Nerds. Nerds EVERYWHERE...

[Skep tickle]

But still, it doesn't matter. It's a word, indeed one that has different interpretations & usages in different places and groups. Over-reacting and trying to shove it into a box with the cover on tight only gives it (for those who value such efforts) more of a forbidden status - more power to shock.

Sure.

But there is a counter-over-reaction, which is to (more or less) deny that it shocks.

By which I mean I think there are actually socio-psychological reasons why taboo language follows certain patterns of effect.

I think most taboo language falls into one or more of five categories:

Relating to bodily waste.
Relating to sex.
Relating to the foreign or social "other".
Relating to religion.
Relating to disease or deformity.

So "its a word" does seem to beg the question of why this sort of pattern exists. If these are just words, why do they tend to fall into these categories.

Yes, with bodily waste including not just urine & feces but also gas expelled other than through normal exhalation, and nasal drainage.

But the revulsion to all of these is pretty much taught, isn't it? Babies will play with their genitalia & bodily excretions given the chance, and young kids can make all sorts of vocalizations (within the language they've heard) but have to be taught what they should & shouldn't do - what's okay and what is "bad".

Revulsion to feces might develop over time if it's not taught (due to smell).

Presumably it'd be of evolutionary benefit (disease prevention) to keep feces far away from food & water, but it's not at all clear that humans have that degree of caution naturally about feces.

Distrust of foreign/other also presumably has an evo-psych basis, and young kids typically go through a fear-of-strangers phase, but the definition of in-group versus foreign/other is also taught.

So, I'm claiming that though it's common for cultures to develop taboos based on these features, the specific details of what's considered okay & what's completely unacceptable depends heavily on the culture the person is in.

And I think an instinct for preservation of one's reputation (often best achieved through impugning the reputation of others) is the main driver involved. Which may explain why "reduction to one's genitals" does carry a sting beyond mere flavor-of-the-month social mores.

Social fashions may well play a part, which is why accusations of religious nonconformity were once seriously impugning swear words, but now seem to be among the more quaint and inoffensive. "Damn you" is now pre-watershed in a way "fuck you" isn't.

But is management of your own reputation regarding your attitude to sex so socially malleable, and is it different for men and women?

Agree, "damn" has lost its sting (at least among those who aren't still stuck back at religious fundamentalism; I don't know about them).

Re sexual reputation, I'd look to evo psych once more - the differential investment of resources (esp biological) in reproduction, different "strategies" for success, seem like reasonable explanations for the underpinnings of differential views of "promiscuity" between men & women. (But of course that could be wrong.)

[Steersman]

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_A1ylk9o87TY/T ... stomes.jpg

You might be amused to know that Benson figures that that original aphorism about sticks and stones to be one of the worst ever invented - something she had said on the blog "Choice in Dying" (sadly deleted) some time ago.

But in passing, thanks for that bit about the upcoming "Imagine No Religion" conference in Kamloops. I'm kind of amused and intrigued about Friday's panel discussion: EVERYTHING YOU WANTED TO KNOW ABOUT FREE WILL BUT WERE DETERMINED NOT TO ASK - with Jerry Coyne. I hope if you're there for that that you post some details - I would have liked to have been there (unlikely but possible) to have asked him a question or two about it as I think he "isn't helping" much with a philosophy that isn't much less fatalistic than that espoused by Muslims - my comment to that effect on his blog probably being the proximate cause of him banning me.

In any case, if you were planning on driving up and hadn't done so before you might be interested in these "DriveBC" links - there are generally two routes up to Kamloops, the Coquihalla and the Canyon with the latter being more scenic but about an hour-and-a-half or so longer:
http://images.drivebc.ca/bchighwaycam/p ... w/341.html
http://images.drivebc.ca/bchighwaycam/p ... www/2.html

[DeepInsideYourMind]

Babies and children love toilet humour and insults, adults use fuck and cunt and bitch and slag and cock and wanker

Which do SJWs prefer ?? Yep

[DeepInsideYourMind]

We use 'cunt' with mates in the same way primitive tribes would face off against each other and brandish spears, before sitting down to break bread

Using a threatening gesture, and then seeing the response isnt aggression, is a part of basic nature to test if someone is friendly or not

"How are you, you cunt" can only be used to close friends, "wankererrrrr" can be used with friends, and "numpty" with acquaintances .... Each is a stronger form of challenge to verify the friendship

Can you use it to women? I probably wouldn't say "how are you cunt" to women, not because it is a gendered slur, but because it just doesn't fit and work as language ... "How are you, you old slag" or "you dirty little slut" both work fine though to women friends

[acathode]

'stupid' is ableist...so use 'ignorant' instead someone suggests, but wait! 'Ignorant' is an ableist slur where person X comes from! How can you look down on someone for simply not having access to the same information as you! Oh,and yes, people who use ableist slurs are 'annoying', but you can't use 'annoying' because it's ableist against people, such as those with autism, who don't understand social cues, and are likely to be annoying!

As I read the comments, it became clear that just about every vaguely critical sounding word could be construed as 'ableist' with the right mental gymanstics. Fuck, come to think of it, even positive words are slurs, because if you compliment someone you are communicating in a patronizing tone!

To me, it seems that the ones who genuinely believe in this stuff (as opposed to those who use it mainly as a silencing tactic) do it because they somehow believe that if we just get rid of the bad words, then people will not only no longer be able to insult others, they wont even be able to think bad toughs. It seems quite inspired with the very PoMoish idea of language as something that almost completely control us humans down, to our very though processes and even the way we perceive reality.

So yeah - I use "alright you cunt" in the same way as I might say "alright you reprobate" or even "alright mate".

Unless there are women about - in which circumstance the use of cunt does seem to have the same sort of impact as the Americans report.

In that it's a matter of serious offence.

Is it a "serious offense" because it's just too course language to use in "ladies company" though, or is it a serious offense because it actually is anti-woman? If it's the former, then it's really not relevant, because the the core argument isn't that "In the UK 'cunt' is used often freely", it's that "In the UK 'cunt' does not have any misogynistic meaning". I mean, I wouldn't use an insult like "you fucking spunkdribbling cockface" in company of (most) women either, but that doesn't mean it's misandristic...

Is there actually any implication that "being woman" is what makes being a cunt bad, or is it simply due to "cunts" being 'gross', in the same way arseholes and cocks are 'gross'? Compare it to say a word like "pussy", which at least to me is much, much, easier to actually argue is misogynistic. Being a pussy is bad because those who are pussies are girlish/feminine, ie. cowards. "Real men" aren't pussies, and so on. Does "cunt" really have any similar implication of women/femininity = bad?

[Skep tickle]

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_A1ylk9o87TY/T ... stomes.jpg

You might be amused to know that Benson figures that that original aphorism about sticks and stones to be one of the worst ever invented - something she had said on the blog "Choice in Dying" (sadly deleted) some time ago.

I hadn't known that about Benson but am not surprised.

But in passing, thanks for that bit about the upcoming "Imagine No Religion" conference in Kamloops. I'm kind of amused and intrigued about Friday's panel discussion: EVERYTHING YOU WANTED TO KNOW ABOUT FREE WILL BUT WERE DETERMINED NOT TO ASK - with Jerry Coyne. I hope if you're there for that that you post some details - I would have liked to have been there (unlikely but possible) to have asked him a question or two about it as I think he "isn't helping" much with a philosophy that isn't much less fatalistic than that espoused by Muslims - my comment to that effect on his blog probably being the proximate cause of him banning me.

Woulda been nice if you could go, we could have met. (Uh, and also you could have had a chance to attend & enjoy the conference.)

I'm not likely to ask questions at the Free Will panel discussion, not being passionate about the topic, but the title is great & I imagine I'll find something interesting in it (and hopefully amusing).

Shall I tell Jerry that Steersman says "hi"? :)

In any case, if you were planning on driving up and hadn't done so before you might be interested in these "DriveBC" links - there are generally two routes up to Kamloops, the Coquihalla and the Canyon with the latter being more scenic but about an hour-and-a-half or so longer:
http://images.drivebc.ca/bchighwaycam/p ... w/341.html
http://images.drivebc.ca/bchighwaycam/p ... www/2.html

Thanks for the info; I'd peeked at the map and wondered about the 2 routes.

BTW, one of your links goes to the BC Highway Cam for Jackass Mt. Summit, with Hell's Gate on the same page. Swear words - I am SO offended. :snooty:

[Dave2]

Yes, with bodily waste including not just urine & feces but also gas expelled other than through normal exhalation, and nasal drainage.

But the revulsion to all of these is pretty much taught, isn't it? Babies will play with their genitalia & bodily excretions given the chance, and young kids can make all sorts of vocalizations (within the language they've heard) but have to be taught what they should & shouldn't do - what's okay and what is "bad".

Maybe - but to me that seems almost Freudian - that propensities to natural inclinations develop as an infant ages seem apparent.

Revulsion to feces might develop over time if it's not taught (due to smell).

Presumably it'd be of evolutionary benefit (disease prevention) to keep feces far away from food & water, but it's not at all clear that humans have that degree of caution naturally about feces.

As far as I am aware cross cultural patterns of disgust exist towards general carelessness about feces. That the smell is offensive seems to exist cross-culturally, scat-eating seems to either exist in some cultures as fetish or extreme veneration of social superiors, but never as generally pleasurable activity.

I don't think we're likely to rule out disgust as social construction entirely - but the evidence strongly points to a natural discomfort with injury, excretion and - as you say to a lesser degree - mucus and flatulence.

Distrust of foreign/other also presumably has an evo-psych basis, and young kids typically go through a fear-of-strangers phase, but the definition of in-group versus foreign/other is also taught.

I'm far more pessimistic. Tajfel's minimal group experiments and similar studies do provide a great deal of evidence to the end that othering is both widespread, popular and even almost unconscious.

As a less scientific but more apparent example - the angry eye type exercises of Jane Elliot show just how easy it is for people to fall for, or conform to, othering - even when its clearly manufactured othering.

And there is some cross-cultural confirmation of this - its not simply W.E.I.R.D. and it's not simply a human thing.

Social attitudes obviously exacerbate or ameliorate the phenomena.

But because they do so to things that are clearly natural inclinations (social attitudes to diet can exacerbate or amliorate our desire for fat and sugar, for example) it becomes hard to say to what degree they account for the phenomena.

So, I'm claiming that though it's common for cultures to develop taboos based on these features, the specific details of what's considered okay & what's completely unacceptable depends heavily on the culture the person is in.

No doubt about it.

But - natural inclinations, and individual experiences, will be as/more/almost as important.

And I think an instinct for preservation of one's reputation (often best achieved through impugning the reputation of others) is the main driver involved. Which may explain why "reduction to one's genitals" does carry a sting beyond mere flavor-of-the-month social mores.

Social fashions may well play a part, which is why accusations of religious nonconformity were once seriously impugning swear words, but now seem to be among the more quaint and inoffensive. "Damn you" is now pre-watershed in a way "fuck you" isn't.

But is management of your own reputation regarding your attitude to sex so socially malleable, and is it different for men and women?

Agree, "damn" has lost its sting (at least among those who aren't still stuck back at religious fundamentalism; I don't know about them).

Re sexual reputation, I'd look to evo psych once more - the differential investment of resources (esp biological) in reproduction, different "strategies" for success, seem like reasonable explanations for the underpinnings of differential views of "promiscuity" between men & women. (But of course that could be wrong.)

The general view is that there is highly likely to be a measurable psychological difference in attitudes from sex between males and females deriving from a natural history in which female mammals bear a disproportionate energetic consequence of pregnancy, likely exacerbated by the fact that the female bipedal ape bears a significant risk to their life because of the trauma of childbirth (up until the advent of modern medicine, which has no real pertinence to genetic factors impacting on our psychology at this time).

Added to that the fact that it may well be evolutionary advantageous for a male to seek out a female who was relatively chaste for the purpose of long term mating.

But complicated by the fact that it may well be evolutionary advantageous for a male to seek out a promiscuous female for the purpose of short term mating.

Notions which seem to have masses of evidentiary support, but falling short of clear conclusions.

There does seem to be cross cultural difference in attitude to accusations of sexual adventurousness. In that men tend to big it up, and women tend to downplay it, that feeds into this narrative (but falling short of conviction). General male preference for youth is thought to be significant here, as is hip-to-waist ratio in women, or signs of physical strength in men, and so on and so on...

Given the quasi-scientific nature of the social sciences I'd think it is always going to be arguable, but because it's going to always be arguable the notion that the impact of sexual taboo on women vs men is merely, or mainly, a matter of social mores is always going to be somewhat incorrect.

[Skep tickle]

The most common situation in which I hear someone say "cunt" or "pussy" is when a woman uses it to refer to her own genitalia (at a clinic visit in which she has some gyn symptom or question we're discussing, and usually about to examine). It doesn't happen all that often (in my area of the US, my patient population) but these terms have the virtue of identifying pretty clearly the body part of concern as being vulva and/or vagina.

"Down there" is used more commonly but is less precise, thus engenders extra steps in the conversation & exam to sort out whether she is referring to genitalia, perineum, anus, or sometimes groin or upper thigh.

[Dave2]

Can you use it to women? I probably wouldn't say "how are you cunt" to women, not because it is a gendered slur, but because it just doesn't fit and work as language ... "How are you, you old slag" or "you dirty little slut" both work fine though to women friends

Well, dare I say you pretty much prove my point - If we as "Brits" have to ask these things then we clearly aren't as comfortable with aiming it at members of the opposite sex as we are with the fraternal "oi John you cunt" type stuff.

Personal feeling: In the UK men often use "cunt" as shorthand for "there aren't any women about - we can relax about the war of the sexes".

[dogen]

The most common situation in which I hear someone say "cunt" or "pussy" is when a woman uses it to refer to her own genitalia (at a clinic visit in which she has some gyn symptom or question we're discussing, and usually about to examine). It doesn't happen all that often (in my area of the US, my patient population) but these terms have the virtue of identifying pretty clearly the body part of concern as being vulva and/or vagina.

"Down there" is used more commonly but is less precise, thus engenders extra steps in the conversation & exam to sort out whether she is referring to genitalia, perineum, anus, or sometimes groin or upper thigh.

While we're strolling through this particular meadow of nomenclature -- can you enlighten a dirty foreigner as to why Ob./Gyn. is spelled out as O-B-G-Y-N in the USA?

[Skep tickle]

Drag performer Conchita Wurst wins Eurovision competition (or so the internet says:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/tvan ... ision.html

A Benson post on this could provlde some lulz.

[Mr Radio]

If i remember correctly improbable Joe has made the highly improbable claim that he is an ex marine. the only thing i suggest Joe has in common with a US Marine, is the creampies he eats out of his local whores ass.

I remember an old joke made about Marines (and it was switched around depending on what service you were in) being involved in the cookie-in-the-middle circle jerks. I can see Joe as being the cookie. Probably the closest he got to any Marine. I just can't see someone like him surviving any length of time as a Marine - he'd get blanket partied his first night at Basic.

One of the giveaways that someone is probably lying that they were in the Marines is if they call themselves an ex-Marine.

And Marines don't eat the creampies out of local whore/stripper asses. They marry them immediately and take housing in the Lance Corporal ghettos on base and lose rank and pay a year or two later for domestic assault after he comes home and finds his stripper wife with a jody.

[Dave2]

Is it a "serious offense" because it's just too course language to use in "ladies company" though, or is it a serious offense because it actually is anti-woman?

These clearly aren't mutual exclusives.

Further to my reply to Skep Tickle. If women are naturally inclined to be more guarded (as a whole) to attitudes regarding sex then reference to sexual activity could well be more stressful (again - on the whole).

If it's the former, then it's really not relevant, because the the core argument isn't that "In the UK 'cunt' is used often freely", it's that "In the UK 'cunt' does not have any misogynistic meaning". I mean, I wouldn't use an insult like "you fucking spunkdribbling cockface" in company of (most) women either, but that doesn't mean it's misandristic...

I think I'm at the risk of conflating two lines of objection here.

To me, some people seem to be suggesting "cunt's not a big deal in the UK". I would disagree, I would say that in my time as a UK resident (38 years since birth and with significant periods in places as different as Windsor, London, Nottingham and Belfast) my impression is that cunt is one of the stronger swears and people are generally very cagey about aiming it at women.

And as yet I don't think anyone has countered that.

A related but not the same issue is my notion that women may be more inclined to protecting their sexual reputations than men in general.

For reasons I tried to outline in my last post.

So in regard to me going to the pub with my mate John and saying "alright you cunt" - as far as I see it - no harm done.

But in regard to women generally feeling a particular sting when it comes to a word that leverages sex (and maybe even 2nd class citizenship) ***MAYBE*** there's more to it than just prissy social mores.

Is there actually any implication that "being woman" is what makes being a cunt bad, or is it simply due to "cunts" being 'gross', in the same way arseholes and cocks are 'gross'? Compare it to say a word like "pussy", which at least to me is much, much, easier to actually argue is misogynistic. Being a pussy is bad because those who are pussies are girlish/feminine, ie. cowards. "Real men" aren't pussies, and so on. Does "cunt" really have any similar implication of women/femininity = bad?

In my view - Maybe.

[DeepInsideYourMind]

Can you use it to women? I probably wouldn't say "how are you cunt" to women, not because it is a gendered slur, but because it just doesn't fit and work as language ... "How are you, you old slag" or "you dirty little slut" both work fine though to women friends

Well, dare I say you pretty much prove my point - If we as "Brits" have to ask these things then we clearly aren't as comfortable with aiming it at members of the opposite sex as we are with the fraternal "oi John you cunt" type stuff.

Personal feeling: In the UK men often use "cunt" as shorthand for "there aren't any women about - we can relax about the war of the sexes".

It doesn't work not because it is gendered but because it doesn't roll off the tongue, it isn't poetic

Precisely not your point

[Skep tickle]

The most common situation in which I hear someone say "cunt" or "pussy" is when a woman uses it to refer to her own genitalia (at a clinic visit in which she has some gyn symptom or question we're discussing, and usually about to examine). It doesn't happen all that often (in my area of the US, my patient population) but these terms have the virtue of identifying pretty clearly the body part of concern as being vulva and/or vagina.

"Down there" is used more commonly but is less precise, thus engenders extra steps in the conversation & exam to sort out whether she is referring to genitalia, perineum, anus, or sometimes groin or upper thigh.

While we're strolling through this particular meadow of nomenclature -- can you enlighten a dirty foreigner as to why Ob./Gyn. is spelled out as O-B-G-Y-N in the USA?

I can only guess. The "Ob" part is often written in capitals ("OB"), and the "Gyn" part is sometimes said rather than spelled.

So, "OB-Gyn" is said either as "O-B-G-Y-N" or as "O-B-guyn" (with hard g)

Some lay use of terms "gyno" or "gyne", I think.

[Snapfingers]

But the etymological, historical and geographical startingpoint of the discussion was Gervais saying Hitler was a cunt. If he had said "Hitler, what a nigger, eh?" It wouldn't have made any sense as a joke or been noted as a strange racist outburst. " Filthy jew" would have been a whole other joke but saying he was a cunt becuase his actions "got to me" can hardly make any sense as a gendered joke in any way.
If a friend of mine said cunt as a gendered slur i would probably take note of his sexism. But as they say in real estate: context, context, context.

[Dave2]

Can you use it to women? I probably wouldn't say "how are you cunt" to women, not because it is a gendered slur, but because it just doesn't fit and work as language ... "How are you, you old slag" or "you dirty little slut" both work fine though to women friends

Well, dare I say you pretty much prove my point - If we as "Brits" have to ask these things then we clearly aren't as comfortable with aiming it at members of the opposite sex as we are with the fraternal "oi John you cunt" type stuff.

Personal feeling: In the UK men often use "cunt" as shorthand for "there aren't any women about - we can relax about the war of the sexes".

It doesn't work not because it is gendered but because it doesn't roll off the tongue, it isn't poetic

Precisely not your point

So you could say something like "mate you're a fucking cunt" to men, but not to women because it's "not poetic"?

I hope no one sees that as credible.

[nippletwister]

Though American, I like to model my use of the word "cunt" after the sophisticated Australian style that I learned from the movies.


[youtube]xFOw_-5glqg[/youtube]

[DeepInsideYourMind]

So you could say something like "mate you're a fucking cunt" to men, but not to women because it's "not poetic"?

I hope no one sees that as credible.

I wouldn't call a female friend 'mate' either...

Yes, language is frequently (mostly) used as it is poetic, because timbre and tempo and rhythm and harshness and softness of speech convey far more than the words

[Za-zen]

If i remember correctly improbable Joe has made the highly improbable claim that he is an ex marine. the only thing i suggest Joe has in common with a US Marine, is the creampies he eats out of his local whores ass.

I remember an old joke made about Marines (and it was switched around depending on what service you were in) being involved in the cookie-in-the-middle circle jerks. I can see Joe as being the cookie. Probably the closest he got to any Marine. I just can't see someone like him surviving any length of time as a Marine - he'd get blanket partied his first night at Basic.

One of the giveaways that someone is probably lying that they were in the Marines is if they call themselves an ex-Marine.

And Marines don't eat the creampies out of local whore/stripper asses. They marry them immediately and take housing in the Lance Corporal ghettos on base and lose rank and pay a year or two later for domestic assault after he comes home and finds his stripper wife with a jody.

I know what you're refering to. That you're never an ex -unit. i don't think that old adage is correct. I'm an ex-unit. Probably took me years to refer to myself as that, but there comes a time when you put it in a box, usually many years after you should have put it in a box. It doesn't mean it's not still with you in your heart, part of your rhythm, but it gets set down, and you realize you're more than you were then, so you are an ex.

At least, I am. I don't hold it as tight as i did years ago.

[Suet Cardigan]

While we're on the subject of the word cunt:

[youtube]wJDI6ogdWbk[/youtube]

[Za-zen]

you know i actually feel sorry for someone afflicted by SJW'ism. i do believe it is a symptom of an underlying psychological dysfunction. I believe it is people looking for a reason to fail, a reason or an excuse to fail, which frees them from the responsibility of taking responsibility of their own destiny.

Fear is crippling. i think it is the root of SJW'ism is Fear is a persons worst enemy, it will paralyze you, and stop you from achieving anything. I think if SJWarriors were taught how to confront, manage, and realize the emptiness of their fear, they wouldn't be SJWarriors.

[welch]

you know i actually feel sorry for someone afflicted by SJW'ism. i do believe it is a symptom of an underlying psychological dysfunction. I believe it is people looking for a reason to fail, a reason or an excuse to fail, which frees them from the responsibility of taking responsibility of their own destiny.

Fear is crippling. i think it is the root of SJW'ism is Fear is a persons worst enemy, it will paralyze you, and stop you from achieving anything. I think if SJWarriors were taught how to confront, manage, and realize the emptiness of their fear, they wouldn't be SJWarriors.

It's the worst thing in the world for some people, not having anyone but themselves to blame for their failure.

[TiBo]

ps. whats wrong with the pit these last few days? Been very, very slow to load. DDoS? Broken tech-stuff somewhere?

Dreamhost. I am guessing a $9.95 "unlimited" plan on a shared host.

The pitt can't be chewing up that many cycles, unless IP address spam scanning happens to be chewing up too many cycles.

Lsuma, I am looking for a decent uptime host for a low bandwidth website for essentially scheduling events for a reasonably small group. Should I take it that dreamhost is a no-go?

I'm guessing something entirely different.

The preview/submit scripts (in opposite to mere viewing/listing tasks) include references to external sources, e.g. catching title tags in remote websites. Since these parts of the scripts running here aren't adapted properly (shorter timeout/asynchronous execution), they tend to slow everything down, whenever the remote sources react slowly.

[welch]

OMG POLAND!

[youtube]syMhJMmGEIc[/youtube]

[Mr Radio]

I know what you're refering to. That you're never an ex -unit. i don't think that old adage is correct. I'm an ex-unit. Probably took me years to refer to myself as that, but there comes a time when you put it in a box, usually many years after you should have put it in a box. It doesn't mean it's not still with you in your heart, part of your rhythm, but it gets set down, and you realize you're more than you were then, so you are an ex.

At least, I am. I don't hold it as tight as i did years ago.

The USMC has pushed this concept unofficially for decades, but recently, the Commandant of the Marine Corps made it official:

"A Marine is a Marine. I set that policy two weeks ago - there's no such thing as a former Marine. You're a Marine, just in a different uniform and you're in a different phase of your life. But you'll always be a Marine because you went to Parris Island, San Diego or the hills of Quantico. There's no such thing as a former Marine."

The Commandant of the Marine Corps, General James F. Amos

[Za-zen]

I know what you're refering to. That you're never an ex -unit. i don't think that old adage is correct. I'm an ex-unit. Probably took me years to refer to myself as that, but there comes a time when you put it in a box, usually many years after you should have put it in a box. It doesn't mean it's not still with you in your heart, part of your rhythm, but it gets set down, and you realize you're more than you were then, so you are an ex.

At least, I am. I don't hold it as tight as i did years ago.

The USMC has pushed this concept unofficially for decades, but recently, the Commandant of the Marine Corps made it official:

"A Marine is a Marine. I set that policy two weeks ago - there's no such thing as a former Marine. You're a Marine, just in a different uniform and you're in a different phase of your life. But you'll always be a Marine because you went to Parris Island, San Diego or the hills of Quantico. There's no such thing as a former Marine."

The Commandant of the Marine Corps, General James F. Amos

I wasn't a Marine. I understand what he means, i really do, but it is possible to be more. In my opinion you can end up holding on to what you were, and that can destroy you, taking ownership of what you no longer are, but nonetheless is part of making what you are, enables you to grow.

We're into psychobabble, the point is there are vets who call themselves Ex, i'm one, and my old unit has the same psychology, where you're never an Ex, i totally understand it, it's to do with brotherhood, loyalty, and shared experience. I understand it, i really do, because i don't diminish any facet of that, i feel it whenever i think about it, it's an intangible pride, but as you get older, you can let it go, whilst knowing that it was responsible for enabling you to let it go. That might sound like mixed up crazy, cause it is.

[Mykeru]

:lol: But bit of a stretch to see "douche" as anything more than a gratuitous insult, particularly absent any context; would sure like to know by what "logic" you manage to reach that conclusion ....

Shorter Steersman:

http://media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/236x/ ... 964869.jpg

"Come at me, bro"

[Phil_Giordana_FCD]

It's a fucking insult. Simple concept. Insulter makes the insultee feel bad. Or good, depending on context.

A popular greeting in my neck of the wood towards well-acquainted women is "ça va, connasse?" (what's up, cunt) with a strong southern accent. Rolls off the tongue. Exact same wording can be used for some woman cutting you off in a waiting line. Different connotation. Intent and stuff...

It's 4 am here, so please be indulgent.

[Mr Radio]

I understand it, i really do, because i don't diminish any facet of that, i feel it whenever i think about it, it's an intangible pride, but as you get older, you can let it go, whilst knowing that it was responsible for enabling you to let it go. That might sound like mixed up crazy, cause it is.

No disagreement here -- but the point I want to get across here is different -- and considering how both of us served, we know that if someone is trying to fake the funk about military service, then they're usually very easy for a veteran to detect. It's the little shit that they don't know which trips them up, like the two nickel distance between ribbons and the top pocket edge or (usually) the order of the ribbons/medals themselves.

[katamari Damassi]

It's a fucking insult. Simple concept. Insulter makes the insultee feel bad. Or good, depending on context.

A popular greeting in my neck of the wood towards well-acquainted women is "ça va, connasse?" (what's up, cunt) with a strong southern accent. Rolls off the tongue. Exact same wording can be used for some woman cutting you off in a waiting line. Different connotation. Intent and stuff...

It's 4 am here, so please be indulgent.

But social justice has taught us that intent isn't magic!

[Phil_Giordana_FCD]

But social justice has taught us that intent isn't magic!

But social justice has taught us jack shit.

[DeepInsideYourMind]

But social justice has taught us that intent isn't magic!

But social justice has taught us jack shit.

Bingo ... intent is absolutely everything, the words are meaningless

[Mykeru]

A popular greeting in my neck of the wood towards well-acquainted women is "ça va, connasse?" (what's up, cunt) with a strong southern accent.

http://rocksinmydryer.typepad.com/photo ... arlett.jpg

[Phil_Giordana_FCD]

What have we learned from SJWs:

-sexism is bad (gee, thanks mansplaining)
-racism is bad (gee, thanks whitesplaining)
-women are sacred (gee, thanks sister-punisher, gender-traitor)
-cunt is bad (gee, thanks Benson, Fogg...)
-Chernobyl is a great place to build a community (gee, thanks...A+, I guess)
-A+ is a serious endeavor (gee, thanks...A+, I guess)

[Phil_Giordana_FCD]

A popular greeting in my neck of the wood towards well-acquainted women is "ça va, connasse?" (what's up, cunt) with a strong southern accent.

http://rocksinmydryer.typepad.com/photo ... arlett.jpg

DAMN! French southern accent!

[Mykeru]

A popular greeting in my neck of the wood towards well-acquainted women is "ça va, connasse?" (what's up, cunt) with a strong southern accent.

http://rocksinmydryer.typepad.com/photo ... arlett.jpg

DAMN! French southern accent!

"I don't know what you said to my wife/sister here,"

http://mattrothphoto.com/blog/wp-conten ... mes162.jpg

"But I don't like it, frog-boy."

[Phil_Giordana_FCD]

How I always picture you, Mike.

[dogen]

A popular greeting in my neck of the wood towards well-acquainted women is "ça va, connasse?" (what's up, cunt) with a strong southern accent.

http://rocksinmydryer.typepad.com/photo ... arlett.jpg

DAMN! French southern accent!

I imagine that's a gravely rasp, brought on by a 50-a-day Gauloise habit and gout of the larynx due to too much foie gras. Amirite?

[Phil_Giordana_FCD]

We call that "early morning".

[Mykeru]

How I always picture you, Mike.

I'm a Northerner.

http://www.usastatestravel.com/images/nevy4.jpg

Born and bred.

[Mykeru]

I imagine that's a gravely rasp, brought on by a 50-a-day Gauloise habit and gout of the larynx due to too much foie gras. Amirite?

Not to mention all the tonsil hockey.

[Phil_Giordana_FCD]

We gave you the French Kiss. Like it or not (I do).

[Phil_Giordana_FCD]

No we didn't. It's just what it's called.

[Mykeru]

We gave you the French Kiss. Like it or not (I do).

http://f3.thejournal.ie/media/2013/06/pepe.gif

Thanks.

[Skep tickle]

OMG POLAND!

[.youtube]syMhJMmGEIc[/youtube]

Haha. (The version from the finals is good, too, but a little less fleshy.)

This is great. The man using feminine wiles to try to win Eurovision beats the women using feminine wiles to try to win Eurovision. Patriarchy FTW?

[dogen]

We gave you the French Kiss. Like it or not (I do).

That, and the French Disease. You garlic-munching cunts!

[Linus]

While we're on the subject of the word cunt:

[youtube]wJDI6ogdWbk[/youtube]

Took me a little while to realize the telemarketer was a soundboard. And now they're both soundboards. :lol:

[Dick Strawkins]

OMG POLAND!

[.youtube]syMhJMmGEIc[/youtube]

Haha. (The version from the finals is good, too, but a little less fleshy.)

This is great. The man using feminine wiles to try to win Eurovision beats the women using feminine wiles to try to win Eurovision. Patriarchy FTW?

In recent years there has been a common theme in Europe of large sections of the population trying to essentially troll the Eurovision song contest. It's widely held to be a bit of a joke by a lot of Europeans and aside from laughing at the petty nationalism during the voting section, few people worry that any good music is likely to be on show.
What tends to happen is that people enter 'joke' songs in the early rounds of the competition. Everyone knows the songs are not serious but that's not the point - the point is to try to get them into the main competition so that you can laugh at the reactions of the people who are taking the competition seriously.
I'm pretty sure this Austrian song got a lot of votes in this way - people from certain parts of Europe trolling the homophobes in Russia and the more religious parts of the continent.

[Skep tickle]

In recent years there has been a common theme in Europe of large sections of the population trying to essentially troll the Eurovision song contest. It's widely held to be a bit of a joke by a lot of Europeans and aside from laughing at the petty nationalism during the voting section, few people worry that any good music is likely to be on show.
What tends to happen is that people enter 'joke' songs in the early rounds of the competition. Everyone knows the songs are not serious but that's not the point - the point is to try to get them into the main competition so that you can laugh at the reactions of the people who are taking the competition seriously.
I'm pretty sure this Austrian song got a lot of votes in this way - people from certain parts of Europe trolling the homophobes in Russia and the more religious parts of the continent.

Ahh. That would explain a couple of things.

[acathode]

In recent years there has been a common theme in Europe of large sections of the population trying to essentially troll the Eurovision song contest. It's widely held to be a bit of a joke by a lot of Europeans and aside from laughing at the petty nationalism during the voting section, few people worry that any good music is likely to be on show.
What tends to happen is that people enter 'joke' songs in the early rounds of the competition. Everyone knows the songs are not serious but that's not the point - the point is to try to get them into the main competition so that you can laugh at the reactions of the people who are taking the competition seriously.
I'm pretty sure this Austrian song got a lot of votes in this way - people from certain parts of Europe trolling the homophobes in Russia and the more religious parts of the continent.

For some it's super serious (esp. here in Sweden :bjarte:), but most (sane) just treat it as a joke. The thing though, even though they might not be "serious" and largely is just trolling the shit out of the whole "competition", it's not like they stand no chance of winning...

2nd place in 2012:
[youtube]WKNRGc71hjc[/youtube]
2nd place in 2007:
[youtube]hfjHJneVonE[/youtube]
Year before that, this won:
[youtube]gAh9NRGNhUU[/youtube]

[Dick Strawkins]

That cunt threat on Pharyngula is hilarious. :lol:

https://web.archive.org/web/20140511061 ... rit-crazy/

Peezus comes off as a complete fanny, telling British people how to use their own language.

Has he ventured onto Ally Foggs blog yet to dic(k)tate terms to him too?

Some more thoughts on the matter.

1. The friendly use of the term 'cunt' in certain contexts in particular English speaking countries is probably irrelevant to real question of whether cunt is misogynistic (virtually any swear word can be used as a rough greeting amongst sweary friends.)

2. The British people who post on Pharyngula are heavily skewed towards rather well-off sheltered types.
Cunt is a common swear word in the UK but probably more frequently used by working class people rather than middle class.
I've never heard anyone there use it as a misogynistic shorthand for all women.
It's a generic and very rude swear word.

3. It is used by British comedians - even lefty PC comedians like Eddie Izzard - when they are being particularly sweary.

"I hate Mrs Thatcher because she's a cunt. I apologise for using that word....Thatcher"

4. The argument that the worst swear word is a word for a vagina - therefore it's misogyistic to use it, is ridiculous.
First, it is arguable that the word 'cunt' is far from the worse swear word.
'Nigger' brings far more reaction and has much worse consequences for the person that used it (if they are white!)
If we briefly ignore judging the badness of a word by how TV stations react to it and think about the word cunt in the real world I would suggest that you would get a far worse reaction in a tough pub by calling someone a 'pussy' rather than calling them a 'cunt' (and, while pussy can be a word for vagina, the insult pussy is derived from pussy cat - and means a weak docile person - probably not the ideal thing to say to someone who has the possibility to immediately glass you in the face.)

Besides, the word 'twat' also means vagina, and yet it is considered a mild insult, akin to 'idiot' or 'dick'.
So a vagina based insult doesn't necessarily equate to the worst insult possible - at least not in the UK.

If it does in the US then perhaps PZ should be asking why this is the case rather than sitting on his high horse looking down on those poor uneducated foreigners and condemning them for having failed to see the light.

5. I see a lot of issues of class snobbery in this debate. In my experience working class language tends to be coarser than upper class and 'cunt' is far more prevalently used as an insult. Now there may be some kind of connection between education levels, income and the use of sexist language but it seems distasteful to ignore the question of class. Poorer people tend to have ecocomically difficult lives and work in tougher environments where swearing is the norm. To pick on the use of a fraction of these swear words (which in the UK at least are used fairly interchangeably) seems to be operating at a level of privilege that the condemned will never experience.
When someone says, as they did on that pharyngula thread: "I’m British and I can’t remember the last time I actually heard someone say the word", it suggests someone who is incredibly sheltered. It's almost like an American saying "I can’t remember the last time I actually heard someone say the word "asshole".

6. A lot of people seem to be confused about what a swear word is. It's mental slap in the face that tells the insulted person that you have no respect for them. If someone insults another person by calling them a cunt (or a twat, of a fucktard) the swear word does the heavy lifting of showing them how little respect they have for them.
Cunt, as a swear word signifies "horrible person who I have no respect for"
And so do other strong swear words like "fucktard" or "asshole."
Most of the arguments on pharyngula or Butterflies and Wheels seem to be based on the premise that if they have swear words they never use (like cunt or twat) then they are free to use whatever other swear words why want but they have given themselves a right to claim offense at the others use of swear words.
In effect, however, it's really just two groups calling each other asshole.

[Hunt]

Probably the best argument to ply against Pz right now is that he's playing American Cultural Imperialist because his entire case basically rest on his claim that no, no the word really is that bad in UK, Australia, etc. no matter what these horrible misogynists say. Ever the atheist Moses parting the sea of incorrectness, Pz knows best. Cultural Imperialist. That was the one screw manocheese was tightening with good effect--before he gave up from infuration.

[Dick Strawkins]

Probably the best argument to ply against Pz right now is that he's playing American Cultural Imperialist because his entire case basically rest on his claim that no, no the word really is that bad in UK, Australia, etc. no matter what these horrible misogynists say. Ever the atheist Moses parting the sea of incorrectness, Pz knows best. Cultural Imperialist. That was the one screw manocheese was tightening with good effect--before he gave up from infuration.

Cultural imperialist...

... and transphobic bigot!

http://i.imgur.com/yV6f7oQ.jpg

[Liesmith]

A popular greeting in my neck of the wood towards well-acquainted women is "ça va, connasse?" (what's up, cunt) with a strong southern accent.

http://rocksinmydryer.typepad.com/photo ... arlett.jpg

DAMN! French southern accent!

Oh, like this:

[youtube]gKH7YRHq3iQ[/youtube]

[DownThunder]

[youtube]gAh9NRGNhUU[/youtube]

Looks like Phil Giordana forgot to exfoliate that morning.

[bhoytony]

2. The British people who post on Pharyngula are heavily skewed towards rather well-off sheltered types.
Cunt is a common swear word in the UK but probably more frequently used by working class people rather than middle class.


5. I see a lot of issues of class snobbery in this debate. In my experience working class language tends to be coarser than upper class and 'cunt' is far more prevalently used as an insult. Now there may be some kind of connection between education levels, income and the use of sexist language but it seems distasteful to ignore the question of class. Poorer people tend to have ecocomically difficult lives and work in tougher environments where swearing is the norm. To pick on the use of a fraction of these swear words (which in the UK at least are used fairly interchangeably) seems to be operating at a level of privilege that the condemned will never experience.
When someone says, as they did on that pharyngula thread: "I’m British and I can’t remember the last time I actually heard someone say the word", it suggests someone who is incredibly sheltered. It's almost like an American saying "I can’t remember the last time I actually heard someone say the word "asshole".

I was just thinking this myself after reading all that "I live in the UK and I never hear people say cunt in front of women" stuff.

I live in an ex-coalmining village and I hear it all the time, not just in front of the women, but by the women. This forum and most of the online sceptical crew has a very large middle-class majority as far as I can see. A lot of people assume everybody is like themselves, but just reading this blog I can see very few have a similar background to me.

[Mr Radio]

Probably the best argument to ply against Pz right now is that he's playing American Cultural Imperialist

Wouldn't work. British culture is pasty white patriarchal culture and subject to whatever criticism they dream up. Now if it was some backwards, murderous, stone-age third-world tribe, that argument you pose would work if PZ and his ilk were ever to have them in their crosshairs -- but it would never come to that.

[Skep tickle]

That cunt threat on Pharyngula is hilarious. :lol:

https://web.archive.org/web/20140511061 ... rit-crazy/

Peezus comes off as a complete fanny, telling British people how to use their own language.

Has he ventured onto Ally Foggs blog yet to dic(k)tate terms to him too?

Some more thoughts on the matter.

<snip good stuff>

This is one situation where the class aspect is going to remain unexamined over there, isn't it? As they cover their ears and go la-la-la.

And of course the whole thing brings up the same old problem of who decides which words are okay to use and which ones aren't - and presumably (they wish), which thoughts are okay to have and which ones aren't. Oh, wait, my bad - PZ & Ophelia are the supreme moral arbiters, how could I forget.

Reminder to lurkers, Ally Fogg's recent blog included this:

I offend people, on a fairly regular basis, I know I do. I cannot write about the topics I cover without offending people from time to time with my ideas or my language. I swear a lot, including calling people cunts (note to US-based readers, where I grew up we pretty much use that word as a punctuation mark.)

FWIW, this clip looks casually at American vs Australian reactions to "cunt" and has the younger guys referring to the affectionate nature of "cunt" (at least at times) that I recall some Aussie mentioning at some point in the past:

[youtube]fMxamN5zmBQ[/youtube]

(The scene at the end is staged, 99.8% sure.)

[Skep tickle]

That cunt threat on Pharyngula is hilarious. :lol:

https://web.archive.org/web/20140511061 ... rit-crazy/

Peezus comes off as a complete fanny, telling British people how to use their own language.

Has he ventured onto Ally Foggs blog yet to dic(k)tate terms to him too?

Some more thoughts on the matter.

<snip good stuff>

This is one situation where the class aspect is going to remain unexamined over there, isn't it? As they cover their ears and go la-la-la.

And of course the whole thing brings up the same old problem of who decides which words are okay to use and which ones aren't - and presumably (they wish), which thoughts are okay to have and which ones aren't. Oh, wait, my bad - PZ & Ophelia are the supreme moral arbiters, how could I forget.

Reminder to lurkers, Ally Fogg's recent blog included this:

I offend people, on a fairly regular basis, I know I do. I cannot write about the topics I cover without offending people from time to time with my ideas or my language. I swear a lot, including calling people cunts (note to US-based readers, where I grew up we pretty much use that word as a punctuation mark.)

FWIW, this clip looks casually at American vs Australian reactions to "cunt" and has the younger guys referring to the affectionate nature of "cunt" (at least at times) that I recall some Aussie mentioning at some point in the past:

[youtube]fMxamN5zmBQ[/youtube]

(The scene at the end is staged, 99.8% sure.)