The Refuge of the Toads

Old subthreads
katamari Damassi
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Re: The Refuge of the Toads

#53461

Post by katamari Damassi »

RE: Slymepit Trump supporters, I can sympathize with your desire to smash the system even at high cost. I felt the same way until Trump appointed the second worst governor in the 50 states to be his shadow president(Brownback is #1). Hell, I'd rather he chosen Florida's Rick Scott! That's how bad Pence is.

katamari Damassi
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Re: The Refuge of the Toads

#53462

Post by katamari Damassi »

johnself wrote:
paddybrown wrote:
Søren Lilholt wrote: Semen Playto
Crusty Sock-rates
Karl Cocker
Martin Thighdigger

katamari Damassi
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Re: The Refuge of the Toads

#53463

Post by katamari Damassi »

johnself wrote:
paddybrown wrote:
Søren Lilholt wrote: Semen Playto
Crusty Sock-rates
Karl Cocker
Martin Thighdigger

katamari Damassi
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Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2012 10:32 am

Re: The Refuge of the Toads

#53464

Post by katamari Damassi »

johnself wrote:
paddybrown wrote:
Søren Lilholt wrote: Semen Playto
Crusty Sock-rates
Karl Cocker
Martin Thighdigger

katamari Damassi
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Re: The Refuge of the Toads

#53465

Post by katamari Damassi »

I have no idea how that happened, I swear!
:?

gurugeorge
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Re: The Refuge of the Toads

#53466

Post by gurugeorge »

Easy J wrote:
Jan Steen wrote:Apart from that, there is the usual hilarious self-aggrandizement:
I am very fond of unification efforts in philosophy: I think they are generally on the right track, in every domain; as for example my unification of moral theory
:lol:

http://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/11244 (Warning: direct link. This isn't FTB anymore, after all.)
Friedrich Nietzsche (a real philosopher) said: " “I mistrust all systematizers and avoid them. The will to a system is a lack of integrity.”
I was with Nietzsche on that for such a long time, but I've recently come round more and more to the idea that systematization is a philosophical job and philosophers have got to do it, even at the risk of being wrong.

I don't know when the animus against system in the philosophical community kicked in, it certainly wasn't N.'s doing, he had no effect at the time. I think, as with much else in the intellectual sphere, the lack of self confidence among intellectuals in the West first really kicked in with WWI, and WWII was the final straw. Those events were so disastrous I think they really induced a crisis of confidence among intellectuals of all levels. That crisis of confidence was what led to, on the one hand, capable philosophers shying away from any attempt at system (the popularity of the concept of "piecemeal x"), and on the other hand, gave a hook for ideologies that trade on lack of self-confidence, hatred of oneself, hatred of one's country, one's people, one's traditions, etc.

johnself
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Re: The Refuge of the Toads

#53467

Post by johnself »

katamari Damassi wrote:I have no idea how that happened, I swear!
:?
Classic boner mistake!

Dave
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Re: The Refuge of the Toads

#53468

Post by Dave »

deLurch wrote:I don't know. The snopes article reads more like spin spinning spin. Statements in that snopes article are refuted by some of it's very own quotes. Snopes isn't what it used to be.
Havent read the Snopes article. Dont really care. The Working Group of Experts on People of African Descent (a four member body under the UN High Commissioner on Human Rights) issued a report to the UN Council on Human Rights, which included the recommendation. The Council on Human Rights, given its membership, is a bit of a joke in anycase. So far as I can determine, the Council has taken no action on said recommendation, much less the General Assembly, thus its a far cry from "The UN recommends."

This is a bit similar to recommendation in a report being read into the proceedings of the Committee on Foreign Relations being represented as an official action of Congress.

Hunt
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Re: The Refuge of the Toads

#53469

Post by Hunt »

katamari Damassi wrote:I have no idea how that happened, I swear!
:?
Only phhbb knows.

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Re: The Refuge of the Toads

#53470

Post by Hunt »

Hunt wrote:
katamari Damassi wrote:I have no idea how that happened, I swear!
:?
Only phhbb knows.
*phpbb

Damn you phpbb, damned you to HELL!!!

Dave
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Re: The Refuge of the Toads

#53471

Post by Dave »

BTW, according to this article, you cant actually run out of spoons:

http://nymag.com/scienceofus/2016/03/ps ... cienceofus

MarcusAu
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Re: The Refuge of the Toads

#53472

Post by MarcusAu »

Dave wrote:BTW, according to this article, you cant actually run out of spoons:

http://nymag.com/scienceofus/2016/03/ps ... cienceofus

Service Dog
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Re: The Refuge of the Toads

#53473

Post by Service Dog »

Oh, shit.

We forgot 9/22!

http://i.imgur.com/zFYd1A6.jpg

Billie from Ockham
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Re: The Refuge of the Toads

#53474

Post by Billie from Ockham »

Spike13 wrote:The UN just decided that the US should pay reparations for slavery.....still doesn't do anything about countries which still has slavery.....
I don't want to ruin your narrative, but ... http://www.snopes.com/un-demands-slavery-reparations/

Billie from Ockham
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Re: The Refuge of the Toads

#53475

Post by Billie from Ockham »

Lsuoma wrote:
Spike13 wrote:The UN just decided that the US should pay reparations for slavery.....still doesn't do anything about countries which still has slavery.....
http://www.snopes.com/un-demands-slavery-reparations/
Would it kill me to check the very next post before responding?

Billie from Ockham
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Re: The Refuge of the Toads

#53476

Post by Billie from Ockham »

deLurch wrote:I don't know. The snopes article reads more like spin spinning spin. Statements in that snopes article are refuted by some of it's very own quotes. Snopes isn't what it used to be.
UN working groups only make reports and suggestions. The core claim ... that the UN has ordered someone to do something ... is false, as this hasn't progressed beyond the working-group level. Might as well start screaming something about Anita Sarkeesian, Zoe Quinn, or Hermione if you're going to take this shit on reparations seriously.

MarcusAu
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Re: The Refuge of the Toads

#53477

Post by MarcusAu »


deLurch
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Re: The Refuge of the Toads

#53478

Post by deLurch »

screwtape wrote:
Phil_Giordana_FCD wrote:I just had sex with a married woman. It's kinda hot!
Worse still - her husband was in the room!
http://i.imgur.com/NpBIf9L.jpg

deLurch
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Re: The Refuge of the Toads

#53479

Post by deLurch »

katamari Damassi wrote:RE: Slymepit Trump supporters, I can sympathize with your desire to smash the system even at high cost. I felt the same way until Trump appointed the second worst governor in the 50 states to be his shadow president(Brownback is #1). Hell, I'd rather he chosen Florida's Rick Scott! That's how bad Pence is.
Assassination insurance.

Billie from Ockham
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Re: The Refuge of the Toads

#53480

Post by Billie from Ockham »

deLurch wrote:
katamari Damassi wrote:RE: Slymepit Trump supporters, I can sympathize with your desire to smash the system even at high cost. I felt the same way until Trump appointed the second worst governor in the 50 states to be his shadow president(Brownback is #1). Hell, I'd rather he chosen Florida's Rick Scott! That's how bad Pence is.
Assassination insurance.
In an odd twist of convergent thinking, that was the same reason that Clinton didn't choose Sanders.

CommanderTuvok
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Re: The Refuge of the Toads

#53481

Post by CommanderTuvok »

katamari Damassi wrote:RE: Slymepit Trump supporters, I can sympathize with your desire to smash the system even at high cost. I felt the same way until Trump appointed the second worst governor in the 50 states to be his shadow president(Brownback is #1). Hell, I'd rather he chosen Florida's Rick Scott! That's how bad Pence is.
I think the idea that Trump would smash the system is optimistic. He would sure upset a lot of SJWs, but I have a sneaky feeling he would just be more of the establishment line he pretends to rally against. Remember, the President has a whole team and system around him that is entrenched with the status quo. I am still not at all convinced he would actually build any sort of wall on the Southern border.

CommanderTuvok
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Re: The Refuge of the Toads

#53482

Post by CommanderTuvok »

Aren't those trillions of aid money poured down the drain "reparations"?

Spike13
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Re: The Refuge of the Toads

#53483

Post by Spike13 »

Sulman wrote:
Spike13 wrote:
He's been doing more Science and scam de-bunking lately. I think that's where he really does his best work.
Weird beef with SpaceX, though.
Yes, Elon Musk seems to be in his sights. Space X and hyper tube train thing.

The idea of a re useable rocket sounds neat, but I wonder how much of the rocket is truly re useable.

One would think that the extreme conditions the rocket goes through would cause wear or enough damage to make using it again unsafe. Also would the labor involved removing and testing all the various parts and pieces severely cut into any savings from just building a new one.

They must have the numbers and to them it makes sense, so I guess time will tell.

Spike13
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Re: The Refuge of the Toads

#53484

Post by Spike13 »

katamari Damassi wrote:
Tribble wrote:THunderf00t is now (and has been for a while) in the Top-5000 YouTube channels by subscriber count. He's growing at about 8K to 10K a month, too. And that's after YouTube did the purge of dead accounts. He's had 3.2 million views in the past 30-days.

Which makes the constant failure of Myers, et. al., even sweeter...
I'm waiting to see how Youtube Heroes will target him.
:popcorn:
Given the reception it's received, "hero's" might be stillborn.

I don't think I've ever seen a video receive so many negative reviews.

Spike13
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Re: The Refuge of the Toads

#53485

Post by Spike13 »

katamari Damassi wrote:RE: Slymepit Trump supporters, I can sympathize with your desire to smash the system even at high cost. I felt the same way until Trump appointed the second worst governor in the 50 states to be his shadow president(Brownback is #1). Hell, I'd rather he chosen Florida's Rick Scott! That's how bad Pence is.
Yeah, that got me scratching my head as well. I would have preferred he chose a moderate than a right wing bible thumper.

If Pence has undo influence in a Trump administration, he'll be bringing along like thinking buddies.

Not to mention Trump (as well as Hillary) is 70 years old. We may well see a President Pence.

Why isn't anything ever easy....

Spike13
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Re: The Refuge of the Toads

#53486

Post by Spike13 »

Dave wrote:
deLurch wrote:I don't know. The snopes article reads more like spin spinning spin. Statements in that snopes article are refuted by some of it's very own quotes. Snopes isn't what it used to be.
Havent read the Snopes article. Dont really care. The Working Group of Experts on People of African Descent (a four member body under the UN High Commissioner on Human Rights) issued a report to the UN Council on Human Rights, which included the recommendation. The Council on Human Rights, given its membership, is a bit of a joke in anycase. So far as I can determine, the Council has taken no action on said recommendation, much less the General Assembly, thus its a far cry from "The UN recommends."

This is a bit similar to recommendation in a report being read into the proceedings of the Committee on Foreign Relations being represented as an official action of Congress.
This is what happens when one is six beers deep watching "Designated Survivor"and your girlfriend reads you a Facebook post the you assume is a news article. Mea culpa, mea culpa maxima...

Spike13
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Re: The Refuge of the Toads

#53487

Post by Spike13 »

Billie from Ockham wrote:
Lsuoma wrote:
Spike13 wrote:The UN just decided that the US should pay reparations for slavery.....still doesn't do anything about countries which still has slavery.....
http://www.snopes.com/un-demands-slavery-reparations/
Would it kill me to check the very next post before responding?

That's ok, I neglected to check the story out to begin with. My bad.

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Re: The Refuge of the Toads

#53488

Post by Shatterface »

Spike13 wrote:
Sulman wrote:
Spike13 wrote:
He's been doing more Science and scam de-bunking lately. I think that's where he really does his best work.
Weird beef with SpaceX, though.
Yes, Elon Musk seems to be in his sights. Space X and hyper tube train thing.

The idea of a re useable rocket sounds neat, but I wonder how much of the rocket is truly re useable.

One would think that the extreme conditions the rocket goes through would cause wear or enough damage to make using it again unsafe. Also would the labor involved removing and testing all the various parts and pieces severely cut into any savings from just building a new one.

They must have the numbers and to them it makes sense, so I guess time will tell.
Maybe private space travel will be more practical when we can just print off another rocket?

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Re: The Refuge of the Toads

#53489

Post by Shatterface »

gurugeorge wrote:I was with Nietzsche on that for such a long time, but I've recently come round more and more to the idea that systematization is a philosophical job and philosophers have got to do it, even at the risk of being wrong.

I don't know when the animus against system in the philosophical community kicked in, it certainly wasn't N.'s doing, he had no effect at the time. I think, as with much else in the intellectual sphere, the lack of self confidence among intellectuals in the West first really kicked in with WWI, and WWII was the final straw. Those events were so disastrous I think they really induced a crisis of confidence among intellectuals of all levels. That crisis of confidence was what led to, on the one hand, capable philosophers shying away from any attempt at system (the popularity of the concept of "piecemeal x"), and on the other hand, gave a hook for ideologies that trade on lack of self-confidence, hatred of oneself, hatred of one's country, one's people, one's traditions, etc.
Philosophy without a system leads to Derrida.

On the other hand science is a philosophy built on systemisation.

Systems work: you just need a way to check them against reality.

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Re: The Refuge of the Toads

#53490

Post by Shatterface »

Phil_Giordana_FCD wrote:Jean-Paul Sartre.

(I so dislike philosophers I can't even manage a joke)
That's because contemplating Sartre leads to existential despair.

Tigzy
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Re: The Refuge of the Toads

#53491

Post by Tigzy »

MarcusAu wrote:Reparations have already been paid

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/ho ... 08358.html
I'm cool with reparations being paid put to redress the injustice of historical slavery. However, I don't think Europe will get that much money from islamic North Africa; those countries aren't exactly rolling in it.

Clarence
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Re: The Refuge of the Toads

#53492

Post by Clarence »

Steersman wrote: Don't see that that is a reasonable argument as the article laid out an abstract or an "executive summary", more or less, of a more detailed exposition following it:
Snopes wrote:CLAIM: The United Nations (UN) ruled that the United States must pay slavery reparations to black Americans.

MOSTLY FALSE

WHAT'S TRUE: In August 2016, the Working Group of Experts on People of African Descent submitted a report to the United Nations Council on Human Rights asserting that the United States should initiate reparatory justice with respect to the current and historical treatment of black Americans, and two of several suggestions made to the United Nations by the panel involved financial measures.

WHAT'S FALSE: The UN did not demand or order the U.S. to pay reparations, and the report (which was is non-binding and unlikely to be implemented) described reparations as a largely non-financial concept. ....
But while I don't know how much it has changed over the years, really only using it somewhat extensively in the last few months, it seems pretty credible, and the little cross-checking I've done generally confirms their judgements. An interesting snippet from the Wikipedia article on them and their accuracy:
Accuracy[edit]
Critics in 2016 have accused Snopes of having a liberal bias.[22][23] Jan Harold Brunvand, a folklorist who has written a number of books on urban legends and modern folklore, considered the site so comprehensive in 2004 as to obviate launching one of his own.[10] David Mikkelson, the creator of the site, has said that the site receives more complaints of liberal bias than conservative bias,[24] but insists that the same debunking standards are applied to all political urban legends. In 2012, FactCheck reviewed a sample of Snopes' responses to political rumors regarding George W. Bush, Sarah Palin, and Barack Obama, and found them to be free from bias in all cases. ...
On Snopes. I think you can make a compelling case that since they have a dedicated person who 'debunks' ALLEGED political urban legends that they are, indeed, biased. I'll still trust them on science stuff, but anything (even a crime) that has a political implication, not so much.

This guy makes a better case than I can, and he's been slowly lowering his opinion of Snopes over the past year or so: https://ethicsalarms.com/2016/07/31/bye ... to-me-now/

Sunder
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Re: The Refuge of the Toads

#53493

Post by Sunder »

Spike13 wrote:
Sulman wrote:
Spike13 wrote:
He's been doing more Science and scam de-bunking lately. I think that's where he really does his best work.
Weird beef with SpaceX, though.
Yes, Elon Musk seems to be in his sights. Space X and hyper tube train thing.

The idea of a re useable rocket sounds neat, but I wonder how much of the rocket is truly re useable.

One would think that the extreme conditions the rocket goes through would cause wear or enough damage to make using it again unsafe. Also would the labor involved removing and testing all the various parts and pieces severely cut into any savings from just building a new one.

They must have the numbers and to them it makes sense, so I guess time will tell.
I was never gung-ho about the privatization of space travel myself because there's too many aspects of it that seem unprofitable and thus highly unlikely to ever be developed if we completely cede NASA to SpaceX and similar entities.

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Re: The Refuge of the Toads

#53494

Post by Cunning Punt »

Malky wrote:
Cunning Punt wrote:
screwtape wrote: And here's an opportune moment to describe how it gets better. I bought her a camera, and it seems that after I drove for two hours to pick her up from her flight back from an international child psychiatry conference, then two hours back, she has discovered that she left the camera on the plane. Air Canada and the airport know nothing. The meal I cooked is ruined whilst she farts around on the phone.
Ultimately, this will all turn out to be my fault, and I shall say sorry. We shall sail on, with honour satisfied on both sides. The upshot will be that I shall buy no more cameras for her, and I shall, briefly, enjoy some degree of mild superiority for having been injured by her carelessness. Such is marriage. The sexes are not equal in the sense that they are not the same (and yes, I have long supported equality in every other regard), but no relationship is one of true equals; the beauty of a successful relationship is where both sides find good reasons to ignore the inequalities. I recall that le Duc de la Rochefoucauld opined that in every relationship there is one that loves, and one that consents to be loved. That may be applicable here, whatever it means. At worst, I may have to give her some wretched digital compact that has sat upon a shelf for a few years. Were it to mean giving away one of my many 35mm, medium or large format cameras there might be grounds for divorce. Read and believe, Phil, as eventually you will see it repeat itself as history is wont to do.

The essence is this: is it in my best interest to put up with this or any other shit? As long as I can say that, in the short, medium or long term, I can see a way that it is better for me to stick with it, I shall. It's rather horrifying to put it that way, as it sounds both calculating and mechanical, but I am no AI. Ultimately, and sadly, all successful relationships are based upon self-interest. Darwin was right, and we can simultaneously admire and hate him for telling us the truth.
I am curious as to how this is your fault? I know how you have to compromise in a relationship, and sometimes make herculean efforts to see it from the other person's side - I have done it myself... but I am wondering why in this case you had to apologize?
If you're marrird that is reason enough. The fact you are her partner means it has to be your fault if something ges wtong as it's your job to make sure it doesn't happen. Brive knows this as per his earlier comment his wife being late would be his fault. All married men know this :D
I've been married, and am currently in a relationship, so I know how it works, it just seems there is a point too far sometimes. If I had bought my girlfriend a camera and she left it on the plane I'd be the one who was pissed.

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Re: The Refuge of the Toads

#53495

Post by Clarence »

Phil_Giordana_FCD wrote:
screwtape wrote:
Phil_Giordana_FCD wrote:I just had sex with a married woman. It's kinda hot!
Worse still - her husband was in the room!
True, and even more hot!
Very belated congratulations , Phil.
My one piece of advice:
Don't spawn unless you want her to literally own your balls.
But - if you have a happy marriage, that won't matter.
So I'll wish you a happy marriage.

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Re: The Refuge of the Toads

#53496

Post by Clarence »

Sunder wrote:
Spike13 wrote: Yes, Elon Musk seems to be in his sights. Space X and hyper tube train thing.

The idea of a re useable rocket sounds neat, but I wonder how much of the rocket is truly re useable.

One would think that the extreme conditions the rocket goes through would cause wear or enough damage to make using it again unsafe. Also would the labor involved removing and testing all the various parts and pieces severely cut into any savings from just building a new one.

They must have the numbers and to them it makes sense, so I guess time will tell.
I was never gung-ho about the privatization of space travel myself because there's too many aspects of it that seem unprofitable and thus highly unlikely to ever be developed if we completely cede NASA to SpaceX and similar entities.
If you knew anything at all about the history of Space X or Elon Musk you wouldn't have that fear about 'lack of developmentment' of Space.
Arguably, it's only because of Elon Musk and Space X that anything IS happening in Space now, after 40 years of stagnation.

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Re: The Refuge of the Toads

#53497

Post by Cunning Punt »

Spike13 wrote:
CaptainFluffyBunny wrote:Geeze, my wife isn't like that at all. Owns up to her mistakes, doesn't blame me for things, and only says "your children" in a joking manner. On the other hand, she loves musicals. I guess everything is a trade-off.

I'll see your musicals and raise you endless loops of Twilight and The Vampire Diaries.
Yeah, well mine has an Imaginary Friend.

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Re: The Refuge of the Toads

#53498

Post by Sunder »

Billionaires with big dreams still have financial limitations that governments don't. And one day Elon Musk will be dead and his company in someone else's hands.

Anyone who doesn't understand the importance of public research is invited to read Carl Sagan's essay "Maxwell and the Nerds."

I'm not dissing SpaceX or saying they're not doing good work, but private sector science can never take over all the responsibilities of the public sector, and we're a foolish species if we let them.

Spike13
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Re: The Refuge of the Toads

#53499

Post by Spike13 »

Clarence wrote: If you knew anything at all about the history of Space X or Elon Musk you wouldn't have that fear about 'lack of developmentment' of Space.
Arguably, it's only because of Elon Musk and Space X that anything IS happening in Space now, after 40 years of stagnation.
Well... I wouldn't term it as 40 years of stagnation. We had the shuttle, ISS,various deep space probes,Hubble to mention a few things.

What we haven't had was the excitement of another grand mission. (Such as Mars or a lunar base perhaps even some kind of ship capable of solar system travel)

I don't know when or even if we'll make that next big step, till then I guess we'll have to satisfied with the amazing discoveries and achievements that seem to be coming every few months.

comhcinc
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Re: The Refuge of the Toads

#53500

Post by comhcinc »

Spike13 wrote:Today Springsteen tweeted that Trump was an asshole....

Takes one to know one.

This is from a guy who cancelled his show in N.Carolina because he didn't like the bathroom law.

In effect shitting in the mouths of his fans...( who because they are Springsteen fans probably didn't support it either) But they are Springsteen fans so I'm cool with that.
So this http://www.snopes.com/bruce-springsteen ... ium=social

You are being blinded by your politics.

MarcusAu
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Re: The Refuge of the Toads

#53501

Post by MarcusAu »

Tigzy wrote:
MarcusAu wrote:Reparations have already been paid

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/ho ... 08358.html
I'm cool with reparations being paid put to redress the injustice of historical slavery. However, I don't think Europe will get that much money from islamic North Africa; those countries aren't exactly rolling in it.

Reimbursing the (former) slave owners was a compromise made so that abolition could come about.

If the North American slave trade (which is the only one that seems to count) is a legitimate grievance that demands recompense - I don't see how other historical injustices can be simply overlooked - the Irish / Scottish / Australians / Just About Everyone against the English for example. And I don't see why the Russians or the French should get off easy either.

Before reparations can be considered - it the qualifying circumstances should be defined.

Ape+lust
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Re: The Refuge of the Toads

#53502

Post by Ape+lust »


Spike13
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Re: The Refuge of the Toads

#53503

Post by Spike13 »

comhcinc wrote:
Spike13 wrote:Today Springsteen tweeted that Trump was an asshole....

Takes one to know one.

This is from a guy who cancelled his show in N.Carolina because he didn't like the bathroom law.

In effect shitting in the mouths of his fans...( who because they are Springsteen fans probably didn't support it either) But they are Springsteen fans so I'm cool with that.
So this http://www.snopes.com/bruce-springsteen ... ium=social

You are being blinded by your politics.
Maybe, given that it seems everyone and their mother have taken to Trump demonizing, although I think it has more to do with not liking Bruce Springsteen.( granted as I've posted here before, from what I hear, he seems like a nice guy. Just not a fan of his music/politics. Having lived my whole life in Jersey, I've had that noise rammed into my ears for 35 years now.) it's an uncomfortable world when you know just about every word or note of a catalog of music that one can't stand.

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Re: The Refuge of the Toads

#53504

Post by MarcusAu »

MarcusAu wrote:
Tigzy wrote:
I'm cool with reparations being paid put to redress the injustice of historical slavery. However, I don't think Europe will get that much money from islamic North Africa; those countries aren't exactly rolling in it.

Reimbursing the (former) slave owners was a compromise made so that abolition could come about.

If the North American slave trade (which is the only one that seems to count) is a legitimate grievance that demands recompense - I don't see how other historical injustices can be simply overlooked - the Irish / Scottish / Australians / Just About Everyone against the English for example. And I don't see why the Russians or the French should get off easy either.

Before reparations can be considered - it the qualifying circumstances should be defined.
Then again - I'm just making the same point you are.

Clarence
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Re: The Refuge of the Toads

#53505

Post by Clarence »

Sunder wrote:Billionaires with big dreams still have financial limitations that governments don't. And one day Elon Musk will be dead and his company in someone else's hands.

Anyone who doesn't understand the importance of public research is invited to read Carl Sagan's essay "Maxwell and the Nerds."

I'm not dissing SpaceX or saying they're not doing good work, but private sector science can never take over all the responsibilities of the public sector, and we're a foolish species if we let them.
Governmment has made an absolute mess of public research when it comes to anything involving human exploration/exploitation/colonization of space.
NASA has been an utter failure when it comes to that sort of thing.
Which is why, arguably rocket technology was going backwards!
All those wonderful studies and ideas, but no one was building the hardware or training people to take advantage of it.
Why? Because NASA went to the moon only for national prestige. Since that time the agency has been little but a jobs program for Congress critters (who control its budget, which is a mere fraction of what it was in the Apollo era) and a political football for Presidents, few who have taken an interest in it, none who have spent significant political capital on it, and all who have had to usually fight Congress (often controlled by the opposition party, hence unwilling to let a President do a moonshot or something like that) in order to push their priorities for the agency. Hence why NASA has been schizophreniac for the past 40 years, esp when it comes to anything that involves human spaceflight.

The United States has a partly dysfunctional Space Agency that is vastly underfunded (I dare say NASA has done more for America and the world then the fucking Department of Education, and certainly more than the fucking trillions we've BORROWED to occupy the fucking world) for the missions its given, has no control over its direction, has muliple duplicate layers of bureaucracy that, until Space X came around were basically totally dependent on legacy corporate crony defense contractors, and constantly is under threat by fucking ignoramus lawyers in congress who threaten its budgets for climate research, the Space Station, (sometimes, but not always) planetary exploration (the probes) etc. It's currently (by Congressional direction) building a rocket (The SLS) that is not reusable at all, relies on old shuttle parts and engines (so eventually they will have to build entirely new engines and parts if they want to keep flying it), and is estimated to be five or ten times more expensive than anything Space X is flying. First "crewed" mission (flying around the moon, like we fucking did in the early Apollos) won't be till the mid 2020's on an OPTIMISTIC time frame. Mars is sometimes in the 2030's (Maybe, perhaps if the next President or the one after or the one after doesn't cancel it ) and relies on far more funding anyway as they don't have an actual crew transport system that can stay in space long enough to get them to Mars, so something has to be built and that's not in the budget....

Forgive me for being utterly unimpressed. Elon Musk has basically built an entire Space program from fucking scratch in 14 years, and at a fucking fraction of the cost it would take a NASA or any of the legacy contractors. He is the reason there is no some fucking price competition and is the reason that many people are finally daring to dream again.

Space program?
Yes. Space X is developing its own spacesuits.
It's own space ships.
It's own outer space infrastructure.
It's own engines. The fucking Raptor is probably the MOST ADVANCED ENGINE EVER MADE. Not the most powerful, but the most advanced.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raptor_%2 ... _engine%29
The Interplanetary transit system is something no President Hillary or Trump or any of the idiots in Congress would have came up with.
Open the solar system? What's in it for me?
Tsk.

To say that what Elon Musk has done is anything but impressive is delusional, and even with this latest blowup, the Falcon family of rockets is still within historical parameters for reliability.

I think Musk will get to Mars before NASA, the Europeans , or anyone else. To be fair to Europe they are at least nominally focusing on the moon (and I wish them luck, I wouldn't mind if fucking NASA focused on doing something useful on the moon, but POLITICS and MONEY) but I'd lay down a bet with my life on the line that he beats fucking NASA there.

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Re: The Refuge of the Toads

#53506

Post by johnself »

:clap: :clap: :clap:
I think the phrase "boner mistake" deserves further exploration. I am having difficulties figuring out if its like masturbating after you have cut chillies or more like unprotected sex at scepticon

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Re: The Refuge of the Toads

#53507

Post by Sunder »

Unless you're going full Libertarian on me, I think you seem to be imagining disagreements that aren't. NASA being fucked over by Washington is exactly the problem that I don't think handing over the future of space exploration to the private sector will fix. And hey, it's great while we have someone with a lot of money and a big vision now, but again, visionary leaders don't stick around forever. They die and new people take over.

And for the record, I think colonizing Mars is a huge mistake, and exactly the sort of rah-rah "big mission" crap that Spike mentioned above. Nevermind the issue of native life on Mars and how studying that is a task far better suited to sterile robots. We need boots on the ground to satisfy someone's pride.

Spike13
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Re: The Refuge of the Toads

#53508

Post by Spike13 »

For the funding needed for a major space project you not only need political will but a demand from the public.

There doesn't seem to be a lot of support for paying for it.

Given the costs of our recent military deployments, economic woes, it seems the publics sights are set a bit lower than the stars.

( don't get me wrong, I would love to see some awesome project on the drawing board. I just don't see it happening for the foreseeable future.)

free thoughtpolice
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Re: The Refuge of the Toads

#53509

Post by free thoughtpolice »

About a minute ago, as I sat her reading the pit at my desktop with my back turned to the open door about 5 feet away, I heard a noise and turned to see a deer right at the threshold that would have walked into the house had I not startled it by turning around.

Clarence
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Re: The Refuge of the Toads

#53510

Post by Clarence »

Spike13 wrote:
Clarence wrote: If you knew anything at all about the history of Space X or Elon Musk you wouldn't have that fear about 'lack of developmentment' of Space.
Arguably, it's only because of Elon Musk and Space X that anything IS happening in Space now, after 40 years of stagnation.
Well... I wouldn't term it as 40 years of stagnation. We had the shuttle, ISS,various deep space probes,Hubble to mention a few things.

What we haven't had was the excitement of another grand mission. (Such as Mars or a lunar base perhaps even some kind of ship capable of solar system travel)

I don't know when or even if we'll make that next big step, till then I guess we'll have to satisfied with the amazing discoveries and achievements that seem to be coming every few months.
You probably don't know much about the shuttle.
It was a deadly (about a one percent fatality rate) failure to do its main mission: lower the cost of access to Space.
Due to politics (they had to get the Armed forces on board or the program would be killed so for awhile the shuttle was also supposed to fly nearly ALL of the Defense satellites, but that means they had to redesign so it could fly cross country and hit polar orbits which made it heavier and hurt the ideals of cheap and reusable) and a cheap congress (which is why there was no abort system for the crew) the shuttle ended up being amazingly expensive to fly (the heat tiles had to be hand-replaced, a process that could take a month or two, the engines needed to be practically rebuilt to be reused, the large fuel tanks were not reused at all, new ones were built for each mission), unsafe to fly, (two total loss of crew in a little over a 100 total missions over a 30 year period), and flew far less often (even discounting the multiple years after each explosion that it didn't fly at all) then it was supposed to. It was so unreliable, the US Armed Services eventually went to the private sector and old Atlas/Delta stuff to launch their satellites.

It did have a neat arm, and was used for constructing the ISS (though a heavy lift vehicle wouldn't have needed as many flights) and the occasional neat thing like the Hubble repair, but that was about it. It ate up tons of the NASA yearly budget even when it didn't fly.

The Hubble?Well, I love the thing, and after the initial mirror repair, I could call it a success.

ISS? Partial failure. It went overbudget and was not fully built (originally there was a centrifuge for artificial gravity experiments, indeed, that was one of the big pitches FOR the station, but it was built but never launched. I forget why , but partly because of that we still don't know the effects of PARTIAL gravity like on Mars) and was placed in a low Earth orbit which has greatly decreased its useful life span and increased its costs yet again. But it's been good for international relations, and perhaps EVENTUALLY some of the research done there will lead to something.

The deep space probes? Largely a success but they take a long time to get to their various destinations in part because NASA has to do those missions on the cheap (and , until very recently, without a rather cheap launcher like Falcon being available) and hence uses underpowered rockets and relies on gravity assists which add years to a mission. In part because of neglect by the US government the probes themselves are often underpowered because there isn't enough RTG plutonium left for most missions (we are finally producing more after decades of neglect, but its iffy if they can produce it fast enough for the needs of probes in the next decade or two without more $ and resources) so many were forced to rely on primative batteries and solar power, neither of which allows many big scientific instruments (Solar tends to be almost useless beyond Jupiter).

Anyway, NONE of that has anything to do with making humans a multiplanetary species, mining, space manufacturing (the ISS has done a wee bit on this front) nor even human exploration, 'boots on the ground'.


And people mostly don't care about science for the sake of science. They want either excitement or resources (something for THEM) or both.
I'm a bit more space geeky than most and even I was bummed out by the billions of dollars and endless NASA probes to Mars that couldn't even tell us for sure if water was present or had been present, let alone look for life (reanalysis of the Viking results shows there might be something there after all).

Spike13
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Re: The Refuge of the Toads

#53511

Post by Spike13 »

Sunder wrote:Unless you're going full Libertarian on me, I think you seem to be imagining disagreements that aren't. NASA being fucked over by Washington is exactly the problem that I don't think handing over the future of space exploration to the private sector will fix. And hey, it's great while we have someone with a lot of money and a big vision now, but again, visionary leaders don't stick around forever. They die and new people take over.

And for the record, I think colonizing Mars is a huge mistake, and exactly the sort of rah-rah "big mission" crap that Spike mentioned above. Nevermind the issue of native life on Mars and how studying that is a task far better suited to sterile robots. We need boots on the ground to satisfy someone's pride.
If we're ever going to get anywhere, we need to go somewhere first. Frankly I'd rather see them build something that can cruise around a bit. It probably wouldn't go far, but could be a test bed for something better. Until we can reliably go from one place to another in a relatively timely fashion colonizing anything sounds a bit too risky. Yeah for the moment we will have to leave the actual exploring to robots and probes.

Clarence
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Re: The Refuge of the Toads

#53512

Post by Clarence »

Sunder wrote:Unless you're going full Libertarian on me, I think you seem to be imagining disagreements that aren't. NASA being fucked over by Washington is exactly the problem that I don't think handing over the future of space exploration to the private sector will fix. And hey, it's great while we have someone with a lot of money and a big vision now, but again, visionary leaders don't stick around forever. They die and new people take over.

And for the record, I think colonizing Mars is a huge mistake, and exactly the sort of rah-rah "big mission" crap that Spike mentioned above. Nevermind the issue of native life on Mars and how studying that is a task far better suited to sterile robots. We need boots on the ground to satisfy someone's pride.
It's going to be the private sector that finally opens up a Space Economy.
Government will probably help, esp the military, but no - the government will never open up the Solar System to the human race as a whole, at least not in our lifetimes.
Elon Musk MIGHT - esp if either his satellite internet gives him lots of $ or some other aspect of the Space Economy takes off.
As it is, I think there is little doubt that he and his company can build the prototype of this remarkably ambitious system.

I don't know about you, but if the man ever opened this up to a Kickstarter, I'd contribute. This is more important (yes, making humans multiplanetary is important) than 99.9 percent of the bullshit being done in Washington DC.

And don't forget Jeff Bezos, Blue Origin, and his Amazon tens of billions.
He's dreaming big too.

CaptainFluffyBunny
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Re: The Refuge of the Toads

#53513

Post by CaptainFluffyBunny »

Genuine lol.

CaptainFluffyBunny
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Re: The Refuge of the Toads

#53514

Post by CaptainFluffyBunny »

free thoughtpolice wrote:About a minute ago, as I sat her reading the pit at my desktop with my back turned to the open door about 5 feet away, I heard a noise and turned to see a deer right at the threshold that would have walked into the house had I not startled it by turning around.
Wanders into the kitchen, you gots yerself some easy eats. Venison.

Spike13
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Re: The Refuge of the Toads

#53515

Post by Spike13 »

Clarence,

Shuttle wise, I was amazed it worked at all. Going up, flying/gliding back, pretty neat.

The heat tiles and what not: it was the product of early seventies technology. In terms of space vehicles it was closer to experimental barn built motor carriages than say a model T.

I was surprised that they never modified the design as time went on (Mark 2, mark 3, ground up re design..etc)

Clarence
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Re: The Refuge of the Toads

#53516

Post by Clarence »

Spike13 wrote:Clarence,

Shuttle wise, I was amazed it worked at all. Going up, flying/gliding back, pretty neat.

The heat tiles and what not: it was the product of early seventies technology. In terms of space vehicles it was closer to experimental barn built motor carriages than say a model T.

I was surprised that they never modified the design as time went on (Mark 2, mark 3, ground up re design..etc)
Space X does 'iterative design'.
Which is why the latest Falcon 9 is far more powerful and can lift twice the stuff into orbit as the original version of the Falcon 9. This is due to tweaks here and there and also supercooling the fuel. In addition, it can also LAND which is something the original Falcon 9 lacked the legs, the telemetry, and the power to do.

However, WHEN you can only built one or two of something, when you have political masters, when you are not given carte-blanch to design something from scratch and lastly when you are flying crew you don't do iterative design at all. Too risky. Too many forms to fill out even if you could get the funding to change things.

Over the lifetime of the Shuttle program, one was built from scratch, the prototype was upgraded to be functional (these two due to the two explosions) the avionics and computer systems were upgraded, and a few other minor things were done, including the addition of a 'trap door' and parachute system to try and let the astronauts escape in at least some situations.

But any major changes? A new tile or heat shielding system? A new engine? An actual 'abort-escape' ability?
No, and that was pretty much because of the budgets and the limiations of the bureacracy. Ironically, while the Challenger report whined about the so-called 'loose' safety culture, it was that very safety culture that ensured that something that hadn't flown multiple times , preferrably on multiple systems wasn't going to be added to the shuttle program. I suppose an actual launch abort system could have been developed but the "NASA way" would have meant at least half a decade or more of testing before it could be installed.

Spike13
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Re: The Refuge of the Toads

#53517

Post by Spike13 »

free thoughtpolice wrote:About a minute ago, as I sat her reading the pit at my desktop with my back turned to the open door about 5 feet away, I heard a noise and turned to see a deer right at the threshold that would have walked into the house had I not startled it by turning around.
Teal deer looking for citations? ( you tube joke)

That is pretty incredible. We have deer in the green belt next to the turnpike that seem to have become acclimated to people. You can get within about 20 ft. Of them before they scamper off. They seem to be quite taken with the shrubs in the front of my work.

Tigzy
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Re: The Refuge of the Toads

#53518

Post by Tigzy »

HunnyBunny wrote:
AndrewV69 wrote:
Anyway, back on topic. I do not buy food sourced from China. It strikes me as a very bad idea.
It is an exceptionally bad idea. I live in China and I don't eat China-sourced food, or eat in restaurants . The West only hears about a tiny percentage of the food scandals that the greedy fuckers indulge in for the sake of making a few more yuan. Most of the stuff they have been caught doing will have you retching just from looking at the pictures. Thank god Marks and Spencer food shops arrived a couple of years ago.

I came here thinking the Chinese culture was interesting, now I think it is fucked up shit that is ethically repugnant. I try to avoid coming into contact with the locals because they are mostly cunts. Except the DHL guy who delivers my stuff from Amazon.
If you don't like it there, why not leave and go back to your own country?

I can definitely imagine some Chinese Steersman (imagine it - the Great Wall of Cantonese) cooking up a test to gauge how assimilated the roundeye folk are: consume a century egg starter & baked dog main without throwing up either before or during, or something.

free thoughtpolice
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Re: The Refuge of the Toads

#53519

Post by free thoughtpolice »

CaptainFluffyBunny wrote:
free thoughtpolice wrote:About a minute ago, as I sat her reading the pit at my desktop with my back turned to the open door about 5 feet away, I heard a noise and turned to see a deer right at the threshold that would have walked into the house had I not startled it by turning around.
Wanders into the kitchen, you gots yerself some easy eats. Venison.
It was less than a foot from the fridge/freezer. :drool:
A tiny doe yearling, not much larger than a fawn but no spots, so not much meat after the effort of dispatching, slaughtering, skinning, and butchering, but the thought did cross my mind.
On the other hand, a few years ago someone hit a nice buck in front of my house with a car and I was able to talk the cop into giving the deer to me instead of hauling it to the dump. Several months of super delicious venison!
Roadkill fit for a king. :animals-bear:

free thoughtpolice
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Re: The Refuge of the Toads

#53520

Post by free thoughtpolice »

Spike13 wrote:
free thoughtpolice wrote:About a minute ago, as I sat her reading the pit at my desktop with my back turned to the open door about 5 feet away, I heard a noise and turned to see a deer right at the threshold that would have walked into the house had I not startled it by turning around.
Teal deer looking for citations? ( you tube joke)

That is pretty incredible. We have deer in the green belt next to the turnpike that seem to have become acclimated to people. You can get within about 20 ft. Of them before they scamper off. They seem to be quite taken with the shrubs in the front of my work.
We have a lot of deer around here and they like hanging around green areas near towns and suburbs because the wild areas here (Vancouver Island) has the highest concentration of cougars and black bears anywhere in the world and the deer apparently feel safer around people.
A few people down the road took to feeding deer and some of them became tame enough to hand feed them. I shot this video in one dudes back yard just after he had fed them and they were heading over to the neighbors for dessert:


The neighbors and the man put a stop to the deer feeding because of nuisance factor (they were eating everybody's flower gardens), and a perceived safety factor because of their tameness and car collisions.

Locked