In 2017 Idiocracy is a Documentary

[Barbie's Boyfriend]

[Barbie's Boyfriend]

Imagine how much energy could be saved if Matt would stop double posting ???

[Matt Cavanaugh]

Can some pitter who knows something about music help me understand what she has accomplished?

It sounds beautiful, but it also sounds a bit familiar.

She stole it from a Led Zeppelin song. Who stole it from a Memphis Minnie song.

[Matt Cavanaugh]

Can some pitter who knows something about music help me understand what she has accomplished?

It sounds beautiful, but it also sounds a bit familiar.

She stole it from a Led Zeppelin song. Who stole it from a Memphis Minnie song.

[MarcusAu]

I tried to find out more on why the honey bees are going missing - but this is the first hit for a search on keywords 'Bee Rapture'

[VickyCaramel]

The space requirement for solar is going to be your roof, which unless you've got a really weird lifestyle shouldn't impact you in any way. Maintenance is minimal. The expense can be offset by savings on your electric bill and in many cases arranged so that the savings are higher than or equal to the loan payments on the installation. There really shouldn't be so much resistance to the idea, even if people still want to argue there's more low-hanging fruit in going nuclear.

Aside from the fact that we only see sun 3 days a year in England, when it isn't sunny it is raining. Rain makes the solar panels dirty which reduces their efficiency. Even in places like sunny California, they recommend you get up on your roof and clean them 3-4 times a year.

Well fuck that, I'm not getting up on my roof ever. And last time I paid somebody to go up on the roof they wanted £60 just for showing up.

Besides, I hear that they are no longer subsidizing this with taxpayer money, which lead to many of the companies doing it going bankrupt. Current estimates are that under the current system it could take 23 years before you earn your money back on a solar power setup in the UK.... but you'll be doing your bit right?

[Matt Cavanaugh]

Haha... stupid numbers are stupid. Solar is not particularly useful in most places where people really live. They produce extremely unreliable power and could, at best produce enough power to help with peak demand when it is warm and sunny.

Yes, but they're working on this new, experimental technology called storage batteries.

I'm completely on solar, and it's completely overcast outside and has been raining for two days. Yet here I am, double-posting on my electrified computer, with my electrified fridge humming in the background. Duh.

As I mentioned, solar could provide for all of the US's electrical consumption. That doesn't have to be the only source, but it could be. They don't all have to go on rooftops, but they could.

We have a power grid infrastructure that transfers power over great distances from source to users. The knock against renewables is, Oh we'd have to upgrade and modernize and expand our power grid -- that's impossible!

But the alternative proposed is to build massive nuclear reactors that won't come on line for decades. Or to someday build thorium reactors that they've been trying to make work for forty years and still can't figure it out. And then those new reactors would necessitate ... wait for it ... upgrading and modernizing and expanding our power grid.

C'mon, think a little before repeating retarded libertarian nonsense.

[Matt Cavanaugh]

Haha... stupid numbers are stupid. Solar is not particularly useful in most places where people really live. They produce extremely unreliable power and could, at best produce enough power to help with peak demand when it is warm and sunny.

Yes, but they're working on this new, experimental technology called storage batteries.

I'm completely on solar, and it's completely overcast outside and has been raining for two days. Yet here I am, double-posting on my electrified computer, with my electrified fridge humming in the background. Duh.

As I mentioned, solar could provide for all of the US's electrical consumption. That doesn't have to be the only source, but it could be. They don't all have to go on rooftops, but they could.

We have a power grid infrastructure that transfers power over great distances from source to users. The knock against renewables is, Oh we'd have to upgrade and modernize and expand our power grid -- that's impossible!

But the alternative proposed is to build massive nuclear reactors that won't come on line for decades. Or to someday build thorium reactors that they've been trying to make work for forty years and still can't figure it out. And then those new reactors would necessitate ... wait for it ... upgrading and modernizing and expanding our power grid.

C'mon, think a little before repeating retarded libertarian nonsense.

[Matt Cavanaugh]

Imagine... it is already difficult to make efficient solar panels

Bullshit. Efficiency continues to steadily rise while price/watt is plummeting.

[Matt Cavanaugh]

Imagine... it is already difficult to make efficient solar panels

Bullshit. Efficiency continues to steadily rise while price/watt is plummeting.

[Matt Cavanaugh]

, which again means transporting the electricity,

Maybe one day they'll invent, I dunno, really big wires to transport the electricity.

Here's an artist's conception of this hypothetical future technology:

PowerTransmissionLines.jpg

(593.71 KiB) Downloaded 69 times

it also makes the maintenance of these huge machines expensive.

That would suck to have huge, expensive machines to maintain.

Nuclear.power.plant.jpg

(311.08 KiB) Downloaded 69 times

[Matt Cavanaugh]

, which again means transporting the electricity,

Maybe one day they'll invent, I dunno, really big wires to transport the electricity.

Here's an artist's conception of this hypothetical future technology:

PowerTransmissionLines.jpg

it also makes the maintenance of these huge machines expensive.

That would suck to have huge, expensive machines to maintain.

Nuclear.power.plant.jpg

[Matt Cavanaugh]

Aside from the fact that we only see sun 3 days a year in England, when it isn't sunny it is raining.

How come the Danes figured out how to already get 70% of their electric from wind, yet you lime-suckers can't?

Rain makes the solar panels dirty which reduces their efficiency. Even in places like sunny California, they recommend you get up on your roof and clean them 3-4 times a year.

I didn't get that memo. I'm supposed to change the angles of the panels in the winter, but I can't even bother. But I agree: building a thorium reactor is a lot less work than climbing up on the roof with a hose or taking a wrench to a bolt.

Well fuck that, I'm not getting up on my roof ever. And last time I paid somebody to go up on the roof they wanted £60 just for showing up.

Who are you going to pay to dispose of your nuclear waste?

[John D]

Christ Matt.. haha... the double post.

Look - I am not against any particular technology. They all have pluses and minuses.

In general, I am not in favor of incentives and the idea that the government should manipulate the energy economy.

I am happy to be wrong... and if solar really starts to make sense then fine. But I think we should let the market figure this out. (aka... our government should do nothing)

[Matt Cavanaugh]

Aside from the fact that we only see sun 3 days a year in England, when it isn't sunny it is raining.

How come the Danes figured out how to already get 70% of their electric from wind, yet you lime-suckers can't?

Rain makes the solar panels dirty which reduces their efficiency. Even in places like sunny California, they recommend you get up on your roof and clean them 3-4 times a year.

I didn't get that memo. I'm supposed to change the angles of the panels in the winter, but I can't even bother. But I agree: building a thorium reactor is a lot less work than climbing up on the roof with a hose or taking a wrench to a bolt.

Well fuck that, I'm not getting up on my roof ever. And last time I paid somebody to go up on the roof they wanted £60 just for showing up.

Who are you going to pay to dispose of your nuclear waste?

[jet_lagg]

Haha... And I love imagining a future where everyone's roof has solar panels.... what does this look like? Well, you can't have any trees blocking the panels so no shade is allowed. You need to point the panels dynamically at the sun to make the electric collection work. Who needs trees shading your south exposed windows and porch?.... fuck it. Just brick over all the south facing windows to reduce heat coming into the house... In fact... who needs windows... let's just live underground in LED lit caves! Super efficient... sounds fucking fantastic!

I just imagine suburbia as a vast field of solar panels with little roads running to all the homes that are completely underground. Just miles and miles of solar panels and driveways with electric cars charging up.

Just daydreaming here. This would be neat in some kind of dystopian movie.

Yeah, just imagine the dystopian nightmare with all the houses in the suburbs looking like this.

https://i.imgur.com/fEbfksX.jpg

:bjarte:

[Kirbmarc]

This isn't going to end well. The KSA is clearly trying to set off a proxy war with Iran in Lebanon, maybe even drag in Israel. Iran, on the other hand, is going to retaliate. Bad news for everyone.

[John D]

Haha... And I love imagining a future where everyone's roof has solar panels.... what does this look like? Well, you can't have any trees blocking the panels so no shade is allowed. You need to point the panels dynamically at the sun to make the electric collection work. Who needs trees shading your south exposed windows and porch?.... fuck it. Just brick over all the south facing windows to reduce heat coming into the house... In fact... who needs windows... let's just live underground in LED lit caves! Super efficient... sounds fucking fantastic!

I just imagine suburbia as a vast field of solar panels with little roads running to all the homes that are completely underground. Just miles and miles of solar panels and driveways with electric cars charging up.

Just daydreaming here. This would be neat in some kind of dystopian movie.

Yeah, just imagine the dystopian nightmare with all the houses in the suburbs looking like this.

https://i.imgur.com/fEbfksX.jpg

:bjarte:

Nice!

I was just thinking about a dystopian fiction idea. I am not saying this is going to happen. So, what is the payback on the solar?

[CommanderTuvok]

This isn't going to end well. The KSA is clearly trying to set off a proxy war with Iran in Lebanon, maybe even drag in Israel. Iran, on the other hand, is going to retaliate. Bad news for everyone.

Really? Well, I agree if Israel is dragged into it, yes. But if Saudi and Iran drag themselves down, GOOD! They are the prime sources (along with Pakistan) of extremism and terrorism in the world. Fuck 'em.

OIl prices would likely go up, tho. Bummer.

[Matt Cavanaugh]

Christ Matt.. haha... the double post.

Look - I am not against any particular technology. They all have pluses and minuses.

In general, I am not in favor of incentives and the idea that the government should manipulate the energy economy.

I am happy to be wrong... and if solar really starts to make sense then fine. But I think we should let the market figure this out. (aka... our government should do nothing)

I don't share your faith in the benevolence of 'The Market'.

The US government currently hands out huge subsidies to the nuclear and fossil fuel industries.

One of the biggest govt programs was the Tennessee Valley Authority, which brought power to large sections of the country, and greatly spurred the economy and fostered prosperity.

I also prefer incentives over coercion or punitive measures. Solar mortgages are one incentive where the govt could give a leg up to solar. It would only require it to be a lender, something it does all the time for other things.

[Matt Cavanaugh]

Christ Matt.. haha... the double post.

Look - I am not against any particular technology. They all have pluses and minuses.

In general, I am not in favor of incentives and the idea that the government should manipulate the energy economy.

I am happy to be wrong... and if solar really starts to make sense then fine. But I think we should let the market figure this out. (aka... our government should do nothing)

I don't share your faith in the benevolence of 'The Market'.

The US government currently hands out huge subsidies to the nuclear and fossil fuel industries.

One of the biggest govt programs was the Tennessee Valley Authority, which brought power to large sections of the country, and greatly spurred the economy and fostered prosperity.

I also prefer incentives over coercion or punitive measures. Solar mortgages are one incentive where the govt could give a leg up to solar. It would only require it to be a lender, something it does all the time for other things.

[feathers]

I say we build a shit ton of windmills so we can slaughter millions of birds! A tiny fraction of our electrical power comes from windmills and we are already killing hundreds of thousands of the little blighters. But who cares... At least we will not use those nasty fossil fuels!

As opposed to oil and coal, which take no victims at all.

[jet_lagg]

Nice!

I was just thinking about a dystopian fiction idea. I am not saying this is going to happen. So, what is the payback on the solar?

Your dystopian idea made it sound like you really believed people had to cut down their trees and install servos to make the panels track the sun across the sky, but I'll leave it alone. I don't have any numbers on the payback, and it's going to vary pretty dramatically from case to case regardless. I had some family members install panels on their roof a few years back and it's a net savings for them. They're mostly self sufficient in the summer and go back on the grid in the winter. This is in Connecticut which isn't as rainy as the U.K. but isn't as sunny as Arizona either.

[John D]

Christ Matt.. haha... the double post.

Look - I am not against any particular technology. They all have pluses and minuses.

In general, I am not in favor of incentives and the idea that the government should manipulate the energy economy.

I am happy to be wrong... and if solar really starts to make sense then fine. But I think we should let the market figure this out. (aka... our government should do nothing)

I don't share your faith in the benevolence of 'The Market'.

The US government currently hands out huge subsidies to the nuclear and fossil fuel industries.

One of the biggest govt programs was the Tennessee Valley Authority, which brought power to large sections of the country, and greatly spurred the economy and fostered prosperity.

I also prefer incentives over coercion or punitive measures. Solar mortgages are one incentive where the govt could give a leg up to solar. It would only require it to be a lender, something it does all the time for other things.

I just think that most government incentives are perverse. And often government spending is a complete waste. I just have little faith in government programs. The track record is bad. I would be in favor of effective government subsidies... to bad so few of them actually work. So, until the government can prove that they do this kind of thing well, they should stay out of it.

I worked with a guy who used the electric vehicle credit in the 2000s to buy a golf cart. Haha. The thing didn't cost him a penny. He basically figured out how to get the Feds to buy him a golf cart. Fuck me. He used it to drive around his subdivision.

Then there is the bio-fuel bull shit, and the Solyndra scam... etc. This shit is just damn discouraging.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/solyndra ... d2bbde4a2b

[VickyCaramel]

, which again means transporting the electricity,

Maybe one day they'll invent, I dunno, really big wires to transport the electricity.

Here's an artist's conception of this hypothetical future technology:

PowerTransmissionLines.jpg

it also makes the maintenance of these huge machines expensive.

That would suck to have huge, expensive machines to maintain.

Nuclear.power.plant.jpg

If things were the way you paint them, we wouldn't need to worry about the environment. But you are glossing over huge problems.

Denmark has a population of under 6 million. London has a population of 9 million!

As far as I know, we have the two largest offshore farms in the world, the UK produces more wind power than Denmark or Holland... the thing is that they don't use much power, they also use subsidies. And strangely, many of their biggest manufacturers produce stuff like solar panels! There are also issues like access to gas and nuclear power etc. Comparative prices.

Chances are, the UK and Germany are paying for Danish power through monies paid to the EU. I seem to remember this is why the Dutch are making our wind farms -- tariffs, tax breaks and envelopes stuffed full of cash.

It is all very well feeling smug because your solar panels will pay for themselves before you retire, but it is a whole other story if you are running a steel plant in Teesside or a car factory in Swindon.

These sources of energy are inefficient. Transporting electricity makes it more inefficient. This all makes it expensive, and that expense pushes up costs at every level of the economy. Even if we surrounded our island with wind farms and covered our roofs with solar panels, what's left of our industry couldn't be competitive. Thats the same reason the US can't and won't jump head first into alternative energy.

As for current nuclear power, that is a whole other story of corruption, monopolies, uncertainty and risk, making it far more expensive than it needs to be. The way I understand it, nobody wants to invest unless the returns are massive because the investment is very long term and is considered to carry risk, mainly of the projects being canceled before they can give a return. However we know it works, and could be cheaper, cleaner and more efficient.

I would rather there were huge subsidies for nuclear and gas which gives us cheap energy and keeps us competitive, than huge subsidies for wind and solar which gives us expensive energy, with all the cash ending up in the pockets of the Danish and the Dutch.

[feathers]

Another problem with wind (aside from the noise pollution and the fact they look horrible) is that they take up space, and where the energy is needed, space is at a premium. So now we have them offshore, which again means transporting the electricity, it also makes the maintenance of these huge machines expensive.

Fortunately, large leaky oil pipelines, megatankers, fracking and nuclear waste are not know to cause the environment any trouble. Besides, who can object to the aesthetics of a mining operation, a nuclear power plant or an oil well?

https://img-aws.ehowcdn.com/750x428p/ph ... 279301.jpg

https://cdn.deseretnews.com/images/arti ... 800569.jpg

[jet_lagg]

Also, said family has never, to my knowledge, cleaned the panels.

[John D]

Fuck those Dutch and their damned windmills.

download.jpg

(7.2 KiB) Downloaded 136 times

[feathers]

I say we build a shit ton of windmills so we can slaughter millions of birds! A tiny fraction of our electrical power comes from windmills and we are already killing hundreds of thousands of the little blighters.

This is a graph of the average number of fucks historically given about birds by conservatives:

https://i.stack.imgur.com/7BQTA.png

Until wind energy comes up.

[feathers]

In general, I am not in favor of incentives and the idea that the government should manipulate the energy economy.

If you leave that to the market alone, they will keep selling fossil fuels if they have to kill the last bird in the last tarpit before they turn to alternative energy.

[Barbie's Boyfriend]

I say we build a shit ton of windmills so we can slaughter millions of birds! A tiny fraction of our electrical power comes from windmills and we are already killing hundreds of thousands of the little blighters.

This is a graph of the average number of fucks historically given about birds by conservatives:

https://i.stack.imgur.com/7BQTA.png

Until wind energy comes up.

Maybe they're jealous that they didn't get to blast them outta the sky first ???

[Sunder]

If the government didn't "manipulate the energy economy" then the price of gas would be significantly higher than it is and at several points in recent history when the petroleum supply was interrupted parts of the US would come to a standstill if the govt. didn't loan or sell its own petroleum reserves to private companies.

[Matt Cavanaugh]

Denmark has a population of under 6 million. London has a population of 9 million!

The Cesspool of Lies sez the UK with 66 million pop produces 41.5 tW from wind; Denmark with 5.7 million, 14.1 tW. So those herring-gobblers are 3.9x more productive than you banger-swallowers. You've grown fat, lazy, and stupid, Britons!

It is all very well feeling smug because your solar panels will pay for themselves before you retire, but it is a whole other story if you are running a steel plant in Teesside or a car factory in Swindon.

LOL. I was in the black after a few years.
What type of energy do those factories run on. Would it be electricity by any chance?

These sources of energy are inefficient. Transporting electricity makes it more inefficient.

So, the type of electricity generated by wind & solar is more expensive to move than that other type of electricity generated by coal and nuclear. Got it.

As for current nuclear power, that is a whole other story of corruption, monopolies, uncertainty and risk, making it far more expensive than it needs to be. The way I understand it, nobody wants to invest unless the returns are massive because the investment is very long term and is considered to carry risk, mainly of the projects being canceled before they can give a return. However we know it works, and could be cheaper, cleaner and more efficient.

Compared to wind & solar, which we also know works, don't require such massive investment or very long-term waits, are already vastly cleaner, and also cheaper once economies of scale factor in. Yeah, let's do more of the dirty, dangerous, inefficient thing, that has delayed recoupment of huge upfront costs, performed by an industry rife with corruption.

[Matt Cavanaugh]

Denmark has a population of under 6 million. London has a population of 9 million!

The Cesspool of Lies sez the UK with 66 million pop produces 41.5 tW from wind; Denmark with 5.7 million, 14.1 tW. So those herring-gobblers are 3.9x more productive than you banger-swallowers. You've grown fat, lazy, and stupid, Britons!

It is all very well feeling smug because your solar panels will pay for themselves before you retire, but it is a whole other story if you are running a steel plant in Teesside or a car factory in Swindon.

LOL. I was in the black after a few years.
What type of energy do those factories run on. Would it be electricity by any chance?

These sources of energy are inefficient. Transporting electricity makes it more inefficient.

So, the type of electricity generated by wind & solar is more expensive to move than that other type of electricity generated by coal and nuclear. Got it.

As for current nuclear power, that is a whole other story of corruption, monopolies, uncertainty and risk, making it far more expensive than it needs to be. The way I understand it, nobody wants to invest unless the returns are massive because the investment is very long term and is considered to carry risk, mainly of the projects being canceled before they can give a return. However we know it works, and could be cheaper, cleaner and more efficient.

Compared to wind & solar, which we also know works, don't require such massive investment or very long-term waits, are already vastly cleaner, and also cheaper once economies of scale factor in. Yeah, let's do more of the dirty, dangerous, inefficient thing, that has delayed recoupment of huge upfront costs, performed by an industry rife with corruption.

[Barbie's Boyfriend]

What Conservatives don't realize is that the TRUE cost of fossil fuels is NOT what you pay at the pump. Who pays for the military to keep the shipping lanes open? The costs of clean ups? Etc.

So it would seem that fossil fuels are already being subsidized. I once read ( please don't ask for a link, it was a long time ago. Perhaps a Paul Krugman column) that when you consider in all of the costs shared by society, the true cost of a gallon of gas was $8.00 per gallon. And what about future costs? Kinda puts the costs of alternative energy sources in a different perspective

[Lsuoma]

Haha.

That'll buff out.

[Lsuoma]

She had perfectly fine A cups.

Now her and Blare White have at least two things in common.

Can't be easy getting a tan when you are thinner than the wavelength of UV light.

Fuck me, but you're good. Unfortunately, I don't think going to ever higher Alphas make sense. However...

Best. Post. Evah!

[Matt Cavanaugh]

I just think that most government incentives are perverse. And often government spending is a complete waste. I just have little faith in government programs. The track record is bad.
I would be in favor of effective government subsidies... to bad so few of them actually work. So, until the government can prove that they do this kind of thing well, they should stay out of it.

They're in it already. What makes you think the subsidies given to the nuclear & fossil fuel industries are any better?

What's your monthly electric bill, John? If the govt offered you a mortgage, whereby you install a solar power system that covers your full household needs, with your monthly mortgage payments exactly equal to your monthly electric bill, would you take it?

Then there is the bio-fuel bull shit, and the Solyndra scam... etc. This shit is just damn discouraging.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/solyndra ... d2bbde4a2b

Yeah, well obama's green energy initiative was a complete sham, designed only to funnel kickbacks to his biggest donors. Solyndra was trying to build unproven, bleeding-edge solar 'tubes'. Funding a trad photovoltaics plant would've been a success.

Ethanol from corn is inefficient. Cane or beet sugar is better, but grasses and various cellulose wastes & byproducts offer even better efficiency.

[Kirbmarc]

I just think that most government incentives are perverse. And often government spending is a complete waste. I just have little faith in government programs. The track record is bad.
I would be in favor of effective government subsidies... to bad so few of them actually work. So, until the government can prove that they do this kind of thing well, they should stay out of it.

They're in it already. What makes you think the subsidies given to the nuclear & fossil fuel industries are any better?

Yes, this is something I don't get about a lot of conservatives and libertarians, they're always talking about a fictional world where no government subsidies exist and pretending that different kinds of government subsidies are the slippery slope towards communism.

It's the mirror image of the "real communism has never been tried" crowd on the left. Neither deals with the reality that all governments intervene in the economy and no economy can be planned completely. They're both aiming towards abstract systems (a world without government spending or a world where people love and share freely) and see anything that looks like a deviation from the Utopian dream as Bad, no matter whether it improves on the current situation or not.

[Kirbmarc]

Incidentally more clean energy also means less vested interests in the MENA countries and an opportunity to tell MENA theocracies to fuck off. Win-win.

[dogen]

Another problem with wind (aside from the noise pollution and the fact they look horrible) is that they take up space, and where the energy is needed, space is at a premium. So now we have them offshore, which again means transporting the electricity, it also makes the maintenance of these huge machines expensive.

Fortunately, large leaky oil pipelines, megatankers, fracking and nuclear waste are not know to cause the environment any trouble. Besides, who can object to the aesthetics of a mining operation, a nuclear power plant or an oil well?

https://img-aws.ehowcdn.com/750x428p/ph ... 279301.jpg

https://cdn.deseretnews.com/images/arti ... 800569.jpg

That second image is literally rape.

[screwtape]

Haha... And I love imagining a future where everyone's roof has solar panels.... what does this look like? Well, you can't have any trees blocking the panels so no shade is allowed. You need to point the panels dynamically at the sun to make the electric collection work. Who needs trees shading your south exposed windows and porch?.... fuck it. Just brick over all the south facing windows to reduce heat coming into the house... In fact... who needs windows... let's just live underground in LED lit caves! Super efficient... sounds fucking fantastic!

I just imagine suburbia as a vast field of solar panels with little roads running to all the homes that are completely underground. Just miles and miles of solar panels and driveways with electric cars charging up.

Just daydreaming here. This would be neat in some kind of dystopian movie.

Yeah, just imagine the dystopian nightmare with all the houses in the suburbs looking like this.

https://i.imgur.com/fEbfksX.jpg

:bjarte:

But you can get them like this:

T-Sroof-TexturedGlass.jpg

(423.25 KiB) Downloaded 116 times

https://www.tesla.com/solarroof

[ThreeFlangedJavis]

Nice!

I was just thinking about a dystopian fiction idea. I am not saying this is going to happen. So, what is the payback on the solar?

Your dystopian idea made it sound like you really believed people had to cut down their trees and install servos to make the panels track the sun across the sky, but I'll leave it alone. I don't have any numbers on the payback, and it's going to vary pretty dramatically from case to case regardless. I had some family members install panels on their roof a few years back and it's a net savings for them. They're mostly self sufficient in the summer and go back on the grid in the winter. This is in Connecticut which isn't as rainy as the U.K. but isn't as sunny as Arizona either.

Do US power companies allow grid-tie inverters? Not only could you mitigate the costs, you could make a profit in summer.

[ThreeFlangedJavis]

It's the mirror image of the "real communism has never been tried" crowd on the left. Neither deals with the reality that all governments intervene in the economy and no economy can be planned completely. They're both aiming towards abstract systems (a world without government spending or a world where people love and share freely) and see anything that looks like a deviation from the Utopian dream as Bad, no matter whether it improves on the current situation or not.

Communism never failed the people, the people failed communism. This is actually true. Communism is incompatible with people, which is why communist states end up having to get rid of the people.

[jet_lagg]

Do US power companies allow grid-tie inverters? Not only could you mitigate the costs, you could make a profit in summer.

Most states allow it. I'm not sure what kind of money you'd be looking at, but it would be kind of neat to be getting a check in the mail instead of a bill. Even if it was peanuts.

[Sunder]

Yes, this is something I don't get about a lot of conservatives and libertarians, they're always talking about a fictional world where no government subsidies exist and pretending that different kinds of government subsidies are the slippery slope towards communism.

Some people honestly believe that oil and coal get by without any government aid and that renewables receiving subsidies is proof that they can't fairly compete.

Apparently the fair thing to do is to give fossil fuels subsidies out the ass and make clean competitors fight with both hands behind their back.

[jet_lagg]

Googling the Tesla tiles it looks like they're roughly 200% of the cost of regular panels and operate at 75% the efficiency. I guess if you really, really hate the looks of traditional panels? Personally I think they give a house that nice green vibe.

[Bhurzum]

(Dank's GF)

[Basement]

Yes, this is something I don't get about a lot of conservatives and libertarians, they're always talking about a fictional world where no government subsidies exist

Yes - the fictional world where no government subsidies exist should be the goal. Get rid of the subsidies for fossil fuel - then you'll get your alternative energy. The price of gas SHOULD go up! Less government, not more - that's the answer!

[John D]

Yes, this is something I don't get about a lot of conservatives and libertarians, they're always talking about a fictional world where no government subsidies exist

Yes - the fictional world where no government subsidies exist should be the goal. Get rid of the subsidies for fossil fuel - then you'll get your alternative energy. The price of gas SHOULD go up! Less government, not more - that's the answer!

Yeap... and the new Republican tax bill actually does get rid of some of the oil and gas tax breaks. Sounds good to me.

[shoutinghorse]

I'm always up for a conspiracy theory but ... :shock:

https://i.imgur.com/mudxK0R.png

[John D]

I say we build a shit ton of windmills so we can slaughter millions of birds! A tiny fraction of our electrical power comes from windmills and we are already killing hundreds of thousands of the little blighters.

This is a graph of the average number of fucks historically given about birds by conservatives:

https://i.stack.imgur.com/7BQTA.png

Until wind energy comes up.

Maybe they're jealous that they didn't get to blast them outta the sky first ???

Indeed... one of the biggest conservation groups that has done a ton of work to maintain wetland space is Ducks Unlimited. Ever hear of them?

So.. yeah... demonstrably false.

http://www.ducks.org/conservation

[Really?]

I'm always up for a conspiracy theory but ... :shock:

https://i.imgur.com/mudxK0R.png

Cut it out with that shit. The mainstream media that works closely with those guys and lets them edit their stories before publication already blamed Alex Jones for that fake news.

[jugheadnaut]

In general, I am not in favor of incentives and the idea that the government should manipulate the energy economy.

If you leave that to the market alone, they will keep selling fossil fuels if they have to kill the last bird in the last tarpit before they turn to alternative energy.

Only in a fairyland market where the law of supply and demand demand has been repealed. In the real world, as the reserves of fossil fuel decline, the supply curve will shift to higher prices. Alternative energy sources will become a much more attractive proposition, and there will be no shortage of profit-seekers investing in and entering this market.

[CaptainFluffyBunny]

(Dank's GF)

Is this still the charge of teaching his pug a Nazi salute?

[free thoughtpolice]

Yes, this is something I don't get about a lot of conservatives and libertarians, they're always talking about a fictional world where no government subsidies exist

Yes - the fictional world where no government subsidies exist should be the goal. Get rid of the subsidies for fossil fuel - then you'll get your alternative energy. The price of gas SHOULD go up! Less government, not more - that's the answer!

Yeap... and the new Republican tax bill actually does get rid of some of the oil and gas tax breaks. Sounds good to me.

Your man Trump is right out there taking away those subsidies:
https://www.vox.com/energy-and-environm ... y-handouts

[free thoughtpolice]

I'm always up for a conspiracy theory but ... :shock:

https://i.imgur.com/mudxK0R.png

Yum. Chicken pizza.

[shoutinghorse]

Jesus fucking H Christ, is there anything this self entitled cunt of a woman doesn't fucking whine about? .. Notice it didn't take long for one of her white knights to blame it all on 'sexism'

[Bhurzum]

Is this still the charge of teaching his pug a Nazi salute?

Yup.

[John D]

Yes - the fictional world where no government subsidies exist should be the goal. Get rid of the subsidies for fossil fuel - then you'll get your alternative energy. The price of gas SHOULD go up! Less government, not more - that's the answer!

Yeap... and the new Republican tax bill actually does get rid of some of the oil and gas tax breaks. Sounds good to me.

Your man Trump is right out there taking away those subsidies:
https://www.vox.com/energy-and-environm ... y-handouts

I voted for that idiot Johnson... so Trump is not "mine". I do happen to think he is better than Hillary would have been... I am not happy about handouts to industry. When did I ever say I was?

In general, I find government subsidies to be a bad idea. I am also in favor of small government in general.