Give Me a Urinal or Give Me Death!

[Aneris]

Kirbmarc, and others. You said it already. It’s no big deal for you to invite a Neo Nazi to a stream as a legitimate opinion when it happens to agree on a single issue with yours.

There's the issue: it's not about "agreeing on a single issue" is "defending their right to free speech". This isn't a demonstration of political support, it's a defense of civil rights. This is what you refuse to acknowledge. This is why I've cited the case of Noam Chomsky, who did a similar thing in the Robert Faurisson case but apparently what Chomsky did doesn't bother you enough to call him someone who works for a neo-nazi agenda, because reasons.

Nobody is in doubt where Chomsky stands politically. It is very clear that he isn't interested in furthering the political cause of the Far Right. Sargon and the likes however are on YouTube fighting a self-proclaimed "Culture War" against "the Left". Sargon is Brexit and Anti-Europe, the german Far Right is too. Sargon dislikes the "mainstream media" (aka Lügenpresse) and it's a big point for him. Guess what, the Far Right agrees. Sargon jokes about an oppressed ethnicity. The Far Right pushes the point for real. Sargon likes Donald Trump. The Far Right does too. And so on and so on and so on. To make matters even more comical, your example of shitposting interacial porn was somehow a serious political message against the Far Right, whereas otherwise you deny this has any real meaning. More likely, the shitposting works as as Rorschach test. You can dismiss or take seriously whatever you want. However, inviting a Neo Nazi (and being largely sympathetic) wasn't shitposting.

You're finished here. You admitted yourself that you regard him as Right Wing. He's not a classical Right Wing, and let me guess how we could name this... can't put my finger on it, maybe something with "alternatively right wing" or something... how about we shorten this to "Alt Right"?

[MarcusAu]

"All-Trite" ?

Are we still talking about Sargon?

[some guy]

Kirbmarc, and others. You said it already. It’s no big deal for you to invite a Neo Nazi to a stream as a legitimate opinion when it happens to agree on a single issue with yours.

There's the issue: it's not about "agreeing on a single issue" is "defending their right to free speech". This isn't a demonstration of political support, it's a defense of civil rights. This is what you refuse to acknowledge. This is why I've cited the case of Noam Chomsky, who did a similar thing in the Robert Faurisson case but apparently what Chomsky did doesn't bother you enough to call him someone who works for a neo-nazi agenda, because reasons.

Nobody is in doubt where Chomsky stands politically. It is very clear that he isn't interested in furthering the political cause of the Far Right. Sargon and the likes however are on YouTube fighting a self-proclaimed "Culture War" against "the Left". Sargon is Brexit and Anti-Europe, the german Far Right is too. Sargon dislikes the "mainstream media" (aka Lügenpresse) and it's a big point for him. Guess what, the Far Right agrees. Sargon jokes about an oppressed ethnicity. The Far Right pushes the point for real. Sargon likes Donald Trump. The Far Right does too. And so on and so on and so on. To make matters even more comical, your example of shitposting interacial porn was somehow a serious political message against the Far Right, whereas otherwise you deny this has any real meaning. More likely, the shitposting works as as Rorschach test. You can dismiss or take seriously whatever you want. However, inviting a Neo Nazi (and being largely sympathetic) wasn't shitposting.

You're finished here. You admitted yourself that you regard him as Right Wing. He's not a classical Right Wing, and let me guess how we could name this... can't put my finger on it, maybe something with "alternatively right wing" or something... how about we shorten this to "Alt Right"?

Scott Alexander over at StarSlateCodex had post (with a follow-up) that I think is relevant to the Aneris vs Kirbmarc/ServiceDog squabble

His point (if I got it right) is that from a *tactical* standpoint, it is probably not a good idea to give exposure/platform to the truly odious in order make the point that you defend the right of free speech. It's an arguable position, but he thinks the downside is that it might lead some people to become less favorable towards free speech rights. While I think Aneris *is* taking an anti-free speech position (but doesn't see it that way), it may be that xir's motivation is due to a recognition of the potential downside to this tactic. (and one other downside is to generate sympathy to the person/cause whose right to speech is being defended).

http://slatestarcodex.com/2017/04/11/sa ... resources/

[Phil_Giordana_FCD]

What if the next opinion deemed "hate speech" by the German government is "there is no god"? After all, that's offensive to millions and could be construed as hate speech.

What then?

Aneris, will you still be in favor of silencing "hate speech"?

Down the rabbit-hole we go...

[MarcusAu]

I don't think you can get much more odious (at least symbolically), than allowing members of the American Nazi party to march in uniform through Skokie, Illinois in the 1970s when there was a sizable percentage of holocaust survivors still living there.

Other cases seem a bit petty when measured against that yardstick.

[Kirbmarc]

Nobody is in doubt where Chomsky stands politically. It is very clear that he isn't interested in furthering the political cause of the Far Right.

So only Nixon can go to China?

Sargon and the likes however are on YouTube fighting a self-proclaimed "Culture War" against "the Left". Sargon is Brexit and Anti-Europe, the german Far Right is too. Sargon dislikes the "mainstream media" (aka Lügenpresse) and it's a big point for him. Guess what, the Far Right agrees. Sargon jokes about an oppressed ethnicity. The Far Right pushes the point for real. Sargon likes Donald Trump. The Far Right does too. And so on and so on and so on. To make matters even more comical, your example of shitposting interacial porn was somehow a serious political message against the Far Right, whereas otherwise you deny this has any real meaning. More likely, the shitposting works as as Rorschach test. You can dismiss or take seriously whatever you want. However, inviting a Neo Nazi (and being largely sympathetic) wasn't shitposting.

Sargon doesn't support Geert Wilders. The Far Right does. Sargon supports anti-discrimination laws. The Far Right doesn't. Sargon deems race irrelevant. The Far Right is all about race. Sargon is pro-gay rights. The Far Right is heavily homophobic. Sargon is pro-deregulation of drugs. The Far Right is against the "degeneracy". Etc. etc.

The shitposting interracial porn was just to show how dumb it is to think Sargon is Far Right.

Also many in the Labour party are pro-Brexit and anti-Europe. Many left or center-left parties in Europe are anti-EU: the Italian Five Star Movement, the Greek Syriza, the Spanish Podemos. All of them are secretly nazis now?

You're finished here. You admitted yourself that you regard him as Right Wing. He's not a classical Right Wing, and let me guess how we could name this... can't put my finger on it, maybe something with "alternatively right wing" or something... how about we shorten this to "Alt Right"?

Or maybe right-wing libertarian? Or "Red Tory"? Etc. etc.

[Service Dog]

I set my form of consequentualism against the absolutism of Kirbmarc, Service Dog and others, and want to make clear that we are not on the same team. This of course means nothing at the end of the day, since we only argue on an obscure forum, but I want to me make this very clear.

I oddly had an argument (pleasant one) with a German over punishment for speech that revealed things you were contractually obliged not to share. He said if there was no harm it didn't matter; I'm for prosecuting if it was shared, no matter if there was harm or not.

con·se·quen·tial·ism
ˌkänsəˈkwen(t)SHəlizəm/
nounPHILOSOPHY
the doctrine that the morality of an action is to be judged solely by its consequences.

The first problem with using consequentialism to justify Prior Restraint & censorship of free speech, is that the consequences aren't allowed to occur...so the accuser is merely speculating what Might happen if the speech were allowed. Minority Report/Pre-crime. So the consequences of damaging the free-speech lifeblood of democracy-- immediately become a competing immoral consideration. Consequentialism itself sez the hatespeech-law cure is worse than the hatespeech disease.

The second problem with using consequentialism as your standard-- is you get Aneris refusing to confine herself to 'using-morality to determine the boundaries'-- instead, she mistakes that for 'I'm empowered to police morality' with unlimited zealotry.

As for absolutism-- rayshul is right to oppose selective enforcement. But a 'free speech absolutist' need-only show it's a better imperfect solution than consequentialism. Absolutism need not prove it has no downside at-all.

Aneris is far too stupid to address my points with cogent counter-arguments, and will continue to obfuscate, namecall, state unfounded opinions as fact, induce stupor in readers, repeat buzzwords (motte!bailey!dogwhistle!nazi!).

[John D]

I don't think you can get much more odious (at least symbolically), than allowing members of the American Nazi party to march in uniform through Skokie, Illinois in the 1970s when there was a sizable percentage of holocaust survivors still living there.

Other cases seem a bit petty when measured against that yardstick.

And the value of letting this happen was that everyone saw a bunch of silly children dressed funny and saying stupid shit. America let the Nazis just talk and march themselves to death. There have been some "skin heads" since then. Hell, I even met a guy who called himself a Nazi in the 1980s at a party. 99% of us didn't take them seriously so they lost their appeal and they didn't even seem edgy or cool.

[shoutinghorse]

]

Nobody is in doubt where Chomsky stands politically. It is very clear that he isn't interested in furthering the political cause of the Far Right. Sargon and the likes however are on YouTube fighting a self-proclaimed "Culture War" against "the Left". Sargon is Brexit and Anti-Europe, the german Far Right is too. Sargon dislikes the "mainstream media" (aka Lügenpresse) and it's a big point for him. Guess what, the Far Right agrees. Sargon jokes about an oppressed ethnicity. The Far Right pushes the point for real. Sargon likes Donald Trump. The Far Right does too. And so on and so on and so on. To make matters even more comical, your example of shitposting interacial porn was somehow a serious political message against the Far Right, whereas otherwise you deny this has any real meaning. More likely, the shitposting works as as Rorschach test. You can dismiss or take seriously whatever you want. However, inviting a Neo Nazi (and being largely sympathetic) wasn't shitposting.

You're finished here. You admitted yourself that you regard him as Right Wing. He's not a classical Right Wing, and let me guess how we could name this... can't put my finger on it, maybe something with "alternatively right wing" or something... how about we shorten this to "Alt Right"?

The fact that you are implying Brexiteers are 'anti Europe' and 'far right' proves to me that you are just a pillock, maybe this forum isn't the place for you and you should consider joining Pee Zee and his chums.

Not wanting Britain to remain in the ever increasingly bureaucratic, plutocratic and undemocratic EU does not mean we're anti-Europe or even anti- Europeans and it most certainly doesn't mean we're 'Far Right'

[d4m10n]

They actually ended up marching in Chicago, but at least the ACLU made it clear where they stand on whether Nazis should be allowed to just walk around without getting punched in the head. There was even a bit of Supreme Court action, IIRC.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

[d4m10n]

Ah yeah, here it is: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationa ... _of_Skokie


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

[Shatterface]

]

Nobody is in doubt where Chomsky stands politically. It is very clear that he isn't interested in furthering the political cause of the Far Right. Sargon and the likes however are on YouTube fighting a self-proclaimed "Culture War" against "the Left". Sargon is Brexit and Anti-Europe, the german Far Right is too. Sargon dislikes the "mainstream media" (aka Lügenpresse) and it's a big point for him. Guess what, the Far Right agrees. Sargon jokes about an oppressed ethnicity. The Far Right pushes the point for real. Sargon likes Donald Trump. The Far Right does too. And so on and so on and so on. To make matters even more comical, your example of shitposting interacial porn was somehow a serious political message against the Far Right, whereas otherwise you deny this has any real meaning. More likely, the shitposting works as as Rorschach test. You can dismiss or take seriously whatever you want. However, inviting a Neo Nazi (and being largely sympathetic) wasn't shitposting.

You're finished here. You admitted yourself that you regard him as Right Wing. He's not a classical Right Wing, and let me guess how we could name this... can't put my finger on it, maybe something with "alternatively right wing" or something... how about we shorten this to "Alt Right"?

The fact that you are implying Brexiteers are 'anti Europe' and 'far right' proves to me that you are just a pillock, maybe this forum isn't the place for you and you should consider joining Pee Zee and his chums.

Not wanting Britain to remain in the ever increasingly bureaucratic, plutocratic and undemocratic EU does not mean we're anti-Europe or even anti- Europeans and it most certainly doesn't mean we're 'Far Right'

I was pro-Remain but Britain had a strong left-wing tradition of opposition to the EU running from Old Labour stalwarts like Tony Benn to the Communist Party and the Communist Party of Britaim Marxist-Leninist (Splitters).

http://www.communist-party.org.uk/brita ... plots.html

https://www.cpbml.org.uk/leave

[MarcusAu]

And the value of letting this happen was that everyone saw a bunch of silly children dressed funny and saying stupid shit. America let the Nazis just talk and march themselves to death. There have been some "skin heads" since then. Hell, I even met a guy who called himself a Nazi in the 1980s at a party. 99% of us didn't take them seriously so they lost their appeal and they didn't even seem edgy or cool.

It would be interesting to ask PZ, or any other old school leftist / liberal - ie If they (still) think that that ACLU made the correct decision.

[Shatterface]

My response to the consequentialist position on free speech is to ask 'Can you give me an example of censorship in the past that doesn't look ridiculous in retrospect?'

We are constantly bombarded with horror stories about what might happen if people are allowed to speak and yet the world keeps on turning.

[Aneris]

The fact that you are implying Brexiteers are 'anti Europe' and 'far right' proves to me that you are just a pillock, maybe this forum isn't the place for you and you should consider joining Pee Zee and his chums.

Not wanting Britain to remain in the ever increasingly bureaucratic, plutocratic and undemocratic EU does not mean we're anti-Europe or even anti- Europeans and it most certainly doesn't mean we're 'Far Right'

If a Brexiter invites a Neo Nazi to their show to testify against the "increasingly bureaucratic, plutocratic and undemocratic EU" then yes, this Brexiter will be viewed by me as laying the pipes for Far Right views into the mainstream (this is what the YouTubers factually did). Go on, promote a Neo Nazi to speak for you against the EU and see how successful this is going to be. Go on promote Alex Jones, because he also thinks the mainstream media is lying. Maybe cite Creationists who also complain about academic freedom.

[Sulman]

Floods once a month am i rite

[pro-boxing-fan]

If a Brexiter invites a Neo Nazi to their show to testify against the "increasingly bureaucratic, plutocratic and undemocratic EU" then yes, this Brexiter will be viewed by me as laying the pipes for Far Right views into the mainstream (this is what the YouTubers factually did). Go on, promote a Neo Nazi to speak for you against the EU and see how successful this is going to be. Go on promote Alex Jones, because he also thinks the mainstream media is lying. Maybe cite Creationists who also complain about academic freedom.

One is not like the other. (bold and huge font mine)

http://i3.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/fac ... Sides!.jpg

[InfraRedBucket]

Floods once a month am i rite

Is there a back entrance?

[Shatterface]

Vagina Museum?

So that's what Ophie is up to these days.

[screwtape]

Aneris is far too stupid to address my points with cogent counter-arguments, and will continue to obfuscate, namecall, state unfounded opinions as fact, induce stupor in readers, repeat buzzwords (motte!bailey!dogwhistle!nazi!).

I'm not taking a side in your rather prolonged debate, but I ought to point out that 'stupid' is not a word that seems to apply to Aneris.

[Shatterface]

#DustyExhibits

[shoutinghorse]

The fact that you are implying Brexiteers are 'anti Europe' and 'far right' proves to me that you are just a pillock, maybe this forum isn't the place for you and you should consider joining Pee Zee and his chums.

Not wanting Britain to remain in the ever increasingly bureaucratic, plutocratic and undemocratic EU does not mean we're anti-Europe or even anti- Europeans and it most certainly doesn't mean we're 'Far Right'

If a Brexiter invites a Neo Nazi to their show to testify against the "increasingly bureaucratic, plutocratic and undemocratic EU" then yes, this Brexiter will be viewed by me as laying the pipes for Far Right views into the mainstream (this is what the YouTubers factually did). Go on, promote a Neo Nazi to speak for you against the EU and see how successful this is going to be. Go on promote Alex Jones, because he also thinks the mainstream media is lying. Maybe cite Creationists who also complain about academic freedom.

If I ask a policeman directions to the nearest pub does that make me a copper or him an alcoholic? :doh:

[Kirbmarc]

If a Brexiter invites a Neo Nazi to their show to testify against the "increasingly bureaucratic, plutocratic and undemocratic EU" then yes, this Brexiter will be viewed by me as laying the pipes for Far Right views into the mainstream (this is what the YouTubers factually did). Go on, promote a Neo Nazi to speak for you against the EU and see how successful this is going to be. Go on promote Alex Jones, because he also thinks the mainstream media is lying. Maybe cite Creationists who also complain about academic freedom.

Except that's NOT what happened. Sargon&Co didn't invite the Reichsburger/neo-nazi to testify against the EU. They invited him to show how there's a precedent for sending the police after shitposters, because the naked nazi woman meme was shitposting, harmless speech. The neo-nazi didn't threaten people, didn't express hate, didn't even criticize anything, only posted a dumb, bigoted meme. Kind of overkill to send the police to his home, and a dangerous precedent for any liberal democratic government to set.

Also Sargon&Co never "promoted" Alex Jones, only joked about how a stopped clock was right for once, and how Jones trolled the Young Turks.

Now, does this mean that Sargon is above criticism? Of course not. He has his double standards (PizzaGate has no evidence but isn't incredibly implausible while Pee-Pee Trump is ridiculous from the get go), he has his biases, he's chosen to focus on the left rather than on right while saying he wants the left to reform but in practice is on right side of the aisle, he's a bit too prone to interpret things like the Pewdiepie- Wall Street Journal brouhaha as politically motivated clickbait when it's actually only clickbait inside a common zeigeist of finding nazis everywhere.

This doesn't mean he's a nazi, or "laying the pipes" for nazism. He has his own conservative/libertarian ideas, which include a focus on national interests rather than international organizations, control of immigration and promotion of integration rather than open borders and multiculturalism and a cultural war against left-wing biases in academia and elsewhere, all while allying himself with the UK tories because they give him what he wants, sidelining and justifying the flaws of Tories as long as the Corbyn-led Labour is kept out of office. If anything he's "laying the pipes" for the Conservative Party and Theresa May.

[MarcusAu]

Just a point about libertarians - they tend to be for open borders and against foreign intervention from what I can tell. And historically at least they have chosen to align with the conservatives. Even though there is a libertian party - there are still republicans with libertarian leanings.

That's in the US context - I'm not sure that the concept really makes sense in the UK and the rest of the world.

[Basement]

The fact that you are implying Brexiteers are 'anti Europe' and 'far right' proves to me that you are just a pillock, maybe this forum isn't the place for you and you should consider joining Pee Zee and his chums.

Not wanting Britain to remain in the ever increasingly bureaucratic, plutocratic and undemocratic EU does not mean we're anti-Europe or even anti- Europeans and it most certainly doesn't mean we're 'Far Right'

If a Brexiter invites a Neo Nazi to their show to testify against the "increasingly bureaucratic, plutocratic and undemocratic EU" then yes, this Brexiter will be viewed by me as laying the pipes for Far Right views into the mainstream (this is what the YouTubers factually did). Go on, promote a Neo Nazi to speak for you against the EU and see how successful this is going to be. Go on promote Alex Jones, because he also thinks the mainstream media is lying. Maybe cite Creationists who also complain about academic freedom.

As an atheist libertarian I've made political common cause with some real kook (and I mean REAL kook) religious libertarians. Even though our views on religion are completely opposite, our similar views on the role government should play put us in the same camp. Their fears are different than mine and absolutely I would promote them to communicate to those who share their religious views in a way I could not - on the subject of government.

[Kirbmarc]

Just a point about libertarians - they tend to be for open borders and against foreign intervention from what I can tell. And historically at least they have chosen to align with the conservatives. Even though there is a libertian party - there are still republicans with libertarian leanings.

That's in the US context - I'm not sure that the concept really makes sense in the UK and the rest of the world.

Ah, OK, fine. In Switzerland libertarians are against foreign interventions and involvement in international organizations and pro-cantonal rights, including pro-cantonal autonomy to fix their borders. They're very much against federal interventions in the canton's politics.

I compared Sargon to the center-right-libertarians in my canton, which are very much against the EU and pro-immigration control but pro-drug legalization and pro-gay rights. They're opposed to both socialists and conservatives.

[pro-boxing-fan]

Ah, OK, fine. In Switzerland libertarians are against foreign interventions and involvement in international organizations and pro-cantonal rights, including pro-cantonal autonomy to fix their borders. They're very much against federal interventions in the canton's politics.

I compared Sargon to the center-right-libertarians in my canton, which are very much against the EU and pro-immigration control but pro-drug legalization and pro-gay rights. They're opposed to both socialists and conservatives.

In bold, this perfectly describe Quebec's nationalists/separatists. Though, this group politics range from far left to far right and everything in between including libertarians. Anyway, it may explain why for me Sargon's views on these subjects does not indicate any kind of left-right politic affiliation. In short, when a Quebecois tell you he's a separatist/nationalist, you know he is against federal intervention and so on but you still have no idea where on the political spectrum he reside.

Anyone outside of libertarians in Switzerland who share the same views? Some sort of coalition around some shared goals?

[Service Dog]

Aneris is far too stupid to address my points with cogent counter-arguments, and will continue to obfuscate, namecall, state unfounded opinions as fact, induce stupor in readers, repeat buzzwords (motte!bailey!dogwhistle!nazi!).

I'm not taking a side in your rather prolonged debate, but I ought to point out that 'stupid' is not a word that seems to apply to Aneris.

Willing to wager on it? I bet Aneris is far too stupid to address my points with cogent counter-arguments, and will continue to obfuscate, namecall, state unfounded opinions as fact, induce stupor in readers, repeat buzzwords (motte!bailey!dogwhistle!nazi!).

[Phil_Giordana_FCD]

Just a point about libertarians - they tend to be for open borders and against foreign intervention from what I can tell. And historically at least they have chosen to align with the conservatives. Even though there is a libertian party - there are still republicans with libertarian leanings.

That's in the US context - I'm not sure that the concept really makes sense in the UK and the rest of the world.

Apparently, here in France libertarians are called liberals. Makes for very confusing discussions, which is why I stick to dick jokes most of the time.

[CaptainFluffyBunny]

Aneris is far too stupid to address my points with cogent counter-arguments, and will continue to obfuscate, namecall, state unfounded opinions as fact, induce stupor in readers, repeat buzzwords (motte!bailey!dogwhistle!nazi!).

I'm not taking a side in your rather prolonged debate, but I ought to point out that 'stupid' is not a word that seems to apply to Aneris.

Willing to wager on it? I bet Aneris is far too stupid to address my points with cogent counter-arguments, and will continue to obfuscate, namecall, state unfounded opinions as fact, induce stupor in readers, repeat buzzwords (motte!bailey!dogwhistle!nazi!).

Not unclever though...once she makes it clear you're a nazi, she no longer has to address your arguments. Not sure where she lands on the whole punching thing.

[CaptainFluffyBunny]

I'm sorry, that Aneris thinks you're a nazi. It is not at all clear you're a nazi, nor that Kirbmarc is terribly niave.

[jugheadnaut]

Ah, OK, fine. In Switzerland libertarians are against foreign interventions and involvement in international organizations and pro-cantonal rights, including pro-cantonal autonomy to fix their borders. They're very much against federal interventions in the canton's politics.

I compared Sargon to the center-right-libertarians in my canton, which are very much against the EU and pro-immigration control but pro-drug legalization and pro-gay rights. They're opposed to both socialists and conservatives.

In bold, this perfectly describe Quebec's nationalists/separatists. Though, this group politics range from far left to far right and everything in between including libertarians. Anyway, it may explain why for me Sargon's views on these subjects does not indicate any kind of left-right politic affiliation. In short, when a Quebecois tell you he's a separatist/nationalist, you know he is against federal intervention and so on but you still have no idea where on the political spectrum he reside.

Anyone outside of libertarians in Switzerland who share the same views? Some sort of coalition around some shared goals?

In the US, this states' rights federalist view is an important component of libertarianism. In fact, many libertarians would call themselves federalists first and see a continuum from individual to family,city, county, state, and country, and say that power should be vested in the lowest level practicable, rather than just seeing the individual against the state. Many libertarians would be absolutely OK with a state trying a single payer health care system, while stalwartly opposing it at the federal level.

[Kirbmarc]

I'm sorry, that Aneris thinks you're a nazi. It is not at all clear you're a nazi, nor that Kirbmarc is terribly niave.

Indeed I'm naive. :lol:

[MarcusAu]

Apparently, here in France libertarians are called liberals. Makes for very confusing discussions, which is why I stick to dick jokes most of the time.

In America - Joke dick sticks to you.

[CaptainFluffyBunny]

Just a point about libertarians - they tend to be for open borders and against foreign intervention from what I can tell. And historically at least they have chosen to align with the conservatives. Even though there is a libertian party - there are still republicans with libertarian leanings.

That's in the US context - I'm not sure that the concept really makes sense in the UK and the rest of the world.

Apparently, here in France libertarians are called liberals. Makes for very confusing discussions, which is why I stick to dick jokes most of the time.

Dick jokes? Don't tease, whip 'em out! I'm sure they won't flop.

[Suet Cardigan]

Amid allegations of unpaid taxes, neo-Nazism, and sex offender, Denver furry convention canceled

One of the leaders of the Furry Raiders, a Fort Colins man who goes by “Foxler Nightfire” (an apparent combination of Fox and Hitler, according to many in the furry community), usually wears black shirts and a red arm band similar to those worn by Nazis, but with a paw print instead of a swastika. Foxler was photographed making a Nazi salute at one point (screenshot from Twitter below), then used the hashtag #altfurry in another tweet, which he pinned to the top of his profile.

3 billion years of evolution and this is the result:

http://media.thedenverchannel.com/photo ... ver1.0.png

http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/lo ... n-canceled

[Spike13]

Found this on Tara Smith's Twitter:

I wonder what academia was built on before women were allowed in? :think:

Hold on, when was this glorious era?

Exploited labor that doubled as sex slaves???

How did that system ever end?

[CaptainFluffyBunny]

UW police recommending felony charges for shooter at Milo event-
http://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-new ... os-speech/

[Tigzy]

You're in a desert walking along in the sand when all of the sudden you look down, and you see a tortoise. It's crawling toward you. You reach down, you flip the tortoise over on its back. The tortoise lays on its back, its belly baking in the hot sun, beating its legs trying to turn itself over, but it can't, not without your help. But you're not helping. Why is that, Steersman?

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Perfect. Perfect.

I always felt Steers was more than a bit Batty.

[Tigzy]

I was pro-Remain but Britain had a strong left-wing tradition of opposition to the EU running from Old Labour stalwarts like Tony Benn to the Communist Party and the Communist Party of Britaim Marxist-Leninist (Splitters).

http://www.communist-party.org.uk/brita ... plots.html

https://www.cpbml.org.uk/leave

And Corbyn, who finally put his Euroskepticism aside for - presumably - the sake of the party (or to keep his leadership intact, one or t'other). In the referendum debates, his support for the Remain position was decidedly lukewarm.

[Kirbmarc]

Apparently, here in France libertarians are called liberals. Makes for very confusing discussions, which is why I stick to dick jokes most of the time.

In America - Joke dick sticks to you.

In Soviet Russia, dicks joke about you!

[Sulman]

Thanks, Suet Cardigan. I now have to watch Tinker Tailor again.

[Shatterface]

I was pro-Remain but Britain had a strong left-wing tradition of opposition to the EU running from Old Labour stalwarts like Tony Benn to the Communist Party and the Communist Party of Britaim Marxist-Leninist (Splitters).

http://www.communist-party.org.uk/brita ... plots.html

https://www.cpbml.org.uk/leave

And Corbyn, who finally put his Euroskepticism aside for - presumably - the sake of the party (or to keep his leadership intact, one or t'other). In the referendum debates, his support for the Remain position was decidedly lukewarm.

He said he was 70% in favour of Remain when he appeared on The Last Leg. That's approximately my own position.

Which makes Corbyn and I 30% racist. Fortunately my racist days fall on the weekend so they don't interfere with work.

[InfraRedBucket]

Apparently, here in France libertarians are called liberals. Makes for very confusing discussions, which is why I stick to dick jokes most of the time.

In America - Joke dick sticks to you.

There's a R Carrier (PhD) reference in there somewhere.

[Shatterface]

You're in a desert walking along in the sand when all of the sudden you look down, and you see a tortoise. It's crawling toward you. You reach down, you flip the tortoise over on its back. The tortoise lays on its back, its belly baking in the hot sun, beating its legs trying to turn itself over, but it can't, not without your help. But you're not helping. Why is that, Steersman?

Best answer I ever heard to this question was Claudia Black as Vala in Stargate: SG1 swatting up for a psych evaluation:

'Vala: (reading) You are in a desert. You see a tortoise that's lying on his back in the hot sun. You recognise his plight, but do nothing to help. Why?' ... Hmn. Why...? Ah: 'Because... you are also... a tortoise...''

I'd actually pass this test because I'd rescue the tortoise for an entirely rational reason: it costs me nothing - and you never know when you might need a tortoise who owes you a favour.

[Matt Cavanaugh]

Vagina Museum?

So that's what Ophie is up to these days.

If show up early and they haven't opened yet, would it be bad form to kick the door?

[Matt Cavanaugh]

In the US, this states' rights federalist view is an important component of libertarianism. In fact, many libertarians would call themselves federalists first and see a continuum from individual to family,city, county, state, and country, and say that power should be vested in the lowest level practicable, rather than just seeing the individual against the state. Many libertarians would be absolutely OK with a state trying a single payer health care system, while stalwartly opposing it at the federal level.

The US Constitution expressly limits the powers of the federal government. The federal government has no police power, for example. That's why it was legal for the state Massachusetts to compel participation in Romney-care, but unconstitutional for the Feds to compel participation in obama-care. Romney tried to point this out in a debate, but everyone mocked him for it.

NB: Universal healthcare at the federal level would not require the use of police power.

[pro-boxing-fan]

Vagina Museum?

So that's what Ophie is up to these days.

There is a penis museum in Iceland. Maybe they should tag together.

:cdc: + steve_shives.jpg = ?

[Aneris]

If a Brexiter invites a Neo Nazi to their show to testify against the "increasingly bureaucratic, plutocratic and undemocratic EU" then yes, this Brexiter will be viewed by me as laying the pipes for Far Right views into the mainstream (this is what the YouTubers factually did). Go on, promote a Neo Nazi to speak for you against the EU and see how successful this is going to be. Go on promote Alex Jones, because he also thinks the mainstream media is lying. Maybe cite Creationists who also complain about academic freedom.

Except that's NOT what happened. Sargon&Co didn't invite the Reichsburger/neo-nazi to testify against the EU. They invited him to show how there's a precedent for sending the police after shitposters, because the naked nazi woman meme was shitposting, harmless speech. The neo-nazi didn't threaten people, didn't express hate, didn't even criticize anything, only posted a dumb, bigoted meme. Kind of overkill to send the police to his home, and a dangerous precedent for any liberal democratic government to set.

Very interesting indeed. After pages on Germany wanting to rule the world through the EU, and me representing everything that is wrong in Germany (including humour), you have changed position yet again. Just take some random fragments, juxtapose them with something else, and then write a populist claptrap. What's this time? Now we're back again to the small things: the guy was just a shitposter. What about heroically standing up for Holocaust Denialism for Freedom of Speech and such things? The big important principles of freedom, I am allegedly undermining (I didn't). They are no longer useful for the time being, I guess? And a Neo Nazi posting political images with a Neo Nazi message is somehow just shitposting. Very interesting Mr Kirbmarc. I hazard the guess that nobody outside will agree with your eccentric take. That would turn almost all propaganda into mere shitposting (i.e. has no real implication). I am super curious what kind of nonsense you have in the next installment.

Besides, here's the stream yet again. Your strategy was to assert posting political memes is just shitposting (and nothing else). The youtubers went a different route: they simply omitted that the guest is a Neo Nazi. Either way works. Don't get me started on ironical or critical distance (which you find with Chomsky you have introduced to the discussion, who also didn't pretend Faurisson was just someone with unpopular opinions). Also see the context. Chomsky was roped into it, but then defended Faurisson freedom of speech and yet the French didn't get your memo, "Faurisson affair greatly damaged Chomsky's reputation in France". Maybe Chomsky should have pointed out that Faurrsion was just shitposting?

Also Sargon&Co never "promoted" Alex Jones, only joked about how a stopped clock was right for once, and how Jones trolled the Young Turks.

Same trick here again. You argued before that one can make common cause with Reichsbürgers and Neo Nazis on issues one finds important (such as freedom of speech). I disagreed and explained, to ridicule by your Baboon gang, that there are more things in play. You can agree by happenstance with anyone, but you don't have to make common cause with them, and there are cases where you shouldn't. This obviously depends on priorities. I see freedom of speech as an important element in Enlightenment values, but Neo Nazis and Reichsbürgers as ultimately opposed to that, even if they momentarily claim they want freedom of speech, too. To me this is a merely a transparent attempt by them to co-opt a free speech movement and a form of entryism. They are not only not helpul, they are harmful. I also reject the whole "Culture Wars" rubbish that your idols are peddling.

[Service Dog]

Amid allegations of unpaid taxes, neo-Nazism, and sex offender, Denver furry convention canceled

I forwarded this to my Japanese girlfriend. Now she's texting me pix of her racist Monchichi collection. Cornrow hair, afros, and this little fella with a farting squirrel on his hat.
http://i.imgur.com/weBzmA4.png

[Phil_Giordana_FCD]

You're in a desert walking along in the sand when all of the sudden you look down, and you see a tortoise. It's crawling toward you. You reach down, you flip the tortoise over on its back. The tortoise lays on its back, its belly baking in the hot sun, beating its legs trying to turn itself over, but it can't, not without your help. But you're not helping. Why is that, Steersman?

Best answer I ever heard to this question was Claudia Black as Vala in Stargate: SG1 swatting up for a psych evaluation:

'Vala: (reading) You are in a desert. You see a tortoise that's lying on his back in the hot sun. You recognise his plight, but do nothing to help. Why?' ... Hmn. Why...? Ah: 'Because... you are also... a tortoise...''

I'd actually pass this test because I'd rescue the tortoise for an entirely rational reason: it costs me nothing - and you never know when you might need a tortoise who owes you a favour.

That's something I've been taught by Sir Pratchett's Small Gods.

[Service Dog]

my Accountant replied to #altfurry, with this:

http://i.imgur.com/CXDIGZL.png

[Malky]

You're in a desert walking along in the sand when all of the sudden you look down, and you see a tortoise. It's crawling toward you. You reach down, you flip the tortoise over on its back. The tortoise lays on its back, its belly baking in the hot sun, beating its legs trying to turn itself over, but it can't, not without your help. But you're not helping. Why is that, Steersman?

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Perfect. Perfect.

I always felt Steers was more than a bit Batty.

I have to admit I dn't understand this :cry:

[free thoughtpolice]

Chomsky not only supported Faurisson's right to engage in holocaust denial, he also has supported the right of the PLO and Hamas to use force against Israel and is credited with laying the foundation for the SJW's love affair with islamists and the leftist movement to boycott Israel. He is even worse than Sargon. :P

[Lsuoma]

Sheer LaBeef throws his toys out the pram and moves to Lapland.

https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-ente ... 81706.html

Oh, wait - it's an "art project".

[Kirbmarc]

Very interesting indeed. After pages on Germany wanting to rule the world through the EU, and me representing everything that is wrong in Germany (including humour)

I've never said this. I've said that Germany benefits from the EU more than other countries, and that other countries are noticing it, not that it "wants to rule the world". Neither I said you were "everything wrong with Germany", even if you are a bit low on humor, or better yet taking things too seriously. Why do you have to be so melodramatic?

, you have changed position yet again. Just take some random fragments, juxtapose them with something else, and then write a populist claptrap. What's this time? Now we're back again to the small things: the guy was just a shitposter. What about heroically standing up for Holocaust Denialism for Freedom of Speech and such things? The big important principles of freedom, I am allegedly undermining (I didn't). They are no longer useful for the time being, I guess? And a Neo Nazi posting political images with a Neo Nazi message is somehow just shitposting. Very interesting Mr Kirbmarc. I hazard the guess that nobody outside will agree with your eccentric take. That would turn almost all propaganda into mere shitposting (i.e. has no real implication). I am super curious what kind of nonsense you have in the next installment.

I haven't "changed my position". What I meant by "shitposting" is that his naked German woman meme didn't harm anyone, it was a dumb, bigoted but harmless opinion. It didn't incite violence, it wasn't a threat, it wasn't even Holocaust Denial, which yes, also would be a dumb, biogted and stupid but just an opinion, not a threat, nor incitement to violence. Who is actually harmed by the naked german woman doing the nazi salute? It's just as damaging as a shitpost. That's what I meant.

If you mean that "shitposting" means "having no real implication", then of course the guy might be a neo-nazi. Or a shitposting troll, for all we know. Who knows? Why shouldn't he allowed to post harmless, if dumb and bigoted, opinions and memes? Why should the police raid his home? Why shouldn't other be allowed to point out that this person didn't harm anyone but was subjected to police harassment due to illiberal German laws?

Besides, here's the stream yet again. Your strategy was to assert posting political memes is just shitposting (and nothing else). The youtubers went a different route: they simply omitted that the guest is a Neo Nazi. Either way works. Don't get me started on ironical or critical distance (which you find with Chomsky you have introduced to the discussion, who also didn't pretend Faurisson was just someone with unpopular opinions). Also see the context. Chomsky was roped into it, but then defended Faurisson freedom of speech and yet the French didn't get your memo, "Faurisson affair greatly damaged Chomsky's reputation in France". Maybe Chomsky should have pointed out that Faurrsion was just shitposting?

Oh, no, poor Noam was roped into it! And he kept his ironic distance, officer, it wasn't his fault for defending thoughtcrime!

The French didn't get the memo because the anti-holocaust denial laws had become a great way to signal their virtue in academia. ;)

Also Sargon&Co never "promoted" Alex Jones, only joked about how a stopped clock was right for once, and how Jones trolled the Young Turks.

Same trick here again. You argued before that one can make common cause with Reichsbürgers and Neo Nazis on issues one finds important (such as freedom of speech). I disagreed and explained, to ridicule by your Baboon gang, that there are more things in play.

Defending someone's freedom of speech doesn't mean siding with them. How many times do I have to spell this out for you? Or do I need to point out my "ironic distance" from Sargon, since I disagree with him on countless issues (as I've already written)?

You can agree by happenstance with anyone, but you don't have to make common cause with them, and there are cases where you shouldn't. This obviously depends on priorities. I see freedom of speech as an important element in Enlightenment values, but Neo Nazis and Reichsbürgers as ultimately opposed to that, even if they momentarily claim they want freedom of speech, too.

So are islamists. So are conservative christians. So are exteme leftists. Do we have to start laws to target their symbols and opinions, too? Do we have to ban the index "God is one" symbol used by the islamic state, or the Westboro Baptist Church, or the hammer and sickle? Do we have to ban literal interpretations of the Qu'ran and the Bible, or Mao's Red Book? Do we have to ban denial of muslim atrocities or of christian atrocities or of communist atrocities? And if someone protests about this by defending those people's right to freedom of speech, do we have to accuse them of laying the pipes for islamist or christian supremacy or communist agendas?

Hell, Scientology is also ultimately opposed to criticism of Scientology. Do we have to ban Dianetics?

To me this is a merely a transparent attempt by them to co-opt a free speech movement and a form of entryism. They are not only not helpul, they are harmful. I also reject the whole "Culture Wars" rubbish that your idols are peddling.

My "idols". Yeah, right. You have a serious problem with reading comprehension, Aneris, and quite frankly you need to slow down with the paranoia.

[Kirbmarc]

Chomsky not only supported Faurisson's right to engage in holocaust denial, he also has supported the right of the PLO and Hamas to use force against Israel and is credited with laying the foundation for the SJW's love affair with islamists and the leftist movement to boycott Israel. He is even worse than Sargon. :P

Yeah, he was clearly a secret islamo-nazi. Aneris will be devastated when she'll realize that.

[Phil_Giordana_FCD]

Where's Com these days? Hope he's ok.


https://scontent-cdg2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/ ... e=59878383

[Lsuoma]

My "idols". Yeah, right. You have a serious problem with reading comprehension, Aneris, and quite frankly you need to slow down with the paranoia.

Dude, Germany was encircled by enemies only just over a hundred years ago. You think that's still not happening?

[Phil_Giordana_FCD]

My favorite band is German.