posts. Ron Lindsay's been getting more involved. These are the people who've been silently watching and reading and thinking, "Ya know, there's a bigger issue to this whole thing than just bickering between Penfolds and Eskarinas." Those are the folks to write for. This is a long process. The analogies to deconversions of theists is not a bad analogy. Slowly but surely people are waking up. A year ago slymepit.com didn't even exist yet! Things were looking pretty dismal. Things are changing, folks. A constant, steady pressure of *reason* against *unreason* is what will shift the balance in the long run. Worked for atheism, will work for this.

[Karmakin]

Um, I know this is a surprise, but going to Canada is not out of the realm of possibility for 80%-90% of women. Especially women with those weird "job" things who maybe have "savings". In addition, a first trimester in-clinic abortion at say a Planned Parenthood center coasts between $300 and $950. (http://www.plannedparenthood.org/health ... s-4359.asp)

Later period abortions cost more, but don't scale vertically by any means. Those are US costs, but Canadian costs seem to track that closely. (http://abortionincanada.ca/funding/)

Average cost of a plane ticket to say Toronto? From Tallahassee, it's under $600. (delta.com)

So, depending on the situation, it is not unrealistic to be able to travel to Canada, even if you don't drive, get a safe, legal abortion, and come home for right around $2K US. That's not change in the couch cushions money, but it's not going to drive you into debt for the rest of your life either. Abortion, moral issues aside, is a fairly simple procedure. It's not cancer treatment.

I would add on top of that that it's not even just the money that's a problem, for lower-class working people it's the matter of getting the time off in advance to be able to schedule it. I know that at my workplace, vacation time (and I guess we're more lucky than most to have it) is often not denied/approved until the day before IF that. As far as I know, that's pretty standard in the lower classes.

[cunt]

Really, because I'd guess that $2k american is a significant portion of most peoples salaries.

[welch]

Um, I know this is a surprise, but going to Canada is not out of the realm of possibility for 80%-90% of women. Especially women with those weird "job" things who maybe have "savings". In addition, a first trimester in-clinic abortion at say a Planned Parenthood center coasts between $300 and $950. (http://www.plannedparenthood.org/health ... s-4359.asp)

Later period abortions cost more, but don't scale vertically by any means. Those are US costs, but Canadian costs seem to track that closely. (http://abortionincanada.ca/funding/)

Average cost of a plane ticket to say Toronto? From Tallahassee, it's under $600. (delta.com)

So, depending on the situation, it is not unrealistic to be able to travel to Canada, even if you don't drive, get a safe, legal abortion, and come home for right around $2K US. That's not change in the couch cushions money, but it's not going to drive you into debt for the rest of your life either. Abortion, moral issues aside, is a fairly simple procedure. It's not cancer treatment.

I would add on top of that that it's not even just the money that's a problem, for lower-class working people it's the matter of getting the time off in advance to be able to schedule it. I know that at my workplace, vacation time (and I guess we're more lucky than most to have it) is often not denied/approved until the day before IF that. As far as I know, that's pretty standard in the lower classes.

Yep. When filling the car you need to get to work with gas is a real expense, even $2K is a lot of money, and as you point out, that's assuming you can get the time off. Not always a given.

[Metalogic42]

Blast from the past...comments section is also interesting:

http://web.archive.org/web/201111030409 ... _vegas.php

Whoa...

Aratina Cage, if you really don't like smears and spin, why exactly are you complaining about here of all places? Come off it, we all know Pharyngula threads live off shit being thrown all the time, character assassinations, smears, spin till it leaves Earth-orbit, etc. And that's not even before we get onto the bizarro antics of skeptifem et al.

Seriously, this hypocritical shit being peddled -- that here is supposed to be some kind of nasty swamp full of MRA alligators -- is just so bullshit. One of the greatest ironies is to see the sudden turn-about by people who were screaming about tone-trolling up till a month ago, and are now all allegedly in favor of respect, yada yada yada.

And I wonder just how long PZ can continue to be two-faced about Dawkins. Almost anyone here is not saying anything beyond what Dawkins meant, and yet PZ is desperately trying to portray Dawkins as merely mistaken while he portrays others as MRFA/KKK/NRA/whatevah members.

Posted by: Gurdur

Quite at odds with his current attitude.

[Wonderist]

The anti-abortion camp is easy to dismiss by me. The pro-abortion camp described by your boss pisses me off. Specially when the discussion about sonograms and IU ultrasounds come up. Stupid arguments I hear usually have to do with emotional distress the woman may experience when loking at the fetus. I dunno, that reads like an argument that a pro-lifer will use.

I'm not so sure. Where pre-op procedures are necessary for the success of the operation I think it's clearly silly to complain. But when an individual is being subjected to procedures just so they give the operation more thought it seems patronising.

So beyond possible emotional distress it's also a drain on time, maybe money, its having another set of doctors poking around and so on.

And these exams, and added waiting times, are all medically unnecessary.

Plus, the women have to pay extra, and take extra days off work, and lose pay, and often travel hundreds of miles, all to meet these new 'guidelines'.

Anti-choice politicians are passing these laws in order to make it even more difficult for women, especially low income women, to get an early, affordable, abortion.

Reminds me a lot of how some right-wing upper class racists in red states have tried to impose super-strict voter ID and registration procedures to block out poor and minority groups from having easy access to voting.

Could you imagine if the abortion thing were framed in terms of block-the-vote shenanigans? I could imagine some political cartoon, "Now, now, Negro. We'll just have to stick this up your rectum so you can have a good long hard think about if you *REALLY* want to vote."

[Remick]

Really, because I'd guess that $2k american is a significant portion of most peoples salaries.

Compared to the cost of having the child and then raising it? People can find a way.


Why is this even relevant, Abortion will not be re-illegalized. Any reversal would at most return the decision to the states(which would still be bad).

The bigger issue is for the poor who can't afford the travel, and the young, who might not have the ability for other reasons.

[welch]

Really, because I'd guess that $2k american is a significant portion of most peoples salaries.

Oh stop being a cunt just because that's your nickname. As I said, it's not pocket change, but your assertion that it is beyond the range for all but the top 10-20% of wage earners and will "fuck them up for years" is stupid, and factually incorrect. A $2K expense is something that many people manage on a regular basis, all without being rich.

Now you're what, trying to move the goalpost to a single paycheck?

You made a statement that was factually wrong.

[Zenspace]

Blast from the past...comments section is also interesting:

http://web.archive.org/web/201111030409 ... _vegas.php

Noo.. damn you jjbinx007, damn you to hell.
Was just meandering through this post and the comments, enjoying the history, and you blast out an ERV post+comments that is denser than a neutron star.

:lol:

I clicked that link and it was like being sucked into a huge black hole. 2006 comments! :shock:

I was fortunate to not be participating in any of the online atheist/skeptic stuff back then, so missed the whole show. What is really interesting in the comments there is you can see all the recognizable players starting to gravitate towards their present orbits.

Fascinating.

[Wonderist]

Blast from the past...comments section is also interesting:

http://web.archive.org/web/201111030409 ... _vegas.php

Whoa...

Aratina Cage, if you really don't like smears and spin, why exactly are you complaining about here of all places? Come off it, we all know Pharyngula threads live off shit being thrown all the time, character assassinations, smears, spin till it leaves Earth-orbit, etc. And that's not even before we get onto the bizarro antics of skeptifem et al.

Seriously, this hypocritical shit being peddled -- that here is supposed to be some kind of nasty swamp full of MRA alligators -- is just so bullshit. One of the greatest ironies is to see the sudden turn-about by people who were screaming about tone-trolling up till a month ago, and are now all allegedly in favor of respect, yada yada yada.

And I wonder just how long PZ can continue to be two-faced about Dawkins. Almost anyone here is not saying anything beyond what Dawkins meant, and yet PZ is desperately trying to portray Dawkins as merely mistaken while he portrays others as MRFA/KKK/NRA/whatevah members.

Posted by: Gurdur

Quite at odds with his current attitude.

Gurdur has mentioned that he maintains strict polite/civil tone for his Heathen Hub and other related projects, which is quite understandable, IMO. Outside that venue, I imagine he's like anyone else and likes to let loose. The analogy of this place to a pub continues to be a good analogy. I also adapt my 'tone' to the venue. You won't find me talking about piles of shit with cherries on top on my Facebook profile or on Nugent's blog, for example, but why censor myself in one of the few places left online where atheists/skeptics can let loose?

[Tony Parsehole]

Do you know what I miss?.....Ragging on Greg Laden. What happened with all that?

[Tony Parsehole]

http://i.imgur.com/qCtRImo.jpg

It's good to have you back mate.

[zenbabe]

Blast from the past...comments section is also interesting:

http://web.archive.org/web/201111030409 ... _vegas.php

Noo.. damn you jjbinx007, damn you to hell.
Was just meandering through this post and the comments, enjoying the history, and you blast out an ERV post+comments that is denser than a neutron star.

:lol:

I clicked that link and it was like being sucked into a huge black hole. 2006 comments! :shock:

I was fortunate to not be participating in any of the online atheist/skeptic stuff back then, so missed the whole show. What is really interesting in the comments there is you can see all the recognizable players starting to gravitate towards their present orbits.

Fascinating.

After being stretched to spaghetti from delving into the vortex of events neither of us where here for, will we reach the point in time where even light can't escape?

[Tony Parsehole]

Who was it that first uploaded the Greg laden head made into a cock? Say what you like about puerile humour but that was funny as fuck.

[Zenspace]

As for scrolling, see what happens when you push down on your mouse's scroll whelk and move the cursor up or down while pressing the scroll wheel. This works on my desktop.

I tried using a scroll whelk for gaming, but Jesus, it made my mouse pad look like Stephanie Svan did a big fat split on it.

http://www.lancashiremcs.org.uk/gallery/pics/whelk.jpg

Scroll whelk? Oh, fer cryin' out loud, goddam iPhone auto correct.

The price? Thorough visual cortex scrubbing with single malt scotch later, courtesy of Mykeru.

[cunt]

Really, because I'd guess that $2k american is a significant portion of most peoples salaries.

Compared to the cost of having the child and then raising it? People can find a way.


Why is this even relevant, Abortion will not be re-illegalized. Any reversal would at most return the decision to the states(which would still be bad).

The bigger issue is for the poor who can't afford the travel, and the young, who might not have the ability for other reasons.

It's not all that relevant. It's just fucking weird that people attempt to frame it as a class issue. Like the rich would hypothetically love flying over to a foreign country just so their wives and daughters can access that healthcare, because they can afford it or whatever.

[codelette]

The anti-abortion camp is easy to dismiss by me. The pro-abortion camp described by your boss pisses me off. Specially when the discussion about sonograms and IU ultrasounds come up. Stupid arguments I hear usually have to do with emotional distress the woman may experience when loking at the fetus. I dunno, that reads like an argument that a pro-lifer will use.

I'm not so sure. Where pre-op procedures are necessary for the success of the operation I think it's clearly silly to complain. But when an individual is being subjected to procedures just so they give the operation more thought it seems patronising.

So beyond possible emotional distress it's also a drain on time, maybe money, its having another set of doctors poking around and so on.

My point is that if one is so sure of the final outcome; the rest of the fluff should not matter at all. Money is a good argument for the pro-abortion camp; emotional distress is not. Emotional distress feeds into the narrative of "fragile women that later regret having an abortion" utilized by the anti-abortion camp.
They make it sound like this horrible transgression. My opinion based on personal experience is that the two visits, the sonogram, the questions (they ask you, among other things, if you were coerced) and the whole enchilada is as big of a deal as having a root canal. Mine was done in Tuscaloosa. I always find it curious that I went twice and there was no one protesting outside. When I went to PP in Brooklyn to get my pills, I had to go through a metal detector.

[jjbinx007]

It's also amusing that Dawkins was doing something tangible and positive by arranging childcare at conferences long before the dysfunctional SJWs started arguing over harassment policies and crying over Tshirts.

Can we declare AtheismPlus dead yet, by the way? They only bothered to transcribe a few dozen videos (some of which were Google hangouts.. Jeebus, talk about getting priorities in order) and as far as I can tell the A+ forum is pretty much dead. If people are posting to it then it's most likely the same dozen or so people doing so on secret threads. Very few (if any) of the prominent FTB/Skepchick lot post there. It's an echo chamber - the toxic atmosphere killed any chance of making it a place where anything of any substance could happen.

For all their faults, Christians manage to organise themselves and go out and feed homeless people. What have the pro-Feminist atheistic Social Justice Warriors achieved apart from demonstrate they're utterly dysfunctional?

[Zenspace]

Blast from the past...comments section is also interesting:

http://web.archive.org/web/201111030409 ... _vegas.php

Noo.. damn you jjbinx007, damn you to hell.
Was just meandering through this post and the comments, enjoying the history, and you blast out an ERV post+comments that is denser than a neutron star.

:lol:

I clicked that link and it was like being sucked into a huge black hole. 2006 comments! :shock:

I was fortunate to not be participating in any of the online atheist/skeptic stuff back then, so missed the whole show. What is really interesting in the comments there is you can see all the recognizable players starting to gravitate towards their present orbits.

Fascinating.

After being stretched to spaghetti from delving into the vortex of events neither of us where here for, will we reach the point in time where even light can't escape?

I'm pretty certain that has happened over at FftB already. :think:

[welch]

Really, because I'd guess that $2k american is a significant portion of most peoples salaries.

Compared to the cost of having the child and then raising it? People can find a way.


Why is this even relevant, Abortion will not be re-illegalized. Any reversal would at most return the decision to the states(which would still be bad).

The bigger issue is for the poor who can't afford the travel, and the young, who might not have the ability for other reasons.

It's not all that relevant. It's just fucking weird that people attempt to frame it as a class issue. Like the rich would hypothetically love flying over to a foreign country just so their wives and daughters can access that healthcare, because they can afford it or whatever.

Not commonly known fact: for a short time, I was president of the UND NARAL chapter. I actually did a lot of research on who the abortion ban really directly affected, and by and large, that was more based on class. Again, you're not an american, your knowledge of certain facts is going to be small. People in this country, right now, mind you, not the very rich, do a rather large amount of going to other countries to get cheaper health care. it's become a bit of a cottage industry in Canada and Mexico, countries that you can get to via the hugely expensive method of *driving* if you choose. The only people really screwed over by making abortion illegal are the people for whom $2K IS a lot of money, but that is not 80% of the fucking population. For everyone else, they can, without going into the massive amounts of debt you think they surely must, go to where abortions are legal, and get one.

If you have the $2K, it is an inconvenience, not a ban. Facts, they are not on your side in this case.

[Gefan]

...What have the pro-Feminist atheistic Social Justice Warriors achieved apart from demonstrate they're utterly dysfunctional?

You mean besides providing a consistent and delicious stream of lulz to the rest of us?

[treestump]

was curious if anybody has the original content that was on this page? is there a freezepage or something of it somewhere as the one here has been deleted: http://pharyngula.wikia.com/wiki/Phil_Giordana

http://web.archive.org/web/201110300423 ... l_Giordana

ta jjbinx007, I'll put that up to Pharwrongula where it only references the empty page.

[codelette]

I'll say it is a combo of race/class, but my opinion is a bit different based on the history behind PP. The only babies that those politicians do care about is the bouncy white from middle (and up) classes. Also, they do not want to subsidize anything that is not big industrials and the war machine. They really don't care too much that brownies are aborting as much as they hate "footing the bill". Back in the day, the island of Puerto Rico was used as testing grounds for population control. I believe most American taxpayers knew about it. There was no internet. lol

[cunt]

Really, because I'd guess that $2k american is a significant portion of most peoples salaries.

Compared to the cost of having the child and then raising it? People can find a way.


Why is this even relevant, Abortion will not be re-illegalized. Any reversal would at most return the decision to the states(which would still be bad).

The bigger issue is for the poor who can't afford the travel, and the young, who might not have the ability for other reasons.

It's not all that relevant. It's just fucking weird that people attempt to frame it as a class issue. Like the rich would hypothetically love flying over to a foreign country just so their wives and daughters can access that healthcare, because they can afford it or whatever.

Not commonly known fact: for a short time, I was president of the UND NARAL chapter. I actually did a lot of research on who the abortion ban really directly affected, and by and large, that was more based on class. Again, you're not an american, your knowledge of certain facts is going to be small. People in this country, right now, mind you, not the very rich, do a rather large amount of going to other countries to get cheaper health care. it's become a bit of a cottage industry in Canada and Mexico, countries that you can get to via the hugely expensive method of *driving* if you choose. The only people really screwed over by making abortion illegal are the people for whom $2K IS a lot of money, but that is not 80% of the fucking population. For everyone else, they can, without going into the massive amounts of debt you think they surely must, go to where abortions are legal, and get one.

If you have the $2K, it is an inconvenience, not a ban. Facts, they are not on your side in this case.

You should probably quote some stats on that, because right now £1287.25 is almost about months pay-check for the average british worker. Paying that out, yeah it would be an inconvenience, but not just for the poor and the young. Really for most people.

I'm wondering though what you think the drive to ban abortion is. To repeal Roe vs. Wade. Do you really think they just want poor women to have loads of kids? Because it looks to me like they just want women to adhere to their bullshit religious doctrines.

[Phil_Giordana_FCD]

They make it sound like this horrible transgression. My opinion based on personal experience is that the two visits, the sonogram, the questions (they ask you, among other things, if you were coerced) and the whole enchilada is as big of a deal as having a root canal. Mine was done in Tuscaloosa. I always find it curious that I went twice and there was no one protesting outside. When I went to PP in Brooklyn to get my pills, I had to go through a metal detector.

Why would anyone protest a root canal? :rimshot:


In other news, my uncle has passed the night and is out of his coma, for now. My grandmother is getting a bit distressed and is accusing the hospital of not feeding/hydrating him. I had to take some time to explain IVs to her.

It's still not looking pretty, but a bit less gloomy than yesterday. At least, it will allow me to go and visit him tomorrow.

thanks everyone for the sympathies.

[Metalogic42]

FFTB - Where even light can't escape!

http://i.imgur.com/GArvrX5.png

[Tigzy]

Do you know what I miss?.....Ragging on Greg Laden. What happened with all that?

It's because Greg Laden shut his flap-hole and stopped saying and doing stupid shit. Well, in regards to atheism/skepticsm at least. I understand he's more into environmental stuff these days, though Greg being Greg, he's also attracted some pushback on that front as well (according to post by Svanatee a while back). I'm guessing the reason he's persona non grata in those quarters is unlikely to be down much incisive intellect and biting wit flowing from that testosterone-damaged woman's brain of his.

[Altair]

Why would anyone protest a root canal? :rimshot:


In other news, my uncle has passed the night and is out of his coma, for now. My grandmother is getting a bit distressed and is accusing the hospital of not feeding/hydrating him. I had to take some time to explain IVs to her.

It's still not looking pretty, but a bit less gloomy than yesterday. At least, it will allow me to go and visit him tomorrow.

thanks everyone for the sympathies.

I'm glad your uncle is doing better, Phil. Keep on trucking.

[codelette]

I'll say it is a combo of race/class, but my opinion is a bit different based on the history behind PP. The only babies that those politicians do care about is the bouncy white from middle (and up) classes. Also, they do not want to subsidize anything that is not big industrials and the war machine. They really don't care too much that brownies are aborting as much as they hate "footing the bill". Back in the day, the island of Puerto Rico was used as testing grounds for population control. I believe most American taxpayers knew about it. There was no internet. lol

"Most American taxpayers didn't know..."

[JAB]

Really, because I'd guess that $2k american is a significant portion of most peoples salaries.

Compared to the cost of having the child and then raising it? People can find a way.


Why is this even relevant, Abortion will not be re-illegalized. Any reversal would at most return the decision to the states(which would still be bad).

The bigger issue is for the poor who can't afford the travel, and the young, who might not have the ability for other reasons.

It's not all that relevant. It's just fucking weird that people attempt to frame it as a class issue. Like the rich would hypothetically love flying over to a foreign country just so their wives and daughters can access that healthcare, because they can afford it or whatever.

Not commonly known fact: for a short time, I was president of the UND NARAL chapter. I actually did a lot of research on who the abortion ban really directly affected, and by and large, that was more based on class. Again, you're not an american, your knowledge of certain facts is going to be small. People in this country, right now, mind you, not the very rich, do a rather large amount of going to other countries to get cheaper health care. it's become a bit of a cottage industry in Canada and Mexico, countries that you can get to via the hugely expensive method of *driving* if you choose. The only people really screwed over by making abortion illegal are the people for whom $2K IS a lot of money, but that is not 80% of the fucking population. For everyone else, they can, without going into the massive amounts of debt you think they surely must, go to where abortions are legal, and get one.

If you have the $2K, it is an inconvenience, not a ban. Facts, they are not on your side in this case.

There's also the further delay that most Americans don't have passports, and you need one for Canada (or at least to get back into the States). I also don't know how easy it is to get into Canada if you don't have a job at home... the fear you're coming to steal a job, oh no! I know it's difficult for a Canadian to go to the States for a holiday if they're currently unemployed, or the border guard suspects they are. I would also imagine that it's best if abortions are linked to some aftercare to handle the emotional aspects and hormonal ones as well.

None of these obstacles are insurmountable on their own, but they do start to add up. It'd be a lot better if you figured out this locally and stopped using Canada as a relief valve.

[welch]

I'll say it is a combo of race/class, but my opinion is a bit different based on the history behind PP. The only babies that those politicians do care about is the bouncy white from middle (and up) classes. Also, they do not want to subsidize anything that is not big industrials and the war machine. They really don't care too much that brownies are aborting as much as they hate "footing the bill". Back in the day, the island of Puerto Rico was used as testing grounds for population control. I believe most American taxpayers knew about it. There was no internet. lol

Fair point.

[JackSkeptic]

Please somebody remind me when was it that Eric The Bassist gave this place "the benefit of the doubt"?
http://i.imgur.com/K6XDA1y.png

He was pretty much condemning this place from his first post.

Fix that bitch up.

PS. eric, you are a cunt.

Regards,
A woman

Okay, someone just pointed this out to me and I just wanted to make clear that Erik the Bassist (who came here to post) and UnknownEric (who is me, just your garden variety asshole) are two different people. I came, I saw, I didn't post. Well, until now that is.

Now I return you to your regularly scheduled bullshit.

Thanks you for the clarification. Perhaps you should be doxed so we don't make the same mistake again? Joking aside if that ever happened from a post here I would consider the Slympit a bunch of immoral hypocrites. But right now that's how I consider FtB.

[JAB]

Just for fun:

[youtube]-4EDhdAHrOg[/youtube]

[welch]

Really, because I'd guess that $2k american is a significant portion of most peoples salaries.

Compared to the cost of having the child and then raising it? People can find a way.


Why is this even relevant, Abortion will not be re-illegalized. Any reversal would at most return the decision to the states(which would still be bad).

The bigger issue is for the poor who can't afford the travel, and the young, who might not have the ability for other reasons.

It's not all that relevant. It's just fucking weird that people attempt to frame it as a class issue. Like the rich would hypothetically love flying over to a foreign country just so their wives and daughters can access that healthcare, because they can afford it or whatever.

Not commonly known fact: for a short time, I was president of the UND NARAL chapter. I actually did a lot of research on who the abortion ban really directly affected, and by and large, that was more based on class. Again, you're not an american, your knowledge of certain facts is going to be small. People in this country, right now, mind you, not the very rich, do a rather large amount of going to other countries to get cheaper health care. it's become a bit of a cottage industry in Canada and Mexico, countries that you can get to via the hugely expensive method of *driving* if you choose. The only people really screwed over by making abortion illegal are the people for whom $2K IS a lot of money, but that is not 80% of the fucking population. For everyone else, they can, without going into the massive amounts of debt you think they surely must, go to where abortions are legal, and get one.

If you have the $2K, it is an inconvenience, not a ban. Facts, they are not on your side in this case.

You should probably quote some stats on that, because right now £1287.25 is almost about months pay-check for the average british worker. Paying that out, yeah it would be an inconvenience, but not just for the poor and the young. Really for most people.

Oh look, it's gone from WILL BANKRUPT YOU FOR YOUR LIFE to an inconvenience. Which is pretty much what I said. I mean really, do they not have "banks" or "savings accounts" in Britain? Do you stand in line to get your pay pack and keep it in your sock, or a mattress? No computers over there? Still back in 1947 are we?

Given we are talking about a procedure that costs about as much, if not less than a family vacation, and, living in the land of the mouse, I can assure you that millions of people, not among the super-rich somehow manage to afford the UNHOLY AMOUNT OF A FAMILY VACATION once a year.

It's not like you're getting an abortion every fucking pay period you nit-wit. My takehome is not $2K, yet, if I have to pay cash for a medical procedure that costs 2K, I could in fact manage that without eating bread crusts and misery for a year. You were just mistaken about the costs of this, now you're just being stupid because you can't admit you were wrong about it bankrupting all but the SOOPER RICH 4-EVAH.

I'm wondering though what you think the drive to ban abortion is. To repeal Roe vs. Wade. Do you really think they just want poor women to have loads of kids? Because it looks to me like they just want women to adhere to their bullshit religious doctrines.

not that this has anything to do with your error about the costs of an abortion, *but*, religion is pretty much at the heart of it. I don't however think they give a fuck about conversion. They just want everyone living under their rules. Because that's how fundies are. Actually, I've had more than a few Pro-life types tell me they didn't give a fuck about enforcement, because as it turns out, enforcement is really expensive. They just "want the law on the books". WTF?

[Altair]

http://www.freezepage.com/1370629636EXCRJGGHWN

In which Stephanie accuses Ron Lindsay of being influenced by MRAs, being their parrot or maybe even being an MRA himself. She also contradicts a couple points made by the SJWs in the past.

No one has really stood up for any of the content of the speech in any detail as far as I know, just made vague calls for the value of questioning and critical thinking that ignore the context of the talk.

This part bugged me, though, because it was a mystery:

And who decides what’s included within the scope of social justice anyway? What is the definition of social justice? I read a blog post by Louise Pennington the other day; she stated that although patriarchy may predate capitalism, we cannot destroy patriarchy w/o destroying capitalism. Is the destruction of capitalism considered part of a social justice program? If so, that position certainly has very significant implications.

Oh, well, if Louise Pennington says–what?! Who is Louise Pennington? What did she actually say? Why is it we are expected to be listening to her and engaging with her ideas? And why mention her at a secularism conference?

What are you saying, Stephanie? Ron Lindsay has to give reasons as to why we should LISTEN to Louise Pennington?
I thought we had to LISTEN TO THE WIMMINZ! If people actually have to provide logical and rational reasons to listen to and engage with a woman, the "shut up and listen" and "listen to women's experiences" become a very different situation, I think.

I am less concerned with the “what” of this part of Lindsay’s speech, however, than the “who”. Who is Louise Pennington to be someone we should discuss at WiS? Who is she, in particular, that we should put discussing her in front of the topics we came to talk about because Ron Lindsay said so?

Ah, so people need to have qualifications to earn the right to have their ideas discussed in a conference about women and feminism? Not just anyone can put their ideas about feminism or gender or whatever on stage and have them discussed?
I has a feeling Ophelia would disagree with that if it was put forth by someone else

(Responses are too long to include, but we all can imagine how things went for Sara Mayhew)

As much as this feels like picking on a blogger who is trying to gather an audience, it doesn’t seem that many other people know who Louise Pennington is either. She doesn’t seem to have broken out of the mass of mostly ignored bloggers that is HuffPo, probably because she’d contributed about a dozen posts total before this one. Some of her posts have failed to attract any comments, even at HuffPo. She isn’t someone whose work gets passed around.

Ouch. Wanna bet if a man said that about a woman it would be considered proof of misogyny. It is petty and mean to be snippy to someone who's not even directly involved in the discussion, but was mentioned by a third party, but you know, sisterhood and women standing together and that stuff :liar:

That is what’s bothering me now. How did a blog post known about by MRAs but not secular feminists end up in Lindsay’s speech? He didn’t just stumble across Pennington’s post.

Now, I doubt Lindsay reads AVfM himself. He’s acting like a touchy person who isn’t used to having his power or position challenged and isn’t willing or able to handle the situation professionally. He’s not acting like a men’s rights activist. I think he would be disgusted by what he found at AVfM, both in content and in the quality of “argument” presented.

The particular post was linked at AVFM, so there's an sly implication that Lindsay reads AVFM, while also insulting him as someone who is unprofessional and can't deal with criticism while at the same time being complimented by at least not being a MRA.

Others in this movement do, however, read AVfM. We know that. What we didn’t know is that these people had, directly or through intermediaries, enough influence with the CEO of CFI to have their radical feminist boggarts addressed in the opening speech of Women in Secularism while the real feminism of the speakers and audience, with thousands upon thousands of words written about it in just the year between conferences, was ignored or mischaracterized. I find that a deeply disturbing thought.

Ah, there are dark powers behind the situation. Someone influenced Lindsay to become an MRA parrot, because this man is utterly incapable of having his own ideas and thoughts, apparently. Also, Pennington is not a real feminist, because Stephanie says so.

As a final bonus, we have this comment by SeraphymCrash that shows that they are able (in their minds at least) to rewrite history even with a quote staring at them a little above

The problem is that Lindsay essentially sought out a controversial position many people would find unreasonable (especially when presented without argument, we do live in a capitalist society that has villified other economic systems) and presented it as a pillar of feminism to try and make feminism sound unreasonable

Of course, if we scroll back a bit, we find of course Ron's quote, which says exactly what Seraphym says, right? :roll:

I read a blog post by Louise Pennington the other day; she stated that although patriarchy may predate capitalism, we cannot destroy patriarchy w/o destroying capitalism. Is the destruction of capitalism considered part of a social justice program?

[JackSkeptic]

They make it sound like this horrible transgression. My opinion based on personal experience is that the two visits, the sonogram, the questions (they ask you, among other things, if you were coerced) and the whole enchilada is as big of a deal as having a root canal. Mine was done in Tuscaloosa. I always find it curious that I went twice and there was no one protesting outside. When I went to PP in Brooklyn to get my pills, I had to go through a metal detector.

Why would anyone protest a root canal? :rimshot:


In other news, my uncle has passed the night and is out of his coma, for now. My grandmother is getting a bit distressed and is accusing the hospital of not feeding/hydrating him. I had to take some time to explain IVs to her.

It's still not looking pretty, but a bit less gloomy than yesterday. At least, it will allow me to go and visit him tomorrow.

thanks everyone for the sympathies.

I'm sorry to hear that Phil.

To everyone else that is suffering my lack of condolences or support is because I always come across as insincere. Like many here, I suspect, we are all thinking of you.

[TheMudbrooker]

Um, I know this is a surprise, but going to Canada is not out of the realm of possibility for 80%-90% of women. Especially women with those weird "job" things who maybe have "savings". In addition, a first trimester in-clinic abortion at say a Planned Parenthood center coasts between $300 and $950. (http://www.plannedparenthood.org/health ... s-4359.asp)

Later period abortions cost more, but don't scale vertically by any means. Those are US costs, but Canadian costs seem to track that closely. (http://abortionincanada.ca/funding/)

Average cost of a plane ticket to say Toronto? From Tallahassee, it's under $600. (delta.com)

So, depending on the situation, it is not unrealistic to be able to travel to Canada, even if you don't drive, get a safe, legal abortion, and come home for right around $2K US. That's not change in the couch cushions money, but it's not going to drive you into debt for the rest of your life either. Abortion, moral issues aside, is a fairly simple procedure. It's not cancer treatment.

You're right, it's not impossible, but it's not as easy as you make it sound either.
First off, here's the source for the figures I'll be using: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Household_ ... ted_States
For a single wage earner in the U.S. the average (gross) wage is $30,000-40,000. To reach the median U.S. income of about $50,500 (gross) requires 1.3 incomes. That means that for the average American $2000 is 3-5 weeks worth of net (after taxes) pay. So, if you don't spend any money on anything for a month you could indeed come up with two grand. Of course that would put you a month behind on your rent/mortgage, insurance, car payment and any credit cards you might have, most of which will kick the interest up to a 30% penalty rate. Never mind things like food and transportation to and from work.
No, pulling a month's pay out your ass on short notice won't fuck you up for the rest of your life but you will be a long time digging out from under.

[cunt]

Oh look, it's gone from WILL BANKRUPT YOU FOR YOUR LIFE to an inconvenience. Which is pretty much what I said. I mean really, do they not have "banks" or "savings accounts" in Britain? Do you stand in line to get your pay pack and keep it in your sock, or a mattress? No computers over there? Still back in 1947 are we?

Did it go from WILL BANKRUPT YOU FOR YOUR LIFE? Hey no, I actually said it's likely fuck most people up for a few years, at best. But nice try.

Given we are talking about a procedure that costs about as much, if not less than a family vacation, and, living in the land of the mouse, I can assure you that millions of people, not among the super-rich somehow manage to afford the UNHOLY AMOUNT OF A FAMILY VACATION once a year.

It's not like you're getting an abortion every fucking pay period you nit-wit. My takehome is not $2K, yet, if I have to pay cash for a medical procedure that costs 2K, I could in fact manage that without eating bread crusts and misery for a year. You were just mistaken about the costs of this, now you're just being stupid because you can't admit you were wrong about it bankrupting all but the SOOPER RICH 4-EVAH.

Wow, so you're not getting an abortion every month, and this means that somehow missing out on almost a months worth of pay is always going to be inconsequential shit. Yeah, I suppose it helps that you're a middle class sys-op with a freelance wife.

not that this has anything to do with your error about the costs of an abortion, *but*, religion is pretty much at the heart of it. I don't however think they give a fuck about conversion. They just want everyone living under their rules. Because that's how fundies are. Actually, I've had more than a few Pro-life types tell me they didn't give a fuck about enforcement, because as it turns out, enforcement is really expensive. They just "want the law on the books". WTF?

Well yeah, almost as if they're not doing it along class lines, but are actually trying to punish women.

[Remick]

Just for fun:

[youtube]-4EDhdAHrOg[/youtube]

Outstanding.

[welch]

Um, I know this is a surprise, but going to Canada is not out of the realm of possibility for 80%-90% of women. Especially women with those weird "job" things who maybe have "savings". In addition, a first trimester in-clinic abortion at say a Planned Parenthood center coasts between $300 and $950. (http://www.plannedparenthood.org/health ... s-4359.asp)

Later period abortions cost more, but don't scale vertically by any means. Those are US costs, but Canadian costs seem to track that closely. (http://abortionincanada.ca/funding/)

Average cost of a plane ticket to say Toronto? From Tallahassee, it's under $600. (delta.com)

So, depending on the situation, it is not unrealistic to be able to travel to Canada, even if you don't drive, get a safe, legal abortion, and come home for right around $2K US. That's not change in the couch cushions money, but it's not going to drive you into debt for the rest of your life either. Abortion, moral issues aside, is a fairly simple procedure. It's not cancer treatment.

You're right, it's not impossible, but it's not as easy as you make it sound either.
First off, here's the source for the figures I'll be using: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Household_ ... ted_States
For a single wage earner in the U.S. the average (gross) wage is $30,000-40,000. To reach the median U.S. income of about $50,500 (gross) requires 1.3 incomes. That means that for the average American $2000 is 3-5 weeks worth of net (after taxes) pay. So, if you don't spend any money on anything for a month you could indeed come up with two grand. Of course that would put you a month behind on your rent/mortgage, insurance, car payment and any credit cards you might have, most of which will kick the interest up to a 30% penalty rate. Never mind things like food and transportation to and from work.
No, pulling a month's pay out your ass on short notice won't fuck you up for the rest of your life but you will be a long time digging out from under.

and again, how many abortions do you plan on getting in a year? 12? 6?

perhaps all the people who manage disney world vacations every year can explain to you how this works. It's not that difficult.

[TheMudbrooker]

Um, I know this is a surprise, but going to Canada is not out of the realm of possibility for 80%-90% of women. Especially women with those weird "job" things who maybe have "savings". In addition, a first trimester in-clinic abortion at say a Planned Parenthood center coasts between $300 and $950. (http://www.plannedparenthood.org/health ... s-4359.asp)

Later period abortions cost more, but don't scale vertically by any means. Those are US costs, but Canadian costs seem to track that closely. (http://abortionincanada.ca/funding/)

Average cost of a plane ticket to say Toronto? From Tallahassee, it's under $600. (delta.com)

So, depending on the situation, it is not unrealistic to be able to travel to Canada, even if you don't drive, get a safe, legal abortion, and come home for right around $2K US. That's not change in the couch cushions money, but it's not going to drive you into debt for the rest of your life either. Abortion, moral issues aside, is a fairly simple procedure. It's not cancer treatment.

You're right, it's not impossible, but it's not as easy as you make it sound either.
First off, here's the source for the figures I'll be using: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Household_ ... ted_States
For a single wage earner in the U.S. the average (gross) wage is $30,000-40,000. To reach the median U.S. income of about $50,500 (gross) requires 1.3 incomes. That means that for the average American $2000 is 3-5 weeks worth of net (after taxes) pay. So, if you don't spend any money on anything for a month you could indeed come up with two grand. Of course that would put you a month behind on your rent/mortgage, insurance, car payment and any credit cards you might have, most of which will kick the interest up to a 30% penalty rate. Never mind things like food and transportation to and from work.
No, pulling a month's pay out your ass on short notice won't fuck you up for the rest of your life but you will be a long time digging out from under.

and again, how many abortions do you plan on getting in a year? 12? 6?

perhaps all the people who manage disney world vacations every year can explain to you how this works. It's not that difficult.

Right, because just like a Disney vacation you can plan to get an abortion a year or so in advance and start saving up for it.