In 2017 Idiocracy is a Documentary

[Hunt]

The difference is that Hitchens didn't conduct himself as a mini-politician. He was actually a journalist who valued the truth. He wasn't infallible, of course, but that was his motivation. Unfortunately, Americans in particular (including PZ, Watson, etc.) are prone to conducting themselves as diminutive politicians the moment they gain any notoriety at all, with all the dishonestly, propaganda, etc. inherent in the position. To me, that is the clearest distinction between people like PZ and Hitchens. They were categorically different.

[John D]

So.... first I gotta say "FUCK GOOGLE"!

I will have to find another search engine to use regularly. I have been concerned about my search results lately and the Rubin report interview with the dood they fired had me even more concerned.

But... for me personally... the killer experience happened today.

I got a Facebook feed of an article from a site I follow called "The Federalist Papers Project". They are a site with some opinion writing on constitutional topics. They are decidedly right leaning, but they have some interesting opinions. The article I was looking for is posted below and has to do with gay wedding cakes... if a wedding cake baker can refuse to bake a cake for a gay wedding. Just for the record, I don't think the government should compel a private baker to make a wedding cake. I think this is drawing the line too far toward restrictions of free expression.

The guys at The Federalist Papers Project agree with me.

So.... I went on the Google machine to find the homepage of "The Federalist Papers Project."

First - I typed in "Federalist Papers Project" - This resulted in the first four Google page results that only had articles calling the Federalist Papers Project a biased evil news source. There were zero results pointing me to their actual site or their articles. All the results were left leaning news sources that were critical of the site I was looking for.

Next I searched "The Federalist Papers Project Homepage" - This also provided pages of results with no actual link to their homepage.... all criticisms.

Finally I searched "the federalist papers project Breaking: DOJ decides in case of baker" which is most of the title of the article. This finally resulted in the result I was looking for.

So... my conclusion is that Google is intentionally (or through some shit algorithm) giving me results that are 100% counter to what I want. They are becoming useless to me. WTF! Google must know me search history. They must know what I want by now and yet they intentionally send me to the wrong places.

Anyway... and finally... below is the article on wedding cakes. I am reminded once again that I am glad Hillary was not elected.

http://thefederalistpapers.org/us/break ... dding-cake

[MarcusAu]

I never understood how they determined if a cake was gay or not.

With other confectionery it's obvious - for example eclairs spurt their creamy filling everywhere as soon as mastication is attempted (and sometimes sooner), and they are not complete unless a delicious chocolate covering has been applied.

[John D]

I never understood how they determined if a cake was gay or not.

With other confectionery it's obvious - for example eclairs spurt their creamy filling everywhere as soon as mastication is attempted (and sometimes sooner), and they are not complete unless a delicious chocolate covering has been applied.

Crystal-Romance-Gay-Wedding-Cake-Topper.jpg

(265.05 KiB) Downloaded 106 times

[John D]

These guys apparently have Dachshunds.

il_340x270.1055561348_b6nh.jpg

(13.44 KiB) Downloaded 95 times

[John D]

Sesame Street too!

berternie.jpg

(339.17 KiB) Downloaded 100 times

[MarcusAu]

on that note....

[John D]

Okay... maybe this is enough... but some of these are really funny.

images.jpg

(7 KiB) Downloaded 106 times

[gurugeorge]

So.... first I gotta say "FUCK GOOGLE"!

Both Bing and DuckDuckGo are good alternatives. Bing actually gives better search results a lot of the time and DuckDuckGo, while a bit less powerful as a search engine, is good enough for everyday use, and is privacy oriented.

It's not like the days when Google was clearly much better than AltaVista.

[John D]

Brokeback Mountain.

rustic-cake-topper-same-sex-men-wedding-cake.jpg

(39.13 KiB) Downloaded 94 times

[MarcusAu]

Well to attempt a tangential...

The notion that people should be free to hold their own ideas about how they conduct their business and who they do business with (ie freedom of association, and freedom of speech) seems fairly cut and dried. The only issue is that in the current environment there seems to be no end of people willing to organise boycotts or start online campaigns which can deprive people of their livelihood (or contra-wise provide them with one - see patreon, kickstarter and the Sarkessian / Rebel Media business model).

Of course this cuts both ways - PZ, Becky et al should be just as free to announce their opinions (no matter how derivative / unoriginal, offensive or hypocritical they are).

In both cases, I'm actually sort of grateful. Because it saves time and effort if someone can just be honest about their opinions and are free to demonstrate what sort of person they are.

[John D]

People who refuse to bake cakes for gay weddings also make money from the deal.... so I guess everyone is happy.

A fund set up for Aaron and Melissa Klein, the owners of Sweet Cakes by Melissa, had raised $372,000 by Friday afternoon. The couple shut down the Gresham bakery in 2013 amid backlash over their decision not to bake a wedding cake for a lesbian couple because, they said, it was against their Christian beliefs.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/ba ... ns-n394066

[Really?]

In her new book, Hillary really lets loose on Vladimir Putin. Not only did he steal the election from her, but...and get this...he is a manspreader.

President Obama once compared Vladimir Putin to a ‘bored kid at the back of the classroom.' ‘He's got that kind of slouch,' Obama said. When I sat with Putin in meetings, he looked more like one of those guys on the subway who imperiously spreads their legs wide, encroaching on everyone else's space, as if to say ‘I take what I want' and ‘I have so little respect for you that I'm going to act as if I'm at home lounging in my bathrobe.' They call it ‘manspreading.' That was Putin.

Our relationship has been sour for a long time," she wrote. "Putin doesn't respect women and despises anyone who stands up to him, so I'm a double problem. After I criticized one of his policies, he told the press ‘It's better not to argue with women,' but went on to call me weak. ‘Maybe weakness is not the worst quality for a woman,' he joked. Hilarious.

[MarcusAu]

I understand that acts of homosexual sex are proscribed by christian religious beliefs.

But I'm less sure that homosexual marriage is explicitly stated as forbidden.

And if the latter causes less of the former would christians then change their mind?

[Phil_Giordana_FCD]

The RCC used to condone mariage between two men. Mostly monks or crusaders. There is absolutely nothing in the bible that forbids it. That I can think of.

[John D]

The RCC used to condone mariage between two men. Mostly monks or crusaders. There is absolutely nothing in the bible that forbids it. That I can think of.

There are a number of verses in both the old and new testament that are clear about men having sex with men. Of course, there is a bunch of shit in the Bible that people now ignore. My only claim is that a fair reading of the Bible indicates gay sex is verboten.

It is also clear throughout the Bible that men only marry women.

and... as usual... people can interpret the Bible in many ways.... even Crusaders can find loopholes when they have no access to sex from women.

http://www.mlive.com/news/kalamazoo/ind ... osexu.html

[John D]

In her new book, Hillary really lets loose on Vladimir Putin. Not only did he steal the election from her, but...and get this...he is a manspreader.

Jesus Christ... Hillary is the worst book reader ever! Seriously.... I could barely listen to the two minutes provided here. Imagine trying to listen to this on a long drive.... you would fall asleep and crash. She can't even put in dramatic emphasis. Basic 5th grade shit Hillary. You are supposed to change your tone when something interesting happens to add some emphasis. Also... there are these sections of words called syllables... they each get a different emphasis.... syllables bitch... use them!

[MarcusAu]

John - to make things absolutely explicit...(so to speak)...

Do you think that the christian (or muslim for that matter) should be defended in their right to refuse service based on principles of freedom of association / speech / other ?

Or do you think their rights should be defended because you have some sympathy for their viewpoints?

nb I'm not sure that I've thought through all the cases in which a business should be forced to provide service / goods to a customer. It sounds like the sort of thing that libertarians have been discussing for decades though.

[John D]

John - to make things absolutely explicit...(so to speak)...

Do you think that the christian (or muslim for that matter) should be defended in their right to refuse service based on principles of freedom of association / speech / other ?

Or do you think their rights should be defended because you have some sympathy for their viewpoints?

nb I'm not sure that I've thought through all the cases in which a business should be forced to provide service / goods to a customer. It sounds like the sort of thing that libertarians have been discussing for decades though.

This is not a simple topic. While I am generally opposed to the idea of "protected classes" of people, I think that these protection are needed. Take the topic of historically racist real estate agents and sales. The Detroit area was over run with racists in the 60s and 70s that steered blacks out of certain areas. The problem still exists to a lesser extent today. This kind of thing is so damaging to society and black people that government intervention is 100% appropriate. This is why I was clearly a leftist in the 70s and 80s. We needed the government to intrude and over-ride peoples freedoms in pursuit of racial fairness.

Where we draw that line is now the question. If gays suffered a great injustice at the hands of retailers I would be in support of the government using its heavy hand to change the behavior of individuals and businesses. I just don't see that the damage to gays over wedding cakes overshadows the rights of an individual to promote their business a certain way. I tend to think that a wedding cake is a direct artistic expression to a large extent. I think it would be equally unfair to force a baker to make a cake with a swastika on it. Someone should have the freedom to refuse this. For sure, the cake topic is right on the grey line here.

The nature of the business makes a difference. A grocer should not be allowed to refuse gays in my opinion (unless the gays came into the store dressed in g-strings and leather straps). But, I really don't see any businesses refusing to take money from gays or provide services in general (other than the cake bakers and other small exceptions). Hell... I suspect most landlords are happy when a professional gay couple wants an apartment. The perception is that they will keep it neat and clean and not wreck shit. (Lesbians may be differently perceived however... haha). If it could be shown that there was regular discrimination I would be in favor of the government stepping in with these cases.

The government should stay out of people's business as much as possible in my opinion. Unfortunately, the left thinks the government can fix everything. Ah... again I am reminded of how happy I am that Hillary is not the president.

[Phil_Giordana_FCD]

The RCC used to condone mariage between two men. Mostly monks or crusaders. There is absolutely nothing in the bible that forbids it. That I can think of.

There are a number of verses in both the old and new testament that are clear about men having sex with men. Of course, there is a bunch of shit in the Bible that people now ignore. My only claim is that a fair reading of the Bible indicates gay sex is verboten.

It is also clear throughout the Bible that men only marry women.

and... as usual... people can interpret the Bible in many ways.... even Crusaders can find loopholes when they have no access to sex from women.

http://www.mlive.com/news/kalamazoo/ind ... osexu.html

We were discussing marriage, not sex.

You pervert!

[d4m10n]

In her new book, Hillary really lets loose on Vladimir Putin. Not only did he steal the election from her, but...and get this...he is a manspreader.

Good to see HRC helping to unite the left around the issues that really matter today.

[Lsuoma]

Sesame Street too!

berternie.jpg

[free thoughtpolice]

on that note....

Even more surprising, John Wayne was a ftm trans, deadname Marion Morrison.

[shoutinghorse]

The whores dressing her are showing too much flesh .. Now where's my bag of gravel? :twisted:

[John D]

Sesame Street too!

berternie.jpg

I saw this show on Broadway with the original cast. Fantastic!

[BoxNDox]

Yeah, I'm cruisin' for a bruisin' (ban), too:

https://disqus.com/home/discussion/frie ... 3507320564

But I want to be a pansexual forest sprite every day!

[Matt Cavanaugh]

The other night I had a sudden change of opinion on the gay wedding cake thing. While a baker should not be permitted to deny regular service to a person because of their sexual orientation, I now think that decorating a wedding cake with gay stuff is a form of participation or active support of gay marriage, and should not be compelled. Similarly, a butcher should not be compelled to make an animal suffer during slaughter, because a moslem client demands halal meat.

My position is still tentative and I'm open to persuasion.

[Matt Cavanaugh]

Yeah, I'm cruisin' for a bruisin' (ban), too:

https://disqus.com/home/discussion/frie ... 3507320564

But I want to be a pansexual forest sprite every day!

FYI, you can have surgery to get gossamer wings installed, but they won't be functional.

[gurugeorge]

The other night I had a sudden change of opinion on the gay wedding cake thing. While a baker should not be permitted to deny regular service to a person because of their sexual orientation, I now think that decorating a wedding cake with gay stuff is a form of participation or active support of gay marriage, and should not be compelled. Similarly, a butcher should not be compelled to make an animal suffer during slaughter, because a moslem client demands halal meat.

My position is still tentative and I'm open to persuasion.

This only works if opposition to gay marriage is an opinion people get to have, and not a sign of Nazism.

[Sunder]

H/t a certain citrus plantation, some people are starting to suss out Wu's con job:

Is kiwi a citrus fruit now?

No, I made a leap of intuition that turned out to be wrong.

[Matt Cavanaugh]

No surprise, Hemant's Hordelings are insisting that atheism be taught in public schools:

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyat ... a-unicorn/

(Similar sentiments also expressed on Coyne's recent posts.)

[Sunder]

Meant to mention this when there was a discussion of Hitchens a few pages back. Much as I like the man, it's clear his brazen attitude had very negative and long-lasting effects on organized A/S. Even as he was recast as a villain after his death, his influence on people like Peez was still obvious. You could say they threw out the baby and kept the bathwater to stew in.

Meanwhile the remaining living Horsemen are all polite to a fault and hard to imagine doing something so crass as publicly posting fantasies about stabbing priests in the street.

Are you blaming Hitchens' sharp, withering critique of ideas for the base, misanthropic vitriol of worms like PZ? Peez' is a miserable, hateful, resentful shit and has been since childhood.

Blame's a strong word. But Hitch clearly gave A/S (not just Peez) the strong signal that being righteously indignant is a fair way to present oneself. And this effect persisted long after Hitch's own popularity in the new Social Justice A/S faded.

And much as you can claim Peez was always a fat sack of crap, his keyboard commando persona probably isn't something he's had all his life simply because he hasn't had the internet or a Horde all his life. Peez absent the internet is a meek little turd nursing a core of impotent rage. And in an A/S where his behavior was looked down on from the start it's very possible he wouldn't have developed as he had.

[Shatterface]

Yeah, I'm cruisin' for a bruisin' (ban), too:

https://disqus.com/home/discussion/frie ... 3507320564

But I want to be a pansexual forest sprite every day!

FYI, you can have surgery to get gossamer wings installed, but they won't be functional.

Shit. I'd been saving up for that op.

[Shatterface]

The whores dressing her are showing too much flesh .. Now where's my bag of gravel? :twisted:

Is FGM an option?

[Sunder]

I don't think the ideal situation would be one in which A/S tried to enforce false civility, but rather one in which people who had proved their chops could be incendiary and others who were just mental chumps putting on a big boy act were told to sit down, shut up, and let the grownups talk.

[ConcentratedH2O, OM]

Alright, who's "Dauphni"? Coz no way this ain't a Poe...

https://preview.ibb.co/mpHk1v/Screen_Sh ... _51_PM.png

https://preview.ibb.co/ecxPuF/Screen_Sh ... _22_PM.png

All credit to Meyers here, who makes a good effort of taking this seriously instead of running away screaming "I used to be a contender! Christopher Hitchens once stubbed out a cigarette on my arm, you know! That's how close we were!":

https://preview.ibb.co/jOxeTa/Screen_Sh ... _13_PM.png

[Sunder]

Peezy steps right into the trap laid out for him. You don't go and insinuate that "trans" is something some future society might have simply thought up rather than an innate property of some humans for all time. It would be all too easy to spin that as a TERFy statement.

[shoutinghorse]

Brutally murder an off duty squaddie in cold blood, go to jail for life, knock your teeth out fighting screws, claim £100,000 in damages off the taxpayer. This is England.

[feathers]

Is FGM an option?

Voiding the warranty, yes.

[John D]

So.. okay... this is childish as fuck. But, I just keep laughing and laughing.

[Shatterface]

Loved the film version of The Mist but what the absolute fuck have Netflix done with their TV version?

Twenty minutes in and I have already sat through some non-binary lecturing about white male privilege and now his gag-gag has been roofied by jocks.

I hope the entire cast get raped by spider-clowns but I'm not sticking around to see.

[Shatterface]

Fag-hag. But autocorrect is right, gag-gag is twice as funny.

[Bhurzum]

Brutally murder an off duty squaddie in cold blood, go to jail for life, knock your teeth out fighting screws, claim £100,000 in damages off the taxpayer. This is England.

[weet]https://twitter.com/WestmonsterUK/statu ... 78563[weet]

Didn't one of that pair get a lifting-bar across the snout a year ago? Or was that some other paedo worshipping, verminous, sub-human shit stain? It's hard to keep track of the "religion of peace" and it's screwy followers. Far easier and safer to just cull 'em all off (radicals, moderates, women, children, the fucking lot), nuke the middle East and listen carefully for dissenters at home.

One word of complaint, one mild grumble and it's an early morning "standard issue" alarm call for anyone who objects.

It's called progress, people.

Damn! I'd make a first-class Emperor.

[screwtape]

Blame's a strong word. But Hitch clearly gave A/S (not just Peez) the strong signal that being righteously indignant is a fair way to present oneself. And this effect persisted long after Hitch's own popularity in the new Social Justice A/S faded.

One thing we don't know is how Hitchens would have reacted to the flowering of social justice, grievance feminism, trans issues, Trump, alt-right and antifa. We can make some good guesses, but he might have surprised us with his famously idiosyncratic opinions. One thing I am quite sure of is that he would have popped the bubbles of many self-declared important people. I say popped, but it would probably involve lacerations of the kind that would leave, say, La Sarkeesian's self-worth looking like a string vest. And the muddled, woolly, resentments of Myers would dissolve like birdshit under a pressure washer.

[Shatterface]

[feathers]

I would almost certainly avoid a series mimicking what used to be a single film with a very simple premise. Or at least wonder how on earth they could spin out 90-120 minutes to 200+.

But even then, I would feel betrayed if a horror/SF-theme gets dateraped into a pile of sanctimonious preaching.

On the upside, this will put off even more people.

[jet_lagg]

Even with his Marxist leanings I can't imagine Hitch having anything good to say about antifa. He was one of the few to criticize Muslims as a whole (not just "fringe" elements) for rioting in the wake of the Dutch cartoons depicting Muhammad. And he ran afoul of the grievance-mongering feminists while he was still alive, writing about women not being funny. Watch his response video to the criticism if you're ever feeling down and need a laugh.

[Steersman]

Richard Carrier appears to be trying to edge himself up to the cliff of being Mr. Middle Ground Guy.

http://archive.is/IRVdD

It is a word vomit reminiscent of a far less logically consistent Steersman circa 2014.

This guy has some serious rose colored glasses on when he reflects about what he has engaged in. It is understandable. No one wants to see themselves as the bad guy.

So, I've improved since then? ;-) Or is Carrier less consistent than I've ever been?

But, yeah, he sure still does look to have some serious blinders and virtually opaque "rose-coloured glasses". Although I'll concede he makes a number of reasonable points - stopped clocks, and all that. But somewhat apropos of which, a couple of posts that kind of portray him as "the bad guy", even if he is maybe in the midst of having a Road-to-Damascus revelation:

His The New Atheism+ post, and a Yeti's Roar post Dr. Richard Carrier, PhD – A creepy, dishonest hypocrite which I wasn't and am still not sure is entirely fair.

[CommanderTuvok]

The accusation that Putin is a "manspreader"?

I initially thought that was a reference to the number of Putin's political rivals who end up spreading the floors of pavements and streets....

But no, it is something far more serious - Putin extending the gap between his thighs. Scandalous!

[Sunder]

Is FGM an option?

Barbie has no genitals. I guess Linda Sarsour must have taken them away.

[deLurch]

So, I've improved since then? ;-) Or is Carrier less consistent than I've ever been?

Yes, you have greatly improved. Instead of splurging all over the page, you make your one or two points in a far more concise manner. It makes your words far more worth reading. As far as Carrier's writings go, I can't really give you an honest review as it if he is less consistent now or not. I never really found him worth reading before, and slogging through a 5,500 word post of his self justification was not an easy read.

I was initially curious to see if he was showing some signs of enforced enlightenment. Or if he was the same shit stain he has always been. At least a few statements of his are demonstrably false. And some of his statements are even self contradicted in his own essay. But he is such a drag to read through, and means so little now, I just don't have the spoons to lay it all out.

[deLurch]

@Steersman, it also greatly helps that you vary the subject matter.

[deLurch]

Several horses are alive today due to your valiant efforts at chance.

[Barbie's Boyfriend]

The other night I had a sudden change of opinion on the gay wedding cake thing. While a baker should not be permitted to deny regular service to a person because of their sexual orientation, I now think that decorating a wedding cake with gay stuff is a form of participation or active support of gay marriage, and should not be compelled. Similarly, a butcher should not be compelled to make an animal suffer during slaughter, because a moslem client demands halal meat.

My position is still tentative and I'm open to persuasion.

Muslim cab drivers in Minneapolis once refused to drive anybody with alcohol in their luggage. Are you ok with that ?

PS- The taxi commission said that since it is not illegal to possess alcohol, they had to drive these people, or lose their licenses. This happened in 2002 or so

[Steersman]

Several horses are alive today due to your valiant efforts at [change].

:-) Wouldn't want to get on the wrong side of Matt ...

But have made an effort to be a bit more concise, in large part due to various quite justified criticisms here and about - Jadehawk's "prolix" shot for example. But reminds me of an aphorism I read recently by one Marcia Davenport: "All the great poets died young. Fiction is the art of middle age. And essays are the art of old age." And part of the art of essays seems to reside in being focused and concise.

As for Carrier, I sure didn't have the spoons to more than skim his post which sure looked to be light on self-awareness, and long on self-justification and rationalization. I left a brief comment there which apparently hasn't seen the light of day - guess I'm not among his "Select Persons". Which suggests he's still not ready to consider any perspectives outside of his blinders:

You do make some reasonable points. And you're to be commended for what looks to be something rather akin to a Road-to-Damascus conversion.

However, it still looks like you’re rather some distance from actually seeing the light – so to speak. For instance, you rather categorically insist that all “Syrian refugees” are innocent, and suggest that there isn’t manifest justification for “islamophobia”.

[rayshul]

The other night I had a sudden change of opinion on the gay wedding cake thing. While a baker should not be permitted to deny regular service to a person because of their sexual orientation, I now think that decorating a wedding cake with gay stuff is a form of participation or active support of gay marriage, and should not be compelled. Similarly, a butcher should not be compelled to make an animal suffer during slaughter, because a moslem client demands halal meat.

My position is still tentative and I'm open to persuasion.

Agree. Everyone should be able to receive service. However, if I asked someone to paint me a picture of them getting raped by a dinosaur, they are within their rights to refuse me. You can't force someone to do something they don't want to do.

[free thoughtpolice]

Agree. Everyone should be able to receive service. However, if I asked someone to paint me a picture of them getting raped by a dinosaur, they are within their rights to refuse me. You can't force someone to do something they don't want to do.

That is a project I'd take! Who are them and what kind of dinosaur?

[Lsuoma]

Agree. Everyone should be able to receive service. However, if I asked someone to paint me a picture of them getting raped by a dinosaur, they are within their rights to refuse me. You can't force someone to do something they don't want to do.

That is a project I'd take! Who are them and what kind of dinosaur?

http://i.imgur.com/S7zCeIe.gif

[Easy J]

Hey Fash-Tits, how's the cat doing?

[Easy J]

I've seen that GIF hundreds of times by now & only just noticed that the dinosaur has mammalian genitals. Every day is an adventure.