There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one

Old subthreads
KiwiInOz
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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one

#6901

Post by KiwiInOz »

I've been mulling over a few things since watching Lauren does Luton. I've kept out of the ethno-whosit debate because I am a live and let live kind of guy, but want to offer the following thoughts.

Lauren was there in Luton to be provocative, and she got the expected response from some of the Muslim community. The Government, represented by the police, attempted to keep the peace by appeasing the crowd. They acknowledged that Lauren and her crew might get hurt of the crowd got ugly.

Provocation is generally no longer accepted as a legal defense in assault cases, but would it have been considered a mitigating factor in this case if Lauren had been assaulted ?

There seems to be a lot of appeasement going on because it is recognised that elements of this particular cultural group will get very aggressive (to the point of killing people) at the drop of a hadith. Appeasement didn't work on the Danes and it didn't work on the Nazis. But third time lucky right. Just pay the Jizya and be done.

Old_ones
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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one

#6902

Post by Old_ones »

shoutinghorse wrote:
Old_ones wrote:
shoutinghorse wrote: My point is that whilst the Europeans were still killing people with fire but Arabs were contributing to maths and physics it was the European enlightenment under Christianity that enabled science to prosper whilst the Arabic world stayed locked in the dark ages due to Islam so maybe 'we' of European heritage can say science is more of a "European thing" as we have clearly contributed far more in the last 300 years or so than any other culture. The Arabic world may well have been greater at physics and mathematics back then but their regressive Islamic culture has undoubtedly held them back when compared to Chrito/Euro Countries.

I was being a wee bit facetious with the Chinese remark but it's important not to forget the many things that came from that part of the world too.
The European enlightenment wasn't "under Christianity", but in spite of it. Christianity opposed and still opposes the Enlightenment, science and rationalism as a whole. The fact that Islam is a more potent opposition to those things in modernity shouldn't confuse you about where Christianity stands.
You knew exactly what I was getting at you pedantic prick. Christianity stopped killing people for believing science over religion whereas Islam carried on killing people (still does) for not believing in Allah. Therefore science prospered in Europe and died in Arabia. .. Now fuck off! :snooty:
Christianity didn't stop doing that, liberal democracy stopped Christianity from doing that. There is a big difference.

KiwiInOz
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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one

#6903

Post by KiwiInOz »

Thank dog the edit button works here. I was able to change doe to does in time in time to stop myself looking like a completer arse.

free thoughtpolice
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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one

#6904

Post by free thoughtpolice »

Old_ones wrote:
shoutinghorse wrote: My point is that whilst the Europeans were still killing people with fire but Arabs were contributing to maths and physics it was the European enlightenment under Christianity that enabled science to prosper whilst the Arabic world stayed locked in the dark ages due to Islam so maybe 'we' of European heritage can say science is more of a "European thing" as we have clearly contributed far more in the last 300 years or so than any other culture. The Arabic world may well have been greater at physics and mathematics back then but their regressive Islamic culture has undoubtedly held them back when compared to Chrito/Euro Countries.

I was being a wee bit facetious with the Chinese remark but it's important not to forget the many things that came from that part of the world too.
The European enlightenment wasn't "under Christianity", but in spite of it. Christianity opposed and still opposes the Enlightenment, science and rationalism as a whole. The fact that Islam is a more potent opposition to those things in modernity shouldn't confuse you about where Christianity stands.
Likewise, the Golden Age of Islam should probably be called the Golden Age in spite of Islam. There were a few centuries of rule that capitalized on the talent and knowledge of the empires they conquered. Knowledge from the Greco-Romans, Persians, and Indians were brought together by leaders that appreciated knowledge and the benefits gained from it. The idea that the brains behind this being devout muslims and that the "teachings" of islam were responsible for this to me sounds sounds like typical religious propaganda. When the by the book Hanafi and similar schools of islam emerged the Koranic dark age started and persists to this day.

CaptainFluffyBunny
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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one

#6905

Post by CaptainFluffyBunny »

Brive, would you mind succinctly summarizing what exact measures you are in favor of? I'm afraid I don't really watch the young ladies of alt-lite that get posted. Where do you stand on existing non-white populations in western-oriented nations? Are you just advocating a immigration ban or something more severe?

CommanderTuvok
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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one

#6906

Post by CommanderTuvok »

shoutinghorse wrote:
Brive1987 wrote:
Spring has sprung. Here we go again on the anual merry-go-round of multi culti enrichment. Roll up! Roll up! Next stop, a European city/town/village near you :popcorn:
There's this poem that goes something like "In the spring a young [Muslim] man's fancy lightly turns to thoughts of terrorism". Wordsworth or Tennyson, always confuse those fuckers.

Anyway, Lusoma (FT), chin up and all the best. Get well soon, mofo.

Keating
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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one

#6907

Post by Keating »

CaptainFluffyBunny wrote: Brive, would you mind succinctly summarizing what exact measures you are in favor of? I'm afraid I don't really watch the young ladies of alt-lite that get posted. Where do you stand on existing non-white populations in western-oriented nations? Are you just advocating a immigration ban or something more severe?
Muslims should piss on the Koran.

CommanderTuvok
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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one

#6908

Post by CommanderTuvok »

Sulman wrote: I'm genuinely concerned about Linehan. I think Twitter is driving him mad.
He's in trouble with certain sections of the SJW crowd, because of his TERFness, so, in what is a familiar pattern, he overcompensates and starts blasting the "alt-right" to try and make amends with the SJWs.

He's a fucking fake.

Old_ones
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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one

#6909

Post by Old_ones »

free thoughtpolice wrote:
Old_ones wrote:
shoutinghorse wrote: My point is that whilst the Europeans were still killing people with fire but Arabs were contributing to maths and physics it was the European enlightenment under Christianity that enabled science to prosper whilst the Arabic world stayed locked in the dark ages due to Islam so maybe 'we' of European heritage can say science is more of a "European thing" as we have clearly contributed far more in the last 300 years or so than any other culture. The Arabic world may well have been greater at physics and mathematics back then but their regressive Islamic culture has undoubtedly held them back when compared to Chrito/Euro Countries.

I was being a wee bit facetious with the Chinese remark but it's important not to forget the many things that came from that part of the world too.
The European enlightenment wasn't "under Christianity", but in spite of it. Christianity opposed and still opposes the Enlightenment, science and rationalism as a whole. The fact that Islam is a more potent opposition to those things in modernity shouldn't confuse you about where Christianity stands.
Likewise, the Golden Age of Islam should probably be called the Golden Age in spite of Islam. There were a few centuries of rule that capitalized on the talent and knowledge of the empires they conquered. Knowledge from the Greco-Romans, Persians, and Indians were brought together by leaders that appreciated knowledge and the benefits gained from it. The idea that the brains behind this being devout muslims and that the "teachings" of islam were responsible for this to me sounds sounds like typical religious propaganda. When the by the book Hanafi and similar schools of islam emerged the Koranic dark age started and persists to this day.
Exactly.

#32 Rat
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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one

#6910

Post by #32 Rat »

CaptainFluffyBunny wrote: Brive, would you mind succinctly summarizing what exact measures you are in favor of? I'm afraid I don't really watch the young ladies of alt-lite that get posted. Where do you stand on existing non-white populations in western-oriented nations? Are you just advocating a immigration ban or something more severe?
Seconded.

Also, get well Lsuoma. Fuck cancer.

Fegg
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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one

#6911

Post by Fegg »

Old_ones wrote:
Fri Mar 23, 2018 2:23 pm
Christianity forced Copernicus to publish his theories posthumously.
As near as I can tell, that claim is flat out false.

B.

Old_ones
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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one

#6912

Post by Old_ones »

Fegg wrote:
Old_ones wrote:
Fri Mar 23, 2018 2:23 pm
Christianity forced Copernicus to publish his theories posthumously.
As near as I can tell, that claim is flat out false.

B.
My understanding is that he didn't want to oppose the church openly, and that upending their Ptolemaic model of the solar system would do just that. So rather than face persecution, he published his heliocentric heresies after he died. If you have a more accurate version of that story, by all means enlighten me, but it's worth noting that Galileo landed himself in the hands of the inquisition for substantiating Copernicus, and that is a fact I'm not willing to concede.

Brive1987
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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one

#6913

Post by Brive1987 »

CaptainFluffyBunny wrote: Brive, would you mind succinctly summarizing what exact measures you are in favor of? I'm afraid I don't really watch the young ladies of alt-lite that get posted. Where do you stand on existing non-white populations in western-oriented nations? Are you just advocating a immigration ban or something more severe?
You don’t have to be a star footballer with pragmatic solutions in order to point out a losing team.

But I have in the past listed stuff that appears to be common sense.

In the Australian context stuff along the lines of.

Establish hard borders
Acknowledge that the dominant culture in Australia is Western European with a focus on UK. This is a historical reality.
Stop trying to make Sydney a global city (which ostracises the local inhabitants)
Stop pushing a ponzi economy based on continuous sugar hits of mass low quality or un-needed immigrants
Stop selling our land, property and assets to overseas interests. Did you know China owns the Port of Darwin?
Stop allowing Chinese funded cultural programs in local schools
No religious schools outside of the hitherto existing Judeo-Christian tradition we already had
Stop all social programs extending extra benefits based on cultural misalignment.
Zero tolerance for any demands for parallel legal systems
Focus on aid programs designed to assist countries in place - rather than accepting token refugees as blood money of a sort
Celebrate our history in primary school without the black armband. Take pride in where we came from and who we are.
Acknowledge that our national language is English and, where prayer etc is traditional, that it will be a Christian expression
Acknowledge that the gold standard is a nuclear family while acknowledging this isn’t always a possible outcome
Retain the existing and highly successful Constitutional Monarchy and retain our current constitution
Strike out hate speech laws
Reduce immigration to no more that 70K a year
Favour immigrants from culturally aligned societies with a prescribed leavening of exotica
Facilitate financially those residents and dual citizens who no longer want to participate in society and wish to legally relocate
Develop ties with New Zealand and the South Pacific rather than continue the American love lock.
Gas the Jews.
........

Now England may be worse off than we are and I wouldn’t even pretend to know in detail how to lance their boil.

Old_ones
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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one

#6914

Post by Old_ones »

Lsuoma wrote: Steersman may not be a nigger, but s/h/it is a cunt.

In the early days of the Pit, I called s/h/it Steerzo, and s/h/it called me Lymphoma.

Well, I now have lymphoma. Found out today. Steerzo is a cunt.

And probably a nigger too.
I'm not a physician, but I've heard lymphoma is one of those diseases where there are a lot of very effective treatment options. I hope that is true relative to whatever type of lymphoma you have, and that you are cancer free soon. What Steersman is, we may never know, but I have a few hypotheses...


Brive1987
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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one

#6915

Post by Brive1987 »

Let me point out that Kirb gets away with white anting the traditional West without ever stumping up practical policy ideas.

Outside of teach men not to rape outside of teach migrants enlightened values regardless of their preconditioning and the current moral weakness of the West.

CaptainFluffyBunny
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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one

#6916

Post by CaptainFluffyBunny »

Brive1987 wrote: Let me point out that Kirb gets away with white anting the traditional West without ever stumping up practical policy ideas.

Outside of teach men not to rape outside of teach migrants enlightened values regardless of their preconditioning and the current moral weakness of the West.
Well, to be fair, Kirb isn't detailing anything requiring a massive restructuring of existing societal norms, while I was unsure of your position.

I can agree with many of your positions, but fuck favoring Judeo-Christian nonsense. The USA has it right in theory if not in practice that no religion should be favored or have the endorsement of the state. That it doesn't always play out that way is vexing.

Don't other Commonwealth nations get preference in immigration to Australia? I have to wonder if there isn't a way to phrase immigration policies that would make them sound less "xenophobic" with less emphasis on race, perhaps even cultural but instead emphasize the economic role and long-term stability.

I live in an area with a lot of immigrants, and I see what works in the USA, and it isn't really about race. In a way, I think our terrible safety net works to our advantage, because if you come here, you're going to have to work. No free rides with lots of time to brew resentments. As a result, we don't seem to have the Muslim issue plaguing the UK, Europe and Australia. Most people seem to want to blend in, at least financially and often culturally as well.

That being said the FBI was by today asking some very disturbing questions about my neighbor, or rather my neighbor's adult son. "Do you think he poses a danger to our country? When did you last see him?"

I am a bit concerned.

CaptainFluffyBunny
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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one

#6917

Post by CaptainFluffyBunny »

Another point to be made- if the enlightenment values are only applicable to white European countries, then they will ultimately be a failure. The ideas have to translate at least in spirit to other nations, or they will eventually become a footnote in history. We need to defend them, but also sell the ideas and ideals to humanity.

John D
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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one

#6918

Post by John D »

Sargon does a really good job summarizing the Count Dankula issue. Sometimes I think he is a bit of a shit.... but here... his work is detailed and his video is well constructed.


Fegg
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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one

#6919

Post by Fegg »

Old_ones wrote: My understanding is that he didn't want to oppose the church openly,
The Roman church didn't actually have an official position against heliocentrism until 1616, 73 years later. It is possible that Copernicus was concerned about theological opposition, though he seems to have been more concerned with what other astronomers thought. As it turns out, the church opposition did not materialize until provoked by Galileo.

B.

fafnir
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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one

#6920

Post by fafnir »

Old_ones wrote:
shoutinghorse wrote:
Old_ones wrote:
shoutinghorse wrote: My point is that whilst the Europeans were still killing people with fire but Arabs were contributing to maths and physics it was the European enlightenment under Christianity that enabled science to prosper whilst the Arabic world stayed locked in the dark ages due to Islam so maybe 'we' of European heritage can say science is more of a "European thing" as we have clearly contributed far more in the last 300 years or so than any other culture. The Arabic world may well have been greater at physics and mathematics back then but their regressive Islamic culture has undoubtedly held them back when compared to Chrito/Euro Countries.

I was being a wee bit facetious with the Chinese remark but it's important not to forget the many things that came from that part of the world too.
The European enlightenment wasn't "under Christianity", but in spite of it. Christianity opposed and still opposes the Enlightenment, science and rationalism as a whole. The fact that Islam is a more potent opposition to those things in modernity shouldn't confuse you about where Christianity stands.
You knew exactly what I was getting at you pedantic prick. Christianity stopped killing people for believing science over religion whereas Islam carried on killing people (still does) for not believing in Allah. Therefore science prospered in Europe and died in Arabia. .. Now fuck off! :snooty:
Christianity didn't stop doing that, liberal democracy stopped Christianity from doing that. There is a big difference.
Are you sure it was liberal democracy? I'd trace it to at least the fallout of the Reformation. The idea that the bible, and by extension the world, was open to rational enquiry rather than relying on church dogma, or Aristotle. When are we counting liberal democracy as being a meaningful force? In England, I'd think by the Restoration the era of getting killed for scientific beliefs was pretty well over.

Old_ones
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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one

#6921

Post by Old_ones »

Fegg wrote:
Old_ones wrote: My understanding is that he didn't want to oppose the church openly,
The Roman church didn't actually have an official position against heliocentrism until 1616, 73 years later. It is possible that Copernicus was concerned about theological opposition, though he seems to have been more concerned with what other astronomers thought. As it turns out, the church opposition did not materialize until provoked by Galileo.

B.
Oh, you mean the Catholic church didn't have a written policy about an idea before it was credibly articulated for the first time? What a fucking surprise. Yeah, you are right. The reason Copernicus waited until death to publish his theories that contradicted official doctrine must have had nothing to do with that. He probably just didn't like celebrity culture and didn't want to be a part of it.

Old_ones
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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one

#6922

Post by Old_ones »

fafnir wrote:
Old_ones wrote:
shoutinghorse wrote:
Old_ones wrote:
shoutinghorse wrote: My point is that whilst the Europeans were still killing people with fire but Arabs were contributing to maths and physics it was the European enlightenment under Christianity that enabled science to prosper whilst the Arabic world stayed locked in the dark ages due to Islam so maybe 'we' of European heritage can say science is more of a "European thing" as we have clearly contributed far more in the last 300 years or so than any other culture. The Arabic world may well have been greater at physics and mathematics back then but their regressive Islamic culture has undoubtedly held them back when compared to Chrito/Euro Countries.

I was being a wee bit facetious with the Chinese remark but it's important not to forget the many things that came from that part of the world too.
The European enlightenment wasn't "under Christianity", but in spite of it. Christianity opposed and still opposes the Enlightenment, science and rationalism as a whole. The fact that Islam is a more potent opposition to those things in modernity shouldn't confuse you about where Christianity stands.
You knew exactly what I was getting at you pedantic prick. Christianity stopped killing people for believing science over religion whereas Islam carried on killing people (still does) for not believing in Allah. Therefore science prospered in Europe and died in Arabia. .. Now fuck off! :snooty:
Christianity didn't stop doing that, liberal democracy stopped Christianity from doing that. There is a big difference.
Are you sure it was liberal democracy? I'd trace it to at least the fallout of the Reformation. The idea that the bible, and by extension the world, was open to rational enquiry rather than relying on church dogma, or Aristotle. When are we counting liberal democracy as being a meaningful force? In England, I'd think by the Restoration the era of getting killed for scientific beliefs was pretty well over.
The puritans were post-reformation and they were zealous persecutors of heresy and witchcraft. Even the Presbyterians, who are tepid mainline protestants by modern standards were a problem for the framers of the constitution, and were opponents of the separation of church and state. Yes, I think it was our modern system of constitutional representative government that did this. No, it did not have anything to do with the internal merits of Christianity.

free thoughtpolice
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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one

#6923

Post by free thoughtpolice »

Oh boo hoo, how terrible. Another woman leaves the atheism movement because of all the toxic masculinity and sexual assault going on. PZ and Becky were right all along.
http://archive.is/IIYa4
Listen while you still can
The last episode of the Just Us Women podcast is up, for now, and it’s heartbreaking. She’s leaving the atheist movement for reasons that are all too common.
I will no longer be interviewing women who have left religion, since I cannot in good conscience refer them to the atheist community, where they could find support. … All the resources are tainted with connections to the top tier of misogynist, sexist men.
This is where we are now. I don’t see how atheism, as any kind of movement, will recover.
Some good comments

John D
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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one

#6924

Post by John D »

I think I have benign paroxysmal positional vertigo. I don't think it is serious and I have found some videos on how to treat it. It is freaking me out a bit. When I tilt my head I get dizzy and shit starts spinning and throbbing. Really weird. I guess I have some shit in my coclia or some such shit. If you follow a certain movement routine as therapy you can get it to go away. So yeah.... just sharing.

Old_ones
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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one

#6925

Post by Old_ones »

Old_ones wrote:
The puritans were post-reformation and they were zealous persecutors of heresy and witchcraft. Even the Presbyterians, who are tepid mainline protestants by modern standards were a problem for the framers of the constitution, and were opponents of the separation of church and state. Yes, I think it was our modern system of constitutional representative government that did this. No, it did not have anything to do with the internal merits of Christianity.
Fun fact. I went to Iceland in the last five years (my favorite place on earth) and I learned some things about the local culture and history. It turns out that most of the witch persecution in Iceland happened under protestantism. They were too far from Rome to be well regulated by the Catholic church, but they got some lutheran zealots after the reformation who knew exactly what to do with people showing vestiges of reverence for the old ways. In short, fuck protestantism. It's every bit as bad as catholocism, just with less regulation. It's more of a cult and less of a proper religion. And fuck any other form of christianity. Its all fucking worthless.


Guest_d2e60302

Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one

#6926

Post by Guest_d2e60302 »

InfraRedBucket wrote:
Fri Mar 23, 2018 11:32 am
Shatterface wrote:
Sulman wrote: I'm genuinely concerned about Linehan. I think Twitter is driving him mad.
He's apparently okay with using the word 'cunt'. Someone please point Dusty Benson his way.
Interesting since a while back JK Rowling posted this in relation to a unnamed person (not Lineham it was an author I'd never heard of)
Apologies for the duplicate tweets (hard to avoid) but this is a work of art in hypocrisy.


Bellatrix was still fighing too, fifty yards away from Voldemort, and like her
master she dueled three at once: Hermione, Ginny and Luna, all battling their hardest, but
Bellatrix was equal to them, and Harry's attention was diverted as a Killing Curse shot so
close to Ginny that she missed death by an inch -
He changed course, running at Bellatrix rather than Voldemort, but before he had
gone a few steps he was knocked sideways.
"NOT MY DAUGHTER, YOU BITCH!"
Mrs. Weasley threw off her cloak as she ran, freeing her arms, Bellatrix spun on
the spot, roaring with laughter at the sight of the new challenger
Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows, p387

And it's not just here, quite a few girls and women in Harry Potter are described in gendered stereotypical ways: catty, vengeful, petty, jealous, vain, and elsewhere in the Rowling canon, here various characters and villains in her detective stories are as well.

Understanding the author is not the character, I'm still not sure why JK would write characters that do not reflect reality, surely such fake artificial characters would not be believed by her audiences.

Maybe she is saying it's okay for women to do this, just not for men.

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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one

#6927

Post by Old_ones »

Bring back true European culture!


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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one

#6928

Post by Bhurzum »


Keating
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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one

#6929

Post by Keating »

I’m fairly convinced the philosophical foundations of Christianity were necessary for the development of the scientific method. The idea that the mind of god was knowable and the patterns of the universe were there to be discovered. I’m currently trying to work out if the induction problem, a foundational axiom of science, relies on the idea of an omnicicient observers.

I’m certainly sure that to say it’s all worthless is wrong. The Bible doesn’t have a position on heliocentrism, for instance. The position Galileo was challenging was Aristotle’s, and was already 2000 years old at the time of the challenge. You could say Aristotle is all worthless, but, given how influential he was, I don’t think that’s fair. I don’t think it’s fair for Christianity either. Similar statements could be made about the Hindu or Confusion traditions, but I do think the Islamic golden age is dramatically overstated, contributing almost nothing.

KiwiInOz
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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one

#6930

Post by KiwiInOz »

Bhurzum wrote:
Now that is rocking the Kasbah!!

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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one

#6931

Post by MarcusAu »

Old_ones wrote: The puritans were post-reformation and they were zealous persecutors of heresy and witchcraft. Even the Presbyterians, who are tepid mainline protestants by modern standards were a problem for the framers of the constitution, and were opponents of the separation of church and state. Yes, I think it was our modern system of constitutional representative government that did this. No, it did not have anything to do with the internal merits of Christianity.
Yeah - but without god all things are possible.

It's important to remember that as well as the Englightenment, europe also gave us the Counter-Englightenment - so on balance nothing was gained.

Brive1987
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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one

#6932

Post by Brive1987 »

CaptainFluffyBunny wrote: Another point to be made- if the enlightenment values are only applicable to white European countries, then they will ultimately be a failure. The ideas have to translate at least in spirit to other nations, or they will eventually become a footnote in history. We need to defend them, but also sell the ideas and ideals to humanity.
Couple of quick point.

UK is different is Europe. Australia, Canada and South Africa are different to UK. But America is completely and utterly unique. I don’t think Americans can really comprehend the outside world given the complexity, power and scale of USA. And we don’t get you.

There is nothing objectively right about enlightenment values such they need to be imposed on the rest of the world. In fact the enlightenment was simply the reaction against too much church control. The pendulum swung to far to the liberal individual (hello SJ madness) and we need a retreat to useful collective identity.

India is I guess a Commonwealth country (India and China are out two main source of migrants because ... ummm ... reasons)
:x :lol: But no. There is no preference unless you are a white South African in which case calls for short term preference,are met with howls from the liberal 5th column.

You in America fucked yourselves over with religion. In general we managed to constrain ourselves to Christmas, Weddings, Funerals, Easter and baptisms. So, especially Anglicanism, it was a useful and largely benign cultural Christianity that glued communities. Kinda like watching the Queens Xmas message as an annual homage to the monarchy.

pro-boxing-fan
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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one

#6933

Post by pro-boxing-fan »

John D wrote: I think I have benign paroxysmal positional vertigo. I don't think it is serious and I have found some videos on how to treat it. It is freaking me out a bit. When I tilt my head I get dizzy and shit starts spinning and throbbing. Really weird. I guess I have some shit in my coclia or some such shit. If you follow a certain movement routine as therapy you can get it to go away. So yeah.... just sharing.
I had an aunt who suffered from that. Suicide. Just saying.

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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one

#6934

Post by Kirbmarc »

Brive1987 wrote:
Fri Mar 23, 2018 3:59 pm
Let me point out that Kirb gets away with white anting the traditional West without ever stumping up practical policy ideas.

Outside of teach men not to rape outside of teach migrants enlightened values regardless of their preconditioning and the current moral weakness of the West.
I was told plenty of times that I was repeating myself with my recommendations in my "too long" posts, so I stopped repeating myself.

Anyway if you want a more detailed plan, I'll just copy-paste some stuff I've written during the years on this board:
If you really want to fight terrorism you have to keep an eye on the religious leaders in the Wahabi/Salafi community, and figure out who's paying their bills. Set the IRS (or your national equivalent) onto them. Read their books, record their preachings, spy on their cellphones and computers, and look for anti-Western ideas and contacts with known terrorists or terrorist-friendly organizations. Do the same for all the recent immigrants as well, especially if their files have some specific red flags (coming from certain countries, not having specific job perspectives, having ties to other suspicious people).
If you're talking about muslims who live in "western" countries the most efficient solution would be to close all muslim religious schools and allow them to reopen only if they accept governmental control over what they teach (so no hateful or bigoted messages taught to kids), have a list of imams and keep them under control, severely limit immigration from muslim countries to those who are highly educated and/or members of a class of people which victimized by islamic laws/islamic regimes, and stop cooperating with muslim theocracies until they accept control over the material they can send and the money they're allowed to spend in your country.

Also making citizenship dependent on evidence of assimilation, like in Switzerland, could help.

I realize that this is draconian solution, and it'd go against many established principles, especially the long-standing religious privileges of teaching whatever they want and not be sanctioned.

A less drastic solution, which might work in the US (where the biggest problems are foreign imams or muslim thought leaders financed or educated by the Muslim Brotherhood or Salafi networks), could be to cut alliances and lobby-based ties with the Gulf theocracies and foster the growth of an autonomous "American Muslim" identity by promoting those who are in favor of separation of mosque and state, secularism, rejecting literalism, etc.

If you're talking about muslims who live in muslim majority countries I have absolutely no idea, but I think that the "west" should stay away from the games and schemes of Middle Eastern countries and let them sort out their own issues in their own time.
The problem in the US is the preaching of Salafi cunts at reactionary mosques, and of Muslim Brotherhood ideologues being elevated to thought leaders by the SocJus media (like, recently, in the case of Cenk Uygur and his stupid, incredibly stupid attack on criticism of islam from ex muslims) and it's a problem that can be handled easily if a US government dares to stop licking Saudi Arabia's boots.

In Europe the thing is much more complex. There are not only the obvious issue of Gulf State/Muslim Brotherhood infiltration, but also the fact that a lot of the immigrants to Europe from the "muslim world" are poor, ignorant, often, as you say, not screened at all to keep out the criminals and nutcases, and many European governments have let them settle in ghettoes and isolate themselves from society at large, while keeping those ghettoes in a state of cultural, economic and social near-collapse. Think about the conditions which lead inner-city black americans to a life of crime.

The problems with Islam in the US can be faced like you face the problems with Christianity: more information, more education, secularist/modernist resistance to the reactionary/conservative imams, being careful about defending separation of church and state, calling out hateful or divisive messages, etc. In this respect it's good that Linda Sarsour is finally being called out on her support for Louis Farrakhan. Linda is a Muslim Brotherhood shill, and to choose her as the face of the "Women's March" is like choosing Richard Spencer to lead the youth wing of the NAACP.

But again, in the US the problems with islam are relatively easy to deal with, just more consistency from progressives would be enough.

In Europe you need to deal with subcultures which flourish in ghettoes and in general with the isolation of muslims from society at large. Sharia courts in the UK have been a terrible idea, just like muslim religious schools, most of which are staffed by people trained to hate anything that's not muslim, and letting "community leaders" form a parallel society.

But there's also the issue of finding a way to better screen muslim immigrants, to keep out the criminals and nutters. LOTS of people in the "muslim world" are deliberately sending their hotheads, screwed up and criminal elements to Europe. Those people frequently lie about their age and origin. Testing for age, and screening out the liars, would be a start. Reducing the number of single young males being let in if they don't have proper documentation is another useful thing to do. In general I'm not opposed to immigration restrictions, as long as they're based on actual indicators of trouble and not on blanket bans.

Also there's an issue of actually integrating people, of creating and promoting centers for civic values instead of having a lassiez-faire attitude towards integration, and of course of kicking out those who preach violent and subversive ideas, or the criminal element.

In general there's also the issue that liberal and ex-muslims aren't supported by the left or by the authorities or even by secular groups, which instead go out of their way to meet with people who are the muslim equivalent of David Duke or Ann Coulter, just because they've convinced themselves that hijabs are "resistance to colonialism", that "Islam is a feminist religion" or some other incredibly idiotic post-modern idea.

When Linda Sarsour is praised and Ayaan Hirsi Ali is shunned, when Mo Ansar is considered an ally but Maajid Nawaz is spat on, you know that the progressive left hasn't understood what's going on, and is instead siding with muslim identity politics while throwing ex muslims and liberal muslims under the bus. That's my primary concern in here, to gather ideas about how to make people in atheist/skeptic/secular groups open their eyes to the fact that muslim identity politics are inherently conservative and yes, even fascist.
I could go on, but then people would just complain that the post is getting too long :bjarte:

I also remember that you were OK with letting Saudi Arabia and (indirectly) Israel finance and support Salafi militias in Syria, probably under the impression that those Salafi groups would stay confined to Syria and not go to the "west" (they might, but their ideas and tactics won't). You've never commented on the fact that Saudi Arabia and other gulf countries send teaching material laden with anti-west, anti-christianity, anti-judaism, anti-liberal democracy messages to muslim schools, organizations and movements in the "west", without anyone doing anything meaningful about that. I suppose you're not OK with that, but in order to stop that you NEED to ditch the alliance with the Gulf theocracies, and since Israel is also allied with those same muslim theocracy, you need to re-think the terms of your alliance with Israel, too.

You can't simply think "as long as they use those Salafi militias in Syria and not in my backyard we'll be fine". Ideas and tactics travel across borders, you can't act like the defender of the West at home and being chummy with muslim theocracies abroad.

You seem to think that one is "born" muslim, and there's nothing you can do about it, instead of islam being something that is taught by schools and overwhelming peer pressure. Christianity changed once religious schools were no longer the only sources of learning, once intellectuals had the freedom to criticize Christianity without getting killed or imprisoned, when Christian peer pressure collapsed and being a "Christian square" become uncool, etc. Why shouldn't islam lose some of its power if the marketplace of ideas is made more open? Is islam just supernaturally powerful, or written in the DNA of people of a certain ancestry?

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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one

#6935

Post by MarcusAu »

Brive1987 wrote:

Couple of quick point.

UK is different is Europe. Australia, Canada and South Africa are different to UK. But America is completely and utterly unique. I don’t think Americans can really comprehend the outside world given the complexity, power and scale of USA. And we don’t get you.

There is nothing objectively right about enlightenment values such they need to be imposed on the rest of the world. In fact the enlightenment was simply the reaction against too much church control. The pendulum swung to far to the liberal individual (hello SJ madness) and we need a retreat to useful collective identity.

India is I guess a Commonwealth country (India and China are out two main source of migrants because ... ummm ... reasons)
:x :lol: But no. There is no preference unless you are a white South African in which case calls for short term preference,are met with howls from the liberal 5th column.

You in America fucked yourselves over with religion. In general we managed to constrain ourselves to Christmas, Weddings, Funerals, Easter and baptisms. So, especially Anglicanism, it was a useful and largely benign cultural Christianity that glued communities. Kinda like watching the Queens Xmas message as an annual homage to the monarchy.
Unless I've missed it you've diagnosed the symptoms and proposed a cure without first finding the root cause. Maybe source of the current malaise is because we are living in cities rather than smaller communities, or because of the ubiquity and anonymity of social media, or for another thousand reasons. Everyone has an idea as to why things are the way the are - but how do you prove it? (You know with correlation not being causation and all that).

Is the collective identity by top-down design or will it be an emergent property?

nb The anglican cultural identity is (or was) at least in part defined in opposition to the catholic one (or maybe that's vice versa). Especially if you go back a generation or two. And we are not.

nb I've never watched a complete Queen's xmas speech - but that's part another tradition I suppose.

Brive1987
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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one

#6936

Post by Brive1987 »

I am watching Justice League for the first time. One hour in and there have been at least 8 Wonder Woman up skirts, a butt cheek and sundry cleavage. I will be out of action for a little while.

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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one

#6937

Post by #32 Rat »

Uber comes up with a free market solution to the homelessness problem, and all you meat drones can do is complain.

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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one

#6938

Post by rayshul »

I agree America's welfare system is a deterrent to Islamic immigrants... Europe are fucking idiots

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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one

#6939

Post by Kirbmarc »

Brive1987 wrote: Acknowledge that the dominant culture in Australia is Western European with a focus on UK. This is a historical reality.
OK, but once you've done that, then what? This is mostly signalling. It can be useful, sure, but it depends on how you implement it. Does this simply mean that English is the standard language, English laws are the basis for Australian laws, Enlightenment values are the inspiration of Australian core principles, etc? Then it's fine. Does this mean that people whose ancestry isn't from the UK, or not from Western Europe, are now second-class citizens? You're likely not in favor of this interpretation.

But the devil is in the details, since "dominant culture" arguments HAVE been used to prop up exclusionary/discriminatory laws in the past. You have to be VERY careful. People who film videos about how non-white people in Paris will be the end of France aren't very careful, or even slightly careful.
Stop pushing a ponzi economy based on continuous sugar hits of mass low quality or un-needed immigrants
Again, it's fine in principle, but how well does this work depends on the fine details. Cheap labor is what A LOT of employers want. Pension schemes also need more young, active people to pay taxes to support an aging population. How do you get around those issues? I'm not saying that it can't be done, but it needs to be worked out.
Stop selling our land, property and assets to overseas interests. Did you know China owns the Port of Darwin?
So you need more governmental control in the economy, to support things like nationalizations and protection of local interests. Basically a social democratic scheme.
No religious schools outside of the hitherto existing Judeo-Christian tradition we already had
How about no religious schools, period? Or if that's too draconian, how about no religious schools unless the government has complete control over their syllabi and can fire teachers, staff and administrators?
Zero tolerance for any demands for parallel legal systems
I couldn't agree more on this. One law for all, and the law is equal for everyone. Those are core principles of liberal democracy, I still don't completely get how in the UK it was possible to build a parallel legal system with official approval.
Focus on aid programs designed to assist countries in place - rather than accepting token refugees as blood money of a sort
This includes changing one's foreign policy so that it no longer supports the trouble-makers who keep taking down other countries and producing chaos. So also Saudi Arabia and the gulf theocracies, not just Iran.
Celebrate our history in primary school without the black armband. Take pride in where we came from and who we are.
Combine this with teaching of civics and of social values (so, for example, ALL students HAVE to respect their teachers, regardless of their teacher's gender, and be DEMANDED to shake their hands at the appropriate time, with no "muh religion" exceptions).
Acknowledge that our national language is English and, where prayer etc is traditional, that it will be a Christian expression
I'd say that it's even better to point out that traditional prayers aren't state supported, they're social expressions.
Acknowledge that the gold standard is a nuclear family while acknowledging this isn’t always a possible outcome
Why do you need this in the context of immigration and integration? It's not immigrants who are pushing for civil unions or gay marriage.
Retain the existing and highly successful Constitutional Monarchy and retain our current constitution
Is anyone pushing for a change in this respect (genuine question)?
Strike out hate speech laws
I agree.
Reduce immigration to no more that 70K a year
Favour immigrants from culturally aligned societies with a prescribed leavening of exotica
Facilitate financially those residents and dual citizens who no longer want to participate in society and wish to legally relocate
Again, the devil is in the details, but nothing here implies an explicit racial/identitarian basis for those changes. You can make it about fluency in English, having a job, being qualified, etc.
Develop ties with New Zealand and the South Pacific rather than continue the American love lock.
Seems like a sound foreign policy choice.

Nowhere in your list I see an explicit call for ethno-nationalist ideas. There are some parts which I completely support, others where I have plenty of caveat, but there's no need to side with the identitarians to push for these reforms.

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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one

#6940

Post by Brive1987 »

Wow. No sooner am I Wonder Woman’d but Faith reappears on looney Lana’s.

:cdc:


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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one

#6941

Post by feathers »

Old_ones wrote:
Fri Mar 23, 2018 2:23 pm
Chiristians tortured Galileo into recanting on his data supporting heliocentrism.
No, they only had to show him the implements of torture.

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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one

#6942

Post by ThreeFlangedJavis »

Old_ones wrote:
Fri Mar 23, 2018 2:06 pm
shoutinghorse wrote: My point is that whilst the Europeans were still killing people with fire but Arabs were contributing to maths and physics it was the European enlightenment under Christianity that enabled science to prosper whilst the Arabic world stayed locked in the dark ages due to Islam so maybe 'we' of European heritage can say science is more of a "European thing" as we have clearly contributed far more in the last 300 years or so than any other culture. The Arabic world may well have been greater at physics and mathematics back then but their regressive Islamic culture has undoubtedly held them back when compared to Chrito/Euro Countries.

I was being a wee bit facetious with the Chinese remark but it's important not to forget the many things that came from that part of the world too.
The European enlightenment wasn't "under Christianity", but in spite of it. Christianity opposed and still opposes the Enlightenment, science and rationalism as a whole. The fact that Islam is a more potent opposition to those things in modernity shouldn't confuse you about where Christianity stands.
Perhaps not. Whatever the decrees of the Xtian establishment, the individualist nature of the religion enabled the Enlightenment. I've seen plausible arguments to that effect anyway.

Old_ones
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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one

#6943

Post by Old_ones »

Keating wrote: I’m fairly convinced the philosophical foundations of Christianity were necessary for the development of the scientific method. The idea that the mind of god was knowable and the patterns of the universe were there to be discovered. I’m currently trying to work out if the induction problem, a foundational axiom of science, relies on the idea of an omnicicient observers.

I’m certainly sure that to say it’s all worthless is wrong. The Bible doesn’t have a position on heliocentrism, for instance. The position Galileo was challenging was Aristotle’s, and was already 2000 years old at the time of the challenge. You could say Aristotle is all worthless, but, given how influential he was, I don’t think that’s fair. I don’t think it’s fair for Christianity either. Similar statements could be made about the Hindu or Confusion traditions, but I do think the Islamic golden age is dramatically overstated, contributing almost nothing.
I don't think Aristotle was worthless. The part that was worthless was the intellectually vacuous religion that promoted his ideas and burned his doubters at the stake for 1000 years. Yeah, christianity had value if you value stagnation as Jordan Peterson does. Otherwise, I don't see what value christianity has. The Pagan greeks were well on their way to discovering the scientific method almost 2000 years ago before christians halted all the intellectual progress in Europe for 1000 years. Without christianity I think the dark ages would have lasted about 200 years instead of 1000 years, but what is beyond debate is the fact that Europeans were individualists before christianity, and that they were pioneering science with a pagan worldview.

Bhurzum
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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one

#6944

Post by Bhurzum »

KiwiInOz wrote: Now that is rocking the Kasbah!!
All hotness and artistic talent aside, I love it when people blend metal/rock with other cultural activities/themes. For me, it all started with the Sisters Of Mercy featuring Ofra Haza (RIP) on "Temple of love"...



Her voice is like Procaine for my tortured mind - pure bliss!

YMMV.

Old_ones
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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one

#6945

Post by Old_ones »

ThreeFlangedJavis wrote:
Old_ones wrote:
Fri Mar 23, 2018 2:06 pm
shoutinghorse wrote: My point is that whilst the Europeans were still killing people with fire but Arabs were contributing to maths and physics it was the European enlightenment under Christianity that enabled science to prosper whilst the Arabic world stayed locked in the dark ages due to Islam so maybe 'we' of European heritage can say science is more of a "European thing" as we have clearly contributed far more in the last 300 years or so than any other culture. The Arabic world may well have been greater at physics and mathematics back then but their regressive Islamic culture has undoubtedly held them back when compared to Chrito/Euro Countries.

I was being a wee bit facetious with the Chinese remark but it's important not to forget the many things that came from that part of the world too.
The European enlightenment wasn't "under Christianity", but in spite of it. Christianity opposed and still opposes the Enlightenment, science and rationalism as a whole. The fact that Islam is a more potent opposition to those things in modernity shouldn't confuse you about where Christianity stands.
Perhaps not. Whatever the decrees of the Xtian establishment, the individualist nature of the religion enabled the Enlightenment. I've seen plausible arguments to that effect anyway.
As noted above, individualism predates christianity in Europe. If you want to argue that Confucianism would have been more damaging than christianity then fine, that may well be the case, but that isn't an argument for christianity being a net positive.

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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one

#6946

Post by Kirbmarc »

The biggest difference between Christianity and Islam when it came to religious persecutions of dissenters and critics was that islam was more or less unified into big, sprawling empires, while Christianity was divided into cities, states, and eventually even colonies. It's not a coincidence that a lot of "heretics" in Europe took refuge in other countries, or in small city-states (like Zurich in Switzerland) or in overseas colonies. If the Vatican wanted your head you moved to Venice, or to Zurich. If a duke or baron in a German state wanted to throw you in jail you could move to another small state, or to a Dutch city. If you were in trouble in the United Kingdom, you could set sail for America. If France wanted to get of you, you could go to England (the Huguenots did it), etc.

On the other hand if you were in trouble with the authorities of the Ottoman Empire it was far harder to leave it and hide somewhere else. If you were in Tunis, or in Damascus, or in Istanbul, and the Sultans wanted your head because of something you had written, you pretty much had nowhere to run.

Eventually this influx of heretics, critics, contrarians, etc. fueled the rise of the more modern, less authoritarian, more free countries, like the US, or the Netherlands, or Switzerland, or the UK and France,. The descendants of Big Empires in Europe, like Russia, or the countries which were part of the Austro-Hungarian empire, or the German empire, were more authoritarian: it's not a coincidence that Communism took hold in Russia and the Nazis took over Germany (although Germany also had a previous history of small, semi-free city states).

You can easily see the difference in the results between a system of small, more or less independent city-states and a bigger, more authoritarian state in Italy: Northern Italy had small duchies, the medieval, almost democratic city-states, the Republic of Venice, etc., while Southern Italy was under the Spanish Empire for quite a long time, then under the control of the old aristocracy of Spanish origin under the Kingdom of Two Sicilies.

Compare Norther Italy, rich and rather modern in outlook, to Southern Italy, far poorer and socially traditionalist (Sicilian and Calabrian women wore veils until the '60s and '70s)

Today Germany and Austria have been so much de-Nazified that they're more or less on the level of France or the UK (also, in the case of Germany, drawing back on the tradition of city-states and becoming more federal), and it's the former communist countries which still have more problem with freedom of speech, liberal democratic institutions like separation of powers and separation of Church and State, etc.

Anyway, there's a lot of evidence that big, powerful, unified empires stifle criticism, dissent and innovation (ANY kind of innovation), while small, independent city-states allowed more freedom, at least by allowing critics and heretics to move there and stay out of the grip of the Big Powers. Even in China the cultural decline started with a more and more powerful central authority, which stifled, for example, the Zhang He expeditions in the Indian Ocean, while competition between different powers (Portugal, Spain, France, England, etc.) allowed the European colonization of the Americas.

Leaving aside the moral considerations on the European colonization, the New Idea of traveling across the Atlantic (to "reach the Indies") was implemented only because Columbus could travel from one country to another to pitch his proposal (which he did). A Chinese explorer, like Zhang He, had no second options, if the Chinese emperor nixed his ideas, his project was toast.

An innovator, or heretic, or free thinker, or even an explorer who was born in Tunis, Damascus, or Istanbul, instead of in Genoa, Marseilles, or London, had to hope that their New Ideas would encounter the favor of the Sultan, and of the court, and of countless other influential bigwigs and bureaucrats, and didn't piss off any of them, and if their pitch was rejected, or even worse considered to be a threat, they had no second choice but to either shut the hell up or risk their neck.

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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one

#6947

Post by Brive1987 »

Kirb, defining the dominant culture establishes the norms and refutes multi culturalism. It is the basis of the ethno-state. Not that I’ve embraced the term for Australia.

The ponzu economy is not about cheap labour. It’s about building roads and houses and shit to accommodate them thus boosting GDP without actually making the average joe any wealthier. Then rinse and repeat. It is evil. But also the basis for our liberal (Tory) Govts support of mass immigration.

Re limiting foreign ownership. Social democratic or national socialist? Joking aside. Stopping selling off our national treasure is a nationalist approach.

The religious schools question follows from our heritage. RC and Anglican schools were and are a thing. Muslim schools have no place here. Fit in or fuck off.

Religious prayers and swearing ins are also traditional here. Where they occur it should be cultural Christianity which is embraced.

Re immigration. By culturally aligned I’m thinking more Western Europe, SA, NZ than Africa or the orient. Strangely enough.

Basically what I’m arguing for is an end to the current aborted experiment, a return to the cultural norms of 1970 and an aggressive and intentional reset of the cultural house rules.

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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one

#6948

Post by Kirbmarc »

There are countless ways why the unity of the muslim world can be shown to be what made it more impervious to change. To cite just a very practical example, the fact that Classic Arabic has been the literary language of most of the muslim world for several centuries, and that Classic Arabic literature has been under religious control, has stifled scientific, literary, even philosophic innovation so much that even today literacy levels in many Middle East and North African countries are very low, especially for women, and translations of foreign works are even rarer.

Islam acts as a drain on intellectual curiosity, on exchange of ideas, on innovation, on cultural contact. All centralized, unified ideologies or religions do. Stifling dissent produces stasis and decline.

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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one

#6949

Post by Kirbmarc »

I'm convinced that just like Europe didn't start to grow and improve under the Enlightenment until after the French Revolution, and so after killing some kings and priests and bishops, and after aggressively targeting the church and the kings, it is necessary for the muslim world to have its own share of revolutions, and probably for some kings or imams to lose their heads (the Saud dynasty and the Wahabi leadership look like possible candidates for some pruning, and I wouldn't mourn their loss).

But it has to happen internally, from young Arabs to do it on their own. Foreign invasions never work to "spread democracy" where there are no basic structures for democracy to happen internally, it's like building a castle made of sand.

Anyway I'd just be happy if Western leftists stopped being whores for Saudi or Qatari interests by supporting their lobbies/movements/propaganda newspapers, and instead encouraged dissent against religious authorities in the muslim world.

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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one

#6950

Post by Old_ones »

MarcusAu wrote:
Old_ones wrote: The puritans were post-reformation and they were zealous persecutors of heresy and witchcraft. Even the Presbyterians, who are tepid mainline protestants by modern standards were a problem for the framers of the constitution, and were opponents of the separation of church and state. Yes, I think it was our modern system of constitutional representative government that did this. No, it did not have anything to do with the internal merits of Christianity.
Yeah - but without god all things are possible.

It's important to remember that as well as the Englightenment, europe also gave us the Counter-Englightenment - so on balance nothing was gained.
As far as I'm concerned this is completely true, and it's a serious problem. If we want to make progress we do have to decide what we value, and what constitutes progress. I've been pretty harsh on Jordan Peterson recently, but this is where I think he is right. If you are going to get rid of a belief system like christianity, you need something else for people to latch on to. He credits Nietzsche with predicting the rise of nihilism and totalitarian ideologies in the absence of a well established religion, and that fact seems self evident at this point. So if you agree with me, and don't want christian culture back, maybe you have to contend with the fact that people need some kind of mythology to live their lives by, and that Islam and communism are both worse options than christianity.

Bhurzum
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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one

#6951

Post by Bhurzum »

Old_ones wrote: So if you agree with me, and don't want christian culture back, maybe you have to contend with the fact that people need some kind of mythology to live their lives by...(snip)
https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/3MAAAOSw ... s-l300.jpg

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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one

#6952

Post by ThreeFlangedJavis »

Brive1987 wrote:
Fri Mar 23, 2018 3:56 pm
CaptainFluffyBunny wrote: Brive, would you mind succinctly summarizing what exact measures you are in favor of? I'm afraid I don't really watch the young ladies of alt-lite that get posted. Where do you stand on existing non-white populations in western-oriented nations? Are you just advocating a immigration ban or something more severe?
You don’t have to be a star footballer with pragmatic solutions in order to point out a losing team.

But I have in the past listed stuff that appears to be common sense.

In the Australian context stuff along the lines of.

Establish hard borders
Acknowledge that the dominant culture in Australia is Western European with a focus on UK. This is a historical reality.
Stop trying to make Sydney a global city (which ostracises the local inhabitants)
Stop pushing a ponzi economy based on continuous sugar hits of mass low quality or un-needed immigrants
Stop selling our land, property and assets to overseas interests. Did you know China owns the Port of Darwin?
Stop allowing Chinese funded cultural programs in local schools
No religious schools outside of the hitherto existing Judeo-Christian tradition we already had
Stop all social programs extending extra benefits based on cultural misalignment.
Zero tolerance for any demands for parallel legal systems
Focus on aid programs designed to assist countries in place - rather than accepting token refugees as blood money of a sort
Celebrate our history in primary school without the black armband. Take pride in where we came from and who we are.
Acknowledge that our national language is English and, where prayer etc is traditional, that it will be a Christian expression
Acknowledge that the gold standard is a nuclear family while acknowledging this isn’t always a possible outcome
Retain the existing and highly successful Constitutional Monarchy and retain our current constitution
Strike out hate speech laws
Reduce immigration to no more that 70K a year
Favour immigrants from culturally aligned societies with a prescribed leavening of exotica
Facilitate financially those residents and dual citizens who no longer want to participate in society and wish to legally relocate
Develop ties with New Zealand and the South Pacific rather than continue the American love lock.
Gas the Jews.
........

Now England may be worse off than we are and I wouldn’t even pretend to know in detail how to lance their boil.
Agree with most of that. Major departure over privileging Xtianity though. I do have a problem with the purists who divorce ethnicity or race completely from the equation and expect Westerners to be immune to the natural biases every group has. People need some sort of stability, the comfort of the familiar and some identification with their fellow citizens. It is unrealistic to expect that identity to come only from a shared philosophy. Maybe it isn't impossible, but taking a nation with a strong sense of it's own history,identity and racial characteristics and treating it like a blank slate is unlikely to end well. The problem with establishing a state religion is that it is too at odds with a rationalist worldview. It is difficult to claim to have reason as a fundamental and then privilege one belief in magic over another. Secularism is important.

All cultures change over time and I don't have any great hangups about protecting European culture from change. That change should happen naturally though, by immigration (when absolutely necessary) which is slow enough to allow integration and the adoption by "natural selection" of elements of immigrant cultures.

Keating
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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one

#6953

Post by Keating »

Old_ones wrote:
Sat Mar 24, 2018 2:35 am
I don't think Aristotle was worthless. The part that was worthless was the intellectually vacuous religion that promoted his ideas and burned his doubters at the stake for 1000 years. Yeah, christianity had value if you value stagnation as Jordan Peterson does. Otherwise, I don't see what value christianity has. The Pagan greeks were well on their way to discovering the scientific method almost 2000 years ago before christians halted all the intellectual progress in Europe for 1000 years. Without christianity I think the dark ages would have lasted about 200 years instead of 1000 years, but what is beyond debate is the fact that Europeans were individualists before christianity, and that they were pioneering science with a pagan worldview.
Granting your premise, how do you know that Christianity was the cause, rather than the dominant government system of Feudalism? Indeed, we point to the system of economics in the Soviet Union as the reason for lower scientific production, rather than atheism.

MarcusAu
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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one

#6954

Post by MarcusAu »

Old_ones wrote: As far as I'm concerned this is completely true, and it's a serious problem. If we want to make progress we do have to decide what we value, and what constitutes progress. I've been pretty harsh on Jordan Peterson recently, but this is where I think he is right. If you are going to get rid of a belief system like christianity, you need something else for people to latch on to. He credits Nietzsche with predicting the rise of nihilism and totalitarian ideologies in the absence of a well established religion, and that fact seems self evident at this point. So if you agree with me, and don't want christian culture back, maybe you have to contend with the fact that people need some kind of mythology to live their lives by, and that Islam and communism are both worse options than christianity.
I was being more than a little sarcastic in my comment. Actually I found your views rather a tonic - I think that 'Fuck Religion' is still a cry of liberation to much of the world.

As to whether mythology is necessary - I don't know - but it seems that one way or another people are going to create and believe in them. I'm with you on JP and christianity can f-f-f-fade away over time as far as I'm concerned (as can islam and communism). People seem to be putting a case for patriotism and civil nationalism or maybe marvel movies for their guide.

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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one

#6955

Post by fafnir »

Old_ones wrote:
Keating wrote: I’m fairly convinced the philosophical foundations of Christianity were necessary for the development of the scientific method. The idea that the mind of god was knowable and the patterns of the universe were there to be discovered. I’m currently trying to work out if the induction problem, a foundational axiom of science, relies on the idea of an omnicicient observers.

I’m certainly sure that to say it’s all worthless is wrong. The Bible doesn’t have a position on heliocentrism, for instance. The position Galileo was challenging was Aristotle’s, and was already 2000 years old at the time of the challenge. You could say Aristotle is all worthless, but, given how influential he was, I don’t think that’s fair. I don’t think it’s fair for Christianity either. Similar statements could be made about the Hindu or Confusion traditions, but I do think the Islamic golden age is dramatically overstated, contributing almost nothing.
I don't think Aristotle was worthless. The part that was worthless was the intellectually vacuous religion that promoted his ideas and burned his doubters at the stake for 1000 years. Yeah, christianity had value if you value stagnation as Jordan Peterson does. Otherwise, I don't see what value christianity has. The Pagan greeks were well on their way to discovering the scientific method almost 2000 years ago before christians halted all the intellectual progress in Europe for 1000 years. Without christianity I think the dark ages would have lasted about 200 years instead of 1000 years, but what is beyond debate is the fact that Europeans were individualists before christianity, and that they were pioneering science with a pagan worldview.
It's more than 2000 years ago. Between the death of Aristotle and Christianity having any kind of power is about 700 years. If another 700 years wasn't enough to get to the scientific method, how much time did the Classical world need? In as much as Greek philosophy was a remarkable period, it was clearly quite culturally specific. The right social, and economic forces were needed. Scientific progress between Aristotle and Constantine ending the official persecution of Christians was slow going without Christianity's help. The shift in thought that took us from the Greeks to the Scientific Method are non-trivial. Much of what the Greeks did in terms of mathematics, astronomy etc was done independently elsewhere, non of those cultures had the enlightenment. Doubtless the Enlightenment could have been achieved more quickly, but then the norm in most cultures and epochs is very slow/no progress. I think there is a profound lack of appreciation for what late medieval European culture achieved. Since then, it's been progress, progress, progress.

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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one

#6956

Post by MarcusAu »

I can't say about cultural anglicansim (or cultural-episcopalianism for the Americans - which I think has something to do with Deep One religion).

But I could see many SJWs converting to cultural-pentacostalism. Making random, incoherent noises while other people stand around giving them the attention they crave would seem to be exactly what they are looking for.

Guest_3bc53337

Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one

#6957

Post by Guest_3bc53337 »

I think Jordan Peterson's argument is against the "smash the patriarchy" type of change. If you destroy the status quo you can get something much, much worse. So I don't think he argues against any change, just the "tear it all down" type of change.

katamari Damassi
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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one

#6958

Post by katamari Damassi »

Kirbmarc wrote: The biggest difference between Christianity and Islam when it came to religious persecutions of dissenters and critics was that islam was more or less unified into big, sprawling empires, while Christianity was divided into cities, states, and eventually even colonies. It's not a coincidence that a lot of "heretics" in Europe took refuge in other countries, or in small city-states (like Zurich in Switzerland) or in overseas colonies. If the Vatican wanted your head you moved to Venice, or to Zurich. If a duke or baron in a German state wanted to throw you in jail you could move to another small state, or to a Dutch city. If you were in trouble in the United Kingdom, you could set sail for America. If France wanted to get of you, you could go to England (the Huguenots did it), etc.

On the other hand if you were in trouble with the authorities of the Ottoman Empire it was far harder to leave it and hide somewhere else. If you were in Tunis, or in Damascus, or in Istanbul, and the Sultans wanted your head because of something you had written, you pretty much had nowhere to run.

Eventually this influx of heretics, critics, contrarians, etc. fueled the rise of the more modern, less authoritarian, more free countries, like the US, or the Netherlands, or Switzerland, or the UK and France,. The descendants of Big Empires in Europe, like Russia, or the countries which were part of the Austro-Hungarian empire, or the German empire, were more authoritarian: it's not a coincidence that Communism took hold in Russia and the Nazis took over Germany (although Germany also had a previous history of small, semi-free city states).

You can easily see the difference in the results between a system of small, more or less independent city-states and a bigger, more authoritarian state in Italy: Northern Italy had small duchies, the medieval, almost democratic city-states, the Republic of Venice, etc., while Southern Italy was under the Spanish Empire for quite a long time, then under the control of the old aristocracy of Spanish origin under the Kingdom of Two Sicilies.

Compare Norther Italy, rich and rather modern in outlook, to Southern Italy, far poorer and socially traditionalist (Sicilian and Calabrian women wore veils until the '60s and '70s)

Today Germany and Austria have been so much de-Nazified that they're more or less on the level of France or the UK (also, in the case of Germany, drawing back on the tradition of city-states and becoming more federal), and it's the former communist countries which still have more problem with freedom of speech, liberal democratic institutions like separation of powers and separation of Church and State, etc.

Anyway, there's a lot of evidence that big, powerful, unified empires stifle criticism, dissent and innovation (ANY kind of innovation), while small, independent city-states allowed more freedom, at least by allowing critics and heretics to move there and stay out of the grip of the Big Powers. Even in China the cultural decline started with a more and more powerful central authority, which stifled, for example, the Zhang He expeditions in the Indian Ocean, while competition between different powers (Portugal, Spain, France, England, etc.) allowed the European colonization of the Americas.

Leaving aside the moral considerations on the European colonization, the New Idea of traveling across the Atlantic (to "reach the Indies") was implemented only because Columbus could travel from one country to another to pitch his proposal (which he did). A Chinese explorer, like Zhang He, had no second options, if the Chinese emperor nixed his ideas, his project was toast.

An innovator, or heretic, or free thinker, or even an explorer who was born in Tunis, Damascus, or Istanbul, instead of in Genoa, Marseilles, or London, had to hope that their New Ideas would encounter the favor of the Sultan, and of the court, and of countless other influential bigwigs and bureaucrats, and didn't piss off any of them, and if their pitch was rejected, or even worse considered to be a threat, they had no second choice but to either shut the hell up or risk their neck.
That sounds like Guns, Germs, and Steel, which we now know is SUUUUUUUPER racist! An androgyne on Youtube said so.

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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one

#6959

Post by MarcusAu »

Guest_3bc53337 wrote:
Sat Mar 24, 2018 5:22 am
I think Jordan Peterson's argument is against the "smash the patriarchy" type of change. If you destroy the status quo you can get something much, much worse. So I don't think he argues against any change, just the "tear it all down" type of change.
I've not seen the 500+ hours of the online lectures or watched all the interviews etc, etc - so I'll take your word for it.

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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one

#6960

Post by Hunt »

To be completely honest, I can't believe a 61 yo man cares.

https://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula ... /#comments

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