The Refuge of the Toads

[fuzzy]

I'm getting a bit worked up. Children should be in quotes. I'm not implying the man is a pedophile.

I believe the term 'ephebophile' for that 15-19 range may be applicable. A friend of mine, when he saw a group of such young women, used to joke that he feared losing self control and going on a "pheebing frenzy".

[free thoughtpolice]

From Carrier's bat signal comments:

abear says

April 30, 2015 at 4:28 pm

Rick: I believe someone on your facebook page said they would take you up on your offer if they were 10 years younger. That piqued my curiosity as you didn’t mention age preferences. 18-58 sound about right?
Also, are you getting many replies?

Richard Carrier says

April 30, 2015 at 8:15 pm

Several good replies so far. And I don’t have any fixed rule about age, beyond what the law requires.

What I find attractive is subjective, personal, ineffable; incapable of useful definition.

Jackie the social justice WIZZARD!!! says

May 1, 2015 at 6:39 am

Why is that your business and why are you Facebook stalking Richard?

At least Carrier is willing to admit he wouldn't turn down a very young woman as long as they are legal.
Oh, and if Jackie the social justice WIZZARD!!! happens to be reading this, as unlikely as that is, it really wasn't any of my business but Dr. Carrier seemed pretty open to sharing the details of his particular inclinations and as I was aware that he was speaking at SSA events and was curious as to whether he might be in to chasing really young women, what with the atmosphere of campus safe spaces and a great deal of sensitivity these days to (esp.) young women being taken advantage of sexually. :naughty:
Reading a public figure's Facebook page is stalking now?

[VickyCaramel]

I see nothing wrong with having sex with anyone you want to regardless of emotional connections or affectionate feelings. And yes it's okay to have various sex partners at different times but feelings of jealousy, loneliness, or abandonment can happen just like if you only ever fuck one person or no people.

I love you John but I don't want you teaching my kids what is right or wrong anymore than I want Carrier.

I think you misunderstood his point there. Polyamory, open relationships, threesomes etc, almost always end badly. People get jealous, people get hurt. Sometimes it can get nasty.

Nothing wrong with sky diving either, but I wouldn't want my husband doing it every weekend.

Take sex out of the equation and even then, would you be coaching your kids to engage in practices where they are likely to be hurting people's feelings or putting relationships under stress? That's called being a douchebag... something that admittedly Carrier seems to be qualified to teach.

[Bourne Skeptic]

The list is endless. Fuck me. How stupid am I? Becci Watson was right! The skeptic/atheist movement is full of sex pervs.

I don't have a problem with "perverts", I just have a problem with them moralizing to the rest of us.

They are moralizing to us the same way child rapist priests moralize to us. The stuff they are public with is the tip of the iceberg. These are not trust-able people with integrity. They are dirtbags. I shudder to think they give life-lessons to children at summer camp.

Carrier - "Hi Jimmy... and Suzie.... today we are going to talk about how to be happily sexually. First off, it is okay to have sex with anyone at any time. There is no need to feel any emotional connection or even have affectionate feelings for them. Just make sure you ask first! It is also okay to have various sex partners at different times, and don't worry, no one will ever get jealous or feel lonely or abandoned. It all works out fine as long as you ask first."

Jimmy - "Hi mom. Camp was great. It taught me to ask all the girls I like to have sex with me. I am going to Cindy's house right now!"

Mom - "But wait.... you still have you 6th grade math homework to finish. No sex till you finish you homework young man!"

Bam.... it's a fucking utopia!

Seems to me some people here smell blood in the water and are getting caught up in a feeding frenzy.

My 2 cents.

[deLurch]

Re: Carrier. I don't know about you, but to me this is just more of a “cloud of suspicion” again, which vastly outsizes any concrete matters; Vague allegations, a mixture between completely innocent “crimes” (he flirted! Will somebody please call the cops!) and vague insinuations of something worse, which is not quite graspable. The next problem is that “the totality of his flirty behavior” is not measureable, but just as before is a Confirmation Bias type exploit. You place someone onto a stage, start gossiping, and then anything can become a “thing” — all the tiny things suddenly add up to something, which is exactly the blueprint of witch hunts “yeah, I always noticed his creepy looks! And he once wanted to sit next to me, THERE you have it! UGH! I always KNEW it!”.

I pretty much agree with you with a few of caveats.
* SSA had a policy against the speakers (not sure about staff/older volunteers) trying to fuck the students.
* Carrier objected to this policy, and then tried to hit on the students anyway. Two admitted incidents.
And, for our own amusement,
* Carrier fails to pass his own measuring/Bayesian smell tests that he put against Shermer.
* Carrier accuses his accusers of being liars not worthy of being believed, while his own story is filled with lies.

As far as Camp Quest goes, there is no reason to believe that Carrier would be a kiddie diddler. We would hope that he would at least stick to the 18+ rule, and not sink down the the state statutory age or consent. But once you get past that, it is clear from his sexual compulsions with the Student Secular Association, it is clear that age differences don't matter. Like many camps, I would expect a certain number of former campers who hit the age of 18, to come back as camp counselors. In fact the webpage has it dead on.

https://campquest.org/faqs

How many kids generally attend? What are their age brackets?
Answer
Camp Quest sessions range in size from around 20 campers at our smallest camps to around 80 at our largest. Typically campers are fairly evenly distributed throughout the age range of 8-17. Most of our camps offer Counselor-in-Training (CIT) programs for campers who are 16 and 17.

Given that Carrier has zero issues with age differences (grass on the field play ball, hell she is an 18 year old staff member now), how many parents would be all that happy with 44 year old poly-Carrier playing his "I'm-not-hitting-on-you" game with their now barely legal daughters who came back to camp to help?

[CaptainFluffyBunny]

snip

I see nothing wrong with having sex with anyone you want to regardless of emotional connections or affectionate feelings. And yes it's okay to have various sex partners at different times but feelings of jealousy, loneliness, or abandonment can happen just like if you only ever fuck one person or no people.

I love you John but I don't want you teaching my kids what is right or wrong anymore than I want Carrier.

It might be the hydrocodone, but I am not understanding this bit at all. Are you saying there's no morality involved in sex? There are certainly attendant feelings and consequences.

[jet_lagg]

Yes it is jet lagg. That is exactly what you were doing. I am glad you realise that and walked it back.

The fact of the matter is I agree with you that Carrier seems to be fine with acting upon his appreciation of teenage titties is not cool. I am not willing to say those titties need to be protected. He is an unethical cunt but I have yet to see anyone talking about him forcing anything.

I'm not walking anything back. I stand by my full moral condemnation, and by my post (with the clarification that children should have been "children" so it's clear we're talking about teenagers). Just because I'm pissed off doesn't mean what I'm saying isn't the truth.

In your full moral condemnation and anger have you notice I pretty much agree with you?

I think we have a substantial disagreement because I do think the teenage titties need protection. We've seen that Carrier thinks possible jail time is the only reason not to pursue a girl. The age of consent in Ohio is 16, which means a scenario with him chasing after some girl who hasn't even lived outside of her parents home yet is not just plausible, but likely. I have no idea what his thoughts on underage drinking are, but can probably guess, and now I'm hearing about a student getting blackout drunk with him and waking up in his room with no memory of the night (sound familiar to a recent event? Remember the outrage?). Having someone with that kind of moral character running in the circles of Camp Quest's leadership is completely unacceptable.

[JackSkeptic]

Matt Cavanaugh

'The fact that the SSA and Camp Quest leadership and staff is chock-full of sexual deviants is alarming. Do you really trust the Semen Fetishist, Miri "How To Score At Cons" Mogilevski, or Greta "Shove My Head In A Toilet And Rape My Ass" Christina with teenagers and young adults?

This goes beyond the Pit's regular mockery of the Baboons. This is a serious scandal, and young, impressionable people are at definite risk'

Those are disgusting comments with no evidence to support them wahtsoever. IF there is evidence then fine, more than fine.

That is sjust a sample, they are easy to find.

[comhcinc]

I see nothing wrong with having sex with anyone you want to regardless of emotional connections or affectionate feelings. And yes it's okay to have various sex partners at different times but feelings of jealousy, loneliness, or abandonment can happen just like if you only ever fuck one person or no people.

I love you John but I don't want you teaching my kids what is right or wrong anymore than I want Carrier.

Right.... I wonder what the parents of Camp Quest think about sexuality. Haha. Most people can't even spell polyamory. Most people are ten times more sexually conservative than I am when it comes to raising their children. Serial monogamy is a social norm with lots of benefits. My daughter is poly and I feel that her relationships are abusive... and this is while I know that she is one of the nicest and kindest people you could ever meet. It is a risky way to manage your life relationships. It is just a way to make swinging sound like a good thing.

Well I am a parent and I have been trying to work it send my kids to camp quest for the last couple of years so you kinda have one parent's opinion.

It seems a lot of us are assuming that sex talks are happening at these camps. I have some friends that have volunteered at one of the close ones and I just doubt that is happening at all.

Also I think you are pretty much spot on with your thoughts.

[CaptainFluffyBunny]

I suppose that some see the speculation as to the nature of what goes on at Camp Quest as inappropriate, but I think a relevant question is, given what you know about the Camp, would you send your child there? Would you trust an organization that seems to be rife with hypocrisy to impart lessons of morality to young people?

[comhcinc]

I see nothing wrong with having sex with anyone you want to regardless of emotional connections or affectionate feelings. And yes it's okay to have various sex partners at different times but feelings of jealousy, loneliness, or abandonment can happen just like if you only ever fuck one person or no people.

I love you John but I don't want you teaching my kids what is right or wrong anymore than I want Carrier.

I think you misunderstood his point there. Polyamory, open relationships, threesomes etc, almost always end badly. People get jealous, people get hurt. Sometimes it can get nasty.

Nothing wrong with sky diving either, but I wouldn't want my husband doing it every weekend.

Take sex out of the equation and even then, would you be coaching your kids to engage in practices where they are likely to be hurting people's feelings or putting relationships under stress? That's called being a douchebag... something that admittedly Carrier seems to be qualified to teach.

Remember (or maybe you don't know) I was in a poly relationship for years, and I know a lot of poly people. Why would I teach my kids that something I am fine with doing myself is wrong?

[Really?]

Right.... I wonder what the parents of Camp Quest think about sexuality. Haha. Most people can't even spell polyamory. Most people are ten times more sexually conservative than I am when it comes to raising their children. Serial monogamy is a social norm with lots of benefits. My daughter is poly and I feel that her relationships are abusive... and this is while I know that she is one of the nicest and kindest people you could ever meet. It is a risky way to manage your life relationships. It is just a way to make swinging sound like a good thing.

We have a situation in which the right hand knows that the left hand had to deal with Carrier sexually harassing the women on multiple occasions. So many that Carrier can't keep them straight.

And that same left hand is jacking Carrier off in the gender neutral bathroom immediately after telling people to send their children to its summer camp.

It's one thing for horny people to get together at TAM. Those people are generally adults or minors who are being watched by their parents. These are organizations that deal with children and with young people on college campuses: places that are currently embroiled in rape culture hysteria. How can Camp Quest fulfill its mission if its director is fucking and publicizing a man she knows was booted from her husband's organization for sexual harassment? How can the Secular Student Alliance operate on college campuses when they are always under the threat of losing access because they are a part of rape culture and haven't, to my knowledge, banned a guy who was rape culturing the women...and there's no way the head of SSA can't know about it because he's fucking his wife?

These are political outreach organizations. They are operating as the public face of atheism and skepticism and they are pulling shady shit. They are putting their own sexual needs ahead those of the organization or movement.

It's perfectly fine to point out that Carrier is macking on the 17 year olds. 17 is legal in many places and Carrier was very clear that his dick follows the age of consent laws of every municipality. If you're a parent of a 17 year old girl and you're upset that Camp Quest and the Secular Student Alliance are so close with a middle-aged man who has a history of sexual harassment and is creepy as fuck...

Well, get over it because atheism and skepticism have a sexual harassment problem and Richard Carrier, Jason Thibeault, PZ Myers and several other accused are the ones working to stop it.

[JackSkeptic]

If there was ANY sexual content in what the kids were taught at Camp Quest I would radically change my position. Not only for that but for the fact SJW's are more than happy to indoctrinate into their political philosophy, the same as most relegions will. Teaching kids they must listen and belive, thinking for yourself is bad and that they must think only the 'one true way' is in itself a form of abuse.

But I see no evidence of that. Maybe I am naive though.

[Matt Cavanaugh]

SSA is a partner with Camp Quest:

https://campquest.org/partners

Regional SSA groups actively promote Camp Quest.


August Brunsman is ED of SSA. Amanda Metskas is ED of Camp Quest. Brunsman and Metsakas are married, and shacking up now with Dick Carrier. Perhaps the three of them could discuss potential conflicts of interest while August and Dickie are licking each others' cum off of Amanda's saggy tits.

[CaptainFluffyBunny]

Matt Cavanaugh

'The fact that the SSA and Camp Quest leadership and staff is chock-full of sexual deviants is alarming. Do you really trust the Semen Fetishist, Miri "How To Score At Cons" Mogilevski, or Greta "Shove My Head In A Toilet And Rape My Ass" Christina with teenagers and young adults?

This goes beyond the Pit's regular mockery of the Baboons. This is a serious scandal, and young, impressionable people are at definite risk'

Those are disgusting comments with no evidence to support them wahtsoever. IF there is evidence then fine, more than fine.

That is sjust a sample, they are easy to find.

While Matt engaged in a bit of insults, Greta does indeed write rape porn, Carrier is a semen fetishist, Midi did a talk on how to score at cons. These are established facts.

If you are objecting to the word "deviants", these activities do deviate from societal norms, therefore the word seems appropriate. If you object to the word's emotionally laden context, you might note it seems most people engaging in the lifestyle seem to embrace the use of the word.

What scandal are you referring to? There is some humorous speculation by John, but These are hardly serious accusations. Are we not to insult them now? Is the pit now a serious media outlet?

[CaptainFluffyBunny]

If there was ANY sexual content in what the kids were taught at Camp Quest I would radically change my position. Not only for that but for the fact SJW's are more than happy to indoctrinate into their political philosophy, the same as most relegions will. Teaching kids they must listen and belive, thinking for yourself is bad and that they must think only the 'one true way' is in itself a form of abuse.

But I see no evidence of that. Maybe I am naive though.

While it may or may not be in the curriculum, being hit on by Carrier is not unlikely to be in the agenda. Shouldn't that be a consideration?

[VickyCaramel]

I see nothing wrong with having sex with anyone you want to regardless of emotional connections or affectionate feelings. And yes it's okay to have various sex partners at different times but feelings of jealousy, loneliness, or abandonment can happen just like if you only ever fuck one person or no people.

I love you John but I don't want you teaching my kids what is right or wrong anymore than I want Carrier.

I think you misunderstood his point there. Polyamory, open relationships, threesomes etc, almost always end badly. People get jealous, people get hurt. Sometimes it can get nasty.

Nothing wrong with sky diving either, but I wouldn't want my husband doing it every weekend.

Take sex out of the equation and even then, would you be coaching your kids to engage in practices where they are likely to be hurting people's feelings or putting relationships under stress? That's called being a douchebag... something that admittedly Carrier seems to be qualified to teach.

Remember (or maybe you don't know) I was in a poly relationship for years, and I know a lot of poly people. Why would I teach my kids that something I am fine with doing myself is wrong?

I am not saying it is wrong. It takes a certain kind of person with a certain kind of emotional maturity (or lack of emotion) to be able to navigate it. It is not for beginners, and it isn't for some people every, no matter how much they wish it.

There is a lot more to this conversation than, "Yeah, it's all good" and so it is not something I would want Carrier discussing with impressionable teens.

[Matt Cavanaugh]

First off, I have a major issue with Dick Carrier interacting in an overnight camp setting with teenagers.

* We have a plausible accusation that he propositioned &/or sexually harassed a college student, while functioning in an official capacity for SSA, and in direct violation of the SSA code of conduct;

* We have ample evidence from Carrier himself that he engages in a promiscuous lifestyle, with copious anecdotes of him propositioning women at events;

* As FTP shows above, Carrier feels bound only by 'what is legal' when it come to the youth of his sex partners;

* The age of consent in most US states is 16. Camp Quest has attendees aged 16 -17.

It is therefore entirely reasonable to suspect that Dick Carrier will feel no moral or legal constraints on him propositioning, and if successful, having sex with, Camp Quest campers aged 16 - 17.

[comhcinc]

I think we have a substantial disagreement because I do think the teenage titties need protection. We've seen that Carrier thinks possible jail time is the only reason not to pursue a girl. The age of consent in Ohio is 16, which means a scenario with him chasing after some girl who hasn't even lived outside of her parents home yet is not just plausible, but likely. I have no idea what his thoughts on underage drinking are, but can probably guess, and now I'm hearing about a student getting blackout drunk with him and waking up in his room with no memory of the night (sound familiar to a recent event? Remember the outrage?). Having someone with that kind of moral character running in the circles of Camp Quest's leadership is completely unacceptable.

Like I said before. A relationship better a student and teacher (mentor, camp counselor) is unethical and I would not be okay with a person being in that teacher position that thinks otherwise. But Carrier cruising for high school poon at the mall on Friday nights? Creepy as fuck but whatever. Thinking of this as a father I think I just need to teach my kids that it's unwise to mess around with people like that. I think kids are over protected in this day and age.

[comhcinc]

Matt Cavanaugh

'The fact that the SSA and Camp Quest leadership and staff is chock-full of sexual deviants is alarming. Do you really trust the Semen Fetishist, Miri "How To Score At Cons" Mogilevski, or Greta "Shove My Head In A Toilet And Rape My Ass" Christina with teenagers and young adults?

This goes beyond the Pit's regular mockery of the Baboons. This is a serious scandal, and young, impressionable people are at definite risk'

Those are disgusting comments with no evidence to support them wahtsoever. IF there is evidence then fine, more than fine.

That is sjust a sample, they are easy to find.

While Matt engaged in a bit of insults, Greta does indeed write rape porn, Carrier is a semen fetishist, Midi did a talk on how to score at cons. These are established facts.

If you are objecting to the word "deviants", these activities do deviate from societal norms, therefore the word seems appropriate. If you object to the word's emotionally laden context, you might note it seems most people engaging in the lifestyle seem to embrace the use of the word.

What scandal are you referring to? There is some humorous speculation by John, but These are hardly serious accusations. Are we not to insult them now? Is the pit now a serious media outlet?

Oh come on. Dude really? We all know that "chock-full of sexual deviants is alarming" was meant as insult.

[Really?]

Here's an agenda from Camp Quest Northwest in which they discuss the purchase of sexual harassment insurance.

* Phil: Basic insurance was purchased based on 70 campers, and he can adjust this later as needed. The policy
does not cover sexual harassment allegations, which costs an extra $1,000. Should we get enhanced insurance to
cover this? The Board thinks it’s a good idea.
* Michael: What are the specific policy coverage criteria? We should have several Board members review the
wording. Phil: get the wording of the insurance policy (i.e., what are the exclusions?). Chuck: Inform Camp
Kirby that we’re doing this, and ask what they do for insurance.

https://campquestnorthwest.org/wp-conte ... 160524.pdf

Will the accusations against Carrier increase the insurance policy for Camp Quest National? The satellite organizations? Did Carrier's fuck buddy try to keep things quiet to prevent additional costs such as these?

Either way, please donate more money to Camp Quest and let us care for your child.

American Atheists is in the shit, too:

American Atheists will be partnering with Camp Quest to provide a mini-camp for children between the ages of 8 and 16. Teens between the ages of 13 and 18 can help as volunteer counselors-in-training (CITs). We will also provide daycare options for younger children between 6 months and 7 years old.

http://www.atheists.org/convention2014/code-of-conduct

Will AA break off any relationship with Camp Quest because some of those volunteer counselors in training are legal and ready to spreadeagle?


Camp Quest Oklahoma has a problem recruiting men. Could that be because men involved in the movement are terrified of having anything to do with any of these organizations because of the false allegations? Note the discussion of sexual harassment problems in the comments.

Camp Quest Oklahoma, a summer camp aimed at kids from freethinking families, is facing a major shortage of male counselors this summer. And that could mean turning away a lot of the boys currently enrolled.

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyat ... -oklahoma/


Freethought Day is related to Camp Quest; the latter provides a "Fun Zone" for children and obviously is happy to temporarily tattoo you and put you on Facebook, no matter how many women you've sexually harassed. Should parents feel safe bringing their children to future Freethought Days? You'll also note that they have a sexual harassment policy that really puts a damper on Carrier's game, not that it stops him.

Ask for consent before all inter-personal contact, respecting those who do not like to be touched and their personal space.

http://freethoughtday.org/policies.htm

[comhcinc]

I think you misunderstood his point there. Polyamory, open relationships, threesomes etc, almost always end badly. People get jealous, people get hurt. Sometimes it can get nasty.

Nothing wrong with sky diving either, but I wouldn't want my husband doing it every weekend.

Take sex out of the equation and even then, would you be coaching your kids to engage in practices where they are likely to be hurting people's feelings or putting relationships under stress? That's called being a douchebag... something that admittedly Carrier seems to be qualified to teach.

Remember (or maybe you don't know) I was in a poly relationship for years, and I know a lot of poly people. Why would I teach my kids that something I am fine with doing myself is wrong?

I am not saying it is wrong. It takes a certain kind of person with a certain kind of emotional maturity (or lack of emotion) to be able to navigate it. It is not for beginners, and it isn't for some people every, no matter how much they wish it.

There is a lot more to this conversation than, "Yeah, it's all good" and so it is not something I would want Carrier discussing with impressionable teens.

I agree with everything you said. Now is there any proof that Gretha or Carrier or anyone else is discussing this stuff with impressionable teens are Camp Quest?

[Really?]

I agree with everything you said. Now is there any proof that Gretha or Carrier or anyone else is discussing this stuff with impressionable teens are Camp Quest?

I'm pretty sure there were plenty of activities taking place at Second Mile camps that weren't on the official agenda.

http://media.pennlive.com/midstate_impa ... 9372f8.jpg

[comhcinc]

I agree with everything you said. Now is there any proof that Gretha or Carrier or anyone else is discussing this stuff with impressionable teens are Camp Quest?

I'm pretty sure there were plenty of activities taking place at Second Mile camps that weren't on the official agenda.

http://media.pennlive.com/midstate_impa ... 9372f8.jpg

And that has what to do with this?

[JackSkeptic]

I hate defending the baboons. Also my comments are not regarding carrier but the overflow of his behaviour to his assocaites. I wouldn't trust Carrier as far as I can throw him and there is sufficient evidence to make my feelings about him more than reasonable.

[jet_lagg]

The situations we've been talking about today (and the speculated ones in the future) are indisputably that of a mentor/mentee nature, so I take it we really do agree about the specifics in Carrier's case. I'm just angry enough about it that I'm ready to watch the entirety of SSA and Camp Quest burn (hyperbole btw, though I do think Amy is correct and there needs to be a regime change).

[VickyCaramel]

I agree with everything you said. Now is there any proof that Gretha or Carrier or anyone else is discussing this stuff with impressionable teens are Camp Quest?

Can you trust him not to?

As Carrier has already been dropped for inappropriate behaviour, seeing that most people here think he was inappropriate on Ophie's blog. Seeing as he cannot conduct appropriately in discourse with academics, and seeing as he gives an inappropriately authoritarian speeches at conferences, can you trust him to behave appropriately?

[Really?]

I agree with everything you said. Now is there any proof that Gretha or Carrier or anyone else is discussing this stuff with impressionable teens are Camp Quest?

I'm pretty sure there were plenty of activities taking place at Second Mile camps that weren't on the official agenda.

http://media.pennlive.com/midstate_impa ... 9372f8.jpg

And that has what to do with this?

As I said, Carrier isn't fucking children, but Camp Quest has shady shit going on. The administrators (intimately involved) are covering shit up. The expectation when a kid went to a Second Mile event is that they would learn about football. This wasn't always the case. The expectation when one attends an SSA event is that the individual will learn about secularism and activism. Nowhere in their brochures does it mention that a middle-aged Andy Dick lookalike is going to make aspergian small talk with you for hours before telling you that your hair is pretty and telling you that your driver's license picture must be pretty so you'll let him take a look to verify your birthday.

These assholes have spent five years making it look like the atheist/skeptic community was as full of rampaging Vikings, raping their way through TAM and every other gathering. Now organizations that specifically deal with kids and young people are covering up real sexual harassment.

[Really?]

I hate defending the baboons. Also my comments are not regarding carrier but the overflow of his behaviour to his assocaites. I wouldn't trust Carrier as far as I can throw him and there is sufficient evidence to make my feelings about him more than reasonable.

His associates deserve blame for his behavior because they did not publicly announce the situation with Carrier. Was this because they thought it wasn't important? Was this because they are all fucking each other? I don't know and it doesn't matter.

For the past five years, we've had to deal with public investigations of all of this shit, most of which turn out to be nothing. And now that an organization seems to have been covering up actual sexual harassment or worse, we just ignore it?

Carrier said he resigned from the SSA Speaker Board. Why wasn't he fired from it? Why didn't SSA make a statement to prove they don't approve of his behavior? Instead, they let his lie fester, at least in part because his wife is fucking him during their cross-country road trip.

[Sunder]

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/cosmosthei ... ias-fails/

[Matt Cavanaugh]

Second, I firmly believe it is a major PR problem that so many activists, leaders, and public faces of A/S are not just practitioners of aberrant sexuality, but also vocal advocates thereof. Humanists and other secularists loudly proclaim that they can be "good without god" and live decent, moral and normal lives just like everyone else. Yet we have two major secular orgs that work with children and young adults, SSA and Camp Quest, headed by a husband and wife team who openly engage in sex with multiple partners and likely group sex. They are currently in a menage a trois with someone accused of sexually harassing a college-age member of one of their orgs. We have conferences featuring talks on how to have one-night stands at conferences. We have speakers & volunteers who blog about group sex, semen fetishes, bestiality, etc. We have a pornographer specializing in bondage, humiliation and rape. Even a relatively mild chap like JT Eberhard feels the needs to advocate his open marriage lifestyle on his atheism blog.

I believe consenting adults should be free to do whatever they want with each other. But the leaders and public faces of a community widely maligned for being amoral & degenerate, must be squeaky clean.

[deLurch]

From Carrier's bat signal comments:

abear says

April 30, 2015 at 4:28 pm

Rick: I believe someone on your facebook page said they would take you up on your offer if they were 10 years younger. That piqued my curiosity as you didn’t mention age preferences. 18-58 sound about right?
Also, are you getting many replies?

Richard Carrier says

April 30, 2015 at 8:15 pm

Several good replies so far. And I don’t have any fixed rule about age, beyond what the law requires.

What I find attractive is subjective, personal, ineffable; incapable of useful definition.

Jackie the social justice WIZZARD!!! says

May 1, 2015 at 6:39 am

Why is that your business and why are you Facebook stalking Richard?

At least Carrier is willing to admit he wouldn't turn down a very young woman as long as they are legal.
Oh, and if Jackie the social justice WIZZARD!!! happens to be reading this, as unlikely as that is, it really wasn't any of my business but Dr. Carrier seemed pretty open to sharing the details of his particular inclinations and as I was aware that he was speaking at SSA events and was curious as to whether he might be in to chasing really young women, what with the atmosphere of campus safe spaces and a great deal of sensitivity these days to (esp.) young women being taken advantage of sexually. :naughty:
Reading a public figure's Facebook page is stalking now?

And what is legal in any given state depends on the various state laws and the age of consent, so that could dip below the age of 18.

[Bhurzum]

Whilst I may not be poly myself and I certainly don't pretend to understand the mindset, I do openly support the interaction(s) between consenting adults providing nobody gets hurt.

If Dr. Dick wants to serial fuck his way through the youth of America, I say more power to him! You stuffy old farts should be offering up your kids to the spunk-hobbit and hoping that he gives them a thoroughly good seeing to. Not only that, the government should pay Dr. Dickie a small stipend to offset the cost of buying beer, anal lube and condoms.

Good for you Dr. Carrier!

https://i.imgflip.com/chf7x.jpg

Note: If you have a young daughter (16-17 years old) and relish the thought of a 40+ year old loser throat-fucking her until she gags, why not fill in an application for Camp Quest? Go on, spoil your little princess today.

Oh, and don't worry about consent - Dr. Dickie is highly intelligent (he's got a PhD!!1!!1!one!1!) and will have little trouble manipulating the highly impressionable mind of your child in order to secure consent. Before butt fucking her. Then going ass to mouth.

[free thoughtpolice]

In noncarrier news, did you know Becky is anti-doxxing?
[youtube]UusuQYluhEk[/youtube]

From the comments:

Wow. What kind of scumbag would dox someone just because they happen to have different opinions on things or get angry at their sense of humor?

[Really?]

Second, I firmly believe it is a major PR problem that so many activists, leaders, and public faces of A/S are not just practitioners of aberrant sexuality, but also vocal advocates thereof. Humanists and other secularists loudly proclaim that they can be "good without god" and live decent, moral and normal lives just like everyone else. Yet we have two major secular orgs that work with children and young adults, SSA and Camp Quest, headed by a husband and wife team who openly engage in sex with multiple partners and likely group sex. They are currently in a menage a trois with someone accused of sexually harassing a college-age member of one of their orgs. We have conferences featuring talks on how to have one-night stands at conferences. We have speakers & volunteers who blog about group sex, semen fetishes, bestiality, etc. We have a pornographer specializing in bondage, humiliation and rape. Even a relatively mild chap like JT Eberhard feels the needs to advocate his open marriage lifestyle on his atheism blog.

I believe consenting adults should be free to do whatever they want with each other. But the leaders and public faces of a community widely maligned for being amoral & degenerate, must be squeaky clean.

See, that's where you're wrong. Richard Dawkins is the public face of the community and he thinks Islam discriminates against women. That's unacceptable. Michael Shermer sells a lot of books and he GASP had sex with a grown-ass adult woman and didn't livestream it on Periscope to show everyone how much fun atheism can be. Hitchens is dead and hated Islamic terrorism. Unacceptable. Sam Harris is also opposed to Islamic terror. That's no good.

No wonder there are so many goddamn Salon articles about atheism's white male problem.

[johnself]

This poster hits the nail on the head on why this is going to be a public relation nightmare for CQ:

People are concerned about Carrier's involvement in Camp Quest. When Neil (and Shawn, at Camp Quest's page) show up to tell me, "don't worry, Carrier was only involved as a volunteer back in 2009 and nothing since", I assume they're addressing that fear. Then a minute later someone shows up with photos Camp Quest posted in 2015 of Carrier at their event, and I'm seeing Carrier's name on the most recent lists of Camp Quest's volunteers and friends.

Let me put it another way. Pretend the police are looking for a fugitive and come to my door asking if he's in the house. I say no, but it turns out he's actually sitting on my couch. I then tell the police that, under NYC law, the building is not classified as a "house" and I was therefore being completely truthful. How satisfied do you think the cops would be with that answer?

https://m.facebook.com/comment/replies/ ... l&refid=52

[CommanderTuvok]

“There is a new atheism brewing, and it’s the rift we need, to cut free the dead weight so we can kick the C.H.U.D.’s back into the sewers and finally disown them, once and for all […] to start a blog series building a system of shared values that separates the light side of the force from the dark side within the atheism movement, so we could start marginalizing the evil in our midst, and grooming the next generation more consistently and clearly into a system of more enlightened humanist values.”

No comment.

As I keep fucking saying - the SJWs and FTBullies are all fucking kiddie fiddlers and rapists. The evidence is right in front of our faces, or in Carrier's case, ON people's faces.

[Really?]

Whilst I may not be poly myself and I certainly don't pretend to understand the mindset, I do openly support the interaction(s) between consenting adults providing nobody gets hurt.

If Dr. Dick wants to serial fuck his way through the youth of America, I say more power to him! You stuffy old farts should be offering up your kids to the spunk-hobbit and hoping that he gives them a thoroughly good seeing to. Not only that, the government should pay Dr. Dickie a small stipend to offset the cost of buying beer, anal lube and condoms.

Good for you Dr. Carrier!

https://i.imgflip.com/chf7x.jpg

Note: If you have a young daughter (16-17 years old) and relish the thought of a 40+ year old loser throat-fucking her until she gags, why not fill in an application for Camp Quest? Go on, spoil your little princess today.

Oh, and don't worry about consent - Dr. Dickie is highly intelligent (he's got a PhD!!1!!1!one!1!) and will have little trouble manipulating the highly impressionable mind of your child in order to secure consent. Before butt fucking her. Then going ass to mouth.

What a strange coincidence! Noted atheist/rape porn expert/Camp Quest participant Greta Christina is just now polishing up her new DragonCon talk: "Ass to Mouth: Not Just For Secondary Partners Anymore."

https://campquest.org/sites/campquest.o ... thFSMs.JPG

[deLurch]

Seems to me some people here smell blood in the water and are getting caught up in a feeding frenzy.
My 2 cents.

I don't think you are wrong.
I think that people are excited to see what happens when Carrier gets measured by his own average stick. We also know how these hunts tend to end. People are expecting a huge dose of schadenfreude.

[CaptainFluffyBunny]

Matt Cavanaugh

'The fact that the SSA and Camp Quest leadership and staff is chock-full of sexual deviants is alarming. Do you really trust the Semen Fetishist, Miri "How To Score At Cons" Mogilevski, or Greta "Shove My Head In A Toilet And Rape My Ass" Christina with teenagers and young adults?

This goes beyond the Pit's regular mockery of the Baboons. This is a serious scandal, and young, impressionable people are at definite risk'

Those are disgusting comments with no evidence to support them wahtsoever. IF there is evidence then fine, more than fine.

That is sjust a sample, they are easy to find.

While Matt engaged in a bit of insults, Greta does indeed write rape porn, Carrier is a semen fetishist, Midi did a talk on how to score at cons. These are established facts.

If you are objecting to the word "deviants", these activities do deviate from societal norms, therefore the word seems appropriate. If you object to the word's emotionally laden context, you might note it seems most people engaging in the lifestyle seem to embrace the use of the word.

What scandal are you referring to? There is some humorous speculation by John, but These are hardly serious accusations. Are we not to insult them now? Is the pit now a serious media outlet?

Oh come on. Dude really? We all know that "chock-full of sexual deviants is alarming" was meant as insult.

Uh...yeah? He's not writing an article, he's posting on the pit. Again, not following why insults are suddenly off the table. Perhaps you could elaborate?

[comhcinc]

I agree with everything you said. Now is there any proof that Gretha or Carrier or anyone else is discussing this stuff with impressionable teens are Camp Quest?

Can you trust him not to?

As Carrier has already been dropped for inappropriate behaviour, seeing that most people here think he was inappropriate on Ophie's blog. Seeing as he cannot conduct appropriately in discourse with academics, and seeing as he gives an inappropriately authoritarian speeches at conferences, can you trust him to behave appropriately?

I have already said I don't think Carrier should be around any students of any age. My issue isn't some much with him as it is rounding up of everyone else who find the missionary position to get boring.

[CommanderTuvok]

Carrier: [looking smug]...so, Columbo, looks like the phantom face jizzer is going to get away with his sexual harassment at Camp Quest?

Columbo: Sure seems that way [puts the hand he is holding his cigar in to his head].

Carrier: Well, now that you've wasted three days dogging my every move, you can now move on knowing you've been defeated by an intellectual colossus. Move along now.

Gee, shucks, I guess so. You sure are smart! [Columbo walks towards the door, getting half outside, while Carrier begins to pour himself a glass of Champagne......but then Columbo pauses, and turns around...]

Columbo: Just one more thing, Sir.

Carrier: What is it now, you irritant?

Columbo: This photograph, Sir. [Columbo whips out the photo of Carrier at Camp Quest and shows it him] This is you at Camp Quest, with the tattoo.

[The screen freezes with a smiling Columbo holding up the photograph....yellow title fonts roll]

[Lsuoma]

...

At the moment, I'm working my way through the "Project Nimbus" collectors edition.

[img].http://www.frankbellamy.co.uk/images/books/t_Nimbus.jpg[/img]

...

(I've got the complete "Nemesis the warlock" "Slaine - Time killers" and "Judge Dredd - Dredd Vs Death" to go so it's not all bad)

Love Nemisis - I always enjoy any comic where characters break into song as part of the action. ( "With sword, and axe and mace, we cleanse and purify, we never show any mercy, all aliens must die, die, die"). It was easy to see the catholic influence from the authors.

Well you seem like a man of taste and refinement - so don't need any more suggestions from me.

...

Except one - 'The Trigon Empire'...and 'Robusters' and 'Sam Slade, Robohunter' and 'Zenith'...


OK, I'll shut up now.

The Ballad of Halo Jones. A somewhat forgotten Alan Moore masterpiece that he did for 2000AD.

I believe it's actually the TrigAn Empire. Trigo was the founder. I remember seeing that first in Ranger, a short-lived comic which got absorbed into Look and Learn. It was the articles about August 1914 that sparked my lifelong interest in the Great War. I'm guessing it came out around 1967.

[CommanderTuvok]

Oh, and Heina and all you "guests" - you can thank us later for digging up all the evidence about Carrier, for you.

[CaptainFluffyBunny]

Seems to me some people here smell blood in the water and are getting caught up in a feeding frenzy.
My 2 cents.

I don't think you are wrong.
I think that people are excited to see what happens when Carrier gets measured by his own average stick. We also know how these hunts tend to end. People are expecting a huge dose of schadenfreude.

I really think the only way these people will learn about the harm these witch hunts cause is when it starts happening to their own. Perhaps not even then, as in Benson's case, but there is some hope. And at the very least bystanders will start realizing that witch hunts are not uncommon and they hurt people.

In this case, it isn't even a witch hunt. It seems abundantly clear that Carrier crossed a line and that's Quest allowed him to continue.

[comhcinc]

Oh come on. Dude really? We all know that "chock-full of sexual deviants is alarming" was meant as insult.

Uh...yeah? He's not writing an article, he's posting on the pit. Again, not following why insults are suddenly off the table. Perhaps you could elaborate?

Never said he couldn't or shouldn't do it. I said I find his remarks to be prudish. Just my take on things.

I think your brain isn't working right. You need to either take more or less of the meds you are on.


Less is no fun, take more! :D

[deLurch]

Personally, I am more enthralled with the fact that Carrier claims that his accuser lied, and therefore should not be trusted, while in the same statement fabricate lies which can be shown using his own document.

[CaptainFluffyBunny]

I agree with everything you said. Now is there any proof that Gretha or Carrier or anyone else is discussing this stuff with impressionable teens are Camp Quest?

Can you trust him not to?

As Carrier has already been dropped for inappropriate behaviour, seeing that most people here think he was inappropriate on Ophie's blog. Seeing as he cannot conduct appropriately in discourse with academics, and seeing as he gives an inappropriately authoritarian speeches at conferences, can you trust him to behave appropriately?

I don't think that's the case here. Camp Quest allowed Carrier to continue his affiliation with them after the allegation and knowing he violated the rules. Carrier is involved with Camp Quest's management in an intimate way. Regardless of what they officially teach, there is a clear indication that kids might be learning more than they or their parents bargained for. How can that not be an issue?
I have already said I don't think Carrier should be around any students of any age. My issue isn't some much with him as it is rounding up of everyone else who find the missionary position to get boring.

[Bhurzum]

Less is no fun, take more! :D

That's what Dr. Dickie said to the 17 year old girl...

[HunnyBunny]

Second, I firmly believe it is a major PR problem that so many activists, leaders, and public faces of A/S are not just practitioners of aberrant sexuality, but also vocal advocates thereof. Humanists and other secularists loudly proclaim that they can be "good without god" and live decent, moral and normal lives just like everyone else. Yet we have two major secular orgs that work with children and young adults, SSA and Camp Quest, headed by a husband and wife team who openly engage in sex with multiple partners and likely group sex. They are currently in a menage a trois with someone accused of sexually harassing a college-age member of one of their orgs. We have conferences featuring talks on how to have one-night stands at conferences. We have speakers & volunteers who blog about group sex, semen fetishes, bestiality, etc. We have a pornographer specializing in bondage, humiliation and rape. Even a relatively mild chap like JT Eberhard feels the needs to advocate his open marriage lifestyle on his atheism blog.

I believe consenting adults should be free to do whatever they want with each other. But the leaders and public faces of a community widely maligned for being amoral & degenerate, must be squeaky clean.

There is no ménage a trios. There is no evidence of involvement by the Executive Director of SSA in the relationship between his wife and Carrier. There are no photos of Carrier and the husband together that I can find despite the fact that'll three attended the same co free cels. They aren't friends on Facebook.

[CaptainFluffyBunny]

Yay, quote fuckup.

[deLurch]

One item that sticks out for me in Carrier's testimony is that he says that his statement was shown to his accuser via SSA and that she found it acceptable. But the account he tells is of a different woman. What if the SSA showed Carrier's statement to the woman that it involved, and not the one that had made the complaint.

It would certainly explain a lot as to why Carrier's story doesn't mesh as he was continuing to conflate two different women.

[HunnyBunny]

Co free cells??? Fuck iPad auto correct. Conferences.

[CaptainFluffyBunny]

I agree with everything you said. Now is there any proof that Gretha or Carrier or anyone else is discussing this stuff with impressionable teens are Camp Quest?

Can you trust him not to?

As Carrier has already been dropped for inappropriate behaviour, seeing that most people here think he was inappropriate on Ophie's blog. Seeing as he cannot conduct appropriately in discourse with academics, and seeing as he gives an inappropriately authoritarian speeches at conferences, can you trust him to behave appropriately?

I have already said I don't think Carrier should be around any students of any age. My issue isn't some much with him as it is rounding up of everyone else who find the missionary position to get boring.

I don't think that's the case here. Camp Quest allowed Carrier to continue his affiliation with them after the allegation and knowing he violated the rules. Carrier is involved with Camp Quest's management in an intimate way. Regardless of what they officially teach, there is a clear indication that kids might be learning more than they or their parents bargained for. How can that not be an issue?

Fixed attribution error.

[Easy J]

Seems to me some people here smell blood in the water and are getting caught up in a feeding frenzy.
My 2 cents.

I don't think you are wrong.
I think that people are excited to see what happens when Carrier gets measured by his own average stick. We also know how these hunts tend to end. People are expecting a huge dose of schadenfreude.

I'll cop to it. I came to the whole schism by way of Carrier's CHUD post & attendant A+ bullshit. Seeing this squalid little fuck go down around the same time the A+ forums croaked has made my week.

Humans seem to have a universal reaction to hypocrisy. Especially when it's perpetrated by people holding themselves out as morally superior. We also like the irony of the bad guy getting a taste of his own medicine. Carrier's has much to recommend it.

[Really?]

Second, I firmly believe it is a major PR problem that so many activists, leaders, and public faces of A/S are not just practitioners of aberrant sexuality, but also vocal advocates thereof. Humanists and other secularists loudly proclaim that they can be "good without god" and live decent, moral and normal lives just like everyone else. Yet we have two major secular orgs that work with children and young adults, SSA and Camp Quest, headed by a husband and wife team who openly engage in sex with multiple partners and likely group sex. They are currently in a menage a trois with someone accused of sexually harassing a college-age member of one of their orgs. We have conferences featuring talks on how to have one-night stands at conferences. We have speakers & volunteers who blog about group sex, semen fetishes, bestiality, etc. We have a pornographer specializing in bondage, humiliation and rape. Even a relatively mild chap like JT Eberhard feels the needs to advocate his open marriage lifestyle on his atheism blog.

I believe consenting adults should be free to do whatever they want with each other. But the leaders and public faces of a community widely maligned for being amoral & degenerate, must be squeaky clean.

There is no ménage a trios. There is no evidence of involvement by the Executive Director of SSA in the relationship between his wife and Carrier. There are no photos of Carrier and the husband together that I can find despite the fact that'll three attended the same co free cels. They aren't friends on Facebook.

You have to admit that it's pretty fishy when you go to the Camp Quest and SSA Facebook pages and see each organization commenting on the wall of the other, knowing that all the comments might be typed on the same laptop.

[comhcinc]

Less is no fun, take more! :D

That's what Dr. Dickie said to the 17 year old girl...

[youtube]CloEsLecn5A[/youtube]

[CaptainFluffyBunny]

Oh come on. Dude really? We all know that "chock-full of sexual deviants is alarming" was meant as insult.

Uh...yeah? He's not writing an article, he's posting on the pit. Again, not following why insults are suddenly off the table. Perhaps you could elaborate?

Never said he couldn't or shouldn't do it. I said I find his remarks to be prudish. Just my take on things.

I think your brain isn't working right. You need to either take more or less of the meds you are on.


Less is no fun, take more! :D

No, I just see that their lifestyle may be implicit in allowing Carrier to continue affiliation despite there being a complaint and despite knowing what he was up to regarding students. Carrier made it very clear where he drew the line, and it went way past Camp Quest's line. But they kept him.

[Matt Cavanaugh]

Oh come on. Dude really? We all know that "chock-full of sexual deviants is alarming" was meant as insult.

Uh...yeah? He's not writing an article, he's posting on the pit. Again, not following why insults are suddenly off the table. Perhaps you could elaborate?

Just wait 'til you read the article!

[Bhurzum]

Less is no fun, take more! :D

That's what Dr. Dickie said to the 17 year old girl...

[youtube]CloEsLecn5A[/youtube]

:lol: :lol: :lol: