The Refuge of the Toads

[Bourne Skeptic]

Brothers, brothers. let us not fight! We should join together to fight the common enemy...

I say we drive out all non-conformers until we achieve ideological purity.

[Matt Cavanaugh]

I'd venture that a lot of secular parents are gonna be shocked when they discover just how many sexual deviants are working for SSA & CQ, mentoring and teaching morals to their kids.

[hippodown]

Brothers, brothers. let us not fight! We should join together to fight the common enemy...

I say we drive out all non-conformers until we achieve ideological purity.

You dont mean........The Judean Peoples Front?

[Guest_84d94f98]

Blogs are up at Richard Carrier's new abode. Comments have been preserved. It also appears that he has screwed up the links to his own blog, as they still point to freethoughtblogs.

richardcarrier.info

So far based on spot checking, I do not see any evidence of memory holing yet.

[Guest_84d94f98]

On the plus side, I guess we now have an open blogs to ask Richard Carrier questions over debated issues.

-Soylent f98

[Really?]

Assuming uniform sampling, that is. That assumption may be safe, or not. We've no idea about his personal preferences wrt age, but he does seem to prefer experience to inexperience.

If we don't assume uniform sampling, all your crap about running the numbers is so much horseshit.

How are we supposed to know what Carrier is into? We simply don't know. We must assume that Carrier's prospective girlfriends range in age from the legal age of consent of the municipality in which he is speaking to the death of the woman in question. It's not as though there are some common traits that attract most men.

[free thoughtpolice]

If I had kids to send to summer camp I'd like them to hear about Snow White and the 7 Average sized Caucasians. :geek:

[Bourne Skeptic]

Brothers, brothers. let us not fight! We should join together to fight the common enemy...

I say we drive out all non-conformers until we achieve ideological purity.

You dont mean........The Judean Peoples Front?

Scoff, NO. I mean The People's Front of Judea!

[Skep tickle]

<snip>

...you shouldn't get to decide for all the parents, nor the donors. Transparency and sunlight.

I agree with the sentiment, naturally. Would all the other Camp Quest parents and donors here please raise their hands?

:greetings-wavingyellow:

I have never had any concerns about the organization. I think that people who are suggesting anything inappropriate has taken place at any CQ event are doing so without evidence & are casting about wildly. If evidence exists, then show it please.

My involvement to date:
- I helped organize the medical & nursing portion of one region's summer camp one year, including talking by phone to Amanda, who was very knowledgeable, helpful, and professional.
- My kid attended camp for 2 summers (at ages 16 & 17) and loved it.
- I know and respect many of the people who have run the Camp Quest in my region.

What CQ offers is really appealing & useful for many families especially in religion-seeped areas.

The regions are sort of like franchises, running fairly autonomously (at least in areas distant from OH), with guidance & support when needed from the national organization.

In addition to summer camp, Camp Quests (Camps Quest?) often offer activities for kids for a day here & there in other settings, including providing childcare at some A/S/H conferences or offering a day of fun science-y stuff outside of summer.

At summer camp, the kids are assigned to cabins based on age & gender, with each cabin's counselor being the same gender as the kids in that cabin. AFAICT, the counselors are conscientious about the kids' safety.

Some key differences between Camp Quest & SSA, beyond the age of the students who participate:

• The kids are there with the approval & support of their parents or guardians
• The adults & counselors are all aware that maintaining safety of the kids is a top priority
• Often, some of the counselors are parents of kids attending the camp
• Most of the kids haven't started (or even seriously considered) dating or sex
• There isn't (to my knowledge) a "speaker's bureau"
• There isn't an after-party (with or without alcohol) that the kids attend
• There aren't conferences that the kids attend (just the CQ Leadership Summit, for adults)

Now, it might have been that a (paid? part-time) staff role with CQ had been suggested and was one reason Dr Carrier moved to OH - that's purely speculation, but could explain that FB employment entry (screencap was posted a few pages back). Who knows. If so, presumably that offer is off the table, due to the SSA situation (or, at least, publicity over the SSA situation).
___

d4m10n not infrequently comes across as a gadfly here, playing devil's advocate, pointing out what he sees as inconsistencies and even (gasp) hypocrisy here.

IMO that input is valuable, though usually unappreciated*.

*understatement alert

[Really?]

I'd venture that a lot of secular parents are gonna be shocked when they discover just how many sexual deviants are working for SSA & CQ, mentoring and teaching morals to their kids.

It wouldn't bother me so much if they kept their sexual needs under wraps or at least in the right context. But it seems like all of these people are polyamorous and sex positive and won't shut up about it at conferences unless they're accusing someone of sexual harassment.

Randi was banging a dude on the side for years, apparently. I don't give a shit. I would have given a shit if his TAM keynote speech was "Secular Blowjobs: How Following the Circumcision Scar Reflects Our Skeptical Values."

[hippodown]

[quote="Bourne Skeptic"

I say we drive out all non-conformers until we achieve ideological purity.

You dont mean........The Judean Peoples Front?

Scoff, NO. I mean The People's Front of Judea![/quote]

Oh. Them. Right.

[AndrewV69]

It's getting hard for those of us who would like to see a proper socialist experiment succeed. In Canada, the Conservatives are the party who borrow and spend to the most profligate degree, and the NDP (theoretically the reddest party) who are the most fiscally responsible. I assume that is because they generally have little experience of power and are horrified when they examine the books of the outgoing government, and being well-intentioned they set about balancing those books rather than bringing about the socialist utopia of Ontario or workers' paradise of Alberta. All the fuckers ever did in Nova Scotia was to destroy public health care. I was always willing to pay high tax rates to provide the society I wanted to live in, but there are no parties or candidates any more who would do what I would prefer. Sod it: I always knew it was possible to live too long, but I didn't expect it to be true at my tender age.

The spendthrifts in Ontarioioioio are Liberals yes? The NDP in Alberta are spending like no tomorrow too yes?

The odious Conservatives under Harper "technically" left a small surplus which the Federal Liberal government openly said they were were going to spend and they are going to run more than one deficit yes?

Are you thinking of Lying Brian Mulroooony the greatest actor that ever lived? The one who rivaled Imelda Marcos in the shoe storage space?

[hippodown]

Doh!

[CaptainFluffyBunny]

That they allowed somebody that openly dates and bangs students (and isn't at all concerned about STDs) to be in a situation that exposes him to students really doesn't speak well of their character.

I'm wondering if you think that Carrier is the only person who uses SSA and CQ activities as opportunities for sex with students. It seems very likely to me that there are many people doing that. Does that trouble you any, and if so, do you think SSA and CQ should be doing anything about it?

What troubles me most, Jim, is that the director of Camp Quest must have known, as she was screwing Carrier, as would her husband, the head of the SSA, who allowed Carrier to keep speaking at SSA events when they knew he pursued students. It is every bit as creepy as it sounds, and every bit as unprofessional.

[CaptainFluffyBunny]

snip
I've met her once or twice, at atheist events such as Camp Quest. Unlike most everyone here, I'm actually involved with these groups IRL.

So you know my real life identity, interesting.

[CaptainFluffyBunny]

Brothers, brothers. let us not fight! We should join together to fight the common enemy...

We are not fighting amongst ourselves. In his more lucid moments Damion...sorry, d4m10n will disavow the slymepit.

[Really?]

snip...

d4m10n not infrequently comes across as a gadfly here, playing devil's advocate, pointing out what he sees as inconsistencies and even (gasp) hypocrisy here.

IMO that input is valuable, though usually unappreciated*.

*understatement alert

I agree with you that Camp Quest does a lot of good and that aside from an inevitable bad apple somewhere, the organization is filled with good people who just want to create a place where kids make good memories, etc.

My concern is that everyone is about appearances and the like. Fairly or unfairly, some crazy people tar a whole organization with a smear, particularly when the organization (at least the national center) is up to something a little fishy. The Subway sandwich company and 99.9% of the people who work for it abhor child molestation. But you had a lot of silly people pointing to the Jared Fogle thing and saying, "I refuse to go to Subway! They molest children!"

Charities and organizations like Camp Quest are at even greater risk. Is Livestrong doing very well? Everyone in the organization was trying to do good work for the benefit of others...the image problem with Lance Armstrong torpedoed everything. The Susan G Komen Foundation has had some problems with image.

Do I think there's a higher chance of anything happening at Camp Quest than other camps? No. But a significant number of people are crazy and will not see the nuance. I'm also sure Metskas is essentially a good person and that she loves the organization and its mission. But part of that means you have to be careful about the public image you project. Notice how everything was fine until Carrier? Unless she and her husband just became polyamorous recently, they've been doing their thing for a long time without incident, which is good. They're apparently not hurting anyone.

Then Carrier bounds into the room, bragging about his semen fetish, filling his bedpost with student notches and laying moves on girls less than half his age after speaking engagements. Carrier had a decision to make. Did he want to be perceived as a serious scholar? Or as an SJW feminist ladies man PUA? He made his choice and he chose an impossible road. It's just like any other situation. You need to choose partners who are a little discreet and who keep their mouths shut, especially if you are running a charity catering to young people.

Metskas should have known Carrier was bad news for the organization. Both of them, actually. Had there been more transparency, many of us would feel differently. Say SSA came out with a statement in May 2015: 'Carrier has been touching hair...we have prohibited him from speaking at or attending SSA events.' Done. Instead, they seem to have bribed an accuser with hush money and didn't even prevent the accused from hanging around the same convention as the victim. And didn't say anything as he kept talking at SSA events.

[CaptainFluffyBunny]

Keep harping on your lived experience Damion, because that's all you've got in this fight.

And I intended to be involved in Camp Quest now that my generation of the family is having kids of their own, but given the disingenuous shit I'm getting from you, and I've seen on FB, I might have to reconsider.

Frankly, I'd rather you steer clear. Anyone who tends to throw around baseless accusations and foment moral panic is probably bad for the organization as a whole.

You think that's bad for them, wait 'til you read the Breitbart article. Holy creamed coeds, Batman!

[Matt Cavanaugh]

Now, it might have been that a (paid? part-time) staff role with CQ had been suggested and was one reason Dr Carrier moved to OH - that's purely speculation, but could explain that FB employment entry (screencap was posted a few pages back). Who knows. If so, presumably that offer is off the table, due to the SSA situation (or, at least, publicity over the SSA situation).

That Metskas lined up a job for her paramour is the only logical conclusion to be made from that FB post. That speaks to her lack of ethics and good judgement, as does her subsequent cover-up.

As I've mentioned, I have worked in both paid and volunteer capacities for overnight summer camps, and used to run my own day riding camp. The utmost propriety must be taken and, moreover, be shown to be taken. Of particular import is how to respond -- or rather, not respond -- to flirting or sexual innuendo from minors. Yet Amanda Metskas, ED of the entire national org, likely offered a job to -- and certainly previously accepted volunteer work from -- someone known by her to have a problem with making inappropriate and unwanted sexual advances to young women at events and functions, someone against whom serious allegations had recently been made. Someone who has shown in words and deeds that he has no respect for boundaries. Someone who's announced to the world that he's interested in propositioning for sex girls as young as 16, 17 or 18. That was a gross dereliction of her duty to her org, compounded by the fact that she is fucking the person in question.

I don't care how professional Metskas sounded over the phone; she shat the bed on this one.

[Skep tickle]

A good write up that I saw over at KIwi Farms about a backer of Brianna Wu's Kickstarter that has become fed up at the endless waiting for her game to be released on Steam.



Where's the fucking game Wu?? :mrgreen:

She ain't got nuttin on Heina: Here's Ms Dadabhoy's time line:

Heina Dadabhoy kickstarter
raised ~10K as of end of campaign, Aug 24, 2012.


Aug 24 2012: (First update since the end of the fundraising campaign) She thanks her backers. then:
"My next immediate step ... will be to launch a webpage. Be on the lookout for that within the month." (No website was ever set up.)

A 3 month gap until the next update...

Nov 19 2012: "My manuscript should be done by the end of the year." (It wasn't)

Backer comments:
Greg Cason on April 25, 2013: "Hi Heina. Any further updates? I'm so anxious to read the book! Thanks,"

Marc Baker on April 30, 2013: "Hello Heina, Please let us know where you're at in the process. Thanks!:

Leah Weaver on May 31, 2013: "Hi, just wondering what the status of the project is. Thank you!"

A 7 month gap until the next update...

Jun 20 2013: "I'm working on it and I hope to be done within the next 4 weeks" (She wasn't)
She lists "I neglected to post any updates for many months." as a mistake. (Which, as you will see, apparently turned into a habit.)

Selected backer comments:
James LeRoux on June 20, 2013: "Yay upcoming book! I'm looking forward to reading it, and I hope you give it the time and effort it deserves."

Jamie Bernstein on June 21, 2013: "Heina, I'm so fucking proud of you! Seriously. I can't wait to see the final product!"

Jim B on October 31, 2013: "Heina, could we get another update about where things stand? It is better to hear that you are still a month away from finishing rather than getting five months of silence. Thanks"

A 5 month gap until the next update...

Nov 20 2013 "I should have my manuscript into my publisher by year's end." (She didn't)
"A lot of things got in the way, but nothing will get in the way of my fulfilling my promise to have a book for you." (Apparently she did let things get in the way).

Selected backer comments:
Ericka Otterman on November 20, 2013: "Getting this email notification is making me do the "Happy New-Book-I-Want-To-Read-Is-Coming-Out-Soonish Dance."

chris koontz on January 20, 2014: "Any update?"

Richard Murray on April 29, 2014: "So... did that manuscript get in? I'd love to hear an occasional update on the process."

A 6 month gap until the next update...

May 27 2014: "I will make a solid promise: If I do not submit the manuscript to Pitchstone Publishing by this fall, I will refund your money. ... that is my pledge." (bold in original! She did not refund anyone's money.)

Selected backer comments:
Ryan Moran on July 19, 2014: "... I'm confident the finished product will be awesome, ..."

Jason Murray on September 29, 2014: "So Autumn is here. Any word on an update? ... I would simply like to know if or when I can expect to receive it. Could you please update your backers."

Richard Murray on November 25, 2014: "So... Winter's coming December 21st... any update?"

A 10 month gap until the next update...

March 8 2015: "A *hard date* has been set for publication: December 2015." (that *hard date* turned out to be not so hard: first pushed back 3 months to March 2016, then another 4 months to July 2016, and now another 5 months to Dec 2016) "I *will* be posting little backer-only updates containing some pre-edited text in the coming weeks and months." (She never did.)

Selected Backer comments:
Ericka Otterman on March 8, 2015: "Yay! *happy dance*"

Richard Murray on March 8, 2015: 'That sounds nice, but you could have posted a update since May of last year. It's been nearly a year since the last update stating "If I do not submit the manuscript to Pitchstone Publishing by this fall, I will refund your money." No email, twitter, facebook replies when I tried to contact you about status of the project. Is the manuscript complete and in their hands? With editors, etc? A hard date based on an in-hand manuscrip, or is this contingent on you hitting some sort of deadines?"

Richard Murray on March 8, 2015: "What's up, Heina? You block me from seeing your facebook because I commented here to ask you a question and you said (before blocking me) that you weren't fussed by my comment because I'm an anti-feminist that doesn't matter? Classy. When are those refunds being processed?"

Richard Murray on March 31, 2015: "Heina; In our chat on Facebook Messenger on March 9th, you had mentioned "I will be posting weekly updates". So, how's things?"

Richard Murray on September 14, 2015: "Amazon's listing this as "Available for Pre-order. This item will be released on October 1 2015." Is that correct?"

Gabe Krabbe on November 2, 2015: "Hi Heina - it's now 1 month before Pitchstone's hard date; any news about the ebook versions your update said they'd ship about 3 months ahead?"

Jason Murray on December 12, 2015: "Hey Heina - given that we are now well in to December 2015, is there any word on if or when your backers can ever expect to receive your book?"

Del M on December 24, 2015: "It's now listed as being released March 31, 2016"

Jim B on February 19, 2016: "Amazon now says July 31, 2016"

Matt Jamont on April 7, 2016: "Hi Heina, Any news? There haven't been any updates for over a year. I'm just curious where the project is at..."

Gabe Krabbe on April 21, 2016: "According to [Amazon], the expected publication date is July 2016. That would make the three-months-before shipping date about now. But after the complete lack of effort H has put into communicating here in the past, I will continue not to hold my breath."

Jason Youngberg on May 16, 2016: "Any word on this? I'd really like my copy of the book."

Jim B on June 25, 2016: "Amazon is now showing a publishing date of Dec 6, 2016."

A 15+ month gap (and counting) since the last update...

Would you stop exaggerating?!?!! She raised $9620, not "~10K" as you said.

And Kickstarter fees are pretty hefty, 5% of total fees raised, plus: 3% + $0.20 per pledge $10 or over, or 5% + $0.05 per pledge under $10. :cry:

Back of the envelope calculation, that left her with something like $8673...out of the $5K she'd set as her goal.

And don't get on her case! She's busy with other things. From June 2016:
http://i.imgur.com/SvPAcjc.png

[jet_lagg]

<snip>
d4m10n not infrequently comes across as a gadfly here, playing devil's advocate, pointing out what he sees as inconsistencies and even (gasp) hypocrisy here.

IMO that input is valuable, though usually unappreciated*.

*understatement alert

Seeing as that input often involves strawmanning or straight up lying about other people's positions, I'm not going to shed any tears over him not getting the appreciation he's due, but sure everyone has their 2 cents to add. That's why I'm dedicated to the idea of an open forum.

[Really?]

Now, it might have been that a (paid? part-time) staff role with CQ had been suggested and was one reason Dr Carrier moved to OH - that's purely speculation, but could explain that FB employment entry (screencap was posted a few pages back). Who knows. If so, presumably that offer is off the table, due to the SSA situation (or, at least, publicity over the SSA situation).

That Metskas lined up a job for her paramour is the only logical conclusion to be made from that FB post. That speaks to her lack of ethics and good judgement, as does her subsequent cover-up.

As I've mentioned, I have worked in both paid and volunteer capacities for overnight summer camps, and used to run my own day riding camp. The utmost propriety must be taken and, moreover, be shown to be taken. Of particular import is how to respond -- or rather, not respond -- to flirting or sexual innuendo from minors. Yet Amanda Metskas, ED of the entire national org, likely offered a job to -- and certainly previously accepted volunteer work from -- someone known by her to have a problem with making inappropriate and unwanted sexual advances to young women at events and functions, someone against whom serious allegations had recently been made. Someone who has shown in words and deeds that he has no respect for boundaries. Someone who's announced to the world that he's interested in propositioning for sex girls as young as 16, 17 or 18. That was a gross dereliction of her duty to her org, compounded by the fact that she is fucking the person in question.

I don't care how professional Metskas sounded over the phone; she shat the bed on this one.

Don't tell me you wouldn't jeopardize two important A/S organizations for this:

[youtube]ANBHWXpt5i0[/youtube]

[AndrewV69]

BTW:

Anyone have a machine readable source for this? I suppose I should go back and see who posted it and send a PM?

Vorwort / before you read for Germans

[Parody Accountant]

Provided she is into it.

Not many people know what a Spiderman is...

NSFW
http://i.imgur.com/hn3W4MA.gif

[Skep tickle]

Blogs are up at Richard Carrier's new abode. Comments have been preserved. It also appears that he has screwed up the links to his own blog, as they still point to freethoughtblogs.

richardcarrier.info

So far based on spot checking, I do not see any evidence of memory holing yet.

Apparently still in process of updating it. His calendar, which he links at his booking info page, has 5 days marked out for "Skepticon (?)" in November 2016...

[Really?]

Blogs are up at Richard Carrier's new abode. Comments have been preserved. It also appears that he has screwed up the links to his own blog, as they still point to freethoughtblogs.

richardcarrier.info

So far based on spot checking, I do not see any evidence of memory holing yet.

Apparently still in process of updating it. His calendar, which he links at his booking info page, has 5 days marked out for "Skepticon (?)" in November 2016...

Maybe he's hoping they'll see his evidence and will change their minds.

[jet_lagg]

Parody Accountant, I am disappoint...

You call that arachne hentai?

[CaptainFluffyBunny]

<snip>
d4m10n not infrequently comes across as a gadfly here, playing devil's advocate, pointing out what he sees as inconsistencies and even (gasp) hypocrisy here.

IMO that input is valuable, though usually unappreciated*.

*understatement alert

Seeing as that input often involves strawmanning or straight up lying about other people's positions, I'm not going to shed any tears over him not getting the appreciation he's due, but sure everyone has their 2 cents to add. That's why I'm dedicated to the idea of an open forum.

Anybody show me a single time Damion has ever shown a majority opinion of the pit was hypocritical, just once in all the time since I've joined the pit. Showing him being a major asshole is easy.

[Parody Accountant]

Jet lagg, I feel a challenge fap coming on.

This is going to be harder than jerking off to that deaf girl faking an orgasm video. Sounded like a barking seal, but making sexy faces.
The guy must have been deaf too.

[CaptainFluffyBunny]

Blogs are up at Richard Carrier's new abode. Comments have been preserved. It also appears that he has screwed up the links to his own blog, as they still point to freethoughtblogs.

richardcarrier.info

So far based on spot checking, I do not see any evidence of memory holing yet.

Apparently still in process of updating it. His calendar, which he links at his booking info page, has 5 days marked out for "Skepticon (?)" in November 2016...

Perhaps he is optimistic about his lawsuit. Or he plans on being in the vicinity without being part of the conference.

[CaptainFluffyBunny]

:nin: Argh,

[Guest_84d94f98]

Perhaps he is optimistic about his lawsuit. Or he plans on being in the vicinity without being part of the conference.

No lawyer is going to take his case on contingency. And if he plunders his retirement account like a student's panties, he can only come up with $10,000 which is just enough to have a lawyer send out a few ominous scary sounding letters.

Miri has better leverage. She lives in Columbus with him & belongs to their Sex Club. With all the allegations and different groups that have banned him for not taking no for an answer, she could get him banned from those groups in a heart beat.

The one thing those groups are adverse to is legal liability. That is why there is zero tolerance for drugs and alcohol, and they have monitors watching everyone's activities. If they know of a problem child ahead of time, they have to take action.

[Guest_84d94f98]

Apparently still in process of updating it. His calendar, which he links at richardcarrier.info/booking his booking info page[/url], has 5 days marked out for "Skepticon (?)" in November 2016...

What is "Milwaukee on the Town"?

google.com/search?q="milwaukee+on+the+town"

-Soylent f98

[jimhabegger]

d4m10n not infrequently comes across as a gadfly here, playing devil's advocate, pointing out what he sees as inconsistencies and even (gasp) hypocrisy here.

IMO that input is valuable, though usually unappreciated*.

*understatement alert

I like that way of looking at it. Thanks.

[ConcentratedH2O, OM]

And don't get on her case! She's busy with other things. From June 2016:
http://i.imgur.com/SvPAcjc.png

"Hey guys, how crazy is this?!?!?!?!?! Here I am with my six-pack of Rolling Rock!!!!! Let's go mentaaaaaaaallllllllll!!!!!!!!!!!!"

*quietly slips 6-pack of Rolling Rock behind the fridge and starts getting stuck into someone's Yellowtail Shiraz*

[jimhabegger]

I'm wondering if you think that Carrier is the only person who uses SSA and CQ activities as opportunities for sex with students. It seems very likely to me that there are many people doing that. Does that trouble you any, and if so, do you think SSA and CQ should be doing anything about it?

What troubles me most, Jim, is that the director of Camp Quest must have known, as she was screwing Carrier, as would her husband, the head of the SSA, who allowed Carrier to keep speaking at SSA events when they knew he pursued students. It is every bit as creepy as it sounds, and every bit as unprofessional.

Okay, thanks.

I'm still trying to work out what I think about all this, myself.

[jimhabegger]

Had there been more transparency, many of us would feel differently. Say SSA came out with a statement in May 2015: 'Carrier has been touching hair...we have prohibited him from speaking at or attending SSA events.' Done. Instead, they seem to have bribed an accuser with hush money and didn't even prevent the accused from hanging around the same convention as the victim. And didn't say anything as he kept talking at SSA events.

I'm still trying to work out what I think about all this, but one thing that's clear to me already is that transparency is a key issue for me. Whatever is happening at the activities sponsored and promoted by the organization and in its name, I would want it to be honest about it, and not try to pretend it isn't happening.

I don't see that happening in the next few generations. It might even be five or ten more generations, before there's enough of the kinds of love, and the kinds of training, that make civilization possible, to start turning all this around. The best I see that we can do in the meantime is try to help reduce and counteract the damage, and to help rebuild civilization from the ground up.

[fuzzy]

[youtube]2CpWiE86vXw[/youtube]

[fuzzy]

[youtube]KZiGA4teqC8[/youtube]

[fuzzy]

And don't get on her case! She's busy with other things. From June 2016:
http://i.imgur.com/SvPAcjc.png

"Hey guys, how crazy is this?!?!?!?!?! Here I am with my six-pack of Rolling Rock!!!!! Let's go mentaaaaaaaallllllllll!!!!!!!!!!!!"

*quietly slips 6-pack of Rolling Rock behind the fridge and starts getting stuck into someone's Yellowtail Shiraz*

Que Shiraz Shiraz

[youtube]azxoVRTwlN[/youtube]

[Guest_84d94f98]

Say what you want about the current situation with Richard Carrier and all of those allegations. But at least he is now finally getting recognized for his efforts.

[fuzzy]

[youtube]azxoVRTwlNg[/youtube]

[jimhabegger]

Anybody show me a single time Damion has ever shown a majority opinion of the pit was hypocritical, just once in all the time since I've joined the pit. Showing him being a major asshole is easy.

If Damion thinks that people here are being hypocritical sometimes, I can sympathize with that, because I've felt that way sometimes, myself. When I try to pin it down though, I keep getting confused. For example, it seems hypocritical to me to denounce witch hunts and participate in them at the same time, but I'm not sure anyone here really has done both at the same time. Both of those behaviors might be popular here, but I'm not even sure of that.

For transparency, I will say that some popular ways of thinking here do look hypocritical to me, but no more than what I've seen in every other Internet discussion, including Baha'i ones, and I'm not supposing that there's never any hypocrisy in any of my thinking.

[Brive1987]

It's not a witch hunt when we do it.

We are the good guys and the voices of reason.

[jimhabegger]

"She was just 17. You know what I mean."
[youtube]3UQk2YGQ7mQ[/youtube]

[fuzzy]

Something Something punch you in the face something then you're just as bad as he is.

[Brive1987]

D3mi0n wrote:

Assuming uniform sampling, that is. That assumption may be safe, or not. We've no idea about his personal preferences wrt age, but he does seem to prefer experience to inexperience.

So you're calling Amy Frank a slut now?

I thought I was clear that she was a grey.

[jimhabegger]

It's not a witch hunt when we do it.

We are the good guys and the voices of reason.

"No bad tactics. Only bad targets."

I've been tempted a few times to accuse people here of thinking that way, but so far the accusation has never held up under close examination.

[Brive1987]

Amanda's failure to clarify or repudiate her public (and unorthodox) relationship with a man banned from her husband's student participants makes her unfit for office.

She should be torn down.

[Brive1987]

It's not a witch hunt when we do it.

We are the good guys and the voices of reason.

"No bad tactics. Only bad targets."

I've been tempted a few times to accuse people here of thinking that way, but so far the accusation has never held up under close examination.

You are missing my meta.

It's not a witch hunt when you aggressively hold someone to their own standards.

It's a teaching moment.

[fuzzy]

It's not a witch hunt when you aggressively hold someone to their own standards.

It's a teaching moment.

Yes. If Carrier were to demonstrate some understanding that the treatment he is getting is very much like the treatment he has dealt to others, then it might be time to back off.

[Really?]

Amanda's failure to clarify or repudiate her public (and unorthodox) relationship with a man banned from her husband's student participants makes her unfit for office.

She should be torn down.

We don't know if he was actually banned or to what extent. He still worked the national convention and did the speaking engagements across the country. Mr. and Mrs. CampQueSSA knew everything. Carrier's further claim is that he was not banned from speaking for SSA at all. He was merely removed from the Speaker List, which somehow gave him full license to pursue sex with the student attendees.

[Kirbmarc]

Statements of fact:
* In the US, college undergrads are aged 18-21.

* Camp Quest counselors are aged 18 and up, but camp counselors are usually in their early 20's.

* Camp Quest campers are aged 8 - 17.

* Dicky has bragged about 'dating' college women he's met via his speaking engagements.

* Dicky has stated that in general, he is open to 'dating' girls as young as the legal age of consent, which is 16 in the state he now resides.

* Dicky only abstains from hitting on girls when he's "on the job ('OTJ')". Once he's done speaking, presenting, etc., and is in a social situation, he sees no ethical bars to him propositioning girls for sex.

All this still isn't enough to argue with certainty that he is (or was?) a danger to Campus Quest students. I get that this isn't what people here are doing, but there's a lot of nudging and winking about Carrier as a "ephebophilic sex maniac".

There are also some weird requests for "evidence that Carrier didn't have sex with/ask out 18-19 year olds". The burden of proof here lies with the people who think that he did. It's certainly possible that the college students which Carrier dated or approached were teenagers, but it's far from certain. The same thing is true for the allegation that he touched people inappropriately: Carrier hasn't admitted to it, but to other, less incriminating allegation. It is certainly possible that he's guilty, but he's innocent until proven guilty just like everyone else.

[Preponderance of evidence is a terrible standard in these cases]

All in all I think that Damion is actually in the right this time, and that some people here are too caught up in the schadenfreude at Carrier's hypocrisy being revealed and at his fall from grace to see that they're engaging in a public "witch hunt" which isn't too different from what FTB has done in the case of Shermer.

I can understand why in doubt an association which cares about its PR wants to cut ties from Carrier. Guilty or not he's been accused of acts which, if true, are highly inappropriate, and nobody wants to be seen as shielding a potential harasser.

I don't think that there is room to spread speculations about Carrier as a sexual predator, or about the SSA "buying off" his victim(s?).

[jimhabegger]

It's not a witch hunt when we do it.

We are the good guys and the voices of reason.

"No bad tactics. Only bad targets."

I've been tempted a few times to accuse people here of thinking that way, but so far the accusation has never held up under close examination.

You are missing my meta.

It's not a witch hunt when you aggressively hold someone to their own standards.

It's a teaching moment.

You were saying that seriously? :lol: Yes, I certainly did miss that.

[Brive1987]

Amanda's failure to clarify or repudiate her public (and unorthodox) relationship with a man banned from her husband's student participants makes her unfit for office.

She should be torn down.

We don't know if he was actually banned or to what extent. He still worked the national convention and did the speaking engagements across the country. Mr. and Mrs. CampQueSSA knew everything. Carrier's further claim is that he was not banned from speaking for SSA at all. He was merely removed from the Speaker List, which somehow gave him full license to pursue sex with the student attendees.

He is banned now. No excuses.

[Brive1987]

You were saying that seriously? :lol: Yes, I certainly did miss that.

No, my "it's alright ... " comment was pure meta. I assumed it would be read against the self evident context of a reverse witch hunt, making it pc.

[Kirbmarc]

It's not a witch hunt when you aggressively hold someone to their own standards.

It's a teaching moment.

If this was what everyone here was doing I'd agree with you.

But I think that some people are calling for the resignation of the SSA leaders for "protecting a harasser" and are suggesting that a potential victim of Carrier's was bought off. This goes beyond holding Carrier to his own standards, at least IMHO.

Of course I could be wrong.

[Brive1987]

Statements of fact:
* In the US, college undergrads are aged 18-21.

* Camp Quest counselors are aged 18 and up, but camp counselors are usually in their early 20's.

* Camp Quest campers are aged 8 - 17.

* Dicky has bragged about 'dating' college women he's met via his speaking engagements.

* Dicky has stated that in general, he is open to 'dating' girls as young as the legal age of consent, which is 16 in the state he now resides.

* Dicky only abstains from hitting on girls when he's "on the job ('OTJ')". Once he's done speaking, presenting, etc., and is in a social situation, he sees no ethical bars to him propositioning girls for sex.

All this still isn't enough to argue with certainty that he is (or was?) a danger to Campus Quest students. I get that this isn't what people here are doing, but there's a lot of nudging and winking about Carrier as a "ephebophilic sex maniac".

There are also some weird requests for "evidence that Carrier didn't have sex with/ask out 18-19 year olds". The burden of proof here lies with the people who think that he did. It's certainly possible that the college students which Carrier dated or approached were teenagers, but it's far from certain. The same thing is true for the allegation that he touched people inappropriately: Carrier hasn't admitted to it, but to other, less incriminating allegation. It is certainly possible that he's guilty, but he's innocent until proven guilty just like everyone else.

[Preponderance of evidence is a terrible standard in these cases]

All in all I think that Damion is actually in the right this time, and that some people here are too caught up in the schadenfreude at Carrier's hypocrisy being revealed and at his fall from grace to see that they're engaging in a public "witch hunt" which isn't too different from what FTB has done in the case of Shermer.

I can understand why in doubt an association which cares about its PR wants to cut ties from Carrier. Guilty or not he's been accused of acts which, if true, are highly inappropriate, and nobody wants to be seen as shielding a potential harasser.

I don't think that there is room to spread speculations about Carrier as a sexual predator, or about the SSA "buying off" his victim(s?).

Kirb. I've never said this before, but this post is full of shit. In the nicest possible, non mykeru way.

As you noted and then ignored, no one is saying Carrier hit CQ kids. People are saying it's likely the CQ ED intended to test the theory out, post realisation he was a harasser of youth by either SSA or SJ definitions.

[Brive1987]

It's not a witch hunt when you aggressively hold someone to their own standards.

It's a teaching moment.

If this was what everyone here was doing I'd agree with you.

But I think that some people are calling for the resignation of the SSA leaders for "protecting a harasser" and are suggesting that a potential victim of Carrier's was bought off. This goes beyond holding Carrier to his own standards, at least IMHO.

Of course I could be wrong.

The grant's timing requires explaination. Not good optics. Amanda should do the right thing and disavow Carrier as incompatible with her public role - now he has made his puddle public. If she doesn't - well that comes at a cost.

Plane now rolling down runway so flounce for a couple of hours.

[Kirbmarc]

Kirb. I've never said this before, but this post is full of shit. In the nicest possible, non mykeru way.

As you noted and then ignored, no one is saying Carrier hit CQ kids. People are saying it's likely the CQ ED intended to test the theory out, post realisation he was a harasser of youth by either SSA or SJ definitions.

I acknowledged that people aren't saying that Carrier hit on children, but there's a lot of insistence on the idea that Carrier hit on legal teens (when we don't know that for sure, all we know is that he "dated college students") to the point that people are "asking for evidence that he DIDN'T", and on the idea that the CQ leaders bought off a victim of Carrier's.