Nerds. Nerds EVERYWHERE...

[deLurch]

Blueshiftrhino posted something similar, but neither of you guys are accounting for the fact that Ogvorbis claims he was 12 when he committed the alleged rapes. If his act had been uncovered at the time it likely would have been handled in juvenile court, and it seems hard for me to believe that this wouldn't affect the statute of limitations.

Unless the state of the act is known, it is difficult to know what the laws are.

[katamari Damassi]

I concur. I don't think Damion is as bad or as horrible as every makes him out to be. Yes, he likes to debate matters from all sides. Yes, he crossed the doxxing line a bit, which was caught by the mod. But people are currently debating the line here.

Of all the horrible people in the world Damion isn't one of them.

Two days ago, I would have agreed. Abbie is someone I have met IRL and have a great deal of respect for. Since she seems to have a good relationship with Damion, I was inclined to cut him some slack. But, his performance last night changed that.

For someone who fancies himself the smartest guy in the room, Damion isn't very bright. In playing out his above-it-all-I'm-the-only-true-skeptic schtick, he is trying to tar the Pit with the same brush as FTB regarding the coddling of an admitted rapist in the Ogvorbis situation. However, I would venture to say no one here thinks Oggie is telling the truth. (Show of hands. Who here believes Oggie really did what he said?) So why Damion thinks we are hypocrites for not reporting a crime we don't think actually happened beggars belief. He either is too dull to get that or he does understand but, nonetheless, is willfully creating a situation to make us look like hypocrites. Stupid or conniving are our choices here. Neither is particularly becoming.

I didn't read all of the Damion posts because I got the impression right away that he was trolling. IIRC. He has his own blog where he can dox Ogvorbis to his heart's content, but would rather it happen here so he can point his finger and "TU QUOQUE!"

[BlueShiftRhino]

If a dox falls on a blog and no-one is there to read it, does it make any sound and still count as a dox?

[CaptainFluffyBunny]

Mykeru - You do know that folks are winding you up in the hopes that you'll lash out against PZ ... that they are hoping this and using you because they're all too weak to do anything themselves ... yes? Good. Carry on. Literally.

Mykeru, you're doing great. That not everybody likes your methods will be a given. This is the pit. I would shed rage tears and quiver helplessly should you not inform us here.

There is a divide here, and I understand why. It's not an easy or black and white situation. But while nobody speaks for the pit, what we do off-pit is our own concern.

[CaptainFluffyBunny]

Pfff...I was hating on Damion before it was cool.

[Gumby]

Mykeru - You do know that folks are winding you up in the hopes that you'll lash out against PZ ... that they are hoping this and using you because they're all too weak to do anything themselves ... yes? Good. Carry on. Literally.

:lol:

Wow.

Really?

:?

[Casual Nemesis]

Holy shit, are we at it again, wondering if we should have a time out, sit in the corner with our thumbs swirling around our assholes and think about it some more until we reach a state of zen apathy? Didn't we do this last time when doing something about the Radford situation -- bringing in AVfM to get the word out and fill the war chest -- was met with the same response?

Happy to be the guy who gets shit for doing. This time, because I've got a bad case of deja vu, I'm not going to apologize, explain or argue about it.

For what it's worth, both Myers and Hensley have the same thing going for them. They both use their IRL name, occupation, and place of employment online as leverage for credibility. As a result, their actions reflect not only upon them, but on those institutions as well. Most institutions are very protective of their reputations, and do not look favorably upon their members displaying toxic behavior in the public sphere (especially when the institution's name is drug along for the ride), and most of them appreciate being notified discreetly about those types of actions. Doing so is in no way doxing. It is seen as a hardball move, and in any business would be seen as legitimate considering Myer's behavior over the last year or so.

I agree with Mykeru's actions regarding contacting U Morris. I have been working on a letter/email that gives a few examples of his more embarrassing behaviors (along with links), along with my hopes that his behaviors do not create too much of a problem for their reputation.

His behavior is auto-toxic as well as exo-toxic, and he is suffering it's consequences. Shining a greater light on the rot is not inappropriate IMO; it is a way to bring greater awareness to the problem that is PZ Myers.

[BlueShiftRhino]

Someone should (help) gather all of the recent specifics where PZ has misrepresented and/or attacked a person Bill Nye is likely to know and/or respect. Links to such would be very useful. These could then be made into a Change.Org petition and/or template email. Here's what occur to me:

misrepresentation and attack on NdGT
misrepresentation and attack on Dawkins
misrepresentation and attack on Harris

but I don't have good links for any, because I don't keep track of this stuff.

[Cunt of Personality]

Bye, fucking neck brace!

(There still is a small fracture that hasn't healed completely yet, but the surgeon is willing to give it a chance. Other cool stuff: after my next visit in November, he may issue me a written approval for skydiving again!)

Cool story bro. Avatar Pic, or it didn't happen.

[Gumby]

I didn't read all of the Damion posts because I got the impression right away that he was trolling. IIRC. He has his own blog where he can dox Ogvorbis to his heart's content, but would rather it happen here so he can point his finger and "TU QUOQUE!"

Damion's trying to put us in a damned if we do damned if we don't situation.

If we allow Oggy to be doxxed here, then he can accuse of us willfully violating one of our most basic rules.

If we don't allow Oggy to be doxxed here, then he can accuse us of protecting a child rapist.

Either way, he can sit on his lofty perch and cast his disapproving glare down upon us.

Damion is a fat bloated disingenuous prick.

[Opyt]

Mykeru:
Mine isn't a case of "zen apathy"; I'd rather not feed them the SJL currency of victim points. If Skep requested it, I'd do it. Much more importantly, I do not want to give them any ammunition to use against Skep or anyone else for that matter.

At the very least, I'm glad you're doing something. I also have no doubts that my stance has already been dismissed as "cowardice" by you.

The last time I used the word "cowardice" was applied to P.Z. Myers' actions, not towards anyone in this discussion. So your use of quotation marks is bullshit.

Fair enough. I'm terrible with strawmen.

Probably should have used "apathy" in place of it.

[Casual Nemesis]

I didn't read all of the Damion posts because I got the impression right away that he was trolling. IIRC. He has his own blog where he can dox Ogvorbis to his heart's content, but would rather it happen here so he can point his finger and "TU QUOQUE!"

Damion's trying to put us in a damned if we do damned if we don't situation.

If we allow Oggy to be doxxed here, then he can accuse of us willfully violating one of our most basic rules.

If we don't allow Oggy to be doxxed here, then he can accuse us of protecting a child rapist.

Either way, he can sit on his lofty perch and cast his disapproving glare down upon us.

Damion is a fat bloated disingenuous prick.

I still suspect that Oggy is nothing but a long-running POE troll. Something about his shtick just seems too 'cute' to me. He continually manages to cultivate victim points with them even though he has claimed to be guilty of one of their most egregious sins.

[Eskarina]

I didn't read all of the Damion posts because I got the impression right away that he was trolling. IIRC. He has his own blog where he can dox Ogvorbis to his heart's content, but would rather it happen here so he can point his finger and "TU QUOQUE!"

Damion's trying to put us in a damned if we do damned if we don't situation.

If we allow Oggy to be doxxed here, then he can accuse of us willfully violating one of our most basic rules.

If we don't allow Oggy to be doxxed here, then he can accuse us of protecting a child rapist.

Either way, he can sit on his lofty perch and cast his disapproving glare down upon us.

Damion is a fat bloated disingenuous prick.

What he forgets, though, is that if HE knows Oggie's identity and believes his story to be true, then HE is the one protecting a child rapist.

If he doesn't believe Oggie's story, then there is no child rapist.

[Dave2]

Someone should (help) gather all of the recent specifics where PZ has misrepresented and/or attacked a person Bill Nye is likely to know and/or respect. Links to such would be very useful. These could then be made into a Change.Org petition and/or template email. Here's what occur to me:

misrepresentation and attack on NdGT
misrepresentation and attack on Dawkins
misrepresentation and attack on Harris

but I don't have good links for any, because I don't keep track of this stuff.

Joe Rogan -
http://web.archive.org/web/201306290941 ... xperience/

Amazing Atheist - http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/ ... ts-do-too/

[Gumby]

What he forgets, though, is that if HE knows Oggie's identity and believes his story to be true, then HE is the one protecting a child rapist.

If he doesn't believe Oggie's story, then there is no child rapist.

In any case, Lord Damion tried to doxx Oggy, and got caught. Lulz.

I switched over to the "Iggy's bullshitting" camp a long time ago. Whether he's a very dedicated troll or he suffers from some kind of Munchausen's syndrome is anyones guess.

[mikelf]

I didn't read all of the Damion posts because I got the impression right away that he was trolling. IIRC. He has his own blog where he can dox Ogvorbis to his heart's content, but would rather it happen here so he can point his finger and "TU QUOQUE!"

Damion's trying to put us in a damned if we do damned if we don't situation.

If we allow Oggy to be doxxed here, then he can accuse of us willfully violating one of our most basic rules.

If we don't allow Oggy to be doxxed here, then he can accuse us of protecting a child rapist.

Either way, he can sit on his lofty perch and cast his disapproving glare down upon us.

Damion is a fat bloated disingenuous prick.

Well put. In a way, Damion is our oolon.

[Gumby]

Oggy, not Iggy. Fucking autocorrect.

[John D]

I didn't read all of the Damion posts because I got the impression right away that he was trolling. IIRC. He has his own blog where he can dox Ogvorbis to his heart's content, but would rather it happen here so he can point his finger and "TU QUOQUE!"

Damion's trying to put us in a damned if we do damned if we don't situation.

If we allow Oggy to be doxxed here, then he can accuse of us willfully violating one of our most basic rules.

If we don't allow Oggy to be doxxed here, then he can accuse us of protecting a child rapist.

Either way, he can sit on his lofty perch and cast his disapproving glare down upon us.

Damion is a fat bloated disingenuous prick.

What he forgets, though, is that if HE knows Oggie's identity and believes his story to be true, then HE is the one protecting a child rapist.

If he doesn't believe Oggie's story, then there is no child rapist.

Exactly... and this is why he is a giant ass-hat. There are only a few ways to take this:

1) He thinks that the best way to seek justice is with a public shaming and public attack... thus the only solution is to dox. The pit is definitely not a place for people who believe in public shaming for justice... we are about truth, free speech, and the law.

2) He gets his jollies from whipping up drama so he tried to tempt us to break our own rules.

3) He is too scared to turn information into the police about a potential felon so tried to get someone else to do it.

Hmmmmm.... I can't think of any other possibilities right now. There are probably more, but I think it is number 2. He is just a trolling dick-weed.

[JacquesCuze]

No keyboard today and I don't have any patience with phones, so you're all in luck, but using someone's weaknesses against them is martial arts, not becoming the monster. It's killing with kindness. Taking their argument to the logical extreme.

I think bay area science which does not have an event harassment policy should have one. Once they have one, the petition against Becky will be much stronger.

I think university presidents should be held personally legally liable for their clery reports and once they are, sued into oblivion for the discrepancy between the clery reports they turn in, and the 1 in 5 statistics they cite in their speeches. (As Michael Crow, president of ASU likes to do)

Adria Richards is piggy backing out Kathy Sierras account to slam 4 Chan, so I say fine and encourage Richards to take moot on directly in a debate or forum.

PZ defames and doxes people? Write letters to the student paper, or take out ads in the student paper or the Morris sun tribune. Give links , ask questions, to then let the students and his peers do some work.

SJW taking over atheism? Take feminist theory head on at conferences. Describe the schism and the tactics directly at conferences.

[windy]

it appears athiests don't have the balls to do a #gamergate and stand up to the bullies

Yes, atheists totally dont have the balls to start a twitter hashtag... oh wait

https://twitter.com/hashtag/ftbullies

Or maybe what we really need is a petition, a manifesto to show they don't speak for all women... oh wait

viewtopic.php?p=95716#p95716

(What happened to that Skeptic Woman site, anyway?)

[sinister]

Windy, yoy look very silly right now. Maybe you should read a little more about GamerGate.

[katamari Damassi]

Well put. In a way, Damion is our oolon.

Ouch! That's gonna leave a mark.

[Lsuoma]

Oggy, not Iggy. Fucking autocorrect.

Ah, I thought you meant Oggy Pip.

[CaptainFluffyBunny]

I don't think it's wrong to pursue avenues against Myers & Co, but I understand those that think it is pointless or counterproductive. I don't think slamming either side here is going to do anything besides amuse the baboons (Hi, you fucking hypocritical baboons!). YMMV.

Slamming d4m1On or whatever the fuck his 'clever' nym is, is just totes lulz though.

[John Greg]

Some wise points argued with calm and promoting an intelligent, sense-based process:

tina:

I like that the pyt is a collection of ornery cussed shitlords that take responsibility for their own faces/faeces. Do what you will, but make the pyt into something that has a corporate strategy has its downside.

BSR:

People are very different on-line vs IRL, even those who don't use nyms. So, yes, I'm asking for evidence that PZ's internet actions have a link to what he does at UMinn Morris.

Please note that I'm just doing what we all say we're supposed to do: gather and examine evidence before concluding and acting. I WANT to do something. I just want to make sure that what I do is warranted, effective, and unlikely to cause collateral damage.

Gumby:

Anything else is angry pitchfork-rattling at this point, liable to do more harm than good. Charging in all drunk on emotion is a stupid thing to do.

Some less wise points argued with some anger and promoting an anger-based, revenge using the enemy's weapons and methods:

The Let's unleash the dogs of war speeches from Brive and, to a lesser degree, sinister.

Listen, Brive and sinister, I like both you guys, and think you have a lot of really intersting things to say and to offer some of us lesser minds here at the Pit. But eye for eye, and using the enemy's weapons, just does not cut it. UInless, of course, you are actually willing to absolve yourself of the higher moral ground, throw your ethics to the wind, and just jump into the mud and throw it all away.

I understand and feel your anger, I really do, but we don't want to become that which we abhore and condemn. Ever.

[windy]

Windy, yoy look very silly right now. Maybe you should read a little more about GamerGate.

I know about GamerGate, moron, I'm pointing out that many atheists have already tried the responses that they allegedly don't have "balls" to do. But for whatever reason they didn't achieve critical mass like Gamergate did.

[Tribble]

You seriously don't see a difference between offence and reactive self defence.

Ok.

I do. But reactive self-defense in doxxing or trying to get people fired isn't the right course of action. The best way, IMO, is simply point out the hypocrisy and not let it slide. This is the time for the MLK approach, not the Joe McCarthy approach. Shame them with your dignity and the facts in places they don't control.

Let them continue to act like the toxic shitlords they are. Show their hypocrisy.

You won't convert the 'true believers' but people will see the difference.

[Tribble]

Not pertaining to the current topic of villagers lighting torches, but whatever.

When Damion rode in on his high horse yesterday, he remarked that he had found Ogvorbis's real name in a mere 15 minutes, and loftily said (paraphrased) "but you don't see me posting it anywhere, do you?"

Then a bit later, he tries to slip some information onto the Pit that could have been used to locate Oggie's name, info that I tedacted.

His final post of the evening was a sneering remark about how we're supposedly protecting the identity of a child rapist.

TL;DR: Damion is a fucking hypocrite who wanted us to do his doxxing for him, so he could remain on his high horse, superior to all, while still getting what he wanted. He didn't want to get his own hands/blog/twitter feed dirty, but was more than willing to try to dirty up another site.

That should tell everyone everything they need to know about Damion.

Yeah, he's just a Myers wanna-be. I may have even said so, thought I tend to just scroll on by his useless speak-out-of-both-sides-of-his-mouth BS.

[Z-WolfOfTheAlphabet]

Show of hands. Who here believes Oggie really did what he said?

O is just clever enough to make his confessions seem fake. I'm inclined to think he is speaking some truth. There is just the kind of self-destructiveness in it you wouldn't expect otherwise.

[Guest]

Male Privilege

[sinister]

Windy, yoy look very silly right now. Maybe you should read a little more about GamerGate.

I know about GamerGate, moron, I'm pointing out that many atheists have already tried the responses that they allegedly don't have "balls" to do. But for whatever reason they didn't achieve critical mass like Gamergate did.

Show me the hard push from the A / S community that GG has done, and we can talk about who has balls. GamerGate is vastly more than a hashtag. That's the only way what you originally said makes any sense. You said made a hashtag and left out, oh, 90% of their other work and achievements. Yes, I noticed you changed that up when I called you on it.

[Tribble]

You guys understand at UM Morris PZ has power over people future lives correct? You guys have segmented the world into rigid little boxes where no interaction can occur. Even though we have seen that just isn't so.

Now you worry yourselves sick conflating calling someone's CO because he says you don't have Twitter PTSD, and informing a college that a professor has just used his authority to try to harm someone because they disagree with him on the internet. Does a student have to be hurt before something is said? Do more people have to be doxxed first? When has it gone too far?

It's a Liberal Arts campus. He's there because the kids have to take a science class. He teaches, maybe, 30-to-40 kids a semester. Most of whom are third-tier students that aren't listening to anything he has to say as they text their friends during his lectures (if they show up) and just cram for the exams.

Like every other General Program Introductory science course. I mean, let's face it, he's no Dick Feynman giving Physics 101 lectures that were so well done that graduate students would sneak into them. And UMM is no CalTech.

As for harming a student. That's highly improbable. He may be an asshole on the Internet and a blow-hard on campus, but he knows where the line is. And if he actually harmed a student, he could find himself unemployed and unemployable really damn fast.

[Southern]

Show of hands. Who here believes Oggie really did what he said?

O is just clever enough to make his confessions seem fake. I'm inclined to think he is speaking some truth. There is just the kind of self-destructiveness in it you wouldn't expect otherwise.

I still believe it is totally fake. He's milking Pezzus & friends for sympathy points, and everybody else for victim points. I still can't really put together his motivation, except he may find this so funny, he's not going to blow it over anytime soon.

[Southern]

Windy, yoy look very silly right now. Maybe you should read a little more about GamerGate.

I know about GamerGate, moron, I'm pointing out that many atheists have already tried the responses that they allegedly don't have "balls" to do. But for whatever reason they didn't achieve critical mass like Gamergate did.

Show me the hard push from the A / S community that GG has done, and we can talk about who has balls. GamerGate is vastly more than a hashtag. That's the only way what you originally said makes any sense. You said made a hashtag and left out, oh, 90% of their other work and achievements. Yes, I noticed you changed that up when I called you on it.

I think you're ignoring one little thing: gamers are everywhere. Atheists a minority hated everywhere. Specially because a big chunk of the SJW crowd self-identifies itself as atheist. So to the world at large, the #FTBully phenomena is just "those insufferable atheists being mean to each other, because they totes don't have Lord Jeebuz on their hearts".

It's not the only factor, but I think it's an important distinction.

[AndrewV69]

Meanwhile:



(Milo writes for Bredibart)

[Removed tags to remove personal information - Gumby]

[Zenspace]

Not pertaining to the current topic of villagers lighting torches, but whatever.

When Damion rode in on his high horse yesterday, he remarked that he had found Ogvorbis's real name in a mere 15 minutes, and loftily said (paraphrased) "but you don't see me posting it anywhere, do you?"

Then a bit later, he tries to slip some information onto the Pit that could have been used to locate Oggie's name, info that I tedacted.

His final post of the evening was a sneering remark about how we're supposedly protecting the identity of a child rapist.

TL;DR: Damion is a fucking hypocrite who wanted us to do his doxxing for him, so he could remain on his high horse, superior to all, while still getting what he wanted. He didn't want to get his own hands/blog/twitter feed dirty, but was more than willing to try to dirty up another site.

That should tell everyone everything they need to know about Damion.

Bingo. Mr. Gumby nails what should have been patently obvious to everyone else. Fortunately, most of you would rather piss on Damion than respond to his bullshit, so to works out either way. :lol:

I've been doing my best to keep up with the latest DoxxGate and I share the frustration exhibited. Personally, I'm in the Mykeru camp of real world paybacks for real world shit flinging, but the practical options seem limited. The Pyt has been an effective thorn in Peezus' side for years now and his latest steaming pile is just more evidence of his growing desperation as venues continue to be cut off from him. A good part of the credit for that douchbag's shrinking circle of influence is due to the Pyt's ongoing efforts. My main concern is that SkepTickle experiences little or no blowback IRL because Peezus got a taste of his own medicine and felt the need to hurt someone in retaliation to puff up his pathetic self.

You may now return to your regularly scheduled Pyttishness. Carry on.

[James Caruthers]

You seriously don't see a difference between offence and reactive self defence.

Ok.

Your manifesto seemed to be carefully making a case for using nerve gas in response to being attacked with nerve gas. You could do that, you might be right in doing so, but you cannot lay claim to any moral high ground in so doing.

YMMV, but...

Bullshit.

People who kill in self-defense take the moral high ground constantly, and are justified in doing so. They use the very same "tactic" as the person who was trying to kill them. Sometimes they even use a more dangerous weapon than the attacker.

The key moral difference is the one who kills in self-defense has no desire to cause harm, does not seek to cause harm to others (even people who mock or are rude) and is only killing to protect themselves, their loved ones, or to prevent anyone else from being killed by the would-be murderer.

[windy]

Windy, yoy look very silly right now. Maybe you should read a little more about GamerGate.

I know about GamerGate, moron, I'm pointing out that many atheists have already tried the responses that they allegedly don't have "balls" to do. But for whatever reason they didn't achieve critical mass like Gamergate did.

Show me the hard push from the A / S community that GG has done, and we can talk about who has balls. GamerGate is vastly more than a hashtag. That's the only way what you originally said makes any sense. You said made a hashtag and left out, oh, 90% of their other work and achievements. Yes, I noticed you changed that up when I called you on it.

No. I mentioned two examples of gamergate-like pushback, a hashtag and a petition. You jumped to the conclusion that I'm saying gamergate is only a hashtag. Did you follow the link to the Skeptic Woman petition and did you understand why I'd associate it with gamergate?

But as long as you feel like arguing with me, mind answering my question from above? How is your argument about REAL WORLD HARM not retroactively justifying Skep Tickle's doxxing and similar underhanded tactics? (PZ: "I think the *** hospital should know what one of their doctors does in her spare time, so I’m not going to shy away from mentioning her name.")

[Southern]

You guys understand at UM Morris PZ has power over people future lives correct? You guys have segmented the world into rigid little boxes where no interaction can occur. Even though we have seen that just isn't so.

Now you worry yourselves sick conflating calling someone's CO because he says you don't have Twitter PTSD, and informing a college that a professor has just used his authority to try to harm someone because they disagree with him on the internet. Does a student have to be hurt before something is said? Do more people have to be doxxed first? When has it gone too far?

It's a Liberal Arts campus. He's there because the kids have to take a science class. He teaches, maybe, 30-to-40 kids a semester. Most of whom are third-tier students that aren't listening to anything he has to say as they text their friends during his lectures (if they show up) and just cram for the exams.

Like every other General Program Introductory science course. I mean, let's face it, he's no Dick Feynman giving Physics 101 lectures that were so well done that graduate students would sneak into them. And UMM is no CalTech.

As for harming a student. That's highly improbable. He may be an asshole on the Internet and a blow-hard on campus, but he knows where the line is. And if he actually harmed a student, he could find himself unemployed and unemployable really damn fast.

Agreed 100%. Not only Peez is considerably more subdued IRL (some could call him a coward, like ol' grumpy Mykeru, and for a reason - Gelatto Guy comes to mind), but he would be spitting on his own plate. He may be a contemptible fucker, but a complete idiot he isn't.

That's why we'll never see him making good of his "threat" of going stabby against Christians trying to convert him - can you imagine he losing his mind to the point where he would get arrested? Peez wouldn't kill even in self-defense, because he's so much of a pussy. That's why he's such a macho stud on the internet, and I think that explains a lot why Matt's post hit a deep, painful nerve.

Now, you may say that armchair psychoanalysis is bullshit, but I'll point to you that, in my country, while Psichology and Psichiatry are medical professions and require that you are registered in the proper Order, Psychoanalysis has no such status, so I'm as qualified as Peez to give him free psychoanalysis consultation over the internet. And to those pointing that he gave me no such consent, this can be explained as serial rape and stochastic terrorism. Trust me, I'm a psychoanalist, I know these things.

[free thoughtpolice]

I was so angry I considered going on a doxxing spree, but pyty stayed my hand.

[sinister]

I think you're ignoring one little thing: gamers are everywhere. Atheists a minority hated everywhere. Specially because a big chunk of the SJW crowd self-identifies itself as atheist. So to the world at large, the #FTBully phenomena is just "those insufferable atheists being mean to each other, because they totes don't have Lord Jeebuz on their hearts".

It's not the only factor, but I think it's an important distinction.

Maybe if that was what was said the OP wouldn't be asinine. Pretty much any post can seem reasonable if you, after the fact, tack on a bunch of things not written.

GamerGate has done more harder, louder, and didn't wait around for someone else to act. All of this 'we need more people to see this' nonsense is a punt. At some time, someone, will have to act. You're still waiting years later. Gamers came out swinging and haven't stopped.Atheists hope confrence organizers will fix it all for them. "Maybe, if they just knew one more thing..."

Someday... someday...

[Tribble]

Pfff...I was hating on Damion before it was cool.

I took a pretty quick dislike to him early on. He thinks he's all so clever, but Jesus Christ on a Popsicle stick, I've seen his game before. It's not about 'getting to the core truth' but 'twisting shit into knots because I'm a troll who gets off on doing stupid shit like that.'

And while he's not the only one in the 'Pit that does that, he's a bigger-shit than most of those who play that game because he's plays his game then runs.

[deLurch]

I didn't read all of the Damion posts because I got the impression right away that he was trolling. IIRC. He has his own blog where he can dox Ogvorbis to his heart's content, but would rather it happen here so he can point his finger and "TU QUOQUE!"

Damion's trying to put us in a damned if we do damned if we don't situation.

If we allow Oggy to be doxxed here, then he can accuse of us willfully violating one of our most basic rules.

If we don't allow Oggy to be doxxed here, then he can accuse us of protecting a child rapist.

Either way, he can sit on his lofty perch and cast his disapproving glare down upon us.

Damion is a fat bloated disingenuous prick.

There is no damned if we do/damed if we don't scenario here. Rape is a serious crime. Serious crimes should be handled by the police, not vigilante Internet mobs. It is clearly a damned if we do situation.

[Tribble]

I didn't read all of the Damion posts because I got the impression right away that he was trolling. IIRC. He has his own blog where he can dox Ogvorbis to his heart's content, but would rather it happen here so he can point his finger and "TU QUOQUE!"

Damion's trying to put us in a damned if we do damned if we don't situation.

If we allow Oggy to be doxxed here, then he can accuse of us willfully violating one of our most basic rules.

If we don't allow Oggy to be doxxed here, then he can accuse us of protecting a child rapist.

Either way, he can sit on his lofty perch and cast his disapproving glare down upon us.

Damion is a fat bloated disingenuous prick.

Kafka-Trapping. I didn't write it, or name it, but it's a classic like of bullshit I've seen since my HS days in the late 1970s:

One very notable pathology is a form of argument that, reduced to essence, runs like this: “Your refusal to acknowledge that you are guilty of {sin,racism,sexism, homophobia,oppression…} confirms that you are guilty of {sin,racism,sexism, homophobia,oppression…}.” I’ve been presented with enough instances of this recently that I’ve decided that it needs a name. I call this general style of argument “kafkatrapping”, and the above the Model A kafkatrap. In this essay, I will show that the kafkatrap is a form of argument that is so fallacious and manipulative that those subjected to it are entitled to reject it based entirely on the form of the argument, without reference to whatever particular sin or thoughtcrime is being alleged. I will also attempt to show that kafkatrapping is so self-destructive to the causes that employ it that change activists should root it out of their own speech and thoughts.

My reference, of course, is to Franz Kafka’s “The Trial”, in which the protagonist Josef K. is accused of crimes the nature of which are never actually specified, and enmeshed in a process designed to degrade, humiliate, and destroy him whether or not he has in fact committed any crime at all. The only way out of the trap is for him to acquiesce in his own destruction; indeed, forcing him to that point of acquiescence and the collapse of his will to live as a free human being seems to be the only point of the process, if it has one at all.

This is almost exactly the way the kafkatrap operates in religious and political argument. Real crimes – actual transgressions against flesh-and-blood individuals – are generally not specified. The aim of the kafkatrap is to produce a kind of free-floating guilt in the subject, a conviction of sinfulness that can be manipulated by the operator to make the subject say and do things that are convenient to the operator’s personal, political, or religious goals. Ideally, the subject will then internalize these demands, and then become complicit in the kafkatrapping of others.

http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=2122

[Zenspace]

Congrats, Phil, but I assume that you kept the neck-brace for parties and such, yes? A round, hairless head should be mounted on something stiff, IMO.

:lol:

I missed the original backstory on the reason for the brace, but good to hear you are on the mend, Phil.

[Mykeru]

You seriously don't see a difference between offence and reactive self defence.

Ok.

Your manifesto seemed to be carefully making a case for using nerve gas in response to being attacked with nerve gas. You could do that, you might be right in doing so, but you cannot lay claim to any moral high ground in so doing.

YMMV, but...

Bullshit.

People who kill in self-defense take the moral high ground constantly, and are justified in doing so. They use the very same "tactic" as the person who was trying to kill them. Sometimes they even use a more dangerous weapon than the attacker.

The key moral difference is the one who kills in self-defense has no desire to cause harm, does not seek to cause harm to others (even people who mock or are rude) and is only killing to protect themselves, their loved ones, or to prevent anyone else from being killed by the would-be murderer.

Well, I may have to change my mind here. Maybe the high ground is the way to go. For example, I've noticed that Myers and FTB tend to use colorful, insulting language. I think, in order to "not be like themâ„¢" we should refrain from using insulting and derogatory language such as "that fat prick" and "the prune". I mean, don't we want to distinguish ourselves from their tactics? I would then suggest that, in order to act responsibly and professional, we only address P.Z. Myers by his full name or honorific: Professor Myers. And Oafie and Dust Cunt are right out and she should be referred to as Ms. Ophelia Benson.

And the photoshops. Really? Are we children here? We should only use authorized book-jacket type photos when discussing the people involved.

Keep High-Grounding, kids.

[Mykeru]

I missed the original backstory on the reason for the brace, but good to hear you are on the mend, Phil.

Phil injured his neck in a freak auto-fellatio accident.

[sinister]

[
No. I mentioned two examples of gamergate-like pushback, a hashtag and a petition. You jumped to the conclusion that I'm saying gamergate is only a hashtag. Did you follow the link to the Skeptic Woman petition and did you understand why I'd associate it with gamergate?

But as long as you feel like arguing with me, mind answering my question from above? How is your argument about REAL WORLD HARM not retroactively justifying Skep Tickle's doxxing and similar underhanded tactics? (PZ: "I think the *** hospital should know what one of their doctors does in her spare time, so I’m not going to shy away from mentioning her name.")

Certainly you posted the two most effective things they have done. Or at least two effective things. No one honestly would pick a couple of non-starters as a means to minimize their campaign and use that misrepresentation to play equivenancy fallacies.

Do you really think someone would do that? Just come into a forum, and dishonestly debate on the internet?

[Southern]

Oh, and while I'll pull up a Damon on the doxx matter and sit on the fence about going all out on Peezus & friends (oh show me your sugoi ways damon-sensei), because I can see pros and cons of both sides, I'll ask people willing to go ahead against Peezus to ask SkepTickle what she thinks of the matter first. Because, after all, it's her ass that Peezus is trying to tar and feather, and whatever you do may affect her one way or another.

[katamari Damassi]

There is no damned if we do/damed if we don't scenario here. Rape is a serious crime. Serious crimes should be handled by the police, not vigilante Internet mobs. It is clearly a damned if we do situation.

Also how do we know Damion has the right person? Call me paranoid but I wouldn't put it passed him to name some random guy in the hope that Pit gets into legal trouble. After all, he did try to use a sock when dropping the dox here.

[Dave2]

That's why we'll never see him making good of his "threat" of going stabby against Christians trying to convert him - can you imagine he losing his mind to the point where he would get arrested?

Is this a reference to him talking about stabbing a Christian who would prefer to pray for him rather than call an ambulance if he were to have a heart attack or something?

[paddybrown]

You seriously don't see a difference between offence and reactive self defence.

Ok.

I do. But reactive self-defense in doxxing or trying to get people fired isn't the right course of action. The best way, IMO, is simply point out the hypocrisy and not let it slide. This is the time for the MLK approach, not the Joe McCarthy approach. Shame them with your dignity and the facts in places they don't control.

Let them continue to act like the toxic shitlords they are. Show their hypocrisy.

You won't convert the 'true believers' but people will see the difference.

I agree. To throw in some cliches, sunlight is the best disinfectant, and the antidote to bad speech is better speech. We keep doing what we're doing. Don't let any shit slide, but call it out for the shit it is. Take every opportunity to show what cunts PZ and his cult are, and the message will get through.

Raging around like headless chickens because he's had a go at a girl in our gang, demanding others do what we want or they've got no balls - that's straight out of the Queen Bee playbook. Exploit male insecurity, in-group bias and the Damsel in Distress reflex until we do something stupid and let them off the hook. We need to be smarter than that. Mick Nugent's blog posts forensically dissecting PZ's vicious smear tactics are doing him far more damage than any rage-induced "real world action" ever could. Support him, and keep spreading the word.

[Zenspace]

I didn't read all of the Damion posts because I got the impression right away that he was trolling. IIRC. He has his own blog where he can dox Ogvorbis to his heart's content, but would rather it happen here so he can point his finger and "TU QUOQUE!"

Damion's trying to put us in a damned if we do damned if we don't situation.

If we allow Oggy to be doxxed here, then he can accuse of us willfully violating one of our most basic rules.

If we don't allow Oggy to be doxxed here, then he can accuse us of protecting a child rapist.

Either way, he can sit on his lofty perch and cast his disapproving glare down upon us.

Damion is a fat bloated disingenuous prick.

I still suspect that Oggy is nothing but a long-running POE troll. Something about his shtick just seems too 'cute' to me. He continually manages to cultivate victim points with them even though he has claimed to be guilty of one of their most egregious sins.

I'm waiting for Oggy to finally admit he is a long time mole and it turns out he is really Mykeru. :lol: :lol:

[JacquesCuze]

Oh, and while I'll pull up a Damon on the doxx matter and sit on the fence about going all out on Peezus & friends (oh show me your sugoi ways damon-sensei), because I can see pros and cons of both sides, I'll ask people willing to go ahead against Peezus to ask SkepTickle what she thinks of the matter first. Because, after all, it's her ass that Peezus is trying to tar and feather, and whatever you do may affect her one way or another.

Asking the victim is important, it's actually very important, but it shouldn't necessarily be definitive.

It places the responsibility for what happens on the victim, and often times, society should defend victims and prosecute crimes regardless of how the victim feels.

That said, it really is important to understand how the victim feels and why, for instance, the logic above is also why Mary Koss was allowed to create the original 1 in 4 rape stats when in fact few of the women there felt they had been raped.

[JacquesCuze]

Wearing the collar of shame in the canonical pet fashion might add some zip to a Halloween sexy cat costume. So too a shaved belly with fresh spay scar.

[blitzem]

noelplum99 weighs in:

[sinister]

Look all you Ophelia lites describing everyone who wants to act as overly emotional, or enraged, or whatever else allows you to ignore our points by repeating nice sounding platitudes can stop. You are no better telepaths than she. Plus, it's really strange to scold people for "stooping to their level," while stooping to their level.

[Garlix]

Oh, and while I'll pull up a Damon on the doxx matter and sit on the fence about going all out on Peezus & friends (oh show me your sugoi ways damon-sensei), because I can see pros and cons of both sides, I'll ask people willing to go ahead against Peezus to ask SkepTickle what she thinks of the matter first. Because, after all, it's her ass that Peezus is trying to tar and feather, and whatever you do may affect her one way or another.

From my highly authoritative position as an anonymous, unregistered interloper, I second, third and quadrangulate our Australavian comrade.

[windy]

[
No. I mentioned two examples of gamergate-like pushback, a hashtag and a petition. You jumped to the conclusion that I'm saying gamergate is only a hashtag. Did you follow the link to the Skeptic Woman petition and did you understand why I'd associate it with gamergate?

But as long as you feel like arguing with me, mind answering my question from above? How is your argument about REAL WORLD HARM not retroactively justifying Skep Tickle's doxxing and similar underhanded tactics? (PZ: "I think the *** hospital should know what one of their doctors does in her spare time, so I’m not going to shy away from mentioning her name.")

Certainly you posted the two most effective things they have done. Or at least two effective things. No one honestly would pick a couple of non-starters as a means to minimize their campaign and use that misrepresentation to play equivenancy fallacies.

Do you really think someone would do that? Just come into a forum, and dishonestly debate on the internet?

Um, do you want to try rephrasing that so it makes sense? :?

You seem to be arguing against some version of "Atheists have fought back just as effectively as gamers", which is a strawman of what I said.

And since you appear to have missed this part:

But as long as you feel like arguing with me, mind answering my question from above? How is your argument about REAL WORLD HARM not retroactively justifying Skep Tickle's doxxing and similar underhanded tactics? (PZ: "I think the *** hospital should know what one of their doctors does in her spare time, so I’m not going to shy away from mentioning her name.")

[Mykeru]

Oh, and while I'll pull up a Damon on the doxx matter and sit on the fence about going all out on Peezus & friends (oh show me your sugoi ways damon-sensei), because I can see pros and cons of both sides, I'll ask people willing to go ahead against Peezus to ask SkepTickle what she thinks of the matter first. Because, after all, it's her ass that Peezus is trying to tar and feather, and whatever you do may affect her one way or another.

Damn, I almost wanted to PM this rather than give the game away, but has it occurred to you that one purpose in pissing Peezus off is so he will not only be distracted from his original target, but now have to attack a far more hardened target?

No? Didn't occur to anyone?