In 2017 Idiocracy is a Documentary

[Notung]

If you are going to come up with arguments like that tell me how the general election would have had to turned out for it to unequivocally endorse Brexit?

You can't - that's my point. The only way to consult the general public about Brexit would be to strictly define Brexit (i.e. out of customs union, SM, no more retirement in Spain, etc), outline how you'll approach trade deals, say how you'll deal with the Northern Irish border issue, EU cits' rights, timeframe, transition, etc, etc and then hold a referendum with those details made explicit. The government should do these things, so that they're held to account if they don't follow them through. Get the plan in place so the people know what they're voting for/against.

[Ape+lust]

A context-free mystery :think:

https://imgur.com/mtX2RJm.png

[Barbie's Boyfriend]

A context-free mystery :think:

https://imgur.com/mtX2RJm.png

May I watch ???

:suimouth: :suimouth: :suimouth:

[Guest_47b8a62a]

Our FPTP electoral system has done a great job of keeping the far right out of parliament. I read something not so long ago that claimed we might hve had as many as 60 plus MPs from the BNP and other far right parties in the early noughties under a proportional representation system.

CaughtUpLockedOut

[deLurch]

A context-free mystery :think:
https://imgur.com/mtX2RJm.png

A desperate signal to be noticed by a desperate exhibitionist. Turning the stomachs of the few that have stumbled across him is in sufficient. He must turn the stomachs of a much larger audience.

[CaptainFluffyBunny]

A context-free mystery :think:
https://imgur.com/mtX2RJm.png

A desperate signal to be noticed by a desperate exhibitionist. Turning the stomachs of the few that have stumbled across him is in sufficient. He must turn the stomachs of a much larger audience.

I wish that Zinnia would gain an even larger audience and become the face of the transactivist movement. What better way to illustrate the dangers and craziness to the general public?

[Ape+lust]

A context-free mystery :think:

https://imgur.com/mtX2RJm.png

May I watch ???

:suimouth: :suimouth: :suimouth:

We have a choice? The little pudge's skin pics get around :shock:

Don't look at it, Marion!

[Shatterface]

Does that even make sense to you? That, having chosen to leave, everybody does a complete u-turn? And, having done something entirely contrary to their currebt wishes, they'd then accept something even the Remainers had previously opposed and even you can't defend: a unified currency?

But it isn't like that. Half the voters voted for one thing, the other half voted for the other, and then the politicians interpreted the vote and decided to actually take the plunge in a particular way.

No, over half the voters voted one way, less than half voted the other way, and the politicians interpreted the results the only possible way they could be interpreted.

Some numbers are bigger than other numbers. That's not just a point of view.

It wouldn't be "everybody" "choosing" to "do a u-turn". It would be the political class who, having decided to do a Brexit on the basis of an advisory referendum, change their position (or their replacements do) based on the actual effects of Brexit, perhaps on the basis of another referendum.

So it doesn't have to be 'everybody', it would be the political class. And they'd do this on the basis of a referendum. And who would be voting in that referendum if not 'everybody'?

I saw the other day Michael Heseltine said that he believes we will join the Euro at some point, so I don't see why the idea that we might if we were forced to is so ludicrous.

.

Heseltine was mental forty years ago. I doubt he's improved with age.

There is absolutely zero chance that the UK will be adopting the Euro as a result of Brexit. None. You don't need to be Richard Carrier to see that the chain of events you are proposing is so unlikely that the probability of this occurring once within the lifetime of the universe isn't even worth considering.

I don't think this conversation is going anywhere so I'm bowing out.

[Really?]

The Women's March invited Bernie Sanders to be one of a few dozen speakers at their convention. (And only the second man.) They invited high profile women like Hillary, but they declined.

As you might expect, those who believe in gender equality are unhappy with the invitation.

Looks like only another 7 plus years of Trump!

http://time.com/4981357/bernie-sanders- ... onvention/

[Ape+lust]

A context-free mystery :think:
https://imgur.com/mtX2RJm.png

A desperate signal to be noticed by a desperate exhibitionist. Turning the stomachs of the few that have stumbled across him is in sufficient. He must turn the stomachs of a much larger audience.

It's getting harder and harder to remember what he was once like. It's not just a personality change, it's more like he's been physically replaced with a lunatic.

[deLurch]

It's getting harder and harder to remember what he was once like. It's not just a personality change, it's more like he's been physically replaced with a lunatic.

4chan and the other "edgier" places of the internet are fun places to visit. But you sure as shit should not stay there.

[shoutinghorse]

define Brexit (i.e. out of customs union, SM, no more retirement in Spain, etc),

Jesus fucking wept. You honestly think people won't be able to retire to Spain after we leave?
Brits were retiring to Spain when Franco still the gaffer :doh:

[Notung]

No, over half the voters voted one way, less than half voted the other way, and the politicians interpreted the results the only possible way they could be interpreted.

Some numbers are bigger than other numbers. That's not just a point of view.

Yes, about half - my point is that the population is anything but united on this. The way people talk you'd think that the result was 95-5...

So it doesn't have to be 'everybody', it would be the political class. And they'd do this on the basis of a referendum. And who would be voting in that referendum if not 'everybody'?

Yes, but the referendum would be called by the politicians, and again interpreted by the politicians. Ultimately they are the ones who would decide to rejoin if we end up doing that. It's not that far-fetched to think that Brexit being a tangible disaster (if indeed it is) could set such a change in motion.

There is absolutely zero chance that the UK will be adopting the Euro as a result of Brexit. None. You don't need to be Richard Carrier to see that the chain of events you are proposing is so unlikely that the probability of this occurring once within the lifetime of the universe isn't even worth considering.

All it takes is Brexit being a tangible disaster, and the political class (perhaps backed up by a referendum) deciding to rejoin in order to stop the disaster. It's probably more likely than Leicester winning the Premier League...

And if it doesn't happen? Ok, fine. It was only one of 3 outcomes that I'm hoping for. My actual prediction is that Brexit will happen, we'll be stuck in a transition for years that'll be pretty much like being in the EU, then at some point we'll be ready for a final deal. That deal will be pretty bad for both sides but not bad enough to create a tangible disaster. Companies and agencies will (continue to) move to the EU, and perhaps I will too. You'll never encounter anyone who actually voted for Brexit, just like nowadays you don't encounter anyone who supported the invasion of Iraq back then.

[CaptainFluffyBunny]

The far right gets into the heckler's veto act-
https://www.thefire.org/hecklers-shout- ... r-college/

[Shatterface]

A context-free mystery :think:
https://imgur.com/mtX2RJm.png

A desperate signal to be noticed by a desperate exhibitionist. Turning the stomachs of the few that have stumbled across him is in sufficient. He must turn the stomachs of a much larger audience.

It's getting harder and harder to remember what he was once like. It's not just a personality change, it's more like he's been physically replaced with a lunatic.

I only came to this stuff a few years ago so I have no memories of a time Zinnia and the rest weren't mental.

Did these changes happen gradually or was there some 'what the fuck?' moment when previously rational people just broke?

[Notung]

Jesus fucking wept. You honestly think people won't be able to retire to Spain after we leave?
Brits were retiring to Spain when Franco still the gaffer :doh:

Quite right - for the pedantic I should have clarified "under free movement rules". Rich people will still be able to retire wherever they want (what a relief!).

[Guest_09522ed6]

So The "Women's Convention", a tumor of the Women's Convention, lover of pussy hat marches co-founded by Linda Sarsour is having Bernie Sanders open their convention.

vox com/identities/2017/10/13/16469216/bernie-sanders-womens-conference-speech

Sanders isn't the keynote, Maxine Waters is.

But all those pussy hat lovers like Amanda have wadded up their panties over the notion that Sanders is giving the keynote. They are mostly upset with Sanders, we know they would be okay with Justin Trudeau opening the convention, but Sanders sticks to his message which is still often identity politics.

As anyone who follows left-wing politics knows, conflicts between Sanders supporters and Clinton supporters have persisted long after the 2016 Democratic primary. Divisions in Democratic politics today are more complicated than Sanders versus Clinton, but as Stein notes, relitigation of the primary continues. That campaign included online harassment on both sides, and for many Clinton supporters, the memory of being attacked by Sanders supporters on Twitter doesn’t disappear overnight.

That’s part of the story behind the opposition to Sanders’s appearance. But it’s not the only part. Reproductive rights advocates have also been disturbed by Sanders’s post-election comments on abortion rights, as Rebecca Nelson notes at Cosmopolitan. Sanders endorsed Heath Mello, a mayoral candidate this year in Omaha, who had sponsored or voted for several anti-abortion bills during his time in the Nebraska state legislature. When criticized, Sanders said such choices might be necessary “if we’re going to become a 50-state party.”

“If you have a rally in which you have the labor movement and the environmentalists and Native Americans and the African-American community and the Latino community coming together, saying, we want this guy to become our next mayor, should I reject going there to Omaha?” he asked on Face the Nation.

“We have got to appreciate where people come from, and do our best to fight for the pro-choice agenda,” he told NPR. “But I think you just can't exclude people who disagree with us on one issue."

Sanders also noted that he has always voted in favor of abortion rights in Congress. But many saw his comments about the party as a betrayal of women, as well as of progressive values. “To be anti-choice on a policy level is absolutely indefensible from an economic justice, racial justice, gender justice and human rights standpoint,” Lindy West wrote at the New York Times. “And if the Democratic Party does not stand for any of those things, then what on earth is it?”

So Amanda twatted this:

IE,

Beyond that's it's a pretty sex-negative as well as transphobic comment.

How on earth could Amanda Marcotte who insists she is not a scold and insists she is a sex positive feminist and supporter of transwomen make such a sex negative and transphobic comment? :think:

But at any rate, that's the context to Zinnia Jones twat, xe's actually the reasonable person here.

[Kirbmarc]

The Women's March invited Bernie Sanders to be one of a few dozen speakers at their convention. (And only the second man.) They invited high profile women like Hillary, but they declined.

As you might expect, those who believe in gender equality are unhappy with the invitation.

Looks like only another 7 plus years of Trump!

http://time.com/4981357/bernie-sanders- ... onvention/

Apparently the co-founder of the "Women's March" agrees with your analysis?

Bob Bland, an entrepreneur and Women's March co-founder, said she was surprised by the controversy about Sanders' role at the convention, which will include panels on mobilization for the midterms and activist training. "D o we want to re-litigate the past or move forward together?" asks Bland. "Even though we don't agree on every issue, we have to work together to win the midterms in 2018. Otherwise we will continue to lose. We need to focus on that."

[Shatterface]

I wasn't sure about Sanders talking at a women's conference but now know that Zinnia takes it in the butt it's okay.

[Kirbmarc]

The far right gets into the heckler's veto act-
https://www.thefire.org/hecklers-shout- ... r-college/

Authoritarian idiots everywhere. Everyone likes to have the freedom of speech, but only a few fight for the right of people whose ideas they don't like to have the freedom to speak. :bjarte:

[shoutinghorse]

Jesus fucking wept. You honestly think people won't be able to retire to Spain after we leave?
Brits were retiring to Spain when Franco still the gaffer :doh:

Quite right - for the pedantic I should have clarified "under free movement rules". Rich people will still be able to retire wherever they want (what a relief!).

Yeah cos all those poor Brits who own a villa in Spain right. :lol:

I think I'm going to take a leaf out of Shatterface's book.

[Lsuoma]

define Brexit (i.e. out of customs union, SM, no more retirement in Spain, etc),

Jesus fucking wept. You honestly think people won't be able to retire to Spain after we leave?
Brits were retiring to Spain when Franco still the gaffer :doh:

Brits were retiring to Spain BECAUSE Franco still the gaffer.

But you (and VC and others) are right: Naughty Notung is barking right now...

[Notung]

Yeah cos all those poor Brits who own a villa in Spain right. :lol:

Yes, everyone who's not rich is poor, and the only way someone can reside in Spain is to own a villa.

[Kirbmarc]

That’s part of the story behind the opposition to Sanders’s appearance. But it’s not the only part. Reproductive rights advocates have also been disturbed by Sanders’s post-election comments on abortion rights, as Rebecca Nelson notes at Cosmopolitan. Sanders endorsed Heath Mello, a mayoral candidate this year in Omaha, who had sponsored or voted for several anti-abortion bills during his time in the Nebraska state legislature. When criticized, Sanders said such choices might be necessary “if we’re going to become a 50-state party.”

“If you have a rally in which you have the labor movement and the environmentalists and Native Americans and the African-American community and the Latino community coming together, saying, we want this guy to become our next mayor, should I reject going there to Omaha?” he asked on Face the Nation.

“We have got to appreciate where people come from, and do our best to fight for the pro-choice agenda,” he told NPR. “But I think you just can't exclude people who disagree with us on one issue."

Sanders also noted that he has always voted in favor of abortion rights in Congress. But many saw his comments about the party as a betrayal of women, as well as of progressive values. “To be anti-choice on a policy level is absolutely indefensible from an economic justice, racial justice, gender justice and human rights standpoint,” Lindy West wrote at the New York Times. “And if the Democratic Party does not stand for any of those things, then what on earth is it?”

Sanders tries to be pragmatic, the shrieking SJ crowd attacks him. We've seen this happen before during the 2016 primaries, when Clinton fans called Sanders sexist or in one case even a white supremacist. I'm hoping that sooner or later Sanders gets fed up with this and strikes back the SocJus. We need an anti-SocJus left and Sanders might be the one to lead it.

[CaptainFluffyBunny]

Hopefully Matt is staying safe. A lot of his neck of the woods are in flames or ashes.

[Ape+lust]

I only came to this stuff a few years ago so I have no memories of a time Zinnia and the rest weren't mental.

Did these changes happen gradually or was there some 'what the fuck?' moment when previously rational people just broke?

He changed pretty quickly. 2 events were proximate to the change. One: He married his man-hating communist wife. Two: He began HRT with (if I'm not mistaken) self-administered black market hormones.

If you watch a few minutes of this video, you'll see the sea change in his regard for his fellow humans. He's not an obtuse cynic who treats people with dismissive contempt.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DJPT5xMwZaI

[Ape+lust]

Shit. I meant to embed the video:

[Notung]

But you (and VC and others) are right: Naughty Notung is barking right now...

Honestly, perhaps I've got this completely wrong. I thought that without free movement, some people who (with free movement) would have been able to move to the EU to retire, or study, or work, will no longer be able to. I thought that was the idea of free movement. Otherwise, what's the benefit?

[VickyCaramel]

The far right gets into the heckler's veto act-
https://www.thefire.org/hecklers-shout- ... r-college/

One of the ringleaders was Harim Uzziel - Jewish-Latino American.
He sounds as far right as fuck!

[Ape+lust]

But at any rate, that's the context to Zinnia Jones twat, xe's actually the reasonable person here.

So that was it! I couldn't find it. Thank you!

It's a relief to know that if Amanda is ever phone-hacked, we won't be ambushed with pics of her doing it in the butt :dance:

[VickyCaramel]

But you (and VC and others) are right: Naughty Notung is barking right now...

Honestly, perhaps I've got this completely wrong. I thought that without free movement, some people who (with free movement) would have been able to move to the EU to retire, or study, or work, will no longer be able to. I thought that was the idea of free movement. Otherwise, what's the benefit?

You can go pretty much anywhere you want. Most places in the world will let you in, study, work, retire, as long as you haven't got a criminal record and have some way of supporting yourself i.e. a promise of a job or money in the bank. You just have to go to the trouble of filling out the forms.

Free movement means you don't have to meet any requirements and don't have to fill in any forms... which is nice if you are a middle class ponse who has the spare time and disposable income to flit all over europe on the jolly. But it also means we have to let in every nonce, gangster, sponger and wastrel from here to Bucharest.

[Shatterface]

Spain was letting in gangsters before we joined the EU.

The EU actually ruined the retirement prospects of hard working blaggers.

[shoutinghorse]

Sargon's latest state of the union rant.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VYP3uZzeMZo

[Notung]

You can go pretty much anywhere you want. Most places in the world will let you in, study, work, retire, as long as you haven't got a criminal record and have some way of supporting yourself i.e. a promise of a job or money in the bank. You just have to go to the trouble of filling out the forms.

Free movement means you don't have to meet any requirements and don't have to fill in any forms... which is nice if you are a middle class ponse who has the spare time and disposable income to flit all over europe on the jolly. But it also means we have to let in every nonce, gangster, sponger and wastrel from here to Bucharest.

Obviously you don't like it and I do, but apart from that I think we agree on the basics - without free movement you need a job paying a certain amount (in the UK it's £35k I believe) or satisfy some other financial requirement.

I just looked up Spain's minimum income for retirees. €2,130 for an individual and €532.51 per dependent. That's quite a high pension income (and if the pound doesn't recover...). Apparently it can be even higher depending on where you're planning on living.

I imagine that unless we strike some good, open migration deal with the EU (which nobody with the power to do so seems to be pushing for), this will prevent a lot of people retiring to Spain. A reasonable pension income to strive for is just £17.5k per year before tax, which requires a pension pot of £350k. After tax that's £1,264.97 per month.

Fine. Perhaps you'll get the required income and you'll be ok, or perhaps you won't but you don't have any plans to retire in Spain. But my point was initially that that should be made clear to voters before they vote so that the process is properly democratic and they understand what they're voting for.

[windy]

Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden says
October 13, 2017 at 3:20 pm
I didn’t feel inspired to write about it on my blog, but I was so amused I had to share this story about Moorish funerary textiles in Viking graves.
The research itself is interesting enough, and carried out by researchers at Uppsala University who may know a bit more about Viking culture than your average internet troll, but it really is the widespread freakout by racists in the US and the UK that makes the story gold.
I’ll be making my tea with racists’ tears today. Mmmm, delicious, delicious racists’ tears.

They find some embroidered cloth that has "Allah" on it in Viking graves and some "researcher" makes the assumption that it is proof that some Vikings were muslims. Some people write that that isn't certain evidence, maybe the Vikings just thought they were pretty clothes.

Even the "Allah" interpretation is dodgy. A large chunk of the supposed Arabic script was filled in by the researcher outside of the original embroidery.

This is the hypothetical pattern that has been passed around in the media:
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2017/10/ ... 112813.jpg

And this is the pattern in the original:
https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-nEhZxxoSltE/ ... attern.jpg

http://stringgeek.blogspot.nl/2017/10/v ... r-not.html

If you consult Tafl 17:1 in Birka III for a photo of Band 6, you can clearly see the continuous metallic weft of the band turning at each selvedge to enter back in the other direction. If Larsson were correct that Band 6 was originally significantly wider, you would not see those turning loops; you'd see a series of discontinous single passes of brocading weft with cut or broken ends at each edge.

[Steersman]

I think there's a sort of comorbidity between multiculturalism and the welfare state.

If you offer the latter, be a lot more circumspect in who you're inviting in.

Oh believe me, Birmingham, Bradford, Luton and Tower Hamlets
are just packed full of engineers, brain surgeons and rocket scientists.

Yeah.

Somewhat apropos of which, something from "Investment Watch Blog", something I'm sure both Notung and John D will want to check out ...

Majority of Muslims in West Europe are on welfare
In Germany, Muslims account for 1 in 7 Germans 32 years old and younger, and a whopping 80% of them are on welfare.

In Denmark, some 84% of all welfare recipients are non-Danes, most of whom are Muslims.

The latest is that only 20% of Muslims in the UK are employed full time, which means the rest of them don’t work and are on welfare. ...

.... Its white people’s racism that Muslims are on welfare, are less educated, and do not have professional-managerial jobs. That half of the world’s Muslims are inbred from generations of incestuous first-cousin marriages — with attendant birth defects, mental illnesses, and cognitive retardation — has nothing to do with it, of course. /sarc ....

No doubt there's some value in letting in refugees - at least if they're prepared to abide by the laws of the land which seems decidedly not the case with Muslims in general:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yTnyEojs93s

But to do so without considering what the effects will be on job markets, and what will be the final costs seems rather short-sighted if not bordering on the suicidal at best: "virtue signalling" at its finest ....

[Oglebart]

A context-free mystery :think:
https://imgur.com/mtX2RJm.png

A desperate signal to be noticed by a desperate exhibitionist. Turning the stomachs of the few that have stumbled across him is in sufficient. He must turn the stomachs of a much larger audience.

It's getting harder and harder to remember what he was once like. It's not just a personality change, it's more like he's been physically replaced with a lunatic.

Yep, he's got a thread on Kiwi Farms too, proper little attention whore.

https://kiwifarms.net/threads/zinnia-jo ... dal.19416/

[free thoughtpolice]

Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden says
October 13, 2017 at 3:20 pm
I didn’t feel inspired to write about it on my blog, but I was so amused I had to share this story about Moorish funerary textiles in Viking graves.
The research itself is interesting enough, and carried out by researchers at Uppsala University who may know a bit more about Viking culture than your average internet troll, but it really is the widespread freakout by racists in the US and the UK that makes the story gold.
I’ll be making my tea with racists’ tears today. Mmmm, delicious, delicious racists’ tears.

They find some embroidered cloth that has "Allah" on it in Viking graves and some "researcher" makes the assumption that it is proof that some Vikings were muslims. Some people write that that isn't certain evidence, maybe the Vikings just thought they were pretty clothes.

Even the "Allah" interpretation is dodgy. A large chunk of the supposed Arabic script was filled in by the researcher outside of the original embroidery.

This is the hypothetical pattern that has been passed around in the media:
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2017/10/ ... 112813.jpg

And this is the pattern in the original:
https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-nEhZxxoSltE/ ... attern.jpg

http://stringgeek.blogspot.nl/2017/10/v ... r-not.html

If you consult Tafl 17:1 in Birka III for a photo of Band 6, you can clearly see the continuous metallic weft of the band turning at each selvedge to enter back in the other direction. If Larsson were correct that Band 6 was originally significantly wider, you would not see those turning loops; you'd see a series of discontinous single passes of brocading weft with cut or broken ends at each edge.

:lol: It goes from flimsy to fabulous (not in the good way).
Worse still, in the segment to the right of the red lines in the illustration of the original, there appears to be 2 joined swastikas. The racists were right! The Vikings were nazis. They will happily being lapping up transsexual marxist tears. :?

[VickyCaramel]

You can go pretty much anywhere you want. Most places in the world will let you in, study, work, retire, as long as you haven't got a criminal record and have some way of supporting yourself i.e. a promise of a job or money in the bank. You just have to go to the trouble of filling out the forms.

Free movement means you don't have to meet any requirements and don't have to fill in any forms... which is nice if you are a middle class ponse who has the spare time and disposable income to flit all over europe on the jolly. But it also means we have to let in every nonce, gangster, sponger and wastrel from here to Bucharest.

Obviously you don't like it and I do, but apart from that I think we agree on the basics - without free movement you need a job paying a certain amount (in the UK it's £35k I believe) or satisfy some other financial requirement.

I just looked up Spain's minimum income for retirees. €2,130 for an individual and €532.51 per dependent. That's quite a high pension income (and if the pound doesn't recover...). Apparently it can be even higher depending on where you're planning on living.

I imagine that unless we strike some good, open migration deal with the EU (which nobody with the power to do so seems to be pushing for), this will prevent a lot of people retiring to Spain. A reasonable pension income to strive for is just £17.5k per year before tax, which requires a pension pot of £350k. After tax that's £1,264.97 per month.

Fine. Perhaps you'll get the required income and you'll be ok, or perhaps you won't but you don't have any plans to retire in Spain. But my point was initially that that should be made clear to voters before they vote so that the process is properly democratic and they understand what they're voting for.

You make it sound like you are voting for the right to inflict your broke ass on the Spanish, sit your wrinkly arse on a beach and deprive some Spanish youngster of shoddily built Spanish home.

Likewise I have heard people moan that they won't be able to study abroad on their mediocre grades, or that they might have to line up at a longer gate at the airport. Brexit is going to be nightmarishly inconvenient for the Middle classes.

Meanwhile a huge section of the country is on zero-hours contracts, and more worried about having a job that will get them a foreign holiday once every three years and any kind of pension at all.

If you happen to own a stack-em-high-sell-em-cheap kind of business with a load of warehouses, (Asda, Amazon, Argos etc) then having free movement and an endless supply of cheap labour is fantastic. But if you were made redundant, are pushing 50 and all you are getting offered is wharehouse work, it's not so great. You don't know how many hours a week they will offer you, you could get called at any time of the day or night, they will push you like slave drivers, and you dare to take a day off sick the phone will stop ringing and they will replace you with a fit, young Latvian who is over here avoiding National Service.

So no, nobody is going to be pushing for free movement, because no matter how much Asda, Amazon, Argos etc, give in political donations, ultimately politicians need to keep the voters happy. Free movement of people does not benefit anybody who has to compete with those people for work, and that is a lot of people. If you are asking us to balance this against your plans to spend your golden years sipping sangria in Malaga, then you are not going to change many minds.

But look on the bright side, all those rich people who have increased their profits by driving down their labour costs are really going to hate Brexit.

[Notung]

Yes, I realise you don't like freedom of movement. My point was purely that the actual ramifications of losing freedom of movement rights should be made clear to the public before they vote on it, if indeed it is confirmed that they will lose them (and whether or not they will lose them should be officially clarified by the government before the vote takes place). Then they can make an informed choice whether they, like you, want to lose their freedom of movement rights, or like me, keep them.

[Shatterface]

Fine. Perhaps you'll get the required income and you'll be ok, or perhaps you won't but you don't have any plans to retire in Spain. But my point was initially that that should be made clear to voters before they vote so that the process is properly democratic and they understand what they're voting for.

I probably shouldn't bite yet again but since somebody I work with raised the 'retiring to Spain' argument and couldn't answer my response I'll ask you the question instead: what percentage of Brexit voters intend to retire to fucking Spain?

What part of 'out of Europe' are you and they missing?

People who want to retire to Spain didn't vote for Brexit. People who did vote Brexit don't want to retire to Spain. Most of them could never afford to anyway. They most certainly don't give a shit about people who do.

[Shatterface]

Some day they'll uncover the mummified remains of David Beckham and X-Ray analysis of his tattoos will reveal that he was Chinese.

[Notung]

I like how the arguments have migrated from "people will still be able to retire in Spain you idiot!" to "we never wanted to retire in Spain anyway!".

[VickyCaramel]

I like how the arguments have migrated from "people will still be able to retire in Spain you idiot!" to "we never wanted to retire in Spain anyway!".

The only person stopping you from retiring to Spain is you, because you aren't earning enough, just like about 95% of the rest of us.

[VickyCaramel]

I think there's a sort of comorbidity between multiculturalism and the welfare state.

If you offer the latter, be a lot more circumspect in who you're inviting in.

Oh believe me, Birmingham, Bradford, Luton and Tower Hamlets
are just packed full of engineers, brain surgeons and rocket scientists.

Yeah.

Somewhat apropos of which, something from "Investment Watch Blog", something I'm sure both Notung and John D will want to check out ...

Majority of Muslims in West Europe are on welfare
In Germany, Muslims account for 1 in 7 Germans 32 years old and younger, and a whopping 80% of them are on welfare.

In Denmark, some 84% of all welfare recipients are non-Danes, most of whom are Muslims.

The latest is that only 20% of Muslims in the UK are employed full time, which means the rest of them don’t work and are on welfare. ...

.... Its white people’s racism that Muslims are on welfare, are less educated, and do not have professional-managerial jobs. That half of the world’s Muslims are inbred from generations of incestuous first-cousin marriages — with attendant birth defects, mental illnesses, and cognitive retardation — has nothing to do with it, of course. /sarc ....

No doubt there's some value in letting in refugees - at least if they're prepared to abide by the laws of the land which seems decidedly not the case with Muslims in general:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yTnyEojs93s

But to do so without considering what the effects will be on job markets, and what will be the final costs seems rather short-sighted if not bordering on the suicidal at best: "virtue signalling" at its finest ....

I think I have made the case against free movement without even mentioning all the muslim immigrants Europe has let in, not to mention the millions we let in from the former colonies purely on the basis that they know somebody here already. (Lets face it, few people are competing in the jobs market with them).

And if you do mention them, you don't have to mention crime or terrorism. If your numbers for UK muslims are correct, and I am almost certain they are underestimated seeing as they really don't want us to know the true figures, they sure as hell don't want us to know how many people are in the black economy, it still means 3 million people for the NHS, Police, education and all the rest of our infrastructure to deal with, and yet 2.4 million of them aren't paying into it.

And yet I bet the people screaming loudest about the Tories not giving the NHS enough money are the same ones throwing their hands up and screaming "racist" because we don't have an open borders policy.

[screwtape]

.. John Brunner's Stand on Zanzibar).

Loved that book. He wrote one of those curious books based on a game of chess, which i think was called The Squares of the City.

When I was a student, I budgeted one pound a week for buying books that weren't textbooks. I decided, being young and stupid, that I would buy what I enjoyed rather than those books that were revered. So I learnt where all the secondhand bookshops were and browsed them carefully buying pretty much only SF. So many good reads, including some lesser names that were always reliable: Edmund Cooper, John Christopher, Bob Shaw, Richard Cowper. Later I understood why the books I didn't buy then were revered, and had to shell out for them.

[rayshul]

I think there's a gap here in that Notung thinks Europe is better than Britain, and Remainers think Britain is better than Europe. Remainers will likely retire within Britain because they like their country. I'm sure there are other ways for you to get what you want Notung without relying on Brexit.

[Matt Cavanaugh]

Hopefully Matt is staying safe. A lot of his neck of the woods are in flames or ashes.

Thanks.

Fires here are mostly contained, and my local friends were allowed to return to their homes. My friend in the next county over was going today to visit where her house used to be. The neighbor said they were feeding her cat that had gotten loose but hopefully survived somehow.

Family friends have a house in Napa that is threatened. There's about 100,000 acres burning up that way.

Rain forecast for the end of the week.

[free thoughtpolice]

Matt, How are conditions?

[free thoughtpolice]

:nin:

[Steersman]

<snip>
Oh believe me, Birmingham, Bradford, Luton and Tower Hamlets
are just packed full of engineers, brain surgeons and rocket scientists.

Yeah.

Somewhat apropos of which, something from "Investment Watch Blog", something I'm sure both Notung and John D will want to check out ...

Majority of Muslims in West Europe are on welfare
In Germany, Muslims account for 1 in 7 Germans 32 years old and younger, and a whopping 80% of them are on welfare. ....

No doubt there's some value in letting in refugees - at least if they're prepared to abide by the laws of the land which seems decidedly not the case with Muslims in general:

[.youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yTnyEojs93s[/youtube]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yTnyEojs93s

But to do so without considering what the effects will be on job markets, and what will be the final costs seems rather short-sighted if not bordering on the suicidal at best: "virtue signalling" at its finest ....

I think I have made the case against free movement without even mentioning all the muslim immigrants Europe has let in, not to mention the millions we let in from the former colonies purely on the basis that they know somebody here already. (Lets face it, few people are competing in the jobs market with them).

Haven't followed all the discussion really closely, but certainly seems to be plenty of justification for questioning the "free movement" mantra. Maybe it's a good idea in principle, but when the citizens of different countries have very different sets of ethics - work and otherwise - allowing free movement seems like a recipe for disaster - as the EU seems to prove. Apropos of, looks like rank insanity that the EU is still toying with the idea of letting in Turkey.

But all of that's before "the Muslim issue" which seems to be the proverbial last straw that's underlined all of that - in red if not blood.

And yet I bet the people screaming loudest about the Tories not giving the NHS enough money are the same ones throwing their hands up and screaming "racist" because we don't have an open borders policy.

Yeah.

[ConcentratedH2O, OM]

Well done, Meyers.

Not just body-shaming, but flat-out hypocritical too.

https://i.imgur.com/5bUdRan.png

[Shatterface]

I like how the arguments have migrated from "people will still be able to retire in Spain you idiot!" to "we never wanted to retire in Spain anyway!".

People can retire to Spain if they can afford it. My point is that people who voted Brexit don't want to. Those argument don't conflict with each other.

You didn't answer my question. What percentage of Brexit voters want to retire to Spain?

The guy at work who raised the same issue as you did thought he's found the same flaw with Brexit you thought you'd found. He thought retirees in Spain had voted for Brexit. He said 'Serve them right - now they'll have to come home!'

The fact that the intersection of Brexit voters and expat retirees is incredibly small escaped him. As did the fact he'd revealed himself to be an total mong.

(Same guy comes out with the 'toddlers kill more people than Islamists' line after every attack.)

[ConcentratedH2O, OM]

https://i.imgur.com/uayaNM6.png

[Shatterface]

Free movement within Europe wasn't the main issue anyway. It's not like Britain was over-run with French and Germans plonking gothic cathedrals on every corner, or Italians on scooters chasing down women to punch their bottoms. Even the Poles had gone home.

The issue most people had with immigration was with those from outside the EU being openly invited in then exploiting that free movement as soon as they crossed the border. If they aren't a problem Europe will find it easy enough to accommodate them with or without our help.

[Shatterface]

Yes, Italians punch bottoms. If you have any questions about fisting address them to Zinnia.

[katamari Damassi]

Amanda Marcotte thinks Sanders is the keynote speaker? You can tell how much that feminist pays attention to things like women's conferences. WOC Maxine Waters is the keynote. You would think an intersectional feminist would be aware of that.

[free thoughtpolice]

Ogvorbis: Swimming without a parachute. says
October 14, 2017 at 4:41 pm
the Boy Scouts’ decision was “nothing less than a war on boys.”
I don’t even know where to go with this.
Caine says
October 14, 2017 at 4:46 pm
Ogvorbis:
I don’t even know where to go with this.
There isn’t anyplace to go with it. It’s the same old plaint, “females are invading every last sacred space of homosociality!”
Ogvorbis: Swimming without a parachute. says
October 14, 2017 at 4:50 pm
Caine:
Sorry. I was reacting to that based on my history with scouting. And my initial reaction was to wonder: if what I did and what was done to me was not a “war on boys”, what was it? Utopian training for a misogynist world? Which is why I don’t really know where to go when I read something like that.
Caine says
October 14, 2017 at 4:56 pm
No need for sorry, I understood, which is why I don’t think there’s anywhere to go with it, because boy scouts has stayed, with determination, regressive, servicing many outdated notions, to say the least. This is an old complaint, that any move towards progress and current social mores will utterly destroy masculinity. Whereas teaching boys toxic masculinity is okely dokely.
At most, the hysteria merits an eyeroll, because it’s not like BS has all of a sudden become wonderfully inclusive in all respects.

[Lsuoma]

Then they can make an informed choice whether they, like you, want to lose their freedom of movement rights, or like me, keep them.

I think you're missing the point - the real motivation is not people who voted Leave losing THEIR freedom (which was likely theoretical only) but restricting the right of others. Which you may or may not agree with, but is a perfectly understandable and acceptable position for citizens of any given state to take, if they so wish.

[AndrewV69]

Amanda Marcotte thinks Sanders is the keynote speaker? You can tell how much that feminist pays attention to things like women's conferences. WOC Maxine Waters is the keynote. You would think an intersectional feminist would be aware of that.

I first read it as Amanda Marcotte was into anal sex. I was so startled I had to reread it.