If thou gazest long into the Pit, the Pit will also gaze into thee

rayshul wrote:Steers. I'm not playing, 'cos it's fucken dumb.

The FOES list is your friend and will reduce your stress level ;)

feathers wrote:

rayshul wrote:I did not know the reason for the Eid Festival but that's some pretty primitive shit too, never mind the other slaughtering. There's giving yourself up to save the world shit, I get the Jesus martyrdom stuff, but willingness to kill your son is some fucked up shit.

YHWH once tried that too, but pulled out with 'LOL just testing' before things got greasy.

The guy willing to sacrifice his son to God there later lent his name to the major three branches of world religions.

Eid al-Adha is actually about the same story of Abraham and God testing him...The Qu'ran is a fanfiction of the Bible, didn't you guys know that?

According to the Old Testament story, Ceiling Cat asked Abraham to sacrifice his son precisely to test how willing he was to obey his commands. In islam the celebration is all about submitting to god. Islam is ALL about submission. The good part of Eid is that part of the meat of the slaughtered animals should go the poor (of course, only the muslim ones, and the "should" is more of a guidelines than a strict rule anyway). The bad part is that it's all about giving up your individuality for submission.

Anyway the story in the Bible was probably about putting an end to human sacrifice of children by suggesting that god preferred animals instead. Human sacrifice, especially of children was widespread in the Middle East before Judaism. Actually it was widespread everywhere: the Greeks did it, the Phoenicians did it (along with the Carthaginians, who lived in a Phoenician colony), and in the Americas pretty much all civilizations did it.

Abrahamitic religions at least curbed that. Originally the Jews did it not out of superior moral skills but out of the practical concerns of a small and dwindling population, then it became part of their traditions as a way to feel superior to their child-sacrificing neighbors.

Those are the main sources for moral changes: practical concerns and a sense of superiority. "Inner moral superiority" of a society or a community/sub-culture is a useful myth used by a society to justify its choices and rules. Morality is about the needs of a changing society, technological improvement making certain things possible, scientific improvement making some conclusions possible, and social changes inspiring thinkers who wish to show off how good they are at thinking.

The problem with religions isn't that they're "evil", it's that they stifle changes by appealing to the Tradition as part of the Authority part of morality, which is why they "stay behind" when things change (still prescribing strict dietary laws when we've figured out what caused the problems associated with eating or raising certain animals, for example, or ranting and raving about homosexuality when there's seven billion people around and we don't need to "go forth and multiply", or when slavery has been abolished in many countries and many homosexual relationships are between consensual, self-supporting adults).

Human empathy is severely limited and tied to kin selection/tribalism. "Inner goodness" only gets you so far, religions are about trying to channel social rules into absolutes and to create a sense of kin between all members of the "community", but they only create tribalism on a larger scale, and the out-group suffers even more. It's incredibly hard to get people to care about the troubles of those who aren't part of their community, especially if those people seem threatening in any way, shape or form.

Compromises are possible but require de-emphasizing strong communitiarian ties and increasing a focus on individuality. That's why the WEIRD societies were able to transcend pure tribalism (to a certain degree, and never completely) and create societies bound together by the rule of law or by institutions that didn't privilege too much in favor of a single community: they privileged individuals over groups. Without individualism all you get are either different tribes trying to fight off one another or a deeply authoritarian regime keeping the lid on inter-communitarian tensions in order to make sure that everyone pays their taxes and serves the authorities.

Individualism makes it possible for different individuals to find a compromise by simply stopping caring about their tribe and caring more about their personal economic and social standing. Liberal democracy is based on individualism. The struggle for human rights is based on individualism.

The big mistake of the Po-Mo left is to forget that progressivism is strictly tied to individualism, and to believe that identity politics are compatible with increased empathy and a more just society, instead of simply creating wars of some groups against other groups or leading to an authoritarian regime which keeps the peace by repressing tribal fights through the careful application of force to troublemakers.

Or better yet: identity politics is a mistake only if your goal actually is social harmony within a liberal democratic society. If you prefer an authoritarian communist society, where the out-group are "wrongthinkers", identity politics is a good wedge to tear down the liberal democratic frame by accusing all who disagree of being bigoted. Anarcho-communists who embrace the SocJus are only useful idiots to those who don't want reforms but an authoritarian SocJus regime. Then again anarchists are always pawns.

Anyway I think that the SocJus project is going to fail. They've been too obvious, too loud too soon, and have gambled way too much on making people feel guilty. The bad news is that the liberal democratic consensus has been seriously damaged by their antics and old right-wing authoritarian ideas are coming back in fashion.

HoneyWagon wrote:

rayshul wrote:Steers. I'm not playing, 'cos it's fucken dumb.

The FOES list is your friend and will reduce your stress level ;)

Naw, I don't mind Steers. I foe few.

My wife and I were in the US and Canada this summer, visiting family and friends in Virginia, Indiana, Ohio, Quebec, Pennsylvania, and Virginia again, in that order. I also went to DC a few times, to get documentation for new China visas and to apply for them.

Coming back from the USA, we arrived at the in Guangzhou some time between 03:00 and 04:00 AM, Thursday August 24. That's when I found out I made a mistake the week before that, when I bought the hotel room and the train tickets online. We needed a hotel room for Wednesday night, and train tickets for Thursday afternoon. Instead of that, I accidentally bought a room for Tuesday night, and train tickets for Wednesday afternoon. We were one day too late for the room, and for the train. No refunds! Then I bought train tickets for Thursday, but we missed the train because we went to the wrong station.

After we missed the train on Thursday, all the seats for Thursday and Friday were sold out, so I bought a room online for Thursday night. Then the taxi driver took us to the wrong hotel.

I think you're well within reach of Kim's firecrackers, Jim.

@jimhabegger, glad to hear that you are enjoying traveling around. Mishaps happen.

Kirbmarc wrote:The Qu'ran is a fanfiction of the Bible

That's actually a good way to conceive of the Abrahamic religions in their entirety - ripping yarns that keep getting retconned, like superhero comics.

"You thought it happened like that? No, actually it happened like this."

You're wrong, I'm sure it happened thus.

Richard Anderson has passed away:

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/31/arts ... ml?mcubz=0

MarcusAu wrote:Richard Anderson has passed away:

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/31/arts ... ml?mcubz=0

I'm sure we can rebuild him. We have the technology. We can make him better,
stronger,
faster.

katamari Damassi wrote:BEHOLD! A Salon article against identity politics.

http://www.salon.com/2017/09/02/time

Was going to watch the video, until I noticed it was Tom Cruise.

feathers wrote:I think you're well within reach of Kim's firecrackers, Jim.

Funny, I hadn't thought of that!

deLurch wrote:@jimhabegger, glad to hear that you are enjoying traveling around. Mishaps happen.

We'll, we did have some wonderful times, but I also went through a lot of agony, and spent a lot of money, all through the summer, getting those documents for our visas.

free thoughtpolice wrote:

katamari Damassi wrote:BEHOLD! A Salon article against identity politics.

http://www.salon.com/2017/09/02/time

Tom Cruise has an ugly bruise on his arm. He needs to stop doing his own stunts.

goddamnit

free thoughtpolice wrote:

katamari Damassi wrote:BEHOLD! A Salon article against identity politics.

http://www.salon.com/2017/09/02/time

Tom Cruise has an ugly bruise on his arm. He needs to stop doing his own stunts.

Perhaps he got beaten up by David Miscavige.

Mad as a bucket of frogs :think:

rayshul wrote:I did not know the reason for the Eid Festival but that's some pretty primitive shit too, never mind the other slaughtering. There's giving yourself up to save the world shit, I get the Jesus martyrdom stuff, but willingness to kill your son is some fucked up shit.

The canaanites, who the israelites came out of, likely did practice child sacrifice. The Abraham & Isaac story allegorizes the shift to animal sacrifice. cf. Moloch.

feathers wrote:

MarcusAu wrote:Richard Anderson has passed away:

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/31/arts ... ml?mcubz=0

I'm sure we can rebuild him. We have the technology. We can make him better,
stronger,
faster.

The King. Of. Spain!

Coyne on a federally-funded program to teach the Religion of Peace to public school students:

https://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.co ... nt-1525258

Dude, you got some balls:

https://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.co ... nt-1525258

This ' you don't know anything about being X if you aren't X' is a nasty, dangerous piece of SJW illogic that kills all debate.

Is it possible to teach about religion(s) in a historical context without someone becoming offended?

Wouldn't this amount to taking an agnostic position (at best) for all the supernatural elements?

The only acceptable compromise I can see is for all religious education to be done outside of state sponsored schools.

And a brilliant, point-by-point takedown of that nut job, Foxgloves', nonsense:

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/transparen ... 3500154848

I'd never have the spoons to sift through al that nonsense.

Matt Cavanaugh wrote:And a brilliant, point-by-point takedown of that nut job, Foxgloves', nonsense:

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/transparen ... 3500154848

I'd never have the spoons to sift through al that nonsense.

If you enjoy destroying foxgloves, you could use the opportunity to be Withering in your critique.

I'm told the second row of leaves up from the base are the best for preparing foxglove tea in cases of the dropsy.

Steersman wrote: [..snip snip snip etc etc...]
Rather doubt Elyse is really cut out for the job.

Given her bizarre fascination for the rectum and what comes out of it, I'd have to take issue with that statement.

Jesus, Matt, you do enjoy slumming, don't you?

feathers wrote:

free thoughtpolice wrote:

katamari Damassi wrote:BEHOLD! A Salon article against identity politics.

http://www.salon.com/2017/09/02/time

Tom Cruise has an ugly bruise on his arm. He needs to stop doing his own stunts.

Perhaps he got beaten up by David Miscavige.

Would that be punching down?

Matt Cavanaugh wrote:And a brilliant, point-by-point takedown of that nut job, Foxgloves', nonsense:

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/transparen ... 3500154848

I'd never have the spoons to sift through al that nonsense.

John Pieret wrote:I only remember running across igotbanned once before, about a month and a half ago, when Pat was suffering from an infestation of Richard Sanderson and Matt Cavanaugh. They were going on about the alleged psychological damage that Zinnia Jones and Riley Dennis had inflicted on cishet males by suggesting that, maybe, they should at least be open to having intimate relations with trans women. Naturally, at first, Sanderson and Cavanaugh just made the accusations without citing where these evils were visited on the poor cishets. (Predictably, when the citations were pried out of them, it turned out that Zinnia had had a playful exchange with a cishet male about how he might get to like sex with a trans woman and Riley had posted a slightly loopy video where she went a little far by suggesting that a preference not to have sex with a trans woman was, in and of itself, prejudice.)

Only slightly and a little too far. No biggie. But I bet that Pieret would agree that when a Christian says that a preference to have sex with trans women is a sin and makes you morally inferior they're being bigoted.

"It's OK When We Do It" is strong among people commenting there.

screwtape wrote:Jesus, Matt, you do enjoy slumming, don't you?

Screen Shot 2017-09-04 at 1.18.09 PM.png

When I read most of Patheos, I begin to understand why so many idiots longed for a zombie apocalypse. Maybe it's already happened, instead of being after brains, they want privilege checks, I dunno. They really do need brains, though..

screwtape wrote:Jesus, Matt, you do enjoy slumming, don't you?

Screen Shot 2017-09-04 at 1.18.09 PM.png

Pat Green be like:

Reading between the lines, sounds like Pat Green is now engaged to a trans. Hey, Pat: if you want transcock rubbed over your face and shoved up your ass, goodonya, mate! Just don't tell me I should, too.

fafnir wrote:

feathers wrote: Perhaps he got beaten up by David Miscavige.

Would that be punching down?

Maybe. Would you like to tell us what happened to Fasolt?

MarcusAu wrote:Is it possible to teach about religion(s) in a historical context without someone becoming offended?

Wouldn't this amount to taking an agnostic position (at best) for all the supernatural elements?

The only acceptable compromise I can see is for all religious education to be done outside of state sponsored schools.

That's how it should work.

Tigzy wrote:

Steersman wrote: [..snip snip snip etc etc...]
Rather doubt Elyse is really cut out for the job.

Given her bizarre fascination for the rectum and what comes out of it, I'd have to take issue with that statement.

The long awaited sequel to Two Girls, One Cup: One Elyse, One Steersman

Ha ha ha. Even though I graduated high school, my parents are heterosexual, still alive, and still married, and I've never been called a dyke or a fag (two separate questions, mull over that for a moment), it's official*:


* h/t the Buzzfeed Institute of Higher Social Sciences Research.

https://www.buzzfeed.com/regajha/how-pr ... .qmmwED2Do

So, Trump wants to assign an uncredentialed ninccompoop as directory of NASA:

thinkprogress wrote:Bridenstine is a politician without any scientific credentials, unlike previous NASA chiefs, and for that reason his nomination has already been criticized by both Florida’s senators Marco Rubio (R) and Bill Nelson (D), Politico reports.

Now, which of these two gentlemen uttered the following objection?

mystery senator wrote:“I just think [his nomination] could be devastating for the space program.”

Yes, it's that bad.

screwtape wrote:

fafnir wrote:

feathers wrote: Perhaps he got beaten up by David Miscavige.

Would that be punching down?

Maybe. Would you like to tell us what happened to Fasolt?

He was a Nazi, what you gonna do?

Matt Cavanaugh wrote:Ha ha ha. Even though I graduated high school, my parents are heterosexual, still alive, and still married, and I've never been called a dyke or a fag (two separate questions, mull over that for a moment), it's official*:

adf2ddc7e59d7e26cad0a916466ebfee-14.jpg

* h/t the Buzzfeed Institute of Higher Social Sciences Research.

https://www.buzzfeed.com/regajha/how-pr ... .qmmwED2Do

Neither am I! The baboons have slandered me! :twisted:

Antifa and islam. smash the fash and allahu akbar comrade.
From ummah.com forum.

antifa and dawaah
It is clear that Islam is in favour of something, and not just against something. Islam is clearly in favour of obedience to the laws of our beloved Master, the illustrious Allah, lord of both worlds.

Still, I am personally not against making alliances with people who combat particular detestable political phenomena:

* antifa: against fascism, nazism, racism, and white supremacism

* antista/antigov: against overly powerful national states and governments trying to micromanage every aspect of people's life. Sometimes this also called libertarianism. There will indeed always be territorial/terror-torial leaders, but we certainly do not like their excessive power.

* anticorp/anticap: against corporations or brutal capitalism trying to take over the essence of life. There is a strong current favouring decentralized online markets instead, nicely out of reach of these enemies.

* antifiat: against the usury-infested banksters, trying to replace them and their evils, with cryptocurrencies.

There are quite a few atheists in these movements. Even though I quite reject atheism -- if nothing is assumed, then nothing can be concluded -- I still avoid emphasizing this particular dislike, because there is a "choose your battles" issue involved here. It is a similar problem with supporting highly-divisive views within Islam, dangerously pitting the one group of believers against the other. You can also count me out for those internecine conflicts.

Still, if the ulema/clergy pronounce interdicts that are provable from the Islamic scriptural base --the Quran and its interpretation/application in Sunnah -- against some of these things in particular, I will take that into account and ask people from the anti-x movement to repudiate the error, in absence of which I may end up repudiating them.

Antifa is not an Islamic movement, but they clearly specialize in attacking anti-Muslim political movements in the West. In that sense, they are certainly not useless.

Antifa are known to be violent, but they are understandably also distrustful of the monopoly on violence, i.e. the official government. I understand them, because there may indeed be no other way to achieve particular things. So, I cannot just condemn that. It is the same issue with particular Islamic movements which are also known to be occasionally violent. There is a serious aqeedah (political interest) problem attached to wholesale speaking ill about them. It is not because I mostly specialize in using other instruments than the blunt use of force, that I would agree to discourage other people who just happen to have other views on the subject. Still, in my opinion, they may want to leave the door open for negotiations with the adversary.

Antifa is an anti-x idea. Ultimately, it is only pro-x ideas that matter. Therefore, they are ripe for dawaa/conversion.

They just need to be convinced that Islam does not have the same treacherous and back-stabbing ways as Christianity, a religion which does not seek to bring justice, but mostly to justify injustices. Left-wing people in the West are very suspicious of religion, which is understandable given the history of Christianity, but I think that they could still overcome their distrust and notice that Islam is different, and that Islam could be the pro-x solution that they must be looking for.

fafnir wrote:

screwtape wrote:

fafnir wrote: Would that be punching down?

Maybe. Would you like to tell us what happened to Fasolt?

He was a Nazi, what you gonna do?

I didn't think 'punching down' ought to include the murder of a twin brother, but I'm always willing to learn. Possibly there are other values of 'down' that are beyond my basic math and geometry abilities. And if giants with the ability to morph into dragons are automatically Nazis, you might like to have a word with HBO since they probably don't need that kind of thing.

On the other hand, if you could burn up Tom Cruise with an exhalation, I wouldn't give much of a small, hard and unsatisfying shit about Fasolt...

fafnir wrote:

feathers wrote: Perhaps he got beaten up by David Miscavige.

Would that be punching down?

Punching Clear, perhaps?

Kirbmarc wrote:

MarcusAu wrote:Is it possible to teach about religion(s) in a historical context without someone becoming offended?

Wouldn't this amount to taking an agnostic position (at best) for all the supernatural elements?

The only acceptable compromise I can see is for all religious education to be done outside of state sponsored schools.

That's how it should work.

Take for example teaching about Henry VIII in history class. If you teach the struggle of protestants against catholics with no reference to anything supernatural then it would seem just like identarian politics, and because of that it could undermine someone's religious faith.

Unless it's pure indoctrination - I don't know how you could teach something even peripherally related to religion without it introducing at least some doubt (or causing the students to raise some questions) as to the doctrine they are supposed to believe.

feathers wrote:So, Trump wants to assign an uncredentialed ninccompoop as directory of NASA:

thinkprogress wrote:Bridenstine is a politician without any scientific credentials, unlike previous NASA chiefs, and for that reason his nomination has already been criticized by both Florida’s senators Marco Rubio (R) and Bill Nelson (D), Politico reports.

Now, which of these two gentlemen uttered the following objection?

mystery senator wrote:“I just think [his nomination] could be devastating for the space program.”

Yes, it's that bad.

I wasn't aware we still had a space agency. I assumed Elon Musk was handling it.

free thoughtpolice wrote:Antifa and islam. smash the fash and allahu akbar comrade.
From ummah.com forum.

They just need to be convinced that Islam does not have the same treacherous and back-stabbing ways as Christianity, a religion which does not seek to bring justice, but mostly to justify injustices. Left-wing people in the West are very suspicious of religion, which is understandable given the history of Christianity, but I think that they could still overcome their distrust and notice that Islam is different, and that Islam could be the pro-x solution that they must be looking for.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

The treachery and backstabbing in islam started with the fight for the successor to Mohammed himself! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Still, it's not weird that muslims see the Far Left Antifa as a strategic ally, useful for now, but ready to be discarded once they're no longer useful (if they don't "return to islam", of course). It worked in Iran after all.

Matt Cavanaugh wrote:Ha ha ha. Even though I graduated high school, my parents are heterosexual, still alive, and still married, and I've never been called a dyke or a fag (two separate questions, mull over that for a moment), it's official*:

adf2ddc7e59d7e26cad0a916466ebfee-14.jpg

* h/t the Buzzfeed Institute of Higher Social Sciences Research.

https://www.buzzfeed.com/regajha/how-pr ... .qmmwED2Do

That survey erases the lived experience of the rural poor and working class, It assumes the only shit jobs are waiter/barista/waitress and ignores picking rock, cleaning out calf pens, pulling chickens and hosing turkey guts off machinery. The only time I've been on the grounds of an airport was to hydroseed along the newly re-built runway. The only town with public transportation is more than 50 miles away, so no, I don't rely on it. ignoring the shit that doesn't apply, I rate as Under Privileged.

Fucking anti hayseedists.

free thoughtpolice wrote:

Matt Cavanaugh wrote:Ha ha ha. Even though I graduated high school, my parents are heterosexual, still alive, and still married, and I've never been called a dyke or a fag (two separate questions, mull over that for a moment), it's official*:

adf2ddc7e59d7e26cad0a916466ebfee-14.jpg

* h/t the Buzzfeed Institute of Higher Social Sciences Research.

https://www.buzzfeed.com/regajha/how-pr ... .qmmwED2Do

Neither am I! The baboons have slandered me! :twisted:

I did this out of amusement, being UK the never having had to pay for medication should apply but hasn't. Anyway it appears I am not privileged at all it seems. Part of this is because I once worked in a team where every one but me was Indian or Pakistani or a Parsee. This of course helps my lack of privilege despite being white.

TheMudbrooker wrote:The only town with public transportation is more than 50 miles away, so no, I don't rely on it. ignoring the shit that doesn't apply, I rate as Under Privileged.

Fucking anti hayseedists.

I rely on an '88 Chevy Silverado with a bent driver door. Fuck you, you privileged subway-using urbanites!

I also have in fact been called a 'fag' more than once, but since women routinely throw themselves at me, I figured it didn't count for the test.

I shovel shit every morning. But I'm white man. Forgive me, Oprah!

Matt Cavanaugh wrote:I rely on an '88 Chevy Silverado with a bent driver door. Fuck you, you privileged subway-using urbanites!

I can understand your frustration if you have a 29-year old partner, but she's bent while you're straight.

BBC story about 9 thing invented by women:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-40923649

Apparently Grace Hopper invented software. :think: :think:

Also, they need a good copy editor:

Hopper also helped popularised the term "de-bugging" that we still use on computers programmes today, after a moth was removed from inside her machine.

For the first time, more than half of people in the UK do not identify as religious, a survey suggests.
Last year 53% of people described themselves as having "no religion", in a survey of 2,942 adults by the National Centre for Social Research.
Among those aged between 18 and 25, the proportion was higher at 71%.
The Bishop of Liverpool said God and the Church "remains relevant" and that saying "no religion was not the same as considered atheism".

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-41150792

Good News from the UK!

Matt Cavanaugh wrote:

TheMudbrooker wrote:The only town with public transportation is more than 50 miles away, so no, I don't rely on it. ignoring the shit that doesn't apply, I rate as Under Privileged.

Fucking anti hayseedists.

I rely on an '88 Chevy Silverado with a bent driver door. Fuck you, you privileged subway-using urbanites!

I'll see your 88 Chevy and raise you an 83 Ford E150 van.
And, I have had a stranger want to touch my hair, course she really wanted to fuck me so I'm not sure if that counts.

MarcusAu wrote:
Take for example teaching about Henry VIII in history class. If you teach the struggle of protestants against catholics with no reference to anything supernatural then it would seem just like identarian politics, and because of that it could undermine someone's religious faith.

Unless it's pure indoctrination - I don't know how you could teach something even peripherally related to religion without it introducing at least some doubt (or causing the students to raise some questions) as to the doctrine they are supposed to believe.

I took a "history of the Reformation" course when I was an undergraduate and the professor never said anything about who was right or wrong about theological issues. Whether Luther or the Papists were "right" isn't a proper historical question.

Now he did discuss what the RC doctrine of indulgences was, and what it still is, and how Tetzel's sales strategy for indulgences was improper according to church doctrine. But he never talked about whether or not indulgences "worked."

He did say that Henry VIII had a perfectly reasonable expectation of getting an annulment, and that he was turned down by the pope because of the political/religious situation at the time. He did not discuss whether it was right or wrong for the pope to act as he did, but simply made the point that the popes were in the habit of granting annulments to the rich and powerful on plainly spurious grounds, and the grounds under which Henry was asking were by no means pushing the limits of normally acceptable spuriousness.

B.

Lsuoma wrote:BBC story about 9 thing invented by women:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-40923649

Apparently Grace Hopper invented software. :think: :think:

Also, they need a good copy editor:

Hopper also helped popularised the term "de-bugging" that we still use on computers programmes today, after a moth was removed from inside her machine.

Don't feminists champion Ada Lovelace as the first computer programmer?

https://adainitiative.org/about-ada-lovelace/

Also, remember the fuss about only 19% of Google's techies being women? According to this page women earn 18% of computer science degrees.

So did it give you a greater understanding / appreciation of the religious beliefs of the people involved?

Or did there seem to be entirely non-religious reasons for their behaviour?

Should this get a pro or anti islamic spin?

A new toy for only $70? I would think if they are any good they should be in music stores where you can try them out before purchase.

Matt Cavanaugh wrote:I shovel shit every morning. But I'm white man. Forgive me, Oprah!

You are talking about a woman who has made billions from shovelling shit.