Nerds. Nerds EVERYWHERE...

#52141

Southern wrote: I think you're ignoring one little thing: gamers are everywhere. Atheists a minority hated everywhere. Specially because a big chunk of the SJW crowd self-identifies itself as atheist. So to the world at large, the #FTBully phenomena is just "those insufferable atheists being mean to each other, because they totes don't have Lord Jeebuz on their hearts".

It's not the only factor, but I think it's an important distinction.

Yeah. I agree.

There are well over 100 million gamers in the US alone (59% of Americans) and something like over half the households in the US play video games with 51% owning at least one console. Gaming is, simply put, huge and ubiquitous. So when the loud, but a very small SJW minority that control the voice of a few gaming media outlets, half of which seem to be related to Gawker, get noisy...

So, with GamerGate, you had a tiny fraction of a huge population pushing back. And the push-back was huge in relation to the SJW crowd of, maybe, 20 assholes doing their shame-and-blame thing. So, from an asymmetrical-power, push-back standpoint, the gamers have the numbers to fight the good fight even though it was really just a tiny, tiny fraction of gamers who put up the good fight.

Atheists don't have those numbers for push back. Making it worse, is that they get even more pressure as the footprint of the media that derides them is much larger, not just a few 'gamer sites' owned by Gawker and a few sites that have some minor SJW infestation. Instead, we're talking all that and major media houses.

And that's a big difference.

#52142

Southern wrote:
Tribble wrote:
sinister wrote:You guys understand at UM Morris PZ has power over people future lives correct? You guys have segmented the world into rigid little boxes where no interaction can occur. Even though we have seen that just isn't so.

Now you worry yourselves sick conflating calling someone's CO because he says you don't have Twitter PTSD, and informing a college that a professor has just used his authority to try to harm someone because they disagree with him on the internet. Does a student have to be hurt before something is said? Do more people have to be doxxed first? When has it gone too far?
It's a Liberal Arts campus. He's there because the kids have to take a science class. He teaches, maybe, 30-to-40 kids a semester. Most of whom are third-tier students that aren't listening to anything he has to say as they text their friends during his lectures (if they show up) and just cram for the exams.

Like every other General Program Introductory science course. I mean, let's face it, he's no Dick Feynman giving Physics 101 lectures that were so well done that graduate students would sneak into them. And UMM is no CalTech.

As for harming a student. That's highly improbable. He may be an asshole on the Internet and a blow-hard on campus, but he knows where the line is. And if he actually harmed a student, he could find himself unemployed and unemployable really damn fast.
Agreed 100%. Not only Peez is considerably more subdued IRL (some could call him a coward, like ol' grumpy Mykeru, and for a reason - Gelatto Guy comes to mind), but he would be spitting on his own plate. He may be a contemptible fucker, but a complete idiot he isn't.

That's why we'll never see him making good of his "threat" of going stabby against Christians trying to convert him - can you imagine he losing his mind to the point where he would get arrested? Peez wouldn't kill even in self-defense, because he's so much of a pussy. That's why he's such a macho stud on the internet, and I think that explains a lot why Matt's post hit a deep, painful nerve.

Now, you may say that armchair psychoanalysis is bullshit, but I'll point to you that, in my country, while Psichology and Psichiatry are medical professions and require that you are registered in the proper Order, Psychoanalysis has no such status, so I'm as qualified as Peez to give him free psychoanalysis consultation over the internet. And to those pointing that he gave me no such consent, this can be explained as serial rape and stochastic terrorism. Trust me, I'm a psychoanalist, I know these things.

You mean like this?:

[youtube]UrIpPqcln6Y[/youtube]

#52143

katamari Damassi wrote:
deLurch wrote: There is no damned if we do/damed if we don't scenario here. Rape is a serious crime. Serious crimes should be handled by the police, not vigilante Internet mobs. It is clearly a damned if we do situation.
Also how do we know Damion has the right person? Call me paranoid but I wouldn't put it passed him to name some random guy in the hope that Pit gets into legal trouble. After all, he did try to use a sock when dropping the dox here.

No he didn't. Damion posted as Damion. The sock guy was a separate thing entirely.

#52144

Mykeru wrote:
Zenspace wrote:
I missed the original backstory on the reason for the brace, but good to hear you are on the mend, Phil.
Phil injured his neck in a freak auto-fellatio accident.

Do tell! Video? :popcorn:

#52145

Mykeru wrote:
Southern wrote:Oh, and while I'll pull up a Damon on the doxx matter and sit on the fence about going all out on Peezus & friends (oh show me your sugoi ways damon-sensei), because I can see pros and cons of both sides, I'll ask people willing to go ahead against Peezus to ask SkepTickle what she thinks of the matter first. Because, after all, it's her ass that Peezus is trying to tar and feather, and whatever you do may affect her one way or another.
Damn, I almost wanted to PM this rather than give the game away, but has it occurred to you that one purpose in pissing Peezus off is so he will not only be distracted from his original target, but now have to attack a far more hardened target?

No? Didn't occur to anyone?

Tactics? On teh interwebz?

:naughty: :lol:

#52146

paddybrown wrote:
I agree. To throw in some cliches, sunlight is the best disinfectant, and the antidote to bad speech is better speech. We keep doing what we're doing. Don't let any shit slide, but call it out for the shit it is. Take every opportunity to show what cunts PZ and his cult are, and the message will get through.

Raging around like headless chickens because he's had a go at a girl in our gang, demanding others do what we want or they've got no balls - that's straight out of the Queen Bee playbook. Exploit male insecurity, in-group bias and the Damsel in Distress reflex until we do something stupid and let them off the hook. We need to be smarter than that. Mick Nugent's blog posts forensically dissecting PZ's vicious smear tactics are doing him far more damage than any rage-induced "real world action" ever could. Support him, and keep spreading the word.

Agree 100%. It focuses on what we do best here, plus it has the added benefit of not exposing Skeppers to additional problems that charging around like the proverbial bull in a china shop might engender.

Plus, fuck that "if you don't do it my way you're a pussy" shit. Save it for the playground, tough guys.

#52147

Phil_Giordana_FCD wrote:Bye, fucking neck brace!

(There still is a small fracture that hasn't healed completely yet, but the surgeon is willing to give it a chance. Other cool stuff: after my next visit in November, he may issue me a written approval for skydiving again!)

Don't do it man.

http://i.imgur.com/pXCA7Vv.png

#52148

paddybrown wrote:
Tribble wrote:
Brive1987 wrote:You seriously don't see a difference between offence and reactive self defence.

Ok.

I do. But reactive self-defense in doxxing or trying to get people fired isn't the right course of action. The best way, IMO, is simply point out the hypocrisy and not let it slide. This is the time for the MLK approach, not the Joe McCarthy approach. Shame them with your dignity and the facts in places they don't control.

Let them continue to act like the toxic shitlords they are. Show their hypocrisy.

You won't convert the 'true believers' but people will see the difference.
I agree. To throw in some cliches, sunlight is the best disinfectant, and the antidote to bad speech is better speech. We keep doing what we're doing. Don't let any shit slide, but call it out for the shit it is. Take every opportunity to show what cunts PZ and his cult are, and the message will get through.

Raging around like headless chickens because he's had a go at a girl in our gang, demanding others do what we want or they've got no balls - that's straight out of the Queen Bee playbook. Exploit male insecurity, in-group bias and the Damsel in Distress reflex until we do something stupid and let them off the hook. We need to be smarter than that. Mick Nugent's blog posts forensically dissecting PZ's vicious smear tactics are doing him far more damage than any rage-induced "real world action" ever could. Support him, and keep spreading the word.

Nugent's blog posts may be doing him some kind of damage, but in the meantime the guy doesn't seem to think twice about doxing someone over some pretty harmless shit.

I think some people are conflating two different, although overlapping, goals - or maybe they have different goals entirely. One being to marginalize Myers to the point where he has no real influence, and the other being to declaw and defang Myers in some way so that he is less able or less apt to do actual damage to people IRL. I would agree that Nugent's blog, and similar more diplomatic approaches, are effective in furthering the first goal, but not the second. In order to accomplish the second goal, it's necessary to make it clear that there are serious consequences for fucking with people IRL, thereby changing the moral calculus or the cost-benefit analysis that justifies what he does.

Do you really believe that more blog posts will somehow convince this guy not to step over that line in the future? Or do you believe that's just unavoidable collateral damage?

#52149

And lets have some more Armstrong and Miller.

[youtube]afY4v0y4fL4[/youtube]

[youtube]CwfCBa6PSM[/youtube]

[youtube]AK84yRphzZs[/youtube]

#52150

If anyone has time for some AVFM drama as relayed by David Futrelle, there is a fun video out by John The Other explaining for the first time why he disappeared or was kicked out of AVFM in June even though for 2 - 3 years he had been 2nd in command and being about 15 years younger than Elam had others presuming he was soon to be named golden child and cult leader.

Futrelle:
https://archive.today/1ex64

John's Video:

Apparently John's sin was

+ complaining about Stefan Molyneux
+ complaining about Janet Bloomfield (Judgy Bitch)
+ complaining about one article by a trans man he felt was bullshit

Futrelle is accurate on at least one count

+ John has published several shit articles of his own

And I've pointed out at reddit, that several of John's articles do no one any good and are so full of "justice porn" that I doubted even he acted as he claimed he did.

I found John's video interesting in terms of AVFM drama, I think his points about Judgy Bitch are mostly wrong even though I find some of Judgy Bitch's tweets and other behaviors wrong and counterproductive on several occasions. Mainly, I think she needs to up her game and stop committing bush league errors.

If you watch this video as I did, you will be able to feel superior to

+ David Futrelle
+ John The Other
+ Janet Bloomfield
+ Stefan Molyneux
+ Paul Elam

:eusa-snooty:

By not watching this video, you can probably add me to the list above.

#52151

Gumby wrote:
katamari Damassi wrote:
deLurch wrote: There is no damned if we do/damed if we don't scenario here. Rape is a serious crime. Serious crimes should be handled by the police, not vigilante Internet mobs. It is clearly a damned if we do situation.
Also how do we know Damion has the right person? Call me paranoid but I wouldn't put it passed him to name some random guy in the hope that Pit gets into legal trouble. After all, he did try to use a sock when dropping the dox here.
No he didn't. Damion posted as Damion. The sock guy was a separate thing entirely.

Yes, the sock guy was me, let's not blame anyone else for that. I posted some links to the U. of M. website, as a guest. Again, I'm sorry and I know it was a shitty thing to do.

#52152

Mykeru wrote: Well, I may have to change my mind here. Maybe the high ground is the way to go. For example, I've noticed that Myers and FTB tend to use colorful, insulting language. I think, in order to "not be like themâ„¢" we should refrain from using insulting and derogatory language such as "that fat prick" and "the prune". I mean, don't we want to distinguish ourselves from their tactics? I would then suggest that, in order to act responsibly and professional, we only address P.Z. Myers by his full name or honorific: Professor Myers. And Oafie and Dust Cunt are right out and she should be referred to as Ms. Ophelia Benson.

And the photoshops. Really? Are we children here? We should only use authorized book-jacket type photos when discussing the people involved.

Keep High-Grounding, kids.

I was talking about Brive's proposal to dox horde members, not your phone callâ€”which I'm completely OK with (though plainly, you don't want or need my approval). To make my point as clearly as I can, why would we get upset at PZ doxxing SkepTickle if all we are going to do is the same thing back at PZ et al? The rest of your argument can have the answer it deserves.

#52153

Mykeru wrote:
Southern wrote:Oh, and while I'll pull up a Damon on the doxx matter and sit on the fence about going all out on Peezus & friends (oh show me your sugoi ways damon-sensei), because I can see pros and cons of both sides, I'll ask people willing to go ahead against Peezus to ask SkepTickle what she thinks of the matter first. Because, after all, it's her ass that Peezus is trying to tar and feather, and whatever you do may affect her one way or another.
Damn, I almost wanted to PM this rather than give the game away, but has it occurred to you that one purpose in pissing Peezus off is so he will not only be distracted from his original target, but now have to attack a far more hardened target?

No? Didn't occur to anyone?

Occured to me. Just dont think it will work.

Peezus may be an ass, but he has a bully's sense to shy away from a difficult target.

And I dont see why he would "have to attack."

Im not sure the value of distracting him either. He tends to make a statement once, and then let his horde, as well as the likes of Ophie and Zvan carry the ball further. If you can distract them, great, but distracting PZ at this point is pretty pointless.

All that said, however, I really dont have a problem with you contacting UMM. He uses their name in an attempt to give himself more gravitas (granted he has the standard disclaimer that all comments are his alone, but that only gets you so far IMnsHO) and they use his reputation to further their own. (See their touting his being named to to 100 scientists -hah!- on twitter.) As far as I am concerned, you havent conflated the virtual and the real-real, both PZ and UMM had done so already.

#52154

I think today can be a great example to disprove anyone who says that the pit indulges is groupthink or operates as one unit. I'm still of the opinion of wait it out. A phrase that has served me well in life is "let cooler heads prevail." There is a time and place for retaliation, but I do not think right now is that time. Should there be fallout onto Skep, then would be a more appropriate time.

And Mykeru, so far, I don't see anything actually escalating or "wrong" with your contacting UM. It was done as an individual, not as a group call out or let's get tons of people to gang up and try to pester the institution until they do something. In your call, you were actually rather respectful, restrained, and well reasoned. Call it a shoo-ing away of the pestering mosquito that is Meyers, not a full on emotion driven rage attack. No doxxing, no lying or misquoting or misappropriating.

As for the rest, what anyone does is up to them. I've never seen a groupthink consensus here on the Pit. I'm just offering my opinion.

And Phil.....how about a helmet cam your next jump?

#52155

paddybrown wrote:To throw in some cliches, sunlight is the best disinfectant, and the antidote to bad speech is better speech. We keep doing what we're doing. Don't let any shit slide, but call it out for the shit it is. Take every opportunity to show what cunts PZ and his cult are, and the message will get through.

Raging around like headless chickens because he's had a go at a girl in our gang, demanding others do what we want or they've got no balls - that's straight out of the Queen Bee playbook. Exploit male insecurity, in-group bias and the Damsel in Distress reflex until we do something stupid and let them off the hook. We need to be smarter than that. Mick Nugent's blog posts forensically dissecting PZ's vicious smear tactics are doing him far more damage than any rage-induced "real world action" ever could. Support him, and keep spreading the word.

I'm with paddybrown and others who have expressed similar views. The only legitimate claim to the moral highground comes from those who are actually on it. Besides, IRL actions can easily misfire: most probably, Myers's employer will do nothing and his die-hard followers will have new ammunition.

The key point, it seems to me, is to acknowledge that there is in fact a deep rift within the A/S community in the US, and that it is not possible to bridge it. SJWs have no relevant academics behind them, so shunning them from conferences and meetings will have an insignificant effect on content, and a salutary effect on ambience.

I don't recall who suggested signing a petition, but I think it's a good idea. There are too many urgent problems around the world to keep wasting time engaging idiots who are clearly incapable of recognising their biases, and the only way forward is to get rid of them once and for all. I'd also suggest that the petition is addressed at named people: PZ Myers, Ophelia Benson, Rebecca Watson, Adam Lee, and every single idiotic blogger out there.

Also, if possible, I'd suggest the title of this thread should be changed to read "Myers and Benson are doxxers" (or equivalent), so that all links to it carry the message.

#52156

CuntajusRationality wrote:
Gumby wrote:
No he didn't. Damion posted as Damion. The sock guy was a separate thing entirely.
Yes, the sock guy was me, let's not blame anyone else for that. I posted some links to the U. of M. website, as a guest. Again, I'm sorry and I know it was a shitty thing to do.

My mistake.

#52157

Gumby wrote:
Phil_Giordana_FCD wrote:Wait, did Damion really dox Oggie? I don't think he'd go that far. Inside joke?
He dropped some kind of ambiguous hint that could possibly lead to Oggie's real name. I wasn't taking the chance.

Now of all times is not the time to be playing giggly little games. Anyone wants to doxx someone can do it on their own site.
Not here.

I don't like being an asshole mod, but apparently it's babysitting time.

Ah hah! Now it all makes sense --- Gumby is ogvorbis!

#52158

BlueShiftRhino wrote:Mykeru - You do know that folks are winding you up in the hopes that you'll lash out against PZ ... that they are hoping this and using you because they're all too weak to do anything themselves ... yes? Good. Carry on. Literally.

:lol: Some folks have other motivations.

http://i.imgur.com/of34h4N.jpg

#52159

#52160

The moral high ground is an exellent place from which to throw down rocks and shit upon your enemies.

#52161

Fixed the comma thing, thanks Clarence.

#52162

I'm working on my letter to Bill Nye now and thought it would be useful to mention that he was actually a target at one point. I need help sourcing that though. Can any of you historians point me in the right direction?

#52163

Matt Cavanaugh wrote:
Gumby wrote:
Phil_Giordana_FCD wrote:Wait, did Damion really dox Oggie? I don't think he'd go that far. Inside joke?
He dropped some kind of ambiguous hint that could possibly lead to Oggie's real name. I wasn't taking the chance.

Now of all times is not the time to be playing giggly little games. Anyone wants to doxx someone can do it on their own site.
Not here.

I don't like being an asshole mod, but apparently it's babysitting time.
Ah hah! Now it all makes sense --- Gumby is ogvorbis!

Damn! I've been doxxed by a horse!

#52164

Grwd wrote:

Nice! Good work!

#52165

Mykeru wrote:
Zenspace wrote:
I missed the original backstory on the reason for the brace, but good to hear you are on the mend, Phil.
Phil injured his neck in a freak auto-fellatio accident.

Egregious lie right there! I do not fellate cars. Well, what brand are we talking about?

Celebratory dinner was 39.99 euros. I'm that classy.

#52166

Not a damn soul can tell me what actions would be "enough" for it to become acceptable to push back. None. Everyone talks about patience and blah blah blah, ignoring the fact that YEARS of patience and documenting and whining has been done already. How many people have been hurt in that time?

All because it's spent hoping that the right person will learn about the problem then "they make magic happen," YAY A / S is less toxic!

Who exactly are you trying to convince? When they are convinced then what? What exactly is the step after "raising awareness?"

#52167

Spike13 wrote:
Grwd wrote:
Nice! Good work!

I didn't post it...
But all I have to say to Watson is this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-8kmPJKGgM

#52168

Salon's balls dropped...

This is the same war on different fronts.

http://www.salon.com/2014/10/08/bill_ma ... socialflow

#52169

dog puke wrote: http://i.imgur.com/of34h4N.jpg

Really guys, was it necessary to leave in the sign with Mykeru's personal information? :naughty:

#52170

Mykeru wrote:
sinister wrote:Okay, I guess someone has to be "that guy" so, I'll do it.

First talking about doxxing PZ makes as much sense as doxxing Dawkins or Bono. He is a public figure using his standing not only in the atheist community, but as a college professor as reasons he is credibile. Mykeru has every right to make that call, as he too has been the victim (haha) of this behavior. I think you guys have comepletely run yourselves right up your own asses trying to claim the moral high ground here.

I was under the impression we were working towards making this nonsense stop. I get it, you want to be the good guy, and I agree and want the same! That, however, does not mean standing aside as harm is done to people. I am not talking about the utterly ridiculous lies and hate they spew online, I am talking about real world, finaicial and personal damage. When someone is acting outside of the internet to harm people, they don't remain "Nym's on a forum." You call the cops when you see credible threats online! You don't twiddle your thumbs and talk about how calling the cops is a bad idea because it could harm them personally. Utter nonsense!

When a public figure attacks people offline for online jokes, you push back in the real world. People don't have to sit idly by and watch someone victimize people because they post on an internet forum. When anyone starts causing real harm in the real world, you stop it. When someone in a position of power abuses that authority, you work to remove that authority! You have to be kidding me with this "don't call his college, because we are the good guys!" I am simply not following this pretend morality centered around the same bullshit we call the fence sitters on. There are consequences for hurting people, period. We aren't talking about name calling on the internet here! I just ... I can't even...

That is my peice. I am going to talk about this often to everyone online and off where the damage is being done.
Damn, I hate people whose only response is "this", but

THIS

My plan is to keep poking fun at Peezus until the finally cracks, bursts from his office into the snows of Morris, runs to Petsmart discarding articles of clothing along the way, then stands butt-naked in front of the fish tanks, repeatedly screaming, "Which one is Ariel?! Which one is Ariel?!" until the cops haul him away.

#52171

I lowered myself to skimming through some of the comments over at Adam Lee's blog. It is instructive to see how these lies get repeated over and over and even the most dubious rumor starts to morph into "fact". As background, someone (Dallas Hough) that was clearly mentally ill and decompensating posted a comment at PZ's blog claiming he had been raped by Michael Shermer. Even PZ apparently didn't believe it, and for once he did the right thing and had the authorities do a welfare check on someone that was clearly in mental distress. Although the monumental bonehead HJ Hornbeck repeated this as if it happened, the rest of the baboons probably realized it was just a delusion and kept quiet about it. Oolon digs it back up and posts it on Lee's blog.

Avatar
oolon Sally Strange â€¢ 10 days ago

That is what pushed me over the edge from thinking Nugent was a Dawkins fanboy and helpful idiot to outright nasty. Claiming he is taking the moral high road and helping the victms! When Alison and the other victim, Dallas Haugh, have both said they want it publicised. I don't think so Mick.
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#52172

Phil_Giordana_FCD wrote:
Mykeru wrote:
Zenspace wrote:
I missed the original backstory on the reason for the brace, but good to hear you are on the mend, Phil.
Phil injured his neck in a freak auto-fellatio accident.
Egregious lie right there! I do not fellate cars. Well, what brand are we talking about?

Celebratory dinner was 39.99 euros. I'm that classy.

But too cheap to go the extra cent, huh?

You look too human on your new avatar...

#52173

jet_lagg wrote:I'm working on my letter to Bill Nye now and thought it would be useful to mention that he was actually a target at one point. I need help sourcing that though. Can any of you historians point me in the right direction?

Have you seen this, JetLagg?

https://storify.com/Freshverbal/the-epi ... ypocrisy-o

#52174

windy wrote:
dog puke wrote: http://i.imgur.com/of34h4N.jpg
Really guys, was it necessary to leave in the sign with Mykeru's personal information? :naughty:

have you noticed the Laden? Because I just did, and it's doing something way wrong with my spleen.

#52175

Brive1987 wrote:.Peez is an utter Dr Mengle - not only doxxing (ie highlighting private info, publicly available, but not 'open') But also fucking inciting a mob to light torches and stampede the employer.

Wait, Mengele doxxed his patients? The bastard. What's this world coming to if you can't even trust the Nazis anymore.

#52176

John Greg wrote:Some wise points argued with calm and promoting an intelligent, sense-based process:

tina:

I like that the pyt is a collection of ornery cussed shitlords that take responsibility for their own faces/faeces. Do what you will, but make the pyt into something that has a corporate strategy has its downside.
BSR:

People are very different on-line vs IRL, even those who don't use nyms. So, yes, I'm asking for evidence that PZ's internet actions have a link to what he does at UMinn Morris.

Please note that I'm just doing what we all say we're supposed to do: gather and examine evidence before concluding and acting. I WANT to do something. I just want to make sure that what I do is warranted, effective, and unlikely to cause collateral damage.
Gumby:

Anything else is angry pitchfork-rattling at this point, liable to do more harm than good. Charging in all drunk on emotion is a stupid thing to do.
Some less wise points argued with some anger and promoting an anger-based, revenge using the enemy's weapons and methods:

The Let's unleash the dogs of war speeches from Brive and, to a lesser degree, sinister.

Listen, Brive and sinister, I like both you guys, and think you have a lot of really intersting things to say and to offer some of us lesser minds here at the Pit. But eye for eye, and using the enemy's weapons, just does not cut it. UInless, of course, you are actually willing to absolve yourself of the higher moral ground, throw your ethics to the wind, and just jump into the mud and throw it all away.

I understand and feel your anger, I really do, but we don't want to become that which we abhore and condemn. Ever.

Obviously you are free to disagree with my line. But "an anger-based, revenge using the enemy's weapons and methods" is not an accurate description of my approach.

I'm actually boringly calm and logical here. The moral opprobrium in my approach is on the other side. You state your moral preference, you drawn a pragmatic line in the sand and you tell the other guy "but hit the red button and see what happens". The responsibility lies with them not to cross the self evidently ethical line.

This happens all the time, break a rule and bad things, not normally on the table, happen. Cause and effect.

The real issue here is that many don't seem to think harassing employers on top of doxxing is a serious enough precedent on which to make a stand. And maybe it's not. Though I can't imagine what the next point of escalation could be? Maybe what you are really saying is that there is no point at which rubber should hit the road?

But I definitely did not say we should rush off and doxx people now, the only people with torches and wearing their crazy faces are the FtBers.

#52177

windy wrote: And since you appear to have missed this part:
But as long as you feel like arguing with me, mind answering my question from above? How is your argument about REAL WORLD HARM not retroactively justifying Skep Tickle's doxxing and similar underhanded tactics? (PZ: "I think the *** hospital should know what one of their doctors does in her spare time, so Iâ€™m not going to shy away from mentioning her name.")

Simple. It isn't a lie to say PZ harmed someone. PZ lied to harm someone. Was there a difficult question I am missing?

#52178

screwtape wrote:To make my point as clearly as I can, why would we get upset at PZ doxxing SkepTickle if all we are going to do is the same thing back at PZ et al?

If no-one had addressed this point before, then raising it as a question would be fine, but, to be blunt, I find the above really fucking annoying.

The difference is really simple: PZ mixes his job with his on-line activity. He uses his job-title on both his twitter feed and his blog, and his job uses his on-line activity as something to boast about.

SkepTickle does the exact opposite. She doesn't mix the two and wants them to be separate.

Thus, bringing PZ's job into this is not doing anything that he hasn't already done himself for years.

Bringing SkepTickle's job into this is doing something that she has never done and never wanted done.

Understand?

#52179

Brive, the problem, the primary problem and difference between your (and sinister's, for example) views and my views is what constitutes or, to use your metaphor, what it means for the rubber to hit the road.

Whose rubber and what are its constituents? :auto-dirtbike:

What road, and where is it going? :animals-dogrun:

My belief is that how an individual acts is generally their responsibility, so if you want to go the Mykeru route, that's fine; that's your business; that might even work to some small degree (though I have my doubts: CrackerGate?).

And I do agree with the arguments that outline how that is not the same thing as doxxing; however, I am also a bit confused as to its relevance: how does PeeZus's professional employment come into this (other than eye for an eye; weapons of the enemy)?

Anyway, back to the point: The overall sense I get from you and sinister is one of not objecting to adopting the enemy's weapons to battle the enemy (let's allow the colourful mataphoric language for now as it is somewhat apropos). And I do not, and cannot understand how becoming (even if only in part) that which you abhore is a good thing to do.

#52180

CuntajusRationality wrote: Nugent's blog posts may be doing him some kind of damage, but in the meantime the guy doesn't seem to think twice about doxing someone over some pretty harmless shit.

I think some people are conflating two different, although overlapping, goals - or maybe they have different goals entirely. One being to marginalize Myers to the point where he has no real influence, and the other being to declaw and defang Myers in some way so that he is less able or less apt to do actual damage to people IRL. I would agree that Nugent's blog, and similar more diplomatic approaches, are effective in furthering the first goal, but not the second. In order to accomplish the second goal, it's necessary to make it clear that there are serious consequences for fucking with people IRL, thereby changing the moral calculus or the cost-benefit analysis that justifies what he does.

Do you really believe that more blog posts will somehow convince this guy not to step over that line in the future? Or do you believe that's just unavoidable collateral damage?

http://movieboozer.com/wp-content/uploa ... otball.jpg

If you don't run up and kick that football in good faith, no moral high ground for you, buddy!

I mean seriously, if you send the message that you will not react when

-they reveal someone's private info to their internet hugbox attack squad
-they spread this private info via social media and their affiliate organizations
-they contact this person's employers and try to get them fired
-they try to ban people from speaking at conferences by lying about them
-they make up criminal accusations with no support and, rather than going to the police, spread these rumors over the internet
-they then demand internet justice for their rumors, which they again have not taken to the fucking police

When, exactly, will your morals permit you to defend yourself or others?

Even the fucking libertarians would consider the non-aggression principle roundly violated by this point.

Matt, make your next blog article 100 times more insulting, since you know old you-know-who will be watching. :lol:

#52181

Is there even a point in debating this?

If some people don't want to cross a certain line or, as they say "stoop to their level", that's fine by me. I haven't been lectured about the wrongness of my ways here yet, so I think I'm pretty safe in assuming I can do as I like regarding this matter, as an individual.

And so should everybody else.

#52182

katamari Damassi wrote:
deLurch wrote: There is no damned if we do/damed if we don't scenario here. Rape is a serious crime. Serious crimes should be handled by the police, not vigilante Internet mobs. It is clearly a damned if we do situation.
Also how do we know Damion has the right person? Call me paranoid but I wouldn't put it passed him to name some random guy in the hope that Pit gets into legal trouble. After all, he did try to use a sock when dropping the dox here.

No. Oggie has hung himself out to dry with very little room for error.

I think Damion was engaging in an experiment to see what the Pit would do. As I have made clear there are only two uses - none which is the default position or something creative, focused and determined, but carrying moral risk. But risk you could argue that is borne by FtB.

He didn't doxx anybody and by pointing the way provided us options we didn't have before. He is clearly no friend of the SJWs.

#52183

jet_lagg wrote:I'm working on my letter to Bill Nye now and thought it would be useful to mention that he was actually a target at one point. I need help sourcing that though. Can any of you historians point me in the right direction?

My letter only talks about PZ's own attacks (using misrepresentations) on well-known scientists and skeptics. I also admit to Bill that I'm biased and I'm hoping that he'll help the US A/S community by doing something during his visit, even if it's just not meeting with PZ. I purposefully do not bring up the attack by Zvan's husband on Bill because that wasn't done by PZ, himself, and requires the rather weak guilt-by-association and/or -inaction line. I simply provide a short summary of what PZ has done to folks that Bill will know (of) and then links, in case he wants more.

Piling on weak arguments can lower the impact of a letter, IMO. But that's just my opinion and suggestion.

#52184

Satan wrote:
Skep tickle wrote:Tough day, thanks everyone for moral support & kind words & thoughtful considerations about how to address the big picture situation (a hard nut to crack).
Please report the Skepchick Twitter account to Twitter if you haven't done so already. Twitter refuses to act on third party harassment complaints. However, if you complain, there is a remote possibility the Skepchick account could be suspended or banned. It's not much, but it would send a message that FTB-Skepchick abuse campaigns will have a cost to their PR infrastructures.

PZ Myers, otoh, has tweeted a blanked statement that Slymepit members are "misogynists, harassers, and rapists." Would that not make every Slymepit member a first-person affected by that tweet?

#52185

John Greg wrote:And I do not, and cannot understand how becoming (even if only in part) that which you abhore is a good thing to do.

For the same reason you would consider it acceptable, upon sighting a spree shooter armed with a pistol, to pull out a pistol of your own and shoot him. Your goal is not to shoot people, but to stop further harm to people's lives.

OH SHIT, YOU JUST USED THE WEAPONS OF THE ENEMY!

:roll:

#52186

CrackerGate didn't cause anyone harm. IT WAS A CRACKER. It hurt some feelings sure, but I think we can all agree there is a difference between blasphemy and trying to get someone fired. Right? Is this whole thing going to boil down to an equivalency fallacy?

The "Enemies" weapons are lies and real world pain. They aren't factual, and they cause harm for simply not agreeing with them. They are using their positions of authority to hurt people in the real world. Attempting to remove someone from a position where they can cause that harm, because they harmed people isn't evil. Harm was done. Authority was abused. Causing real pain, in the real world, to a real person. We aren't acting on bruised egos. We are acting on the knowledge someone is willing to cause harm, has before, and see no wrong in what they have done.

The fact that you ignore all factors that lead up to taking this action is simply dishonest. Trying to equate attempts to prevent further real world abuse, with baseless attacks is beyond my comprehension. It's a dishonest argument.

#52187

Odintsova wrote:Salon's balls dropped...

This is the same war on different fronts.

http://www.salon.com/2014/10/08/bill_ma ... socialflow

It is the same war on different fronts, and that was an excellent take down of Aslan and his portrayal of Islam, and I greatly appreciate your linking to it, I learned a great deal.

Re Salon, or even the author of the piece,

Moreover, we need to turn our critical irreligious gaze to what has been going wrong in the United States since the Reagan era as well. We herald the humanism allegedly inherent in the secular nature of our republic, while much of our Congress is in thrall to the religious right, with a House Science Committee that denies the reality of climate change, and, more broadly, a growing number of Republicans disbelieving the theory of evolution â€“ 48 percent, according to recent data, up from 39 percent in 2009. Women are still paid less than men in the workplace, and the freedom to do as they chose with their bodies â€“ as evidenced by, in some states, the offensive underway against abortion rights and compensation for birth control â€“ is ever more under threat. Sexual assault against women remains a serious problem, with faith-based biases still imbuing, whether obviously or not, both the victimsâ€™ responses to the crime and the way our courts deal with the issue.

Salon and he are still worshipping long debunked feminist nonsense.

(As a minor question, if the author and I both agree much of this crap started or got worse while Reagan was running, is "since the Reagan Era" really the best way to write that?)

#52188

sinister wrote:Not a damn soul can tell me what actions would be "enough" for it to become acceptable to push back. None. Everyone talks about patience and blah blah blah, ignoring the fact that YEARS of patience and documenting and whining has been done already. How many people have been hurt in that time?

All because it's spent hoping that the right person will learn about the problem then "they make magic happen," YAY A / S is less toxic!

Who exactly are you trying to convince? When they are convinced then what? What exactly is the step after "raising awareness?"

SInister, you're going fucking mental over the fact that not everybody agrees with you. An angry child throwing a fucking snit.

Why don't you just shut the fuck up and do whatever it is you're going to do, and stop boring the fuck out of everyone else.

#52189

I have to give credit to Craig Newmark and Hewlett Packard for turning my miserable move into a Tom Sawyer moment.

#52190

D4M10N

What my friends think I do:
http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view2/237910 ... nkey-o.gif

What my mom thinks I do:
http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view/68344/monkey-o.gif

What society thinks I do:
http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view/21639/williams-o.gif

What the Slymepit thinks I do:
http://www.fairfaxunderground.com/forum ... nkey-o.gif

What I think I do:
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-eZdhKMPctrA/T ... -small.gif

What I really do:
http://gifshost.com/3sw420787yu4.gif

#52191

Apples wrote:[.img]http://easycaptures.com/fs/uploaded/882/1497315194.png[/img]
http://www.change.org/p/bay-area-scienc ... al-program

A petition like this is more compelling and credible when there aren't at least three misspelled words in the opening paragraph.

Also some people seem to be emphasizing the fact that Little Paul doxed "a woman," like it matters more because she's a woman. I mean, it matters from the point of view of IOWWDI hypocrisy, and I recognize the rhetorical power of turning SJWs' own twisted logic against them, but, at the same time, I think it's important not to lend too much credibility to imbecilic tropes like "x was mean to someone / that person was a woman / therefore x is a misogynist (or the white knight implication - 'therefore it's a meaner act than if he'd done it to a man') -- unless the irony is reasonably obvious.

Anybody else notice how this anti-doxx petition doxxes?
[Note: Edited [img] tags to remove personal info - Gumby]

#52192

Don't care, just signed it anyway, even tough I hate petitions and Change.org.

#52193

Phil_Giordana_FCD wrote:Is there even a point in debating this?

If some people don't want to cross a certain line or, as they say "stoop to their level", that's fine by me. I haven't been lectured about the wrongness of my ways here yet, so I think I'm pretty safe in assuming I can do as I like regarding this matter, as an individual.

And so should everybody else.

Exactly. Several posters have explained their position and it's up to each person to decide the best course of action. I presume that the point of the discussion is to make an informed decision, and not to reach a corporate agreement.

I'll insist once more on what I consider good reasons not to pursue this matter IRL:

1. If the rational member of the A/S movement behave in exactly the same way as the lunatic fringe, ir will be harder to recruit the support of prominent atheists in a shunning campaign.

2. Any IRL action will likely fail to produce any favourable outcome. I don't think that anybody should see his job jeopardised by his online activities; yes, that's precisely what PZ did, but the general principle should always hold. Unless one is prepared to accept that murderers should be murdered, general principles like that one are desirable.

#52194

http://i.imgur.com/2y4iY5Z.jpg
Which FTB blog post did he post this comment? The one I own, or another one?

#52195

"Taste of their own medicine" is still a principle I enjoy.

#52196

BlueShiftRhino wrote:
jet_lagg wrote:I'm working on my letter to Bill Nye now and thought it would be useful to mention that he was actually a target at one point. I need help sourcing that though. Can any of you historians point me in the right direction?
My letter only talks about PZ's own attacks (using misrepresentations) on well-known scientists and skeptics. I also admit to Bill that I'm biased and I'm hoping that he'll help the US A/S community by doing something during his visit, even if it's just not meeting with PZ. I purposefully do not bring up the attack by Zvan's husband on Bill because that wasn't done by PZ, himself, and requires the rather weak guilt-by-association and/or -inaction line. I simply provide a short summary of what PZ has done to folks that Bill will know (of) and then links, in case he wants more.

Piling on weak arguments can lower the impact of a letter, IMO. But that's just my opinion and suggestion.

It's not just your opinion. As I understand there's a lot of hard data that weak arguments will make people dismiss strong ones they sit alongside. I was trying to build a case that Myers had been building a certain culture (it's his blog network), and give examples of what that culture does, but having now read the tweet (advanced twitter search is a thing, and I feel soiled by it) I think it's too weak. I'll be adjusting my letter accordingly.

#52197

*sigh*

Re: what D4M10N does

What the Slymepit thinks I do:

#52198

Gumby wrote:
sinister wrote:Not a damn soul can tell me what actions would be "enough" for it to become acceptable to push back. None. Everyone talks about patience and blah blah blah, ignoring the fact that YEARS of patience and documenting and whining has been done already. How many people have been hurt in that time?

All because it's spent hoping that the right person will learn about the problem then "they make magic happen," YAY A / S is less toxic!

Who exactly are you trying to convince? When they are convinced then what? What exactly is the step after "raising awareness?"
SInister, you're going fucking mental over the fact that not everybody agrees with you. An angry child throwing a fucking snit.

Why don't you just shut the fuck up and do whatever it is you're going to do, and stop boring the fuck out of everyone else.

Yes going mental. Jesus, don't stoop to their level, unless I am doing it, then I can be a telepath! I can impugn your arugumets by making them "mental" and "angry."

I am not upset people disagree, I am upset they are doing so in a dishonest way. One doesn't have to be angry or mental to disagree with you. One doesn't have to be emotional to defend their position. So, why don't you sit your sanctimonious self-refuting ass down and work out the internal logic of berating someones tactics using the tactics you claim they shouldn't be using.

I'm not even angry about your post! I just follow along with your escalation of rhetoric. Hell, the only reason I am responding here is once again, dishonesty.

#52199

By tomorrow around 4pm, I will be off to the mountains to assist the final Mix of Kerion's latest album. This plus no neck brace make me very happy, giddy, and full of butterflies and unicorns.

Myers is still a little fucker, though.

#52200

Phil_Giordana_FCD wrote:By tomorrow around 4pm, I will be off to the mountains to assist the final Mix of Kerion's latest album. This plus no neck brace make me very happy, giddy, and full of butterflies and unicorns.

Myers is still a little fucker, though.

Envy, I am green with it. Mountains and music? Nice.