Nerds. Nerds EVERYWHERE...

[Shatterface as Guest]

Methinks you're kind of conflating disrespect and murder - rather different kettles of fish methinks.

One 'methinks' in a sentence is bad enough, two is taking the piss.

Shatterface

[Steersman]

Methinks you're kind of conflating disrespect and murder - rather different kettles of fish methinks.

One 'methinks' in a sentence is bad enough, two is taking the piss.

Shatterface

Bit of a stutter - ableist .... ;-)

[Scented Nectar]

Deportation for failure to repudiate an ideology - no matter how horrible - is, to me, prosecution for thought-crime.

I meant something more like promising not to do any of the bad things, eg, forced marriage, killing gays and people who have unmarried sex, killing apostates and other nonbelievers who refuse to convert, and all that other nasty stuff. If they truly believe that the atrocities ordered in the koran should supercede our laws, then they can't be trusted to get along well with others in our society. They don't feel they have to follow the laws.

It's all moot anyways, since there is no way to read minds.

True. Although maybe once we've developed fMRI to a greater extent?

However, maybe in the interim, we could show prospective immigrants some of the Jyllands-Posten Muhammad cartoons or those from Charlie Hebdo and see how they react? ;-)

fMRI's cross a line probably. Unless I'm the one who gets to decide who gets mandatory ones and for what purposes. It's unlikely I'll ever be dictator of the world though, and I wouldn't trust anyone else, so I'd have to vote against any sort of mandatory ones. And the cartoons wouldn't work. The koran allows followers to lie about things if it protects the religion (there's some word for it that looks like 'tequila'), so even pissing on the koran could be considered a justifiable physical form of a lie in their eyes.

[Scented Nectar]

"Lying (Taqiyya and Kitman)" http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/quran/011-taqiyya.htm

[James Caruthers]

Your argument against Muslims is quite literally a white supremacist argument against black people.

I'm staying out of this mostly, but religion is not the same thing as race.

Being against detrimental cultural practices, such as religion-ordered violence, has nothing to do with physical features and is not racism.

Being against certain physical features (no matter what the culture or behaviours) IS racism.

I'm seeing the two things conflated a lot. I don't think there is anything wrong with having strong opinions against harmful cultural practices. I even think it's essential in order to improve the quality of life for everyone.

There is something wrong with being against certain physical attributes though. It's a very different thing.

Of course religion is not the same thing as race. That is not my argument.

My argument is that every reason Steersman gives for why we should violate the human rights of Muslims is an argument I have heard white supremacists use for why we should mass deport all black people back to Africa.

-They are savages
-Use of cherry-picked crime statistics that ignore wider problems like poverty
-Appeal to some larger ideology of the hated group, such as Islamic extremism or the stereotype of "black people sucking up all the welfare"
-Pointing to "x-on-white" crimes, whether black on white or Muslim on westerner
-Carefully ignoring every historical example of westerner/white mistreatment of the target group which might have justified hatred in response

I hate fundamentalist Islam. Wahabism or whatever it is. But there is no reason to persecute Sufis for the crimes of ISIS.

[James Caruthers]

I see a difference between the deportation of an entire group and the deportation of just those who refuse to repudiate the horrible parts of their religion. There is no good way though to figure out who would be sincere or not, short of reading minds. However, without deporting anyone, there should in times of war (and I do believe that islamicists are at war with the rest of the world), be severe restrictions on new immigrants. Islamicists are quite open about wanting to force sharia and islam on other countries. And they are currently killing many in the name of their religion. The doors should be closed right now to further muslim immigration.

And before anyone thinks that's mean or cruel, ask yourself how many islamic theocracies are open to non-muslims immigrating to their countries and freely practising their non-muslim religions. It's not we are closing our doors to people who would open their doors to us.

My understanding is it depends on the country.

But I do think that, if we want to advocate freedom, we have an obligation to maintain a higher standard of free expression than Muslim theocracies.

Sharia law should in no way be allowed. There is a line between allowing free religious expression and allowing the religious (or anyone else) to violate the human rights of others. Sharia courts violate human rights and that is not acceptable. But we can disallow these courts while still refusing to deport those who have committed no crime. Thoughts are not crimes.

I do not buy the notion that we are at perpetual war and this should allow the United States or anyone else to impose special laws to violate the human rights of some but not others.

[James Caruthers]

I see a difference between the deportation of an entire group and the deportation of just those who refuse to repudiate the horrible parts of their religion. There is no good way though to figure out who would be sincere or not, short of reading minds. However, without deporting anyone, there should in times of war (and I do believe that islamicists are at war with the rest of the world), be severe restrictions on new immigrants. Islamicists are quite open about wanting to force sharia and islam on other countries. And they are currently killing many in the name of their religion. The doors should be closed right now to further muslim immigration.

And before anyone thinks that's mean or cruel, ask yourself how many islamic theocracies are open to non-muslims immigrating to their countries and freely practising their non-muslim religions. It's not we are closing our doors to people who would open their doors to us.

I think that is a well thought out and easy to understand point. It is also completely different from what Steersman was talking about.

Yeah, that's also true. This is a more subtle argument than what Steers is saying and it has some merit even if I don't agree with all of it. I don't want anyone to think I am white knighting ISIS even though I'm sure the law of internet radicalization has already created that impression.

[SM12]

BTW, I can not recall if I mentioned this before but there is an Open Letter to Al-Baghdadi created by Muslims taking him to task about his version of Islam.

I suggest that anyone interested read it. It is a conversation between Muslims and the Islamic State. BTW, Westerners are not encouraged to participate in this conversation so do not be surprised if Muslims as a whole do not contact the MSM about it.

From the letter, 'It is forbidden in Islam to kill the innocent.'

Just how innocent in the eyes of Muslims are people who draw cartoons of the Prophet Muhammad?

[James Caruthers]

...But James' argument isn't that hatred of Islam is equivalent to hatred of black people. James (and I, incidentally) are arguing not against criticism and mockery of Islam, but against the illiberal principle of "collective guilt"...

Just so I understand this "collective guilt" concept, does it mean I get to blame all of you still engaging Steersman for Phil's broken scrolling finger, and for me having every morning resemble "Groundhog Day" where the role of Punxsutawney Phil is played by a rogue AI that has been exposed to too much Pat Condell?

[youtube]HMuLbW-DidY[/youtube]

I just doxxed Steersman with Gibblet's help.

[SM12]

BTW, I can not recall if I mentioned this before but there is an Open Letter to Al-Baghdadi created by Muslims taking him to task about his version of Islam.

I suggest that anyone interested read it. It is a conversation between Muslims and the Islamic State. BTW, Westerners are not encouraged to participate in this conversation so do not be surprised if Muslims as a whole do not contact the MSM about it.

From the letter 'It is forbidden in Islam to declare people non-Muslim unless he (or she) openly declares disbelief.'

So why are so many Muslims saying that people in ISIS are not Muslims?

[screwtape]

Hey now I am just telling you how it's done in these neck of the woods.

Last I heard, you were planning to do it in the neck of SN's wooded areas. How'd that go?

My wooded areas are on (meno-)pause. No one's doing it in the neck or anywhere else of my wooded areas these days. The land's lying fallow until further notice. :P

Just remember the purpose of letting land lie fallow in crop rotation was to increase fertility. Don't say I didn't warn you! :o

Anyway, I am progressively regretting more and more that I ever posted a defense of Steers as one of our idiots, but at least he was our idiot. I have every sympathy and respect for those on the spectrum, but there comes a point where free speech fails to teach such good folk the lessons of behavioural modification that need to be hammered home again and again. So, Steers, at this point it would be best to shut up and do something else. You won't change minds and you are losing people willing to read your posts. Arguing with him simply exacerbates it. Ignoring unwanted behaviours works better. I speak as the parent of an autistic who has gone from gleefully throwing shit around the house, to living independently three provinces away and is finishing his MSc in physics. Behavioural mod works, but it's hard work and slow. Don't make me put you in time out, Steers. I mean it. That's One....That's Two.....etc.

(And, yes, he inherited it from me. Fuck off - at least I don't bore you with The N-C Hypothesis.)

[James Caruthers]

Or maybe just trying to get their attention? And one might suggest that you're conflating disrespect for ideas with disrespect for people.

Whole lotta conflation goin' on ....

Sorry Steers but in this you are the one confused. It might seem crystal clear to you that the two are separate but it has escaped your notice that:

The God stricken (and we see this even with the allegedly Godless SJWarrios) view disrespect for their religion and their ideas as disrespect for themselves.

*shrug*

You have now been told. Do not expect me to say this again.

Well then that kind of makes "them" intrinsically unsuited for citizenship in Western countries, doesn't it?

http://d.ibtimes.co.uk/en/full/1410226/ ... member.jpg

[Billie from Ockham]

I see a difference between the deportation of an entire group and the deportation of just those who refuse to repudiate the horrible parts of their religion.

Deportation for failure to repudiate an ideology - no matter how horrible - is, to me, prosecution for thought-crime.

I meant something more like promising not to do any of the bad things, eg, forced marriage, killing gays and people who have unmarried sex, killing apostates and other nonbelievers who refuse to convert, and all that other nasty stuff. If they truly believe that the atrocities ordered in the koran should supercede our laws, then they can't be trusted to get along well with others in our society. They don't feel they have to follow the laws.

It's all moot anyways, since there is no way to read minds.

I have no problem with making people agree not to kill gays, marry their 12-yo daughters off, etc, but this should be done via laws that apply to everyone.* This is exactly the system that we had (in the US) until the first piece of "hate-crime" legislation passed. That was a huge mistake, in my opinion (and Wisconsin v. Mitchell was a terrible decision). I know why people wanted augmented penalties for certain crimes committed for certain reasons, but they needed to come up with a different method to reduce these crimes, because mind-reading - as you have pointed out - is impossible and asking 12 non-psychologists to do it doesn't change this one bit.

* (To be clear: I reject the idea of forcing some people to explicitly acknowledge some laws; that flies in the face of equal before the law, which is already being eroded enough without any more help.)

[Billie from Ockham]

Deportation for failure to repudiate an ideology - no matter how horrible - is, to me, prosecution for thought-crime.

I meant something more like promising not to do any of the bad things, eg, forced marriage, killing gays and people who have unmarried sex, killing apostates and other nonbelievers who refuse to convert, and all that other nasty stuff. If they truly believe that the atrocities ordered in the koran should supercede our laws, then they can't be trusted to get along well with others in our society. They don't feel they have to follow the laws.

It's all moot anyways, since there is no way to read minds.

True. Although maybe once we've developed fMRI to a greater extent?

So, Mr Wikipedia thinks that fMRI will someday be able to provide the specific content of mental representations? :D

Oh, and I've decided to detour past the local ASPCA on the way home. I'll be bringing a shotgun.

[Gefan]

If anyone thinks I am crashing a hotel room when there is even the slightest chance it might contain a naked PZ Myers, they are out of their fucking mind.

[free thoughtpolice]

If anyone thinks I am crashing a hotel room when there is even the slightest chance it might contain a naked PZ Myers, they are out of their fucking mind.

Hmm, maybe a 3way between PZ, Zvan, and Laden. A triple serving of Minnesota Nice. :shock:

[Really?]

If anyone thinks I am crashing a hotel room when there is even the slightest chance it might contain a naked PZ Myers, they are out of their fucking mind.

And PZ does that play-acting "Oh! I didn't know you were there!" and turns around to face you instead of leaping into a closet like the rest of us would.

[Skep tickle]

Someone with spoons should put a copy of Oolon's Comment #30 in this thread. It's a great read.

I have the spoons to post it but not to check to see if I've been ninger'd.

Archive: https://archive.is/M8wnr

This seems to the be the exchange between the 2 of them:

Liberal xtians have done much the same things, reinterpret their religion to not be as misogyny ridden. Weave some feminism into their faith. Some people say they can’t be “proper” feminists, xtianity is steeped in misogyny etc etc. Well they have changed it, modernised it. I’ve always thought that if I was religious I’d be a fundamentalist, as logically if you accept the religion as true you should follow all its tenets. Seems a lot of atheists think like this, and also apply this mode of thinking to their analysis of how other people express their religious faith.

I also see a parallel with radical feminist analysis, all piv sex is rape for example. You can’t freely choose to have piv sex with a man in a patriarchal society, so by doing so you are upholding patriarchy and also being oppressed (In this case raped). The woman’s choice to have sex is disregarded as irrelevant to the overall societal context. This seems patently absurd, we’d never be able to get out of such a societal dynamic for one. Or no one can have PIV sex until the patriarchy level drops to acceptable background noise. No woman can truly choose to wear a hijab and it not be a symbol of her oppression until all women everywhere have the choice as well, or maybe 50% of them, 60%, a majority? I don’t see it myself.

IMO this is only a positive thing. She is changing her religion to be more liberal and accepting of choice from within. What’s wrong with that?

oolon @ 20 – What do you do, get all your ideas of what “radical feminism” is from the Sun? Or from a copy of Time magazine from 40 years ago? That ridiculous caricature of “radical feminist analysis” would look right at home on an MRA blog.

What you think is your new expertise on feminism isn’t.

@Ophelia, no where did I say that was the sum of radical feminism. Not sure where you got that from. But it is an unfortunate fact that people calling themselves radical feminists do indeed write things like this. Although it is the extreme! I avoid saying women calling themselves radical feminists and being anti-sex work, anti-trans etc etc are not really “radical feminists”. They certainly say they are.

Just go away, oolon. I remember the days when all you did was giggle at the slime pit, and now you’re policing feminism. I can’t take you seriously as an expert on the subject. Go away.

[Aneris]

Someone with spoons should put a copy of Oolon's Comment #30 in this thread. It's a great read.

I have the spoons to post it but not to check to see if I've been ninger'd.

<snip>

Steersman, you monster! You even compromise Skeppers great work here.

[Tigzy]

Just go away, oolon. I remember the days when all you did was giggle at the slime pit, and now you’re policing feminism. I can’t take you seriously as an expert on the subject. Go away.

'Bout sums it up, really.

[Scented Nectar]

Just remember the purpose of letting land lie fallow in crop rotation was to increase fertility. Don't say I didn't warn you! :o

I won't let my guard down if my drive comes back. :)

[windy]

I'm going to call bullshit on PZs claim that the typical plumber has the same store of bon mots as a nobel laureate.

Naturally this depends on your definition of "interesting things to say"

Peez really has got his knickers in an ophie knot over successful scientists.

Is there a link for these comments please? I identify as a plumber/heating engineer and would be interested if the wanker wants to get personal :mrgreen:

Rest easy. PZ would much rather engage with a plumber than a laureate.

http://web.archive.org/web/201506291814 ... /29/24552/

So PZ would prefer to associate with a group that is even more male-dominated than Nobel laureates? :think:

http://www.bls.gov/cps/cpsaat11.htm

Pipelayers, plumbers, pipefitters, and steamfitters
Percent of total employed
Women 1.6
Black or African American 6.9
Asian 1.6
Hispanic or Latino 21.4

http://ak-hdl.buzzfed.com/static/enhanc ... 891-10.jpg

[Søren Lilholt]

HAHAHAHAHA
My sources indicate that Ophelia Benson banned Oolon after this exchange in the comments 20, 34, 43, 44:
http://freethoughtblogs.com/butterflies ... /06/20505/
She doesn't mention the ban in the comments but replies to Oolon's private Tweets show she banned him for it.

HT- LazyRedux AKA Percy Trumpton AKA Lazy Savant

Says Oolon:

" I’ve always thought that if I was religious I’d be a fundamentalist, as logically if you accept the religion as true you should follow all its tenets."

Says it all.

Obvious quotemining potential aside, I do see his point.

[CaptainFluffyBunny]

As an aside..if one or more of you involved with Gamer Gate would be willing to give my eldest some advice to be an activist? She's started to learn about what is happening, and is pretty furious about it. I am only on the periphery, and don't have the spoons to get more involved atm. If you let me know, I'll PM you her email. Thanks.

[Brive1987]

It's leap second day today.

Don't forget your clocks - you have been warned.

[KiwiInOz]

snip all useful context.

Shaming is, in fact, a normal, healthy social tool ...

snip the rest of the context, so quote mining

This is how we do it here.

http://www.reddirtreport.com/sites/defa ... eather.jpg

[CuntajusRationality]

Or maybe just trying to get their attention? And one might suggest that you're conflating disrespect for ideas with disrespect for people.

Whole lotta conflation goin' on ....

Sorry Steers but in this you are the one confused. It might seem crystal clear to you that the two are separate but it has escaped your notice that:

The God stricken (and we see this even with the allegedly Godless SJWarrios) view disrespect for their religion and their ideas as disrespect for themselves.

*shrug*

You have now been told. Do not expect me to say this again.

Well then that kind of makes "them" intrinsically unsuited for citizenship in Western countries, doesn't it?

[KiwiInOz]

I'm a dual citizen of NZ (native) and Australia. How long before my Aussie citizenship is revoked for engaging in Slymepit?

Why isn't your 'nym Pharlap?

Horses for courses.

[Parody Accountant]

[TheMudbrooker]

So PZ would prefer to associate with a group that is even more male-dominated than Nobel laureates? :think:

http://www.bls.gov/cps/cpsaat11.htm

Pipelayers, plumbers, pipefitters, and steamfitters
Percent of total employed
Women 1.6
Black or African American 6.9
Asian 1.6
Hispanic or Latino 21.4

http://ak-hdl.buzzfed.com/static/enhanc ... 891-10.jpg

The inclusion of Pipelayers with the other pipe trades skews the numbers greatly towards men. While plumbing, pipe and steam fitting are indeed related trades, pipelaying is considered a Laborer's job because it is intensely physical, filthy and dangerous work. In 25 years as a Laborer, more than half of that as a pipelayer, I've seen a number of women working as plumbers but I've yet to see a woman pipelayer.

[Billie from Ockham]

As an aside..if one or more of you involved with Gamer Gate would be willing to give my eldest some advice to be an activist? She's started to learn about what is happening, and is pretty furious about it. I am only on the periphery, and don't have the spoons to get more involved atm. If you let me know, I'll PM you her email. Thanks.

1. Sign up for a good proxy-server service.

[Tribble]

lol. And they're worse than ISIS. Can't forget that.

[Parody Accountant]

[KiwiInOz]

lol. And they're worse than ISIS. Can't forget that.

http://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/80a16b8bd ... c2301d243c

[free thoughtpolice]

OK Sheeple, you have been warned!
[youtube]4o-VQA_o1hQ[/youtube]

[JackSkeptic]

Some people keep mentioning how gamergate is winning or that how gamergate handles SJW is how others should as well. Pish posh! (is t hat even a phrase?) Anytime I see gg in the news it's always negative. Here's an example of the first hit I get whwn I search for gamergate in goolge then click on news.

http://www.inquisitr.com/2207377/gamerg ... f-twitter/

Earlier today, constant harassment by supporters of the #GamerGate movement drove prominent game critic and outspoken person-of-color Tauriq Moosa to delete his Twitter account, according to a report from The Mary Sue. GamerGate’s attack and the fallout therof has since spawned a hashtag campaign, dubbed #IStandWithTauriq in support of Moosa, who also writes for publications including Polygon and The Guardian.

So what brought the wrath of GamerGate down on Mr. Moosa?
...
Today, in the wake of Tauriq Moosa’s departure from Twitter, GamerGate has set out to poison the #IStandWithTauriq hashtag, filling it with hate, abuse and misinformation, and attacking anyone speaking up in support of Moosa. The tweets from GamerGate are sadly too inappropriate for publication anywhere, but here is a small sample of what his supporters have to say."

etc.

This is the standard sort of gg article.

Anyway w/e. I've noticed pushback too. Not enough yet though imo.

#Gamergate is winning in the development of ethics policies in numerous game journal outlets. It is winning in the way more developers are speaking out and producing games counter to the SJW views. It is winning in that E3 wasn't focused on BS SJW topics like certain atheist and skeptic cons. The media is biased against #gamergate because they are the ones being attacked for their practices. In the end, mainstream media has always had a shit view of games and gamers, from tabletop onward. What they say is irrelevant - it's what the game companies and developers do (and specifically game media, not general mainstream or SJW rags) that is important. While it would be nice for the mainstream media to stand with consumers rather than the biased outfits, that rarely happens with anything. Just my views, but I think a lot of gamers view it similaraly

Gaming media has been known to be corrupt since its inception. Corruption is garanteed when the advertisers pull the purse strings of those who are supposed to review their products. Gamergate just brought it to the suface and gave it more attention. Many a naive child or non gaming relative purchasing presents have been ripped off by them for years though.

Gaming media is mainly on Youtube now and that is either anti-sjw or ignoring the whole thing. Gaming sits Places such as Kotaku are irrelveant to serious buying decisions or opinion. They will still catch out the innocent though. Main stream media is being seen to be corrupt and biased to the point of lying when it takes their fancy. People like Adam Lee are laughed at these days. So is Myers and FtB for that matter, at least they were the few times I have seen them mentioned, which is rare.

Gamergate has done a lot. The corrupt media will not change but it will become even more irrelevant, as FtB has now become irrelevant to Science or any serious or intellegent discussion.

[Pogsurf]

Got to laugh at Myers' idea that escorting people out of conferences helps his agenda. He wanted me escorted out of Atheist Ireland's 2013 conference in Dublin. After a brief interrogation by a welcoming committee they were reassured I was not threat to either social justice or even Myers himself, and I was allowed to stay.

With the way things have panned out since then I think AI now agree with my central thesis that Myers is a cunt.

[JackSkeptic]

Parody going for the Godfrey award and steaming ahead in this tightly night race with Steersman 'I say really dumb stuff' a close second.

[NoGodsEver]

So PZ would prefer to associate with a group that is even more male-dominated than Nobel laureates? :think:

http://www.bls.gov/cps/cpsaat11.htm

Pipelayers, plumbers, pipefitters, and steamfitters
Percent of total employed
Women 1.6
Black or African American 6.9
Asian 1.6
Hispanic or Latino 21.4

http://ak-hdl.buzzfed.com/static/enhanc ... 891-10.jpg

The inclusion of Pipelayers with the other pipe trades skews the numbers greatly towards men. While plumbing, pipe and steam fitting are indeed related trades, pipelaying is considered a Laborer's job because it is intensely physical, filthy and dangerous work. In 25 years as a Laborer, more than half of that as a pipelayer, I've seen a number of women working as plumbers but I've yet to see a woman pipelayer.

What about Caitlyn Jenner?

[Pogsurf]

Girls will be girls.

[Matt Cavanaugh]

No one's forced to do anything because games are a luxury item that you choose to buy or not. Moosa is intentionally mischaracterizing an argument about not strong-arming developers and artists into catering to political whims over their own vision or the internal consistency of their worlds as "white people don't want to play as non-white characters," which is dumb as fuck.

No one's forcing moose to go fuck himself, but he can.

[AndrewV69]

I hate fundamentalist Islam. Wahabism or whatever it is. But there is no reason to persecute Sufis for the crimes of ISIS.

No shit, especially as I would be very surprised if a Sufi (or Ismali etc. etc.) ever engaged in something like that.

[Matt Cavanaugh]

... Flash mobs are like flash floods. Flash floods kill lots of people. Slymepitters are mass murderers.

Ahh, SJW logic! reminds me of a little riddle from grammar school:


Q: Why are fire engines red?

A:
One plus one equals two.
Two plus two equals four.
Three time four is twelve.
There are twelve inches in a ruler.
Queen Elizabeth is the ruler of Britain.
Britain rules the sea.
There are fish in the sea.
Fish have fins.
The Finns fought the Russians.
The Russians are red.
Fire engines are always rushin'
That's why fire engines are red.

[Parody Accountant]

Nah, I can't touch elfwick / parsehole. Just having fun :)

Maybe eventually I'll get lucky.

[Matt Cavanaugh]

Careful! You might get electrocuted.

[Sunder]

Odd of Myers to refer to his own blog network as "the train crash" but I suppose it's apropos.

[Sunder]

Got to laugh at Myers' idea that escorting people out of conferences helps his agenda.

He "accommodates" some people by dis-accommodating others.

[Pogsurf]

Got to laugh at Myers' idea that escorting people out of conferences helps his agenda.

He "accommodates" some people by dis-accommodating others.

He is such a weakling that he hopes other people will keep him safe from the people of which he is scared.

[EdwardGemmer]

This Timothy Hunt thing is ridiculous. Maybe he said something insensitive although maybe he was joking around? Who gives two fucks? This is example part 9 million where SJW's get all upset about meaningless social faux pas to the detriment of their actual states cause. Having more women in science is a good goal. How does attacking this poor sap advance that goal in any way?

Would this event make you more or less likely to want to put time and effort into advancing the cause of women in science?

[AndrewV69]

BTW, I can not recall if I mentioned this before but there is an Open Letter to Al-Baghdadi created by Muslims taking him to task about his version of Islam.

I suggest that anyone interested read it. It is a conversation between Muslims and the Islamic State. BTW, Westerners are not encouraged to participate in this conversation so do not be surprised if Muslims as a whole do not contact the MSM about it.

From the letter, 'It is forbidden in Islam to kill the innocent.'

Just how innocent in the eyes of Muslims are people who draw cartoons of the Prophet Muhammad?

Depends, to the Salafis everyone else is not a Muslim, including Shia etc. etc. No crime to kill a kuffir. You will find varying forms of tolerance elsewhere. Hint, do not look for it in any rural areas of any Muslim majority country.

If you really want to know more, Pew Research Center has a good reputation see their report titled The World’s Muslims: Religion, Politics and Society

Not quite what you were asking about but I suggest reading the report anyway.

Overwhelming percentages of Muslims in many countries want Islamic law (sharia) to be the official law of the land, according to a worldwide survey by the Pew Research Center. But many supporters of sharia say it should apply only to their country’s Muslim population.

Moreover, Muslims are not equally comfortable with all aspects of sharia: While most favor using religious law in family and property disputes, fewer support the application of severe punishments – such as whippings or cutting off hands – in criminal cases. The survey also shows that Muslims differ widely in how they interpret certain aspects of sharia, including whether divorce and family planning are morally acceptable.

Read this part if you are not interested in anything else. Anyone remember my saying that American Muslims are a source of concern for many Muslims who do not live there (this includes Muslims living in the UK for example, but not as much in Canukistan ).

How Do American Muslims Compare?

In 2011, the Pew Research Center conducted its second nationally representative survey of Muslims in the United States. When that survey is compared with the global survey of Muslims, some key differences emerge between U.S. Muslims and Muslims in other countries. In general, American Muslims are more at ease in the contemporary world. About six-in-ten Muslims living in the U.S. (63%) say there is no tension between being religiously devout and living in a modern society, compared with a median of 54% of Muslims worldwide. American Muslims also are more likely than Muslims in other parts of the world to say that many religions can lead to eternal salvation (56% vs. global median of 18%). Additionally, U.S. Muslims are much less likely than Muslims worldwide to say that all or most of their close friends are Muslim (48% vs. global median of 95%).

Muslims in the U.S. are about as likely as Muslims in other countries to view science and religion as fully compatible. In the U.S., 59% of Muslims say there generally is not a conflict between science and religion, compared with a median of 54% globally among Muslims. However, American Muslims are somewhat less likely to believe in evolution than are Muslims in other parts of the world (45% vs. global median of 53%). Indeed, when it comes to evolution, U.S. Muslims are closer to U.S. Christians (46% of whom say they believe in evolution) than they are to fellow Muslims elsewhere in the world.

American Muslims are even more likely than Muslims in other countries to firmly reject violence in the name of Islam. In the U.S., about eight-in-ten Muslims (81%) say that suicide bombing and similar acts targeting civilians are never justified. Across the globe, a median of roughly seven-in-ten Muslims (72%) agrees. (For more details on how U.S. Muslims compare with Muslims worldwide, see Appendix A: U.S. Muslims — Views on Religion and Society in a Global Context.)

Quite frankly, I doubt anyone anyone can sell me on mass deportations. In any event, if you are going to confront an issue it helps if you have some understanding about what you are dealing with.

[Bhurzum]

Sorry, I can't resist it...

[youtube]Z9iZ-AzRDJs[/youtube]

[AndrewV69]

BTW, I can not recall if I mentioned this before but there is an Open Letter to Al-Baghdadi created by Muslims taking him to task about his version of Islam.

I suggest that anyone interested read it. It is a conversation between Muslims and the Islamic State. BTW, Westerners are not encouraged to participate in this conversation so do not be surprised if Muslims as a whole do not contact the MSM about it.

From the letter 'It is forbidden in Islam to declare people non-Muslim unless he (or she) openly declares disbelief.'

So why are so many Muslims saying that people in ISIS are not Muslims?

All I have to say is that it is a serious thing for one Muslim to make takfir on another Muslim. It is a quite another order for the Kuffir to make takfir on a Muslim.

Making takfir is something I refuse to do.

[debaser71]

Some people keep mentioning how gamergate is winning or that how gamergate handles SJW is how others should as well. Pish posh! (is t hat even a phrase?) Anytime I see gg in the news it's always negative. Here's an example of the first hit I get whwn I search for gamergate in goolge then click on news.

http://www.inquisitr.com/2207377/gamerg ... f-twitter/

Earlier today, constant harassment by supporters of the #GamerGate movement drove prominent game critic and outspoken person-of-color Tauriq Moosa to delete his Twitter account, according to a report from The Mary Sue. GamerGate’s attack and the fallout therof has since spawned a hashtag campaign, dubbed #IStandWithTauriq in support of Moosa, who also writes for publications including Polygon and The Guardian.

So what brought the wrath of GamerGate down on Mr. Moosa?
...
Today, in the wake of Tauriq Moosa’s departure from Twitter, GamerGate has set out to poison the #IStandWithTauriq hashtag, filling it with hate, abuse and misinformation, and attacking anyone speaking up in support of Moosa. The tweets from GamerGate are sadly too inappropriate for publication anywhere, but here is a small sample of what his supporters have to say."

etc.

This is the standard sort of gg article.

Anyway w/e. I've noticed pushback too. Not enough yet though imo.

#Gamergate is winning in the development of ethics policies in numerous game journal outlets. It is winning in the way more developers are speaking out and producing games counter to the SJW views. It is winning in that E3 wasn't focused on BS SJW topics like certain atheist and skeptic cons. The media is biased against #gamergate because they are the ones being attacked for their practices. In the end, mainstream media has always had a shit view of games and gamers, from tabletop onward. What they say is irrelevant - it's what the game companies and developers do (and specifically game media, not general mainstream or SJW rags) that is important. While it would be nice for the mainstream media to stand with consumers rather than the biased outfits, that rarely happens with anything. Just my views, but I think a lot of gamers view it similaraly

That makes sense but outside the gaming circle (which to me seems like everyone I know personally) what the mainstream media says about gamergate is just taken as fact. This all plays into the larger issue that liberals seem to always be falling to recently, "the war on women". From STEM to games to atheism to salary to bodily autonomy to street harassment to manspreading...there's a war on women don'tchaknow! In this respect, to me, GG fails. GG is just more proof of misogyny in our culture! I guess it could be worse and I suppose I am glad it isn't but I was never worried. Maybe I should have been?

[Parody Accountant]

[AndrewV69]

If anyone thinks I am crashing a hotel room when there is even the slightest chance it might contain a naked PZ Myers, they are out of their fucking mind.

Hmm, maybe a 3way between PZ, Zvan, and Laden. A triple serving of Minnesota Nice. :shock:

Speaking of Minnesota ... this reminds me of UoM and apparently they have more serious issues to deal with than some pudgy PeeZuss Christ (PBUH) and his antics on the interteletubes.

According to the NY Times, in an article titled The University of Minnesota’s Medical Research Mess

MINNEAPOLIS — IF you want to see just how long an academic institution can tolerate a string of slow, festering research scandals, let me invite you to the University of Minnesota, where I teach medical ethics.

Over the past 25 years, our department of psychiatry has been party to the following disgraces: a felony conviction and a Food and Drug Administration research disqualification for a psychiatrist guilty of fraud in a drug study; the F.D.A. disqualification of another psychiatrist, for enrolling illiterate Hmong refugees in a drug study without their consent; the suspended license of yet another psychiatrist, who was charged with “reckless, if not willful, disregard” for dozens of patients; and, in 2004, the discovery, in a halfway house bathroom, of the near-decapitated corpse of Dan Markingson, a seriously mentally ill young man under an involuntary commitment order who committed suicide after enrolling, over the objections of his mother, in an industry-funded antipsychotic study run by members of the department.

And those, unfortunately, are just the highlights.

Read the article shitlords. If UoM have serious issues to deal with and apparently they are not dealing with them, then calling them to complain about our Dear Glorious Leader PeeZuss Christ (PBUH) like a certain person advocated is unlikely in my mind to shift their collective asses to do anything about it.

[DaveDodo007]

As an aside..if one or more of you involved with Gamer Gate would be willing to give my eldest some advice to be an activist? She's started to learn about what is happening, and is pretty furious about it. I am only on the periphery, and don't have the spoons to get more involved atm. If you let me know, I'll PM you her email. Thanks.

KotakuinAction on Reddit is the best place to start.

[free thoughtpolice]

From what I hear declaring takfir on a muslim is up there with showing him a cartoon of Muhammad or hitting xir with your shoe. :ugeek:

[comhcinc]

All I have to say is that it is a serious thing for one Muslim to make takfir on another Muslim. It is a quite another order for the Kuffir to make takfir on a Muslim.

Making takfir is something I refuse to do.

First why would you give a fuck. We are all atheist right? Secondly I hear ya man, I am not in to poop play.

[comhcinc]

As an aside..if one or more of you involved with Gamer Gate would be willing to give my eldest some advice to be an activist? She's started to learn about what is happening, and is pretty furious about it. I am only on the periphery, and don't have the spoons to get more involved atm. If you let me know, I'll PM you her email. Thanks.

KotakuinAction on Reddit is the best place to start.

Not at the moment. Reddit is down. We killed it talking about wrestling.

[CuntajusRationality]

This Timothy Hunt thing is ridiculous. Maybe he said something insensitive although maybe he was joking around? Who gives two fucks? This is example part 9 million where SJW's get all upset about meaningless social faux pas to the detriment of their actual states cause. Having more women in science is a good goal. How does attacking this poor sap advance that goal in any way?

Would this event make you more or less likely to want to put time and effort into advancing the cause of women in science?

As usual the seemingly heart-felt apologies did nothing to stem the tide.

I am extremely grateful to you for giving me the opportunity of apologising for
my stupid and ill-judged remarks. I am extremely sorry for the remarks made during the recent “Women in science” lunch at the WCSJ in Seoul, Korea. I accept that my attempts at a self- deprecating joke were ill-judged and not in the least bit funny. I am mortified to have upset my hosts, which was the very last thing I intended. I also fully accept that the sentiments as interpreted have no place in modern science and deeply apologize to all those good friends who fear I have undermined their efforts to put these stereotypes behind us. In my own career I have always tried to treat my colleagues with respect and kindness whoever they are and am proud to have developed and mentored the careers of many excellent young scientists who will be tackling tomorrow’s biological problems long after I have left the scene. I would like to ask that people accept my apology as heartfelt and judge me on my record.

I have tremendous respect for Korean science and scientists, and would point out that my very happy association with Korea came about through a female scientist.
Best wishes,
Tim