The Refuge of the Toads

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InfraRedBucket
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Re: The Refuge of the Toads

#47821

Post by InfraRedBucket »

They wouldn't even let him shovel shit near the Four Horsemen so he's since taken to throwing it.

Shatterface
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Re: The Refuge of the Toads

#47822

Post by Shatterface »

Hunt wrote:The reason PZ tried but never actually wrote a book is that he's not the book writing type. He's into immediate gratification and reaction, preferably controversial and outrage reaction. I would recommend calming meditation to look inwardly, but PZ debunks meditation as "spirituality", which he loathes. Harris was right about one thing, those who lambaste meditation are often the ones who could most benefit from it.
Myers needs a colouring book. Or a blow job.

feathers
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Re: The Refuge of the Toads

#47823

Post by feathers »

Can they do a Manuel nowadays without having SJWs picket the theatres?

InfraRedBucket
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Re: The Refuge of the Toads

#47824

Post by InfraRedBucket »

So Myers, what happened to the second book?

http://i.imgur.com/zRFCfu2.jpg


Can we suggest a title?

http://i.imgur.com/JHMyBVE.jpg

MarcusAu
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Re: The Refuge of the Toads

#47825

Post by MarcusAu »

Shatterface wrote:
Hunt wrote:The reason PZ tried but never actually wrote a book is that he's not the book writing type. He's into immediate gratification and reaction, preferably controversial and outrage reaction. I would recommend calming meditation to look inwardly, but PZ debunks meditation as "spirituality", which he loathes. Harris was right about one thing, those who lambaste meditation are often the ones who could most benefit from it.
Myers needs a colouring book. Or a blow job.
I'm not offering him either.

MarcusAu
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Re: The Refuge of the Toads

#47826

Post by MarcusAu »

Couch wrote:On a lighter note, I'm in intermission at Fawlty Tours on Stage at Roslyn Packer theatre in The Rocks. I was a bit nervous they'd balls it up, but it's great. Three episodes scripted into one two hour production. Same dialogue pretty much, maybe a couple of tweaks and new gags. Loving it! Back in now - rumour is the Germans are next!
There used to be places where they would offer Fawlty Towers (or Farty Owls, or whatever) as part of the night's entertainment when you booked dinner in a restaurant.

Basically you would be served by 'Manuel' and interact with Basil and Sybil.

Dinner theatre in it's purest form.

feathers
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Re: The Refuge of the Toads

#47827

Post by feathers »

Hunt wrote:The reason PZ tried but never actually wrote a book is that he's not the book writing type. He's into immediate gratification and reaction, preferably controversial and outrage reaction. I would recommend calming meditation to look inwardly, but PZ debunks meditation as "spirituality", which he loathes. Harris was right about one thing, those who lambaste meditation are often the ones who could most benefit from it.
Someone here- Strawkins perhaps?- once explained that PZ's ideas on selection in evolution are somewhat weird, or tenuous. I don't know if that played a role.

But most importantly, if you want to write something on evolution, creationism and/or atheism, you should have a topic that (a) hasn't been chewed over yet, and (b) is well-founded. By the time PZ wanted to write a Book, opportunity (a) had all but flown over, and for (b) he should have had an active career as a researcher or philosopher. I guess you see the problems here.

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Re: The Refuge of the Toads

#47828

Post by Phil_Giordana_FCD »

Maybe he can write The Ultimate Guide To Ruining Your Reputation For The Approval Of A Few Internet Sycophants?

At least the title would be honest, even if he left the pages blank. I'd buy that.

MarcusAu
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Re: The Refuge of the Toads

#47829

Post by MarcusAu »

for a dollar?

feathers
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Re: The Refuge of the Toads

#47830

Post by feathers »

A postmodern colouring book with blank pages, where you can colour random blots and then tell the viewers it "is a horse, and has always been a horse, because of its lived experience".

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Re: The Refuge of the Toads

#47831

Post by Phil_Giordana_FCD »

And maybe we could release our own Ultimate Slymepit Digest. It would have glorious moments (Avicenna, Carrier...), epic Pit battles (screwdriver, thumb-over-neck), drama (Caruther's flounce, Mykeru's flounce), sad moments (all our personal tragedies), very sad moments (John Greg)... all illustrated with colorful reproductions of masterpieces by Ape, Jan, Gumby...

Instant best-seller.

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Re: The Refuge of the Toads

#47832

Post by Phil_Giordana_FCD »

Mind you, Jan's piranhas deserve their very own edition.

Jan Steen
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Re: The Refuge of the Toads

#47833

Post by Jan Steen »

Phil_Giordana_FCD wrote:Mind you, Jan's piranhas deserve their very own edition.
You're too kind. But I really wonder how much of it will even be comprehensible a few years from now?

Brive1987
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Re: The Refuge of the Toads

#47834

Post by Brive1987 »

I am humbled one and all. Ta.

I also have Sir Latsot whispering sweet nothings in my ear.

http://i.imgur.com/jlOrpOT.jpg

Hunt
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Re: The Refuge of the Toads

#47835

Post by Hunt »

feathers wrote:
Hunt wrote:The reason PZ tried but never actually wrote a book is that he's not the book writing type. He's into immediate gratification and reaction, preferably controversial and outrage reaction. I would recommend calming meditation to look inwardly, but PZ debunks meditation as "spirituality", which he loathes. Harris was right about one thing, those who lambaste meditation are often the ones who could most benefit from it.
Someone here- Strawkins perhaps?- once explained that PZ's ideas on selection in evolution are somewhat weird, or tenuous. I don't know if that played a role.

But most importantly, if you want to write something on evolution, creationism and/or atheism, you should have a topic that (a) hasn't been chewed over yet, and (b) is well-founded. By the time PZ wanted to write a Book, opportunity (a) had all but flown over, and for (b) he should have had an active career as a researcher or philosopher. I guess you see the problems here.
Let me make it more explicit: Myers is an intellectual lightweight. He doesn't (often, see below) think for himself, which is why he's been taken in so completely by SJW ideology. He wants his ideas handed to him on a platter, preferable by those he considers young and hip and edgy and new, not old and corrupt and fallen. He hedges toward being intellectually conservative, which can be a good thing, but for him is more an indication that he doesn't want to think outside the box. At all. I don't think he's a dimwit. He can produce some good stuff. I think his description of why irreducible complexity is bunk was brilliant (if he didn't rip it off from someone else). But let's be charitable, he can produce original ideas, he just seems to find it a labor.

He is also extraordinarily intellectually lazy. He leans on his blog to give him impetus and to sooth his doubts and his ego. It's very strange that in his blog rules he seems to emphasize his blog ownership with an almost libertarian property rights absolutism, yet without the aid of his comments I think he would find no utility to his blog whatsoever. It's not the document of a liberal college professor, and it's entirely false. If anything, his blog is devoted to a loyal community that supports him, a "safe space" if you will. If it's his, it's his pablum that soothes him.

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Re: The Refuge of the Toads

#47836

Post by Jan Steen »

InfraRedBucket wrote:So Myers, what happened to the second book?

http://i.imgur.com/zRFCfu2.jpg

PZ Myers wrote:Yes — reach out and pharyngulate Amazon. Make my publisher happy, make my agent happy, make me rich, or at least moderately well off.
Hahaha. The fraud is here urging his sycophants to pre-order his book, which they don't know yet is just a collection of blog posts. Shameless.
I’ve also started working on a second one. I’m learning from my mistakes with the first one, though: I intend to have the whole thing more or les ready before submission so there’ll be less of a slow dribbling out and more of a whambang.
But he already had the whole thing ready before submission the first time. All he had to do was copy+paste a few dozen times. He is just bullshitting to mislead his flock into believing that he actually wrote something new.

Phil_Giordana_FCD
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Re: The Refuge of the Toads

#47837

Post by Phil_Giordana_FCD »

Brive1987 wrote:I am humbled one and all. Ta.

I also have Sir Latsot whispering sweet nothings in my ear.

http://i.imgur.com/jlOrpOT.jpg
Could you post a link so we can all come and play?

piginthecity
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Re: The Refuge of the Toads

#47838

Post by piginthecity »

Brive1987 wrote:I am humbled one and all. Ta.

I also have Sir Latsot whispering sweet nothings in my ear.

http://i.imgur.com/jlOrpOT.jpg
I am I the only one who can't help but imagine Dick Emery every time an SJW calls someone 'Awful' ?

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Re: The Refuge of the Toads

#47839

Post by Jan Steen »

Hunt wrote:He can produce some good stuff. I think his description of why irreducible complexity is bunk was brilliant (if he didn't rip it off from someone else).
Do you have a link for that? Several biologists have debunked irreducible complexity, and I seriously doubt if Myers came up with anything original. Remember that it has turned out that his main claim to fame, his Courtier's Reply argument, was first brought up by one of his commenters.

MarcusAu
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Re: The Refuge of the Toads

#47840

Post by MarcusAu »

piginthecity wrote:
I am I the only one who can't help but imagine Dick Emery every time an SJW calls someone 'Awful' ?
Well, Monday is a bank holiday - so this must be appropriate.

[youtube][/youtube]

Billie from Ockham
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Re: The Refuge of the Toads

#47841

Post by Billie from Ockham »

I had no idea that his book was officially linked to his job in this way. That, to me, is a rather big deal. It could even mean that the people of Minnesota have a claim on the book, if he has a typical contract and did not get a waiver.

Odds are, however, that the above is misleading at best. Odds are, he did not say that he'd be using his sabbatical to write a book on atheism.

Hunt
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Re: The Refuge of the Toads

#47842

Post by Hunt »

Jan Steen wrote:
Hunt wrote:He can produce some good stuff. I think his description of why irreducible complexity is bunk was brilliant (if he didn't rip it off from someone else).
Do you have a link for that? Several biologists have debunked irreducible complexity, and I seriously doubt if Myers came up with anything original. Remember that it has turned out that his main claim to fame, his Courtier's Reply argument, was first brought up by one of his commenters.
I think it was this one that I remember. It has the usual PZ snark, but the argument was very clear, simple and compelling (all reasons to think it might not have been original :))

http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/ ... ity-again/

Easy J
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Re: The Refuge of the Toads

#47843

Post by Easy J »

The Irish Wanker replied to my tweet but I lack the skills & silverware to reproduce it from my fancy computer phone.

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Re: The Refuge of the Toads

#47844

Post by Easy J »


jet_lagg
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Re: The Refuge of the Toads

#47845

Post by jet_lagg »

Kirbmarc wrote:
VickyCaramel wrote:<snip>
While the best strategy for combatting terrorism is to stick to your values and the rule of law, I can only see that if we do this Islam will overrun us. The only way I can see us dealing with this would be to react in a similar way to how the US reacted to communism. I don't want to see a re-run of McCarthyism, but it should be remembered that the reason socialism is still a dirty work in the US was the cold war propaganda which directed the nation's hated to anything remotely pink. We cannot rely on Islam having an reformation, we have to teach the west to hate Islam and to be completely intolerant of it. The trick is to be like America of the 1950s and not like Germany of the 1930s.
I agree that socially speaking more and more people need to wake up to the ugly side of Islam, and I think that the biggest obstacle to this process is political correctness and the notion that criticizing Islam and its defense of rape, pedophilia, misogyny, etc. is "racism".

I also don't think that we should rely on Islam having a reformation on their, we should fight against those who preach against modernity and promote those who don't. We should get them when they're young: close madrassas and secularize children through a thoroughly secular education. We should make this reformation happen.

I think that what we need to rely the most is to smash the Regressive Left to bits, which probably means, as a collateral, to destroy any chance of leftist parties in general to influence politics. I think that this is what's already happening, and more and more countries in Europe are drifting to the right. Soon enough leftist parties will implode like it's happening to the UK Labour, and they will be replaced by center-right to rightist parties. More and more people are getting sick of the Regressive Left.
I would add that in the U.S. this is further complicated by freedom of religion. It's long been noted the level of constitution worship Americans have, so the government being explicitly forbidden in the establishment clause from doing exactly what you're describing is a concept as foundational to American culture as you get (hence my surprise when Matt suggested the burkini ban as a method to defend said culture). Not that Americans, like all people, aren't hypocritical enough you could convince them to make an exception in the case of somebody else, but it sets a very troubling legal precedent (to say nothing of selling out your values).

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Re: The Refuge of the Toads

#47846

Post by jet_lagg »

And my condolences as well, Brive. I wish there was more to say.

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Re: The Refuge of the Toads

#47847

Post by Kirbmarc »

Phil_Giordana_FCD wrote:But in both those schools, you cannot have an interpretation that is too divergent or in contradiction with the literal reading of the quran. Again, it's the hadiths that make all the difference. It's right there in both articles you've posted.
Well, yes and no. Yes, the ahadith are relatively easier to reject or accept. No, it's not just the ahadith, it's the search of the "true meaning" of the Quran. The Wikipedia articles are actually written with a certain pro-Sunni, pro-Muslim revivalism bias.

The Quran is actually contradictory and vague in many places. There have been many different schools of exegesis about the "real meaning" of the Quran, each one of which was convinced that they found the "real meaning" and that all other schools where contradicted by the text itself.

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Re: The Refuge of the Toads

#47848

Post by InfraRedBucket »

Easy J wrote:
Thanks for the hat tip, Easy. ;)

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Re: The Refuge of the Toads

#47849

Post by VickyCaramel »

gurugeorge wrote:
VickyCaramel wrote: If Islam caused terrorism, we would have seen Islamic terror since Islam's inception.
But we did. Right from the get-go, when Muhammad started terrorising Meccan caravans once he'd established a foothold in Medina. The Meccans' reaction, which was to protect their caravans militarily, was then spun by Mohammed as aggression, and he was then able to persuade the Medina tribes to form a coalition against the Meccans.

Historically, Islam was a terror machine on a vast scale, the only thing that beat Islam in terms of the fear it instilled in surrounding cultures was the Mongols, who terrified even the Muslims.

The more I've been looking into the history of Islam, the more frightened I am. We have a false impression of what Islam-in-power looks like due to the fact that it was beaten back militarily by the West and other powers during the 19th century, partly as a result of weakening due to internal strife. But that was after centuries of continued, aggressive, imperialist expansion.

Did you know that almost the entirety of Afghanistan, Kashmir, India and Malaysia were Buddhist at one point? All that survived of the great Buddhist monasteries from that period were the texts that had already filtered through to translation in China, and the texts a few enterprising Tibetans had managed to squirrel away in Tibet. An entire religious culture, completely wiped out of its heartland. It's worth pondering that.
I don't disagree that Islam is aggressive. However, it is certainly worth comparing and contrasting what the Islamic world with what European states were doing at the same time. The Ambitions of Islam are hardly unique. Ever since I heard it, I have leaned towards a hypothesis which comes from evolutionary psychology that organized religion is actually a weapon of war -- for good people to do bad things requires religion, and I for one think is why we have lumbered with it since pre-history.

But speaking specifically of terrorism, one of the most successful terror campaigns of all time was carried out by the assassins in the 11th century. Muslims haven't forgotten this any more than we have, so in a way they have a blueprint built into their culture. Yet we don't really clearly get terrorism in the name of Islam until fairly recently. In Palestine, Lebanon, Algeria, Aden or elsewhere, there are political motivations which cannot be directly linked to Islam. Even with al Qaeda we see a change of strategy which is a reversal of the policies laid out by the secular PLO. To sum it up, it was decided that rather than keep any conflict localized to avoid the west getting involved, the west was already involved by propping up the regimes they were opposed to, so attack the western powers and make their involvement expensive, the premise being that they will do a cost benefit analysis and get the fuck out of Dodge (which has been partially successful).

Somehow since 2001, we have gone from that to a goal of world domination with no clear strategy of how they are going to get there except by causing random mayhem. Or so it seems.

I am beginning to think that this is a phenomenon much like when you get a wave of teenagers who all commit suicide after having visited certain websites that glorify it. Sure, Islam is a kind the horse shit which creates very fertile ground for this kind of insanity to grow in, certainly it has little which can be used to condemn murderous and suicidal fanaticism.
When you come to think about it, there isn't all that much in the bible to restrain Christian fanaticism, it is secular views which suppress it. I have noticed in these TV interviews that when challenged about the Koran's penalties for things like homosexuality and apostasy, they will say things like, "But only under Islamic law; we don't live under Islamic law and have to abide by the laws of this country". I have noticed this is a pattern, and i think it is significant.

I suspect that a great many muslims think along the lines of, "We are supposed to stone this person to death, but we can't, it's the law... and frankly I am quite glad about that because I don't have the stomach for it". Just because some high percentage of muslims 'believe' that apostates should be stoned, doesn't mean they actually want that. If there is a peaceful solution to our Islamic problem, I think this could be the key to it.

Unfortunately we have a new wave of migrants who have absolutely no respect for western laws and have no ethical objection to rape, theft and violence. Their culture is one that respects strength, they see us as weak and begging to be exploited.

VickyCaramel
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Re: The Refuge of the Toads

#47850

Post by VickyCaramel »

jet_lagg wrote:
I would add that in the U.S. this is further complicated by freedom of religion. It's long been noted the level of constitution worship Americans have, so the government being explicitly forbidden in the establishment clause from doing exactly what you're describing is a concept as foundational to American culture as you get (hence my surprise when Matt suggested the burkini ban as a method to defend said culture). Not that Americans, like all people, aren't hypocritical enough you could convince them to make an exception in the case of somebody else, but it sets a very troubling legal precedent (to say nothing of selling out your values).
Oh come on! You are an atheist, you should know that the constitution has plenty wiggle room for religious bigotry! ;)
Part of the reason that America is so religious and that atheism is so reviled is that atheism was associated with communism.

It is also a possibility that there is a loophole for political islam.

Billie from Ockham
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Re: The Refuge of the Toads

#47851

Post by Billie from Ockham »

VickyCaramel wrote:Oh come on! You are an atheist, you should know that the constitution has plenty wiggle room for religious bigotry! ;)
Yep. Especially when a publicly-traded company can suddenly become a religious entity (and therefore exempt from any law or regulation that goes against the teaching of the religion) simply because a majority of the stock is held by people who happen to follow a certain religion.

Have I mentioned how much I hate(d) a certain fat Catholic fuck?

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Re: The Refuge of the Toads

#47852

Post by Kirbmarc »

VickyCaramel wrote:Somehow since 2001, we have gone from that to a goal of world domination with no clear strategy of how they are going to get there except by causing random mayhem. Or so it seems.
It's all laid out in the teachings of the Salafi movement. There is a potential for innovation in Islam, albeit very limited and circumstantial (it mustn't explicitly contradict the Quran, although where the Quran is vague or silent there is room for interpretation).

The Salafi reject it all. They're all about world domination through outbreeding, killing, converting or enslaving non-Muslims, and getting rid of Muslims which have deviated even one bit from what is the purely literal meaning of the Quran. When the Quran is vague they assume the most intransigent interpretation, when it's contradictory they assume the strongest, less vague assertions.
When you come to think about it, there isn't all that much in the bible to restrain Christian fanaticism, it is secular views which suppress it. I have noticed in these TV interviews that when challenged about the Koran's penalties for things like homosexuality and apostasy, they will say things like, "But only under Islamic law; we don't live under Islamic law and have to abide by the laws of this country". I have noticed this is a pattern, and i think it is significant.

I suspect that a great many muslims think along the lines of, "We are supposed to stone this person to death, but we can't, it's the law... and frankly I am quite glad about that because I don't have the stomach for it". Just because some high percentage of muslims 'believe' that apostates should be stoned, doesn't mean they actually want that. If there is a peaceful solution to our Islamic problem, I think this could be the key to it.
The problem is all a matter of institutions. Muslims can theoretically behave if they're restrained by strong secular institutions (although we have to be careful, since part of what is said in the interviews is taqiyya, lies to the infidels). The problem is that we've shown weakness in our institutions. We've given them things like legally recognized Muslim councils or Sharia courts. We've recognized some "community leaders" as legitimate authorities. We have, in practice, established places where Muslims feel like they live under Islamic law and they no longer need to follow secular laws.

That was the biggest mistake of "multiculturalism", the idea that communities can self-regulate from within and live harmoniously side by side in a society with multiple legal and ethical systems. That never happens. Multi-ethnic and multi-confessional countries need strong institutions which are neutral towards ethnicities or confessions and solve the issues between the different communities, otherwise all you get are civil wars.

We've also freely allowed Salafi preachers to spread the idea that the entire world should be under Muslim rule. This is where Salafi are different from other schools, which tend more to separate Muslim lands from non-Muslim lands. The Salafi are an explicit project of world domination according to the literal world of God. Other Muslim groups are more about giving rules to Muslims and telling them not to mix with others.
Unfortunately we have a new wave of migrants who have absolutely no respect for western laws and have no ethical objection to rape, theft and violence. Their culture is one that respects strength, they see us as weak and begging to be exploited.
It's the Sunni Muslim men from age 20 to age 40 who are especially bad. They've been raised by largely Salafi preachers, since the missionary efforts of the Salafi have been enormous. They're not familiar with any other form of Islam or any other cultural movement in the Arab world, since they were born and educated under the decline and fall of Arab nationalism or of Arab socialism. They identify pretty much only with their religion, not with their nationality or political ideas.

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Re: The Refuge of the Toads

#47853

Post by Service Dog »

Heavy news, Brive. Hang in there.

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Re: The Refuge of the Toads

#47854

Post by fuzzy »

PZ Myers has always been a horseman because of his livid experience.

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Re: The Refuge of the Toads

#47855

Post by Service Dog »

Yesterday creative visionaries (with no technical ability to execute their ideas), and techies (with no power to veto designs which defy the physics of reality), and people-bossers, and office-politics connivers... all stood around a bathtub-sized fiberglass vessel, discussing how to attach a smoke-machine nozzle inside. In the artworld someone would describe the prob to me & expect a working solution tomorrow, trusting I'd do it on a shoestring budget/ not destroy the vessel/ my solution would look attractive, and it wouldnt be a safety hazard to partygoers who will pose inside & drink champagne. In the fashion world, Im supposed to not volunteer my opinion. Fair enough: too many cooks. But I was literally the only person in the room who knew πr² meant that the 10" smoke machine exhaust tube provided a 78.5 sq. inch passage for the smoke, so a metal grate with 66% open space & 33%metal would over-pressure the flow of smoke & made it condense into moisture, and we'd be better-off shooting the smoke thru >10 one-inch holes, with no metal grate, so the guests dont slip on condensed smoke-dew. Plus they're going to spill their drinks & slip anyway, and trip in the fog. It was hard to keep my mouth shut & watch them stop work for half a day to find their way to discovering these things, with many personality clashes. I look at the lifer union guys & they had automatically dulled their minds the instant the bosses arrived... tuned-out, to avoid involvement. I reminded myself that fashion is the B Ark. That we're keeping these people employed Away From designing criss-crossing airport runways, and hospital ER layouts.

Service Dog
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Re: The Refuge of the Toads

#47856

Post by Service Dog »

Yesterday creative visionaries (with no technical ability to execute their ideas), and techies (with no power to veto designs which defy the physics of reality), and people-bossers, and office-politics connivers... all stood around a bathtub-sized fiberglass vessel, discussing how to attach a smoke-machine nozzle inside. In the artworld someone would describe the prob to me & expect a working solution tomorrow, trusting I'd do it on a shoestring budget/ not destroy the vessel/ my solution would look attractive, and it wouldnt be a safety hazard to partygoers who will pose inside & drink champagne. In the fashion world, Im supposed to not volunteer my opinion. Fair enough: too many cooks. But I was literally the only person in the room who knew πr² meant that the 10" smoke machine exhaust tube provided a 78.5 sq. inch passage for the smoke, so a metal grate with 66% open space & 33%metal would over-pressure the flow of smoke & made it condense into moisture, and we'd be better-off shooting the smoke thru >10 one-inch holes, with no metal grate, so the guests dont slip on condensed smoke-dew. Plus they're going to spill their drinks & slip anyway, and trip in the fog. It was hard to keep my mouth shut & watch them stop work for half a day to find their way to discovering these things, with many personality clashes. I look at the lifer union guys & they had automatically dulled their minds the instant the bosses arrived... tuned-out, to avoid involvement. I reminded myself that fashion is the B Ark. That we're keeping these people employed Away From designing criss-crossing airport runways, and hospital ER layouts.

Service Dog
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Re: The Refuge of the Toads

#47857

Post by Service Dog »

Yesterday creative visionaries (with no technical ability to execute their ideas), and techies (with no power to veto designs which defy the physics of reality), and people-bossers, and office-politics connivers... all stood around a bathtub-sized fiberglass vessel, discussing how to attach a smoke-machine nozzle inside. In the artworld someone would describe the prob to me & expect a working solution tomorrow, trusting I'd do it on a shoestring budget/ not destroy the vessel/ my solution would look attractive, and it wouldnt be a safety hazard to partygoers who will pose inside & drink champagne. In the fashion world, Im supposed to not volunteer my opinion. Fair enough: too many cooks. But I was literally the only person in the room who knew πr² meant that the 10" smoke machine exhaust tube provided a 78.5 sq. inch passage for the smoke, so a metal grate with 66% open space & 33%metal would over-pressure the flow of smoke & made it condense into moisture, and we'd be better-off shooting the smoke thru >10 one-inch holes, with no metal grate, so the guests dont slip on condensed smoke-dew. Plus they're going to spill their drinks & slip anyway, and trip in the fog. It was hard to keep my mouth shut & watch them stop work for half a day to find their way to discovering these things, with many personality clashes. I look at the lifer union guys & they had automatically dulled their minds the instant the bosses arrived... tuned-out, to avoid involvement. I reminded myself that fashion is the B Ark. That we're keeping these people employed Away From designing criss-crossing airport runways, and hospital ER layouts.

Service Dog
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Re: The Refuge of the Toads

#47858

Post by Service Dog »

I mean, shit, Im a triple posting git. we're doomed.

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Re: The Refuge of the Toads

#47859

Post by paddybrown »

feathers wrote:Can they do a Manuel nowadays without having SJWs picket the theatres?
Or this bit, for that matter?

[youtube][/youtube]

(Sorry for you loss, Brive)

CommanderTuvok
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Re: The Refuge of the Toads

#47860

Post by CommanderTuvok »

Brive1987 wrote:I am humbled one and all. Ta.

I also have Sir Latsot whispering sweet nothings in my ear.

http://i.imgur.com/jlOrpOT.jpg
Don't you just love it when PZ Myers arse-lickers come out and make judgements as to whether other people are awful. A bit like when an Islamist lectures a humanist on morality.

BTW, chin up Brive. Sorry for your loss.

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Re: The Refuge of the Toads

#47861

Post by Shatterface »

I bet lostit is the kind of twat who also found Hitchens an exceptionally awful person, then got all gooey about human life when bin Laden got only one of the many deaths he deserved.

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Re: The Refuge of the Toads

#47862

Post by BarnOwl »

Very sorry to hear of your loss, Brive - my condolences to you and your family.

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Re: The Refuge of the Toads

#47863

Post by BarnOwl »

Billie from Ockham wrote:
I had no idea that his book was officially linked to his job in this way. That, to me, is a rather big deal. It could even mean that the people of Minnesota have a claim on the book, if he has a typical contract and did not get a waiver.

Odds are, however, that the above is misleading at best. Odds are, he did not say that he'd be using his sabbatical to write a book on atheism.
IIRC, he was supposed to be writing a book on science, not on atheism. A layperson's book on evo-devo, I think.

Many universities have eliminated sabbaticals altogether (mine has) - they're considered an abusive remnant of elite academic privilege.

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Re: The Refuge of the Toads

#47864

Post by DaveDodo007 »

feathers wrote:
Jan Steen wrote:
Really? wrote:I love how PZ and his publisher had the blog post book in 2011, when atheism was everywhere! Hitchens and the other Four Horsemen were selling shitloads of books! Pharyngula was on the rise and with no end in sight!

Then Rebecca decided not to take the stairs in an Irish hotel and he had to make a choice...
I think the defining moment was when his publisher rejected the original manuscript that Myers had been working on for years. This was going to be his God Delusion, the book that would make him famous. I'd love to see the publisher's letter declining Peezus' magnum opus. His publisher was probably also behind the idea to put together a collection of blog posts instead. That's how the Happy Atheist became the Bitter Asshole.
To freshen your memory:
http://archive.is/Qi1RM
He even took a sabbatical to work in it.
Can you imagine the book publisher having dollar signs in his eyes when PZ told him he was writing a book. He must have looked at the non fiction best selling list and seen, 'The God Delusion', 'End of Faith' and 'God is not Great.' Then he read PZ's opus and thought who is this fucking retard, that is the worse pile of crap I have ever read. :D

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Re: The Refuge of the Toads

#47865

Post by Spike13 »

Shatterface wrote:I bet lostit is the kind of twat who also found Hitchens an exceptionally awful person, then got all gooey about human life when bin Laden got only one of the many deaths he deserved.
I bet lostit is the type that cries after sex.

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Re: The Refuge of the Toads

#47866

Post by Kirbmarc »

Spike13 wrote:
Shatterface wrote:I bet lostit is the kind of twat who also found Hitchens an exceptionally awful person, then got all gooey about human life when bin Laden got only one of the many deaths he deserved.
I bet lostit is the type that cries after sex masturbation.
FTFY.

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Re: The Refuge of the Toads

#47867

Post by Really? »

BarnOwl wrote:
Billie from Ockham wrote:
I had no idea that his book was officially linked to his job in this way. That, to me, is a rather big deal. It could even mean that the people of Minnesota have a claim on the book, if he has a typical contract and did not get a waiver.

Odds are, however, that the above is misleading at best. Odds are, he did not say that he'd be using his sabbatical to write a book on atheism.
IIRC, he was supposed to be writing a book on science, not on atheism. A layperson's book on evo-devo, I think.

Many universities have eliminated sabbaticals altogether (mine has) - they're considered an abusive remnant of elite academic privilege.
They were pals at one point, PZ and Dawkins.

http://www.morris.umn.edu/webbin/RSS/images/2341.jpg

The people at Morris were very excited that one of their own was rubbing shoulders with a real scientist.

Golly, speaking of big-time science authors, everyone is excited for PZ's future bestseller!
Myers is also in the process of writing his own book about evolution and developmental biology, atheism and creationism, with the working title Natural Revelation.
http://www.morris.umn.edu/newsevents/vi ... temID=2341

That's 2007. The Alt-Right Atheist came out in 2013.

Other comment on the book. In 2006, Peez said this on The Panda's Thumb.

I am working on a book. I’m looking forward to the coming holiday break when I hope to make some substantial progress on it. My working title so far is “Natural Revelation”. The theme isn’t so much “gee, you religious people are psychotic” as “gee, you religious people are missing out on the most exciting stuff.”
Sounds like Dawkins' Greatest Show on Earth book!

http://pandasthumb.org/archives/2006/12 ... of-va.html

Scienceblogs visitor eckstam seems to think PZ was talking about his book too much.
Now, similarly and unfortunately, there are others out there like PZ (basically a loser and a slob with a fat, loud mouth like Rosie O’Donnell but with testosterone bathing his little testes) that are easily identifiable as agenda-driven with more time to add to his blog than shower from what I hear. Sure, he’s a scientist no one hear heard of a year or so ago and he uses shock-words for attention, as do others.

However, in style, PZ needs to get in the real world (he is a professor (not full) and of course, a democrat, one can’t be one without the other) and learn gentlemenly, academic discourse – he’s making a fool of himself and eroding any credibility and respect he once had, of what little of it there was to feverishly burnish to begin with for the attention he so wants. Did you know he’s coming out with a new book, Natural Revelation? In stores soon!

Instead of all the empty religious ranting, please, please thrill us, PZ, with YOUR research. Impress us. Change the world.

Are the octupi just not doing it for you?

Did you know he’s coming out with a new book, Natural Revelation?

Peculiar how he didn’t speak his mind until recently (tenure / NEW BOOK?); now, the cowardice has somehow lifted only to have him hiding behind his laptop and getting fat – tweaking insults along the way.

Calling him fat is not an insult, it is a scientific fact, no? Calling a spade a spade, as I see it.

Why then, PZ, are you offended? It is just a fact, right? Even if it were an opinion, I have every right to think you are a chubby wubby teddy bear.

Did you know he’s coming out with a new book, Natural Revelation?

And why are popular atheist bloggers & authors appear so angry?

Cause it sells.

Did you know he’s coming out with a new book, Natural Revelation?

And they’re making a bundle off of you.

It’s my Natural Revelation.

Think for yourself.

http://gooutside.org/

Did you know he’s coming out with a new book, Natural Revelation?
http://scienceblogs.com/islandofdoubt/2 ... ism-and-p/

Another person makes fun of PZ for chatting up a book that was on a Heina-esque release schedule.
Dawkins and PZ don’t care. They’re just rowdying the crowd of dummies to buy more of their books and visit their websites and making millions; I won’t buy PZ’s though when it comes out, which by the way is tentatively titled, Natural Revelation – due out in stores soon!; his science is unimpressive, his writing is not poetry but bad, boring poetry at that and his personality? – quite the prick.

Weaned too early.

– A 6.8 Agnostic
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2007 ... ut-please/

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Re: The Refuge of the Toads

#47868

Post by Spike13 »

Brive, my condolences on you and your wife's loss.

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Re: The Refuge of the Toads

#47869

Post by gurugeorge »

VickyCaramel wrote:
gurugeorge wrote:
VickyCaramel wrote: If Islam caused terrorism, we would have seen Islamic terror since Islam's inception.
But we did. Right from the get-go, when Muhammad started terrorising Meccan caravans once he'd established a foothold in Medina. The Meccans' reaction, which was to protect their caravans militarily, was then spun by Mohammed as aggression, and he was then able to persuade the Medina tribes to form a coalition against the Meccans.

Historically, Islam was a terror machine on a vast scale, the only thing that beat Islam in terms of the fear it instilled in surrounding cultures was the Mongols, who terrified even the Muslims.

The more I've been looking into the history of Islam, the more frightened I am. We have a false impression of what Islam-in-power looks like due to the fact that it was beaten back militarily by the West and other powers during the 19th century, partly as a result of weakening due to internal strife. But that was after centuries of continued, aggressive, imperialist expansion.

Did you know that almost the entirety of Afghanistan, Kashmir, India and Malaysia were Buddhist at one point? All that survived of the great Buddhist monasteries from that period were the texts that had already filtered through to translation in China, and the texts a few enterprising Tibetans had managed to squirrel away in Tibet. An entire religious culture, completely wiped out of its heartland. It's worth pondering that.
I don't disagree that Islam is aggressive. However, it is certainly worth comparing and contrasting what the Islamic world with what European states were doing at the same time. The Ambitions of Islam are hardly unique. Ever since I heard it, I have leaned towards a hypothesis which comes from evolutionary psychology that organized religion is actually a weapon of war -- for good people to do bad things requires religion, and I for one think is why we have lumbered with it since pre-history.

But speaking specifically of terrorism, one of the most successful terror campaigns of all time was carried out by the assassins in the 11th century. Muslims haven't forgotten this any more than we have, so in a way they have a blueprint built into their culture. Yet we don't really clearly get terrorism in the name of Islam until fairly recently. In Palestine, Lebanon, Algeria, Aden or elsewhere, there are political motivations which cannot be directly linked to Islam. Even with al Qaeda we see a change of strategy which is a reversal of the policies laid out by the secular PLO. To sum it up, it was decided that rather than keep any conflict localized to avoid the west getting involved, the west was already involved by propping up the regimes they were opposed to, so attack the western powers and make their involvement expensive, the premise being that they will do a cost benefit analysis and get the fuck out of Dodge (which has been partially successful).

Somehow since 2001, we have gone from that to a goal of world domination with no clear strategy of how they are going to get there except by causing random mayhem. Or so it seems.

I am beginning to think that this is a phenomenon much like when you get a wave of teenagers who all commit suicide after having visited certain websites that glorify it. Sure, Islam is a kind the horse shit which creates very fertile ground for this kind of insanity to grow in, certainly it has little which can be used to condemn murderous and suicidal fanaticism.
When you come to think about it, there isn't all that much in the bible to restrain Christian fanaticism, it is secular views which suppress it. I have noticed in these TV interviews that when challenged about the Koran's penalties for things like homosexuality and apostasy, they will say things like, "But only under Islamic law; we don't live under Islamic law and have to abide by the laws of this country". I have noticed this is a pattern, and i think it is significant.

I suspect that a great many muslims think along the lines of, "We are supposed to stone this person to death, but we can't, it's the law... and frankly I am quite glad about that because I don't have the stomach for it". Just because some high percentage of muslims 'believe' that apostates should be stoned, doesn't mean they actually want that. If there is a peaceful solution to our Islamic problem, I think this could be the key to it.

Unfortunately we have a new wave of migrants who have absolutely no respect for western laws and have no ethical objection to rape, theft and violence. Their culture is one that respects strength, they see us as weak and begging to be exploited.
I agree with a lot of what you're saying here, but I think the first step is to take some pride in our own culture (democratic, liberal capitalism), because unless we do, there won't be any secular culture to "moderate" Muslims in Western countries. We have to come to terms with the possibility that liberal culture and civilization could actually conceivably fall to a two-pronged attack, by SJW-ism from within, and Islam from without. That's not an immediate threat of course, but it seems to be where the ball is rolling - or rather how the frog seems to be boiling.

But in order to do that, to stand up for our own culture, we've got to stop the false moral equivalence tic. Not saying you're particularly guilty of it, I've got it myself to some degree too. One wants to "balance" things in one's mind by remembering that bad things are done by all sorts of people.

But I think we do have to come to terms with the fact that there's bad and badder, there's horrific, bad, ok, good, better and best in both cultures and religions, and while self-criticism is laudable, there's a grey area that you can step over into making the perfect the enemy of the good, which is I think part of the problem with SJW-ism.

And we also have to come to terms with the fact that pound-for-pound, there's no other religion that has quite the same toxic combination of features as Islam. For example, you can point to barbarism in the Bible, but Judaism isn't a preselytizing religion; you can point to the proselytizing nature of Christianity, but that's more often been by example and good works, than conversion by the sword.

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Re: The Refuge of the Toads

#47870

Post by CommanderTuvok »

DaveDodo007 wrote:Can you imagine the book publisher having dollar signs in his eyes when PZ told him he was writing a book. He must have looked at the non fiction best selling list and seen, 'The God Delusion', 'End of Faith' and 'God is not Great.' Then he read PZ's opus and thought who is this fucking retard, that is the worse pile of crap I have ever read. :D
...and that was after the publisher omitted PZ's account of sucking off an octopus.

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Re: The Refuge of the Toads

#47871

Post by ffs »

Brive1987 wrote:I am humbled one and all. Ta.

I also have Sir Latsot whispering sweet nothings in my ear.

http://i.imgur.com/jlOrpOT.jpg
to be fair latsot is friends an exceptionally huge number of awful people and should really know how to recognize them!

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Re: The Refuge of the Toads

#47872

Post by ffs »

Service Dog wrote:I mean, shit, Im a triple posting git. we're doomed.
just more of you to love

Billie from Ockham
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Re: The Refuge of the Toads

#47873

Post by Billie from Ockham »

BarnOwl wrote:Many universities have eliminated sabbaticals altogether (mine has) - they're considered an abusive remnant of elite academic privilege.
Mine changed the name and requires an application of which only about 80% are approved. They also check to see if you did what you said you were going to do. If you didn't, your teaching load will be increased if you don't pay the money back.

To be honest, I agree with the changes. They have to keep something back or the dead-wood have no reason at all to be useful. In effect, too many people were taking advantage of tenure. We brought this justifiable change upon ourselves.

Really?
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Re: The Refuge of the Toads

#47874

Post by Really? »

CommanderTuvok wrote:
DaveDodo007 wrote:Can you imagine the book publisher having dollar signs in his eyes when PZ told him he was writing a book. He must have looked at the non fiction best selling list and seen, 'The God Delusion', 'End of Faith' and 'God is not Great.' Then he read PZ's opus and thought who is this fucking retard, that is the worse pile of crap I have ever read. :D
...and that was after the publisher omitted PZ's account of sucking off an octopus.
I saw someone on the chans leaked the original draft of the book.

Natural Revelation
By PZ Myers

Chapter One


The octomermaid had seen the hirsute man on the shore before. He was always reading a book or thinking great thoughts. Maribecca liked people who thought big thoughts. Especially men. She had no use for the octomermen who spent all of their time preening and playing polo and tickling each others' excretion holes.

"Hey there!" Maribecca called to him.

"Who, me?" The man said, looking behind him to see who she could have been talking to.

"Yes, you," Maribecca adjusted her fashionable glasses as she treaded twenty feet from the man. "What's your name?"

"PX," he said. "Actually, that's short for Peter Xavier."

"Those are beautiful names," Maribecca said. "Would you like to go swimming with me?"

PX turned and frowned. How could she know this was something that weighed on his mind every day? He could never take off his shirt in front of anyone. Not in gym class. Not in the doctor's office. Not on his wedding night, when his now-dead wife reminded him that the marriage wasn't legal until they consummated it.

Maybe things would have been different if PX had made friends with the guys when he was young. But they never wanted to talk about science. They just wanted to play spo--

He felt a tentacle on his shoulder. "PX," came the voice from behind him. "You don't have to be afraid anymore."

PX felt several tentacles brush against his belly and back as Maribecca removed his shirts. "Turn around, PX."

"I don't want to," PX said. "I don't want to wake up from this dream."

Still more tentacles reached for PX's shoulders and spun him around. Another raised PX's chin until he had no choice but to look into Maribecca's eyes. He could see his reflection in the lenses of her classes. "It's not a dream," she said. "It's real."

PX felt the octomermaid slither onto him and into him until she was no longer standing in the sand. She was a part of him, in and around every part of him that mattered. No one had ever touched him like this in the three previous times he'd had sex.

"Bring us to the water," Maribecca begged. "You won't believe how good it will be."

PX waded into the ocean, feeling at one with the natural world. Maribecca had shown him how satisfying science can be and had opened his mind to the beauty of biodiversity.

Spike13
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Re: The Refuge of the Toads

#47875

Post by Spike13 »

Kirbmarc wrote:
Spike13 wrote:
Shatterface wrote:I bet lostit is the kind of twat who also found Hitchens an exceptionally awful person, then got all gooey about human life when bin Laden got only one of the many deaths he deserved.
I bet lostit is the type that cries after sex masturbation.
FTFY.
Lol! Much better!

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Re: The Refuge of the Toads

#47876

Post by Gumby »

LOL @ Really?'s PZ fantasy. :clap:

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Re: The Refuge of the Toads

#47877

Post by Spike13 »

Billie from Ockham wrote:
BarnOwl wrote:Many universities have eliminated sabbaticals altogether (mine has) - they're considered an abusive remnant of elite academic privilege.
Mine changed the name and requires an application of which only about 80% are approved. They also check to see if you did what you said you were going to do. If you didn't, your teaching load will be increased if you don't pay the money back.

To be honest, I agree with the changes. They have to keep something back or the dead-wood have no reason at all to be useful. In effect, too many people were taking advantage of tenure. We brought this justifiable change upon ourselves.
I read an interesting article about universities and how they have changed. The biggest being that instead of educators calling the shots MBA's began running the schools like a buisness.

i would be interested in your thoughts on the matter. ( of course, anyone else with an opinion or observation please jump in!)

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Re: The Refuge of the Toads

#47878

Post by MarcusAu »

In past the use of force, intimidation and the creditable threat of force against them - was one of the drivers for minority communities to assimilate into larger mainstream culture. Or if not assimilate then keep their heads down and not draw attention to themselves. (Though, I suppose it could also be argued that as with the Irish and Italians in America, integration only occurred once they started to become economically successful).

In the UK and in many European countries too - that this has flipped - and minority (ie muslim) communities are not under threat of violence (for the most part) but are forming ghettos where they do the intimidating and the violence. And I think they see the populations of these countries as weak for not pushing back against them.

So when people say we have to 'stand up to islam' or 'stand up for western values' - what exactly do they mean? Is the proper response to say Rotherham many more sternly worded letters to the editor? Or to use the police to crack down by force? (ie state sponsored violence). Or is an increased level of rape just one of the prices to pay so that enlightenment values are not compromised?

Is everyone here a pacifist? If not, under what circumstances would you support the use of force / threat of force to deal with these issues? And what type of force?

If the government are not willing to deal with rabble rousing salafist imams and criminal gangs (rape, drugs etc) then I'm not sure a peaceful solution is possible.

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Re: The Refuge of the Toads

#47879

Post by Jan Steen »

Hunt wrote:
Jan Steen wrote:
Hunt wrote:He can produce some good stuff. I think his description of why irreducible complexity is bunk was brilliant (if he didn't rip it off from someone else).
Do you have a link for that? Several biologists have debunked irreducible complexity, and I seriously doubt if Myers came up with anything original. Remember that it has turned out that his main claim to fame, his Courtier's Reply argument, was first brought up by one of his commenters.
I think it was this one that I remember. It has the usual PZ snark, but the argument was very clear, simple and compelling (all reasons to think it might not have been original :))

http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/ ... ity-again/
Thanks, Hunt. I have to disagree, however, in that I think PZ's argument is muddled and not at all compelling. To begin with, the first circuit (if you add the wire needed to complete the circuit!) already looks irreducibly complex. Playing devil's advocate, I would challenge Peezus to show how that circuit could have evolved.

There are numerous examples of more competent biologists debunking IC by taking actual biological systems that were claimed to be irreducibly complex, and showing how these could have evolved step-by-step. Peezus, on the other hand, didn't prove anything, except perhaps that he is incompetent.

Irreducible complexity (IC), although it has never been demonstrated to exist, is in itself not an illogical idea. If you believe, as Michael Behe and many other religionists do, that some or all life-forms did not arise through evolution, but by 'intelligent design', then you can imagine that it has structures or biochemical pathways that could not have evolved naturally. Peezus doesn't appear to understand this, and so he gives an example of a system that -- although it is not entirely clear how -- presumably did evolve naturally, and thus was not irreducibly complex in the first place. He doesn't refute IC at all with his circuit example. I will say that Behe's own definition of IC is flawed, but the basic idea is not as easily dismissed as Peezus believes.

The correct approach is to challenge people like Behe to give actual examples of IC and see them fail.

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Re: The Refuge of the Toads

#47880

Post by BarnOwl »

Billie from Ockham wrote:
Mine changed the name and requires an application of which only about 80% are approved. They also check to see if you did what you said you were going to do. If you didn't, your teaching load will be increased if you don't pay the money back.

To be honest, I agree with the changes. They have to keep something back or the dead-wood have no reason at all to be useful. In effect, too many people were taking advantage of tenure. We brought this justifiable change upon ourselves.
I agree with the changes as well, even though it means that I'll never have a sabbatical. The most ardent online feminists and social justice advocates I know are academicians who fervently believe in their privilege to enjoy prestigious sabbaticals and fellowships, which allow them to travel internationally and enjoy pleasant accommodations while doing so. In the majority of cases, their research is not what I would consider to be particularly useful, or at all applicable to real world problems for humans (though of course as a cancer researcher, I'm quite biased in that regard). If you took away the opportunities for travel to conferences and for research, these people would raise holy hell and scream oppression. Witness the pushback from academic scientists when someone suggests that conference travel is not very eco-friendly, and that we might instead consider virtual conferences. :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

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