Steerzing in a New Direction...

[zou3gou3]

[SNIP]

https://swprs.org/face-masks-and-covid-the-evidence/

'Swiss Policy Research' sounds very respectable. Then you look at their website.

You're as slow, plodding, and predicable as Russian battalion-level tactics. That page is a compilation of links to for real mask studies. Address those. 'Debunk' even one of those.

People like you are dangerous. In another day and age, you'd be praising the 'science' of skull measurements and racial purity.

It's a list of studies that don't show any advantage in wearing a mask. Here's a study that recommends wearing FFP2/3 masks indoors. 'Debunk' that.
That list is on the same menu as their recommended "cures" for Covid: vitamins, zinc, dewormer, the favourites of Qultist Qunts. You do seem to have a strange fascination with RWNJ and conspiratorial media.

[ThreeFlangedJavis]

If Putin secures his ethnic and political goals at the West’s expense then China will do the exact same with Taiwan. And the American age will be over.

Putin's ethnic and political goals are already dead. His rhetoric about Ukrainians captive to CIA supported Nazis is exposed as a lie and he's managed to unite Europe and increase support for NATO in ways that nobody in the West has managed.

America has been sucking off Ukraine since 2014 and expanded NATO against all promises because you thought Russia was weak. You encouraged Ukraine to give up its nukes on the basis it’s borders were sacrosanct in the US Workd Order ™️

Who promised that NATO would not expand? This is an article of faith for many for which I have not seen any evidence. Gorbachev says it was never discussed outside of the context of Germany and NATO has been consistent in saying it would never make such deals. NATO is only a threat to Russia in Putin's head, one suspects partly because he knows that NATO membership puts a damper on his own expansionist ambitions. NATO does not expand by annexing countries, it only expands it's commitment of protection. Putin not so much.

Ukraine gave up their nukes because they couldn't use them and from everyone else's point of view they were a destabilising factor.

It is difficult for the US at the moment because there are so many pressures from different directions. There are competing narratives about permanent war and the Military Industrial Complex and American weakness and refusal to back it's values. I'm not sure what they should do myself. It's becoming harder to say exactly what American values are these days with drone happy presidents presiding over the calculated murder of families. Difficult to be the World's policeman when your moral authority is in doubt. Once we could support American action in defense of Western interest because it was obvious who the enemy was and what the stakes were. Now we worry about the morality of self-interested action but are faced with an existential threat from someone who never got the memo.

[John D]

No the context I referring to was me bagging out the use of ARs to offset small dick syndrome.

ARs are popular for offsetting inability to handle "Dirty Harry" style handguns. They're the opposite of poser weapons, easy to hadle, relatively light and accurate, hence their popularity for home defence.

ARs are reasonable home protection weapons. Everything depends on your skills and your safety plan. Sometimes a shotgun is best... and sometime a handgun. People should have options.

ARs are easy to fire with good accuracy. Little old ladies can get accurate fire with little training. They have great stopping power. The disadvantage is that the high velocity bullet can pass easily through objects (and bad guys) which risk injury to the innocent. The other downside is that they are a long gun... not as good in a tight space. Youall do know that an AR is just a semi-auto rifle with grips... right?

Shotguns are also easy to fire and it is easy to get a hit. They kick like hell however so a little old lady will get knocked on her ass (not good for setting up the second shot). Another downside is that they are not useful in a hostage precision situation. If a bad-guy has a gun to your wife's head you can't fix the problem with a shotgun. You will kill your wife and the bad guy if you shoot. They are also not good in tight spaces. The shot is not very likely to pass through objects which is an advantage.

Pistols are harder to shoot with accuracy. They are very good in close areas however. The lower speed bullet is also less likely to pass through objects (especially with a hollow point). Also, If you carry a pistol you will stay comfortable with it. You will potentially be best with the weapon you know best.

So, people should be able to choose their best option depending on their safety/defense plan.

My choice are my two Glock pistols. My carry pistol is a Glock 43 9mm (Suzie). I carry when I can but I can't wear it at work without risk of getting fired. When I can carry I do, even in the house... after all... what good is it to have a gun if you can't get to it? I keep my second Glock 17 (Sally) in a touch activated safe next to my bed. Both guns are comfortable for me. I shoot them regularly. I understand how they work. I can clear jams and shorts easily. They are always in my control and stay in battery at all times. In general, my home safety plan is to hunker down in my bedroom and call the cops. I am not going downstairs to "investigate". Curiosity killed the cat. I have a really large thick dresser I can stage behind if needed. The plan is to yell out that I am armed and I have called the police. In the very very odd chance that someone crazy breaks in and grabs my wife I will take the best shot I can. I will never surrender my weapon.

[John D]

[SNIP]

https://swprs.org/face-masks-and-covid-the-evidence/

'Swiss Policy Research' sounds very respectable. Then you look at their website.

You're as slow, plodding, and predicable as Russian battalion-level tactics. That page is a compilation of links to for real mask studies. Address those. 'Debunk' even one of those.

People like you are dangerous. In another day and age, you'd be praising the 'science' of skull measurements and racial purity.

It's a list of studies that don't show any advantage in wearing a mask. Here's a study that recommends wearing FFP2/3 masks indoors. 'Debunk' that.
That list is on the same menu as their recommended "cures" for Covid: vitamins, zinc, dewormer, the favourites of Qultist Qunts. You do seem to have a strange fascination with RWNJ and conspiratorial media.

I highly recommend "Signal and Noise" by Nate Silver for anyone who doesn't understand statistics. ZooGoo... this means you. I know Silver has been less than reliable on his political shit lately, but his book is really a great study of the meaning of stats ... studies... etc.

The problem with the story of "Well... there was this one study" is that most data are very noisy. There are many inputs that affect the measured output. In general this means that you need many repeatable studies to really know you have a signal. This also means that if you have a bunch of studies that show correlation and a few that do not that it is likely there is no real signal.

So.. in theory... if we have five studies that show masks are partially effective and three studies that show they are not effective... well... this really means mask are probably not effective. The five studies showing correlation just measured some noise factor that showed correlation.

There is a crisis in science right now. Many studies... including significant medical studies... are not reproducible. Much of medical practice is based a a few small studies and assumptions. Some of these practices even have contradictory studies completed... but people like to think they know what they are doing (especially doctors).

Some personal medical history. My doctor doesn't like my 145 blood pressure. He is convinced I should have a target of 130. Maybe he is right. I am not going to say I am so smart to know. But, I have done a bunch of reading on this. The main study on BP was one that was conducted on people who have had a stroke. They correlated BP levels with your chance of having a second stroke. There is good correlation that people over 140 or so have a higher likelihood of a second stroke. But, there has been no good study on BP levels and having your FIRST stroke. You really have to use your imagination to claim that I should lower my BP to prevent stroke. This may be true... yes... but it may not be true. Stroke is often a genetic issue and I have no heart disease in my family. I may actually be harming myself if I use BP medications since all medications have side affects. This is really weak "science".

The examples abound regarding bad "studies" and the assumptions for medical treatment. Just think about the "food pyramid", or the bad recommendations for kidney stone sufferers, or the amount of water you need to drink... etc...etc...etc...

[fuzzy]

So yeah I thought when my legal situation was resolved I would regale my pyt friends with stories, but instead I just felt like I had been having the s*** beat out of me for three years, but now it's been another year so I'm going to start by talking about one time when ...

I was pulled over for a minor traffic infraction and learned that one of my troublesome neighbors had sworn out a warrant for me, and I was treated really really well by an extremely polite State Trooper who of course had to bring me in because that's what the warrant orders him to do. Probably he recognized me as a pleasant guy from previous encounters.. His folks run a diner just down the road from this RPM ministries, and me. Here his twin brother in the same unit has just pulled over some poor sap who was until this occasion a deputy, but a breakup with his wife had resulted in a drop too many and a swerve. Lots of comments in the video about how he's being too nice, up to and including a weapon courtesy, and I'm thinking yeah his mama raised a couple of really polite young men. Haha.

[zou3gou3]

John D wrote

He is convinced I should have a target of 130.

That's very optimistic, but 90/140 should be achievable. I'm on 3 different blood pressure medicines. They weren't having the desired effect so I ran my own study, trying different combinations, doses and times (0800, 1000,1800), recording everything in excel. When I was happy I presented the results to my doc. She was surprised but okayed it. Maybe you should talk to your doctor about trying various treatments.
As for masks, I have COPD so need to care for my lungs. I tested positive for Covid, but didn't even realise I was infected. I must have picked up the virus on my hand and rubbed my eye (so washing your hands is still necessary). For 2 days I had an itchy and weeping eye and that was it. I don't wear a mask in the open air (not necessary), but I'm convinced wearing one indoors protects me — and others if I'm infected.

[fuzzy]

So yeah, here's another one. Obamacare started in 2014 and changed everything in ways I'll discuss somewhere else maybe, but I want to let everyone in the pit know that our own Fascist Tit advised me and helped me acquire equipment without having to navigate the insurance paperwork, and still surviving from when he sent me that stuff right to the address where my disaster broke in 2018 have this mighty fine respironics s8 he gave me so I want everyone to know that our It is a good man.

[John D]

John D wrote

He is convinced I should have a target of 130.

That's very optimistic, but 90/140 should be achievable. I'm on 3 different blood pressure medicines. They weren't having the desired effect so I ran my own study, trying different combinations, doses and times (0800, 1000,1800), recording everything in excel. When I was happy I presented the results to my doc. She was surprised but okayed it. Maybe you should talk to your doctor about trying various treatments.
As for masks, I have COPD so need to care for my lungs. I tested positive for Covid, but didn't even realise I was infected. I must have picked up the virus on my hand and rubbed my eye (so washing your hands is still necessary). For 2 days I had an itchy and weeping eye and that was it. I don't wear a mask in the open air (not necessary), but I'm convinced wearing one indoors protects me — and others if I'm infected.

I was on Losartan but it made really loopy. We switched to Amlodipine which is a calcium channel blocker. My resting BP has been128 over 75 when I tested at home. It seems to be working. It does cause me to have a really dry mouth, especially when I sleep.

[John D]

You know Zoogoo - the fact that you wore a mask and still got the Coof suggests that masks don't work... Just sayin.

[Keating]

There should have been thousands of randomised control studies over the last two years. It's a tragedy there weren't. At best we can say we still don't know, but the signal isn't very strong.

It wasn't a tragedy, it was intentional.

Well, no, I don't think there's an intentional cabal of scientists just refusing to look into things. There is, however, a group think that exists since most academics are part of the same class. This was most obvious in the way modelling was done:



Indeed, this is the point I was trying to make to Steersman with the parapsychology study. That study is amazing because a believer in parapsychology and a disbeliever worked together to come up with a methodology for definitively proving the issue one way or the other, and the believer still found evidence for it, and the disbeliever didn't. I suspect this is the placebo effect working at the level of the investigation as well: It's easy to find what you believe to be true.

[zou3gou3]

You know Zoogoo - the fact that you wore a mask and still got the Coof suggests that masks don't work... Just sayin.

Sars-Cov-2 isn't specifically a disease of the lung — , but because it is usually inhaled, that is where it most often attacks.

[fafnir]

Well, no, I don't think there's an intentional cabal of scientists just refusing to look into things.

You have something similar in media, where everybody walks in lock step and effectively some topics and some opinions are excluded. On the one hand, that is a lot of individual people making individual choices with a set of incentives and constraints. On the other hand, the people at the top are relatively few and, if all of this is just bottom up unguided behaviour, why do the WEF keep publishing their plans to steer this kind of thing? Is the idea of top down control just a LARP that the world leaders go to Davos every once in a while to play?

[zou3gou3]

I hadn't finished....
In my case the eye was infected. Funny after effect — my facial hair stopped growing for two weeks.

[John D]

There should have been thousands of randomised control studies over the last two years. It's a tragedy there weren't. At best we can say we still don't know, but the signal isn't very strong.

It wasn't a tragedy, it was intentional.

Well, no, I don't think there's an intentional cabal of scientists just refusing to look into things. There is, however, a group think that exists since most academics are part of the same class. This was most obvious in the way modelling was done:



Indeed, this is the point I was trying to make to Steersman with the parapsychology study. That study is amazing because a believer in parapsychology and a disbeliever worked together to come up with a methodology for definitively proving the issue one way or the other, and the believer still found evidence for it, and the disbeliever didn't. I suspect this is the placebo effect working at the level of the investigation as well: It's easy to find what you believe to be true.

Wow. This guy fucking nailed it. I am now officially a big fan.

One of my popular quotes with my friends is that I like to say "nothing fails like a model". I use this so often my friends finish saying it before I do. This topic comes up a lot, especially with Covid and climate and markets.

Personal old story. In 1994 I was working at a car company in the fuel department. I designed the fuel tank and filler. I actually have a patent on the filler design I made... so maybe youall can dox me now...haha. There were scores of people who used the finite element modeling method to predict crash performance. There are still scores of these people at all the car companies. They have gotten better over the years but not much better. The method has its limitations... especially in that the model is mathematically linear. It compresses very complex interactions into tiny finite linear reactions. I want to be clear. This is a VERY useful tool.

But...

It is just a model. It is not truth. So... one of the safety modelers informs me that I need to design a crash shield for my fuel filler. He thinks that my filler line will get severed in a crash event. He thinks the filler tube will move about 6 inches in a crash and it will get smashed by the body. He thinks this will result in a fuel spill during a crash. An agreement is reached that I will design this shield but we will not release it till after the physical crash test without the shield.

So... we run the physical crash test... which buy the way... is really fucking cool. You basically hook the car to a aircraft carrier style launch cable... pull it up to speed... and smash it against a wall. BANG! The noise is so cool. It is not like the movies. The noise is sharp and has tons of frequency content... some at a very high pitch... and it lasts less that a second. Not like the movies... BANG. Side note. There is an Allstate Insurance ad with a crash. It has the best sound I have ever heard on TV or movies for the sound of a crash. Chilling. Really. This ad really affected me since it was so accurate.

To continue. We run the crash test. The filler tube moves about 2 inches toward the part of the body that the modeler was worried about. There was still about 4 inches of clearance left. So, in my view this meant I didn't need a shield. You would have to drop the car off a cliff to get the whole 6 inches of collapse. Well... honestly... the modeler said "Well... the model was directionally correct... so we still need the shield."

In the end... the $4.50 on every car... well... it is not my money. That money (which over the vehicle life cost more than $5M) belonged to the company. I could make a recommendation and the modeler could make a recommendation. The bosses could decided what to do. In the end, the shield was added. There has never been and crash induced fire on this model of vehicle. What does this mean? Did the shield cause the vehicle to be safe? No one can say. I believe the vehicle was safe without the shield.

So... ultimately... all models are wrong. They provide direction... and then you apply your desire to the outcome. "Well" the modeler said "The model is directionally correct." (how many climate modelers say the same thing every day? how many Covid modelers?... you get the picture)

[John D]

I hadn't finished....
In my case the eye was infected. Funny after effect — my facial hair stopped growing for two weeks.

Wow. That is pretty interesting... and I agree that you may have poked yourself in the eye with the Coof. I understand it can infect any membrane... well.. this is what the science says. But... not shaving for two weeks is a benefit... haha.

[Brive1987]

Tis good.

[Brive1987]

If Putin secures his ethnic and political goals at the West’s expense then China will do the exact same with Taiwan. And the American age will be over.

Putin's ethnic and political goals are already dead. His rhetoric about Ukrainians captive to CIA supported Nazis is exposed as a lie and he's managed to unite Europe and increase support for NATO in ways that nobody in the West has managed.

America has been sucking off Ukraine since 2014 and expanded NATO against all promises because you thought Russia was weak. You encouraged Ukraine to give up its nukes on the basis it’s borders were sacrosanct in the US Workd Order ™️

Who promised that NATO would not expand? This is an article of faith for many for which I have not seen any evidence. Gorbachev says it was never discussed outside of the context of Germany and NATO has been consistent in saying it would never make such deals. NATO is only a threat to Russia in Putin's head, one suspects partly because he knows that NATO membership puts a damper on his own expansionist ambitions. NATO does not expand by annexing countries, it only expands it's commitment of protection. Putin not so much.

Ukraine gave up their nukes because they couldn't use them and from everyone else's point of view they were a destabilising factor.

It is difficult for the US at the moment because there are so many pressures from different directions. There are competing narratives about permanent war and the Military Industrial Complex and American weakness and refusal to back it's values. I'm not sure what they should do myself. It's becoming harder to say exactly what American values are these days with drone happy presidents presiding over the calculated murder of families. Difficult to be the World's policeman when your moral authority is in doubt. Once we could support American action in defense of Western interest because it was obvious who the enemy was and what the stakes were. Now we worry about the morality of self-interested action but are faced with an existential threat from someone who never got the memo.

We are about to get pedantic aren’t we? If Germany becomes NATO - following which NATO’s jurisdiction won’t sift east “one inch” - where does Poland fit in?



Ukraine gave up its nukes at America and Russia’s bequest via the Budapest Momorandum signed by Russia, UK, USA. Said parties assured Ukraine’s borders in return. It provides an expression of principle as well as a firm basis of justification for action, if not a legal requirement. More fool the Ukrainians for having any confidence in the States.

Your last para is a bit of a salad. Luckily Russia has made the political, military and ideological imperatives crystal clear. But I’d agreed, America is well past prime.

[Brive1987]

Half the keys on my iPad either don’t work or do occasional random shit. Especially the centre ones “H” in particular. 🤷‍♂️

[Service Dog]

The Rifleman premiered 6 years into Eisenhower's presidency, and ended between the Cuban Missile Crisis & ended before JFK did.

Here's a more contemporary story.

[Brive1987]

Nb there is a world of difference between “and Germany’s jurisdiction would not shift 1 inch east” and what was actually said:

“And NATO’s jurisdiction … “

That expands the conversation well past a unified Germany.

[John D]

Winsberg is a sharp guy. Not a great speaker, but this is worth some time if you care to understand modeling and modeling errors.

[free thoughtpolice]

Rambo is enraged that he has to wear face masks and get vaxxed. He has only known that Col. Troutman lied to him about wars in Vietnam, Afghanistan, Washington State, and other exotic locations.
He wants to fight for Freedumb!

[Matt Cavanaugh]

No the context I referring to was me bagging out the use of ARs to offset small dick syndrome.

ARs are popular for offsetting inability to handle "Dirty Harry" style handguns. They're the opposite of poser weapons, easy to hadle, relatively light and accurate, hence their popularity for home defence.

I know what you're thinking: "Did he fire 28 shots or only 27?" Well, to tell you the truth, in all this excitement, I've kinda lost track myself.

[Matt Cavanaugh]

He wants to fight for Freedumb!

So, Another Lurker and I have been discussing how weak men embrace obedience to authoritarianism, because it provides them power and control over others that otherwise would be unattainable for them. Thank you, FTP and zoo goo, for providing further data points!

[John D]

He wants to fight for Freedumb!

So, Another Lurker and I have been discussing how weak men embrace obedience to authoritarianism, because it provides them power and control over others that otherwise would be unattainable for them. Thank you, FTP and zoo goo, for providing further data points!

Fact: Men who use the tactics of women to secure their power in the world are pathetic.

[Matt Cavanaugh]

Which is America’s best reason-based-approach? Does it require the dismemberment of Czechoslovakia into Herman and non German speaking lands? Again. I might be muddling detail here.

Not exactly sure what you're asking.

Team Joe's foreign policy 'experts' could fuck up a Polish wedding. Letting Dementia Joe announce that nothing would be done in response to a "minor incursion" pretty turned this hand into a Null Ouvert. But I believe they wanted Russia to invade Ukraine, and would be quite pleased if it fell. With the bonus splash damage of once again hanging Kamala out to dry.

Realpolitik dictates you acknowledge your foe's strengths, and deal accordingly. No matter that he's Bad Man Bald. It seems that Putin's 'stretch goal' was a union of Russia, Belarus, and Ukraine. The US and West should've told him get stuffed on that one, but counter with a reasonable compromise of no NATO membership for Ukraine, plus recognition of Russian annexation of Crimea, plus independence (read: Russian puppet states) in the Donbas. Then warn him if he invaded Ukraine after that, we'd Fuck Him Up and personally piss on his irradiated corpse. In so many words. Reagan did well vs. the Soviets cuz the Soviets (Andropov especially) truly believed Reagan was crazy enough to nuke them.

I still think the compromise deal is still worth pitching, but unfortunately all threats of escalation, real or feigned, have been ruined by the West's public proclamations of what they won't under any circumstances do. So Brinkmanship has been replaced with 'here I am, bent over, my sphincter relaxed -- take me, you scoundrel!'

Also, among all the emo, 'I stand with Ukraine' hashtag diplomacy, no one seems to be preparing for a scenario where, in a week or so, Ukraine is run by Putin's Quisling.

[Matt Cavanaugh]

Half the keys on my iPad either don’t work or do occasional random shit. Especially the centre ones “H” in particular. 🤷‍♂️

So you can't do 'H.' You're a Russian!

[zou3gou3]

The last time I was following the Russian invasion of an East European country, this was one of my favourite songs.

[Brive1987]

Which is America’s best reason-based-approach? Does it require the dismemberment of Czechoslovakia into Herman and non German speaking lands? Again. I might be muddling detail here.

Not exactly sure what you're asking.

Team Joe's foreign policy 'experts' could fuck up a Polish wedding. Letting Dementia Joe announce that nothing would be done in response to a "minor incursion" pretty turned this hand into a Null Ouvert. But I believe they wanted Russia to invade Ukraine, and would be quite pleased if it fell. With the bonus splash damage of once again hanging Kamala out to dry.

Realpolitik dictates you acknowledge your foe's strengths, and deal accordingly. No matter that he's Bad Man Bald. It seems that Putin's 'stretch goal' was a union of Russia, Belarus, and Ukraine. The US and West should've told him get stuffed on that one, but counter with a reasonable compromise of no NATO membership for Ukraine, plus recognition of Russian annexation of Crimea, plus independence (read: Russian puppet states) in the Donbas. Then warn him if he invaded Ukraine after that, we'd Fuck Him Up and personally piss on his irradiated corpse. In so many words. Reagan did well vs. the Soviets cuz the Soviets (Andropov especially) truly believed Reagan was crazy enough to nuke them.

I still think the compromise deal is still worth pitching, but unfortunately all threats of escalation, real or feigned, have been ruined by the West's public proclamations of what they won't under any circumstances do. So Brinkmanship has been replaced with 'here I am, bent over, my sphincter relaxed -- take me, you scoundrel!'

Also, among all the emo, 'I stand with Ukraine' hashtag diplomacy, no one seems to be preparing for a scenario where, in a week or so, Ukraine is run by Putin's Quisling.

You mentioned you thought there were ways of winning that didn’t involve the application of force. Given the Putin/Biden dynamic, I’m still wondering what they might be.

[Brive1987]

Maybe “winning” is too strong a word. Stopping the conflict on terms acceptable to Ukraine and Russia might be more accurate, though no less problematic.

[Brive1987]

Yulia Levchenko is trapped in Kiev. And she’s pissed with the Russians.



https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/news.in ... s/amp/8666

[ThreeFlangedJavis]

If Putin secures his ethnic and political goals at the West’s expense then China will do the exact same with Taiwan. And the American age will be over.

Putin's ethnic and political goals are already dead. His rhetoric about Ukrainians captive to CIA supported Nazis is exposed as a lie and he's managed to unite Europe and increase support for NATO in ways that nobody in the West has managed.

America has been sucking off Ukraine since 2014 and expanded NATO against all promises because you thought Russia was weak. You encouraged Ukraine to give up its nukes on the basis it’s borders were sacrosanct in the US Workd Order ™️

Who promised that NATO would not expand? This is an article of faith for many for which I have not seen any evidence. Gorbachev says it was never discussed outside of the context of Germany and NATO has been consistent in saying it would never make such deals. NATO is only a threat to Russia in Putin's head, one suspects partly because he knows that NATO membership puts a damper on his own expansionist ambitions. NATO does not expand by annexing countries, it only expands it's commitment of protection. Putin not so much.

Ukraine gave up their nukes because they couldn't use them and from everyone else's point of view they were a destabilising factor.

It is difficult for the US at the moment because there are so many pressures from different directions. There are competing narratives about permanent war and the Military Industrial Complex and American weakness and refusal to back it's values. I'm not sure what they should do myself. It's becoming harder to say exactly what American values are these days with drone happy presidents presiding over the calculated murder of families. Difficult to be the World's policeman when your moral authority is in doubt. Once we could support American action in defense of Western interest because it was obvious who the enemy was and what the stakes were. Now we worry about the morality of self-interested action but are faced with an existential threat from someone who never got the memo.

We are about to get pedantic aren’t we? If Germany becomes NATO - following which NATO’s jurisdiction won’t sift east “one inch” - where does Poland fit in?



Ukraine gave up its nukes at America and Russia’s bequest via the Budapest Momorandum signed by Russia, UK, USA. Said parties assured Ukraine’s borders in return. It provides an expression of principle as well as a firm basis of justification for action, if not a legal requirement. More fool the Ukrainians for having any confidence in the States.

Your last para is a bit of a salad. Luckily Russia has made the political, military and ideological imperatives crystal clear. But I’d agreed, America is well past prime.

By Gorbachev's own admission the discussion with Baker was applicable to German territory only. The fact remains that NATO has always been adamant about not making deals with a 3rd party to exclude anyone.

The Budapest Memorandum was criticised even at the time for being too vague to bind the parties to any particular action. Nobody was quite sure if it bound anybody to do anything other than bitch to the UN.

[ThreeFlangedJavis]

Nb there is a world of difference between “and Germany’s jurisdiction would not shift 1 inch east” and what was actually said:

“And NATO’s jurisdiction … “

That expands the conversation well past a unified Germany.

The discussion was about NATO presence inside a unified Germany. Go argue with Gorbachev who says that the wider issue of NATO in the East was not discussed.

[ThreeFlangedJavis]

Realpolitik dictates you acknowledge your foe's strengths, and deal accordingly. No matter that he's Bad Man Bald. It seems that Putin's 'stretch goal' was a union of Russia, Belarus, and Ukraine. The US and West should've told him get stuffed on that one, but counter with a reasonable compromise of no NATO membership for Ukraine, plus recognition of Russian annexation of Crimea, plus independence (read: Russian puppet states) in the Donbas. Then warn him if he invaded Ukraine after that, we'd Fuck Him Up and personally piss on his irradiated corpse. In so many words. Reagan did well vs. the Soviets cuz the Soviets (Andropov especially) truly believed Reagan was crazy enough to nuke them.

I still think the compromise deal is still worth pitching, but unfortunately all threats of escalation, real or feigned, have been ruined by the West's public proclamations of what they won't under any circumstances do. So Brinkmanship has been replaced with 'here I am, bent over, my sphincter relaxed -- take me, you scoundrel!'

That would have been the most practical solution. Best of all would have been to push Ukraine into accepting the Federal solution the Russian separatists originally asked for.

Been digging further into Ukraine's recent history and it's time to admit I've been fooled by propaganda. Putin actually has a point about Ukraine's neo-Nazi problem and the treatment of the separatists. In 2014 the Odessa police were involved in a false flag op where they posed as federalist protesters and killed Maidan protesters. The Maidan protesters then burned alive federalist protesters in a brutal revenge attack. It was all swept under the rug. The Azov battalion were almost certainly involved in the Maidan protests in Kyiv which toppled Yanukovych and probably responsible for some of the shootings. Since then neo-Nazis have ascended to prominent govt positions, a violent far right group, C14, works with authorities in major cities in a security capacity and they have carried out attacks on Romany camps with no consequences. Zelensky met with the Azov leadership in an attempt to get them to cease violence against Russian separatists but he failed. He has since had to accede to neo-Nazi units taking a lead role in the Ukrainian defence forces. Zelensky is the Jewish fig leaf the media are holding up as a counter to the neo-Nazi allegations.

Putin is still a sociopathic shit, though. I've just added Victoria Nuland and the State Dept to my list of unconscionable shits, which I sort of knew they were, but I didn't think they were quite this bad. Nuland, with typical neocon arrogance, thought she could impose her will on Ukraine without regard for the reaction of local interests. The US Congress tried to prevent arms sales going to the neo-nazis in 2018 but the policy was reversed for some reason. TBH Putin has every right to pissed off, but flattening Ukraine is probably not the most reasonable response.

[Matt Cavanaugh]

You mentioned you thought there were ways of winning that didn’t involve the application of force. Given the Putin/Biden dynamic, I’m still wondering what they might be.

Ramping up US oil production and stop buying oil from Russia would be a start.
Not relying on Russia to broker our nuclear weapons deal with Iran couldn't hurt.
Getting cozy with Putin's BFF, Maduro might not be the best idea right now.
Economic sanctions on Belarus should've been imposed Day One.

But I don't know what the full range of options are, because I don't know what's on Hunter's other laptop, the one the Russians have.

[Service Dog]

9 days ago I listened to Glenn Greenwald's podcast, hoping for reliable news or analysis about Ukraine.

Rather than specifics to this case, Greenwald described a Re-occurring Pattern-- following big, scary, seemingly-unstoppable events.

He gave the usual examples you'd expect: Saddam invading Kuwait, 9/11, Covid.

1. The variety of reactions narrows-down to very-few... entrenched positions, short-tempered when confronted with dissent.

2. Hoping for a quick, easy resolution from the discomfort of anxiety & suspense... we allow opportunists to implement excessive or counterproductive measures (which would be otherwise-unpopular/ under normal circumstances). Sacrificing our Rights (The PATRIOT Act), dubious military deployments, indiscriminate trillion dollar deficit spending.

And for 9 days... I've watched Greenwald's warning come-true.

Biden's State of The Union speech exemplified mindless Ukrainian-flag accessorizing.

And... the edgier contingent of rightwing Internet Commenters... preaching to the MAGA Boomers... has reduced the conflict to:

"I support Putin because he's against gender-transitioning children."

(That's not an exaggeration. I've encountered that specific sentiment, several times, each day. On Sun Mar 6-- today's viral version--is that Putin-is-great because his invasion rid Russia of PornHub, CNN, and Disney+.)

And... can you blame 'em? Especially given the Center-and-Progressive Left's recent track record-- such as the Russia Russia Russia/ boy-who-cried-Putin HOAX against Trump. Or the exaggeration of January 6... to justify FBI harassment of dissenters... as 'domestic terrorists'.

-----

A memory re-asserts itself... I was a teenager with vaguely-punk hair & a thriftstore overcoat... on the high school debate team with others like me. We loved citing Holiday in Cambodia lyrics: "as Biafra, J. said in 1980...", or Malcolm X, Hans Hermann-Hoppe, William S. Burroughs, Hunter S. Thompson... and Fuck Reagan, Fuck Thatcher. But when we visited Speaker's Corner in Hyde Park... the speakers deemed us to be "Americans" without qualification. Berating us with denunciations. I'm glad we didn't grovel... seeking approval from ranters who had no desire to judge us fairly. But I'm also wary... that we so-easily let Someone Else draw the battle lines... and we accepted the role of the Ugly Americans... "Ok, fine, you're right. America is everything you say it is! And I'm G. Gordon Liddy! So what are you gonna do about it, you fuckin' commie?! Cali-forn-ya!! Uber-Alles!!"

[Matt Cavanaugh]

Putin actually has a point about Ukraine's neo-Nazi problem

... Since then neo-Nazis have ascended to prominent govt positions ...

What about makes them neo-nazis?

[free thoughtpolice]

He wants to fight for Freedumb!

So, Another Lurker and I have been discussing how weak men embrace obedience to authoritarianism, because it provides them power and control over others that otherwise would be unattainable for them. Thank you, FTP and zoo goo, for providing further data points!

Fact: Men who use the tactics of women to secure their power in the world are pathetic.

While you were working in office jobs I was working in dangerous dirty work like sawmills, forestry (including fighting forest fires), construction, commercial fishing and others. Being socially responsible isn't weakness. The real girly men are office jockeys that retires to pissing around with pet horseys and pretend to be a cowboy.
Or even worse, a sawed off runt that is a life long office jockey that cries when he listens to crappy music, and trembles in fear in his own home of the boogeymen coming to get him so he needs guns to make him feel secure.
Don't you 2 sissy cocksuckers lecture anyone about who is a real man because neither of you are.

[Service Dog]

...neo-Nazi allegations.

I confess ignorance on the subject:

When I saw swastikas on UKR flags... it didn't bother me much. I figured it was somewhere on a spectrum... between:

1. a nearly-meaningless affection... like a Southern US school... whose sports team is called 'The Rebels'. (in which case: who gives a fuck.)
The swastika-team are just telling the bear-team... that they haven't forgotten grandma-getting-raped by an opposing army... in a prior century.

vs.

2. an actual alive-and-well Nazi ideology. Which-- my default assumption is-- that would be "Highly Contextual".
Such white gangs in american prisons... who actually bother to learn Hitler's talking-points. And their black prisoner counterparts...
who embrace Nation of Islam. Both sides are sincere in their kooky beliefs... but the whole thing is a product of the Prison environment.

And... (if I'm wrong about this/ my ears are open to hear dissenting opinions)... I'm not-inclined to care very-much about option #2.
If the Chinese invaded NY... I think I'd be ok with releasing Aryan Nation prisoners... and Black Hebrew Israelite prisoners... to fight as guerrillas...
even-if their reasons for fighting the Chinks are race-based.... and mine aren't.

---
So... the truth about UKR Nazis fall close-to my ignorant assumptions?
And... is my lack of concern about even ideological UKR nazis... wildly wrong?

[ThreeFlangedJavis]

Putin actually has a point about Ukraine's neo-Nazi problem

... Since then neo-Nazis have ascended to prominent govt positions ...

What about makes them neo-nazis?

Bullshit about Ukrainian ethnic supremacy, general tendency to persecute ethnic minorities. The usual stuff. There is the Azov's past (and maybe present) tendency to wear neo-nazi symbols and march around with torches. If you aren't comfortable with nazi then violent ultranationalist extremists will do.

The sudden failure of otherwise intensely fine-tuned white supremacist detectors is notable.

[Service Dog]

[Matt Cavanaugh]

dangerous dirty work like sawmills, forestry.
Don't you 2 sissy cocksuckers lecture anyone about who is a real man because neither of you are.
[/quote]
Typically, someone who constantly accuses others of being homosexual while trying prove he isn't by touting manly man activities ... is a closeted fag.

It's okay -- just embrace your true self.

[Matt Cavanaugh]

Bullshit about Ukrainian ethnic supremacy, general tendency to persecute ethnic minorities. The usual stuff.

Blondes in braids?

[John D]

He wants to fight for Freedumb!

So, Another Lurker and I have been discussing how weak men embrace obedience to authoritarianism, because it provides them power and control over others that otherwise would be unattainable for them. Thank you, FTP and zoo goo, for providing further data points!

Fact: Men who use the tactics of women to secure their power in the world are pathetic.

While you were working in office jobs I was working in dangerous dirty work like sawmills, forestry (including fighting forest fires), construction, commercial fishing and others. Being socially responsible isn't weakness. The real girly men are office jockeys that retires to pissing around with pet horseys and pretend to be a cowboy.
Or even worse, a sawed off runt that is a life long office jockey that cries when he listens to crappy music, and trembles in fear in his own home of the boogeymen coming to get him so he needs guns to make him feel secure.
Don't you 2 sissy cocksuckers lecture anyone about who is a real man because neither of you are.

Yeah sure... you were the kind of faggot mans-man who worked along side men and opened your ass to them. I am not trebling over here. If you don't want to have a gun I don't care. Maybe you will get shot one day... or maybe not. Your version of "socially responsible" is a woman's view that government should be your wet-nurse. Fuck that. The less laws the better in my view. Your fucking "government programs" almost always make things worse. "socially responsible" is a code word for big goevernment and less freedom. Fuck that. I can take care of myself and my own... thank you very much. oh yeah.... and suck my ass.

[John D]

Ethnic Ukrainians want to be part of a self governing country called Ukraine. This is not Nazi. This is the normal order of things in the 20th and 21st century. The Russians have slaughtered ethnic Ukrainians in the past and now Russians want to control their country ... again. I think it is time for them to have a piece of their own destiny. Putin calling them Nazi is a ploy to give his invasion legitimacy. Nationalism is on the rise... and it is a good thing.

[free thoughtpolice]

Fuck you you slanderous cunt.
You must have me mixed up with that dickless pal of yours. You have been attacking me with the pedo shit ever since I pointed out the creepy way he broadcast his teenage daughters masturbation habits over the internet. If you are trying to defend him for that and then dishonestly project that on someone else it makes you as much a creepy pervert as he is.
Go kill yourself you slumrat loser.

[Steersman]

He wants to fight for Freedumb!

So, Another Lurker and I have been discussing how weak men embrace obedience to authoritarianism, because it provides them power and control over others that otherwise would be unattainable for them. Thank you, FTP and zoo goo, for providing further data points!

Fact: Men who use the tactics of women to secure their power in the world are pathetic.

While you were working in office jobs I was working in dangerous dirty work like sawmills, forestry (including fighting forest fires), construction, commercial fishing and others. Being socially responsible isn't weakness. The real girly men are office jockeys that retires to pissing around with pet horseys and pretend to be a cowboy.
Or even worse, a sawed off runt that is a life long office jockey that cries when he listens to crappy music, and trembles in fear in his own home of the boogeymen coming to get him so he needs guns to make him feel secure.
Don't you 2 sissy cocksuckers lecture anyone about who is a real man because neither of you are.

I wasn't actually employed by any sawmills but I wound up installing various types of equipment in more than a few, mostly in BC and Oregon. Definitely dangerous places - my uncle told me of a case, presumably in BC, about an employee who fell into a chipper than turned him into a puree because it hadn't been properly locked out.

As for "real man", define "man". The only reasonable definition that makes any sense or is worth at least the paper it's printed on is "adult human male (produces sperm)". Which may well exclude many if not most of us here - including transwomen who've had their nuts removed - as some seven % of XYers are infertile.

What y'all are apparently talking about is "man" as a gender - by which some "adult human females" (XXers) may have more claim to membership in that category than some XYers.

[Steersman]

Ethnic Ukrainians want to be part of a self governing country called Ukraine. This is not Nazi. This is the normal order of things in the 20th and 21st century. The Russians have slaughtered ethnic Ukrainians in the past and now Russians want to control their country ... again. I think it is time for them to have a piece of their own destiny. Putin calling them Nazi is a ploy to give his invasion legitimacy. Nationalism is on the rise... and it is a good thing.

You might check out the "terror-famine" that Russia created in the Ukraine in 1932 that was responsible for several million dead:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor

I expect many Ukrainians have long memories and quite justifiably want nothing to do with the Russia. Not that there aren't some problematic Nazi tendencies in Ukraine - seem to recollect many sided with Germany in WW2, even if with some justification. "Existential threats" tend to erase finer moral distinctions; no moralists in foxholes, to coin a phrase.

[free thoughtpolice]

John Dickless wrote:

Yeah sure... you were the kind of faggot mans-man who worked along side men and opened your ass to them. I am not trebling over here. If you don't want to have a gun I don't care. Maybe you will get shot one day... or maybe not. Your version of "socially responsible" is a woman's view that government should be your wet-nurse. Fuck that. The less laws the better in my view. Your fucking "government programs" almost always make things worse. "socially responsible" is a code word for big goevernment and less freedom. Fuck that. I can take care of myself and my own... thank you very much. oh yeah.... and suck my ass.

Your response is pathetic and reeks of projection. You are obsessed with your asshole, keep begging people to suck it between crying like a little girl at showtunes and talking about your daughters sex life. Then you get angry, cry some more and claim others are the ones that are interested in that anal crap you apparently are.
When it finally dawns on you what a loser are try not to shoot yourself with your precious.
By the way, I've had guns all my adult life, enjoyed target shooting and harvesting wildlife to eat. I'm just don't have an unhealthy obsession with them like clinging on them for safety while having Charles Bronson fantasies

[Steersman]

LoL. "Ad Homs R Us"? 🙄

[free thoughtpolice]

He wants to fight for Freedumb!

So, Another Lurker and I have been discussing how weak men embrace obedience to authoritarianism, because it provides them power and control over others that otherwise would be unattainable for them. Thank you, FTP and zoo goo, for providing further data points!

Fact: Men who use the tactics of women to secure their power in the world are pathetic.

While you were working in office jobs I was working in dangerous dirty work like sawmills, forestry (including fighting forest fires), construction, commercial fishing and others. Being socially responsible isn't weakness. The real girly men are office jockeys that retires to pissing around with pet horseys and pretend to be a cowboy.
Or even worse, a sawed off runt that is a life long office jockey that cries when he listens to crappy music, and trembles in fear in his own home of the boogeymen coming to get him so he needs guns to make him feel secure.
Don't you 2 sissy cocksuckers lecture anyone about who is a real man because neither of you are.

I wasn't actually employed by any sawmills but I wound up installing various types of equipment in more than a few, mostly in BC and Oregon. Definitely dangerous places - my uncle told me of a case, presumably in BC, about an employee who fell into a chipper than turned him into a puree because it hadn't been properly locked out.

As for "real man", define "man". The only reasonable definition that makes any sense or is worth at least the paper it's printed on is "adult human male (produces sperm)". Which may well exclude many if not most of us here - including transwomen who've had their nuts removed - as some seven % of XYers are infertile.

What y'all are apparently talking about is "man" as a gender - by which some "adult human females" (XXers) may have more claim to membership in that category than some XYers.

What I'm talking about is masculine behavior versus effeminate behavior.
Speaking about sawmills being dangerous, I got assigned to chiptender once because the former chiptender got dragged in to the chipper by waste on the moving conveyer and got pureed as you put it. At another mill a dude lost his arm, at still another mill I witnessed a millwright lose half of his hand.
Forestry and logging I would rate as even more dangerous than millwork was in the old days, and fighting forest fires could get really dangerous.
Tops would be commercial fishing especially in certain seasons and areas. For example see the TV series The Most Dangerous Catch. I know more than a few people that lost their lives fishing as well as one guy that became famous for setting a record for length of survival in a survival suit. He spent more than 24 hours in 50 degree F water and
25 foot waves. Think about bouncing around while getting waterboarded with cold salt water for that length of time on top of hypothermia. He survived another 10 years or so but eventually died because of organ damage from the ordeal.

[Matt Cavanaugh]

John's more of a real man -- however anyone other than steerz wants to define it -- than you ever were, despite your blue collar bushido chest-thumping over glory days sniffing other working men's sweat.

Another thing: folks share personal stories here, sometimes less than flattering, on the understanding that at the end of the day, after all the arguing, the Pit is family. But you weaponized that personal info. You don't just want to debate, you want to hurt or embarrass. And that is as big a sign of any of weakness.

And cut the homophobic shit already. We don't care, cuz you're the only one here who considers being gay a diminishment. We get to tease each other, have Tom of Finland Fridays. You get to jerk off to RCMP porn.

All you've done since returning is pick personal fights with everyone except your fellow brownshirt wannabe, zoo goo. It won't make the miserable dead end your life has arrived at any less miserable. Go back to talking to the Dewars.

[fuzzy]

Fun fact: the first time I heard of this face blindness condition that our skeptic friend has, I thought to myself I've never heard of that but it sounds like my own problem. Prasapognosia is the spelling that comes out of the spell checker. It's easy to see how it leads quickly to social misunderstandings and vulnerable to second attacks from people you should ought to learn to stay away from even approaching etc etc

[Steersman]

John's more of a real man -- however anyone other than steerz wants to define it -- than you ever were, despite your blue collar bushido chest-thumping over glory days sniffing other working men's sweat. ....

LoL for the "bushido" word salad.

But it's hardly just my definitions for "man" and "woman" - you might actually try reading a dictionary and think about the logical consequences. Y'all are pretty much just as bad for quibbling over who qualifies as "real" men and women - a large part of the whole problem with the transgender clusterfuck.

FTP at least qualified his position by the use of "masculine" and "feminine" which most recognize as genders as opposed to sexes. As I pointed out in my Medium article on Wikipedia's Lysenkoism, the late Justice Scalia had a cogent analogy:

"Sex is to gender as male is to masculine, and as female is feminine."

Entirely different kettles of fish; would help a great deal if more people recognized and accepted the differences.

[Service Dog]

I was working in dangerous dirty work like sawmills, forestry

I'm impressed.

Standing next-to a wood-chipper is 50x more dangerous when you're blurting-out your sexual thoughts about another man's underage daughter.

[free thoughtpolice]

I was working in dangerous dirty work like sawmills, forestry

I'm impressed.


Standing next-to a wood-chipper is 50x more dangerous when you're blurting-out your sexual thoughts about another man's underage daughter.

You can't read? Im' not the one that is talking about the girl's sex life. That was your Dickless pal that was doing that. I was pointing out how creepy he was to do that.
You are an idiot that apparently can't comprehend the English language.

[free thoughtpolice]

John's more of a real man -- however anyone other than steerz wants to define it -- than you ever were, despite your blue collar bushido chest-thumping over glory days sniffing other working men's sweat.

Another thing: folks share personal stories here, sometimes less than flattering, on the understanding that at the end of the day, after all the arguing, the Pit is family. But you weaponized that personal info. You don't just want to debate, you want to hurt or embarrass. And that is as big a sign of any of weakness.

And cut the homophobic shit already. We don't care, cuz you're the only one here who considers being gay a diminishment. We get to tease each other, have Tom of Finland Fridays. You get to jerk off to RCMP porn.

All you've done since returning is pick personal fights with everyone except your fellow brownshirt wannabe, zoo goo. It won't make the miserable dead end your life has arrived at any less miserable. Go back to talking to the Dewars.

Talk about lack of self awareness and passive aggressive victim. You make nasty snide remarks and when someone comes back at you play the victim. Cry away brony boy.
You may have noticed or not but I will reply civilly unless attacked personally. When I get attacked I may or may not retaliate so suck it up snowflake.
And stop being a hypocrite about homophobic remarks "glory days about sniffing other men's sweat" or defending that vile manlet snivelling and telling others including men to suck his asshole.
You pick fights with everybody that doesn't agree with your often stupid ideas and you and you're 2 retarded amigos will continue insulting and gish galloping those people until they give up and moved. You 3 assholes have driven off most of the intelligent commenters that used to post here and have tried your best turn it into an echochamber where only a few are allowed comment.
I can only imagine if Abbie tried to post again at the site she actually started. If she made an unpopular remarks about vaccines, facemasks, or the origins of the coronavirus pandemic the dog and pony show would probably tell her that as a virus researcher she isn't qualified because she is funded by the CDC, or is probably a criminal that engages in dangerous gain of function research on possible bioweapons, Dickless would accuse her of working for the Communist Chinese, tell her to suck his asshole and then run away crying like a little girl.

[John D]

I was working in dangerous dirty work like sawmills, forestry

I'm impressed.


Standing next-to a wood-chipper is 50x more dangerous when you're blurting-out your sexual thoughts about another man's underage daughter.

You can't read? Im' not the one that is talking about the girl's sex life. That was your Dickless pal that was doing that. I was pointing out how creepy he was to do that.
You are an idiot that apparently can't comprehend the English language.

There is something truly disturbing about you ftp. I have shared lots of stories about my family. My daughter told me she had a very strong sex drive. I never spied on her. Do you think it is creepy that my daughter can share this story with me? I didn't ask her about it.

I have struggled with her choices. I recommend serial monogamy. It worked pretty well for me and works well for most people. My daughter has multiple sex partners at the same time. She feels free to tell me this, even though I advise her against it. Ultimately, she is an adult and can do whatever she wants. I care for her as much as anyone... but there is only so much a father can do to help an adult child. Hell... I pay some of her fucking bills.

The reason I tell you to "suck my ass" is that it pisses you off and I think it is funny. Haha. Maybe it is not funny to everyone... but it is to me. It is more offensive than telling someone to "suck my dick" which isn't really much of an insult anymore.

I accept that you may find my comments creepy. I accept that I have a slightly off center personality. I try to be honest... except when I am cursing you. Are you one of those people who has no sense of humor? I think this might be it. You really don't know how to laugh. Question... when you go to a comedy show are you the last one to laugh? Do you only laugh after you see others are laughing? There are lots of people like this. Are you one of them?

I also think you are some kind of ninny. You make broad claims about how the universe works and then you admit that you don't understand statistics. Get with the fucking program. If you are gonna make claims about medical studies you need to understand statistics. Just stop saying stoopid shit... really.

In any case... suck my ass!

[John D]

and ftp... I'm pretty sure you can't speak for Abbie... so yeah... you know the next line... dumb ass.

[John D]

Fun fact: the first time I heard of this face blindness condition that our skeptic friend has, I thought to myself I've never heard of that but it sounds like my own problem. Prasapognosia is the spelling that comes out of the spell checker. It's easy to see how it leads quickly to social misunderstandings and vulnerable to second attacks from people you should ought to learn to stay away from even approaching etc etc

Do you really not remember faces? I forget people's names quite a bit... I really work at this. But I remember faces pretty well.

and really - I think that we interact with lots of people. It is sometimes hard to remember the face or name of someone we met. It is not a mental disorder. It is just sometimes hard to remember stuff.

This generation wants to medicalize everything. My daughter thinks I am autistic.... and since she thinks I am autistic she can forgive me. and... I am like... I don't have a mental disease.... I just have a personality. My generation thought people had this thing called a "personality". I am not sure this new generation thinks about personality the way I do. Everything is a mental disorder these days.