Periodic Table of Swearing

[real horrorshow]

Commenter Setar on FTB:

This is war. There is no long and short about it, no “both sides”, no golden mean, no balance, no complexity. This is a war between those who would treat others as equals and rhetoric as a tool, and those who would treat others as subordinates and rhetoric as a weapon.

What was is that Thunderf00t said? You can't have a war on terror without a terrorist?

I'm confused... which side is which?

Dictionary Atheist to the rescue! It all depends on which definition of rhetoric you're using:

rhet·o·ric   [ret-er-ik] noun
1.
(in writing or speech) the undue use of exaggeration or display; bombast.
2.
the art or science of all specialized literary uses of language in prose or verse, including the figures of speech.
3.
the study of the effective use of language.
4.
the ability to use language effectively.
I like to noodle around at number four, but it seems the 'boons are at number for yet another week!

[rayshul]

Some what seem to be really serious allegations are being levied at Thunderf00t via Natalie Reed who is allegedly 'quitting' the a/s movement : http://freethoughtblogs.com/nataliereed ... 10/all-in/

I'm reminded of another type of people who make listsl ike that and use them to prove the END TIMES ARE NIGH.

THIS WEEKS GOLDEN FLOUNCE AWARD GOES TO...

Well, assuming this is a prelude to a flounce.

[franc]

Some what seem to be really serious allegations are being levied at Thunderf00t via Natalie Reed who is allegedly 'quitting' the a/s movement : http://freethoughtblogs.com/nataliereed ... 10/all-in/

Don't let the door hit your ass.

Fucken really. They mewl like it means something. It is beyond my comprehension how they can wallow in so much self-pity whilst at the same time demanding respect. Dumb as bags of ball bearings. 1 down, half a dozen to go.

[justinvacula]

Laden seemed to have been addressed, too, by Natalie:

It even eventually became to seem unsurprising amongst my own immediate colleagues (or former colleagues)… “men are testosterone-damaged women...

[Michael K Gray]

Laden seemed to have been addressed, too, by Natalie:

Starving rats eat their own.

[real horrorshow]

Some what seem to be really serious allegations are being levied at Thunderf00t via Natalie Reed who is allegedly 'quitting' the a/s movement : http://freethoughtblogs.com/nataliereed ... 10/all-in/

For starters, I really hope she's got some evidence for those accusations about Thunderf00t. I'm no American lawyer, but I think she's just publicly accused him of a felony. Is that right?

Secondly, I think the main reason Natalie's posts are so long is that it always takes her so many words to describe her own issues:

Transsexuality and transgenderism, my heroin addiction, stories from my life and past, my being a survivor of multiple rapes…I’ve even mentioned my being an incest survivor, an issue that’s incredibly, deeply painful for me.

Who it is she's mad at:

so many middle-class, white, cisgender, heterosexual, able-bodied men

And what she's fighting against:

the repulsive, suffocating degree of misogyny, sexism, transphobia, racism and anti-feminism

She's right about some things:

I saw in feminism a lot of repeated mistakes made due to a lack of critical inquiry and self-reflection, and rejection of the value of science and that kind of critical thought

But then she always throws in a caveat about feminism because a lot of feminists, especially rad-fems are down on trans people like her.
And some of her criticisms are pretty feeble:

That they choose this ONE civil rights issue to dedicate themselves to, because it’s the ONLY legitimate civil rights issue that actually effects them

What does she expect? That people will abandon their own legitimate concerns and rally to the barricades for her agenda? Call me hyper-sceptical, but I don't see that people work that way.

Atheism always seemed to me like such a small and narrow subset of skepticism.

Well, yes it is. And that's the problem, for her and all the others who want to hijack the 'movement' for their own list of pet social issues. Natalie spells Movement with a capital M. I don't, I put it in quotes. Because I'm (hyper) sceptical that it exists. If all people have in common is, what she concedes as, the straightforward (and negative) conclusion that here is no god. How can any reasonable person expect them to automatically unite on other issues? Especially when those issues are far more complex and subjective than atheism. More especially, when taking a stance on those issues puts people in the position of either agreeing that they 'damaged by testosterone' or face being labelled as 'rape apologists'?
If that's what you wanted Natalie, it's a good thing you've quit, because it was never going to happen.

[justinvacula]

Misogyny, sexism, cissexism, gender binarism, racism, able-ism… these things didn’t seem meaningfully different to me from pseudo-science, new age, woo, religious faith, occultism or the paranormal. All were human beings going for easy, intuitive conclusions based on what they most wanted or needed to believe, and on what most seemed to them to be true, without that moment of doubt, hesitation and humility that skepticism encourages.

Except pseudo-scientific claims aren't social issues and 'isms'...

Except claims of religious faith deal with epistemology...

Except many paranormal/supernatural claims are metaphysical issues countered by naturalism...

[justinvacula]

Natalie on Twitter:



"Annnnnd... that's probably about it for me and whatever goodwill I ever had from the atheist movement."

[Goatboy]

Commenter Setar on FTB:

This is war. There is no long and short about it, no “both sides”, no golden mean, no balance, no complexity. This is a war between those who would treat others as equals and rhetoric as a tool, and those who would treat others as subordinates and rhetoric as a weapon.

What was is that Thunderf00t said? You can't have a war on terror without a terrorist?

I'm confused... which side si which?

I’m always torn between amusement and depression when faced with such an utter absence of self-awareness. It’s funny, but at the end of the day these are real people, not turnips.

Early on in this kerfuffle (possibly even the “Always Name Names” thread), one Salty Current proclaimed that there were only two sides to this issue, the right side and the sexist side.

... and since Salty Current also believes that women who dare form opinions which are not in accordance with hers are “Gender Traitors”, it wasn’t exactly hard to figure out that it was her side which was the sexist side (if her false dichotomy were true).

[justinvacula]

Upcoming panels at Geek Girl Con. Will these be released on Youtube? :o

Saturday, Aug. 11th, 4:30 PM – 5:20 PM
Misogyny Online – RM205
Women who speak out online are often the targets of very nasty misogyny. Harmful, threatening, and degrading comments are all too common when a woman posts opinions in social media outlets or even on their own blogs. This panel will discuss how it happens, why it happens, and how to deal with it. An essential panel for women who have or want a strong Internet presence.
Presented by Jennifer McCreight, Amanda Marcotte, Desiree Schell, Heina Dadabhoy, Sophie Hirschfeld, Rebecca Watson, Amy Davis Roth

Sunday, Aug. 12th, 3:30 PM – 4:20 PM
Women and Skepticism – RM303
What is real and what isn’t? A panel of renowned skeptics will analyze some of the current claims marketed to or directed specifically at women. From psychics to super-antioxidant juices, this panel will show you how you can use the tools of skepticism to protect yourself, your family, and the contents of your wallet from pseudoscience and scams.
Presented by Rebecca Watson, Amanda Marcotte, Desiree Schell, Ericka M. Johnson, Jennifer McCreight, Cloe Ashton

[TedDahlberg]

Natalie on Twitter:



"Annnnnd... that's probably about it for me and whatever goodwill I ever had from the atheist movement."

Some self-awareness. That's progress, no?

[real horrorshow]

Commenter Setar on FTB:

This is war. There is no long and short about it, no “both sides”, no golden mean, no balance, no complexity. This is a war between those who would treat others as equals and rhetoric as a tool, and those who would treat others as subordinates and rhetoric as a weapon.

Setar from Natalie Reed's blog comments:

As I’ve been saying over and over, this is war. And all wars, sadly, have casualties. And your existing writing is still there for others to pound the assholes with.

A moment of silence, followed by a performance of the Last Post. You deserve it, Natalie.

He has been saying it too. Over and over and over. Setar seems to be channelling George Patton pretty much non-stop these days. Most of us, when we have our little fantasy interludes, watch a war film or fire up a game. Not old Setar though. He logs into FTB and strikes a noble, heroic posture.
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8427/7752 ... baabf3.jpg
Stop sniggering at the back!

[Dick Strawkins]

It's going to be interesting to see how Thunderf00t replies to these sort of accusations from Reed.
I get the distinct impression that the accusations about revealing her real name are simply a smokescreen.
I don't believe Thunderf00t would deliberately release her real name or email address (even people firmly on his side would consider that a shitty, Ladenesque, piece of behavior.)
There's obviously something particularly underhand that needs to be kept secret - hence the explosion of rage we see here, aimed at eliciting a feeling of sympathy for someone who, lets not forget, has made some serious allegations against Thunderfoot.

As an aside, are we talking about a real crime here?
Reed states that the various emails have clauses in them saying that they are confidential but PZ and Laden have long argued that this means nothing if you send an email to them. If Thunderf00t did release the contents of some FTB back channel chatter would that be illegal or just unethical/rude?

As for the announcement of her leaving the skeptical/atheist movement?
Was she ever part of it? I know she was a skepchick but that's hardly the same thing.

[justinvacula]

Thunderf00t responds in an epic manner.
http://thunderf00tdotorg.wordpress.com/ ... -a-pariah/

He takes digs at Greg Laden and reveals bullying from the #ftbullies. Should Ed now be added to make FC 5 (6) (7)?

Tf00t writes,

So Ed Brayton, thats the leader, or owner or something of freethoughtblogs is now referring to me in these terms:
“I want to do whatever it takes to make sure that he is essentially drummed out of this movement, never invited to speak anywhere again and is forever a pariah.”

Nor do they seem to realize that their main beef that I ‘stole their personal details‘ is clearly stupid. I, and everyone else on that mailing list, would have had all of those details (whatever they actually are, I still have no idea) anyways from when they originally signed me up to the mailing list. So what exactly are these personal details they think I’ve ‘stolen’ here? Secondly I DONT FUCKING DOC DROP. Even if I actually knew what this personal information was (I seriously have no idea who most these people are) I wouldn’t care, because: I DON’T DOC DROP. Never have done. Never will.

Honestly if I were in FTBs shoes I would worry about the other guy they expelled, Greg Laden, who also has access to all their personal data. He has a history of threatening people on FTB and stalking people elsewhere. Like tracking people down in real life and trying to get them fired (Abbie Smith of the blog ERV) etc etc. Notably this was all done while Greg was at FTBs.

Indeed it turned out that merely hours after this tweet, CFI Canada had been contacted with calls for his dismissal. Yes his real life job was being threatened because of one tweet about FTBs! That was a pretty disturbing turn of events having someones job targeted so quickly after a single tweet about FTBs, and after a brief chat with Michael, and knowing that FTB were going ballistic about this on their secret backchannel with some THIRTY messages being circulated on the backchannel about his single tweet, let him be privy to the appropriate details (all the important (personal) info in the headers and footers cut).

[Dick Strawkins]

Thunderf00t responds in an epic manner.
http://thunderf00tdotorg.wordpress.com/ ... -a-pariah/

If Ed Brayton is one of the "smartest people in this movement" :ugeek: (his words!) then may God help us all! :violin:

[Gumby not signed in]

I like Thunderf00t more and more. Ooh-rah! Good on him for exposing the truth about those vile conspiratorial backstabbers.

[justinvacula]

Blogger 'AtheistLogic' authors an interesting post in which he asks why people defend Ahlquist and not Skepchicks, Benson, etc.

http://atheistlogic.wordpress.com/2012/ ... ow-please/

I’m fucking tired of it, and honestly, I don’t even have to deal with it on a day-to-day basis. I can’t imagine what Natalie, Jen McCreight, Greta Christina, Ophelia Benson, Rebecca Watson, Elyse Anders, the rest of the Skepchick crew and probably dozens of other women (some of whom I probably haven’t even heard about yet) have to deal with on a day to fucking day basis. Not to mention women outside of the movement, like Anita Sarkeesian who are victims of the same Internet culture in which the Atheist Movement thrives. And yet we’ll turn to defend women like Jessica Ahlquist so long as the people threatening to rape her come from outside of the movement; and then quickly turn around and pat ourselves on the back for how much better we are towards the womenz.

...maybe, just for starters, because Ahlquist provided evidence of the threats she received and didn't just talk about them? Maybe because Ophelia's e-mails were demonstrated to not be threats? Maybe because Ahlquist has a good attitude and doesn't publish glib character attacks concerning those who may disagree with her?

[Notung]

...maybe, just for starters, because Ahlquist provided evidence of the threats she received and didn't just talk about them? Maybe because Ophelia's e-mails were demonstrated to not be threats? Maybe because Ahlquist has a good attitude and doesn't publish glib character attacks concerning those who may disagree with her?

Exactly.

[Scented Nectar]

Git, I know I could fake a real name, but I won't on a matter of principle. They shouldn't be asking people for that.

That is why I cancelled my account, even though I used a fake surname. I'm not at all comfortable with that.

They are also encouraging people to link their accounts together, google ones that is, so if you have a youtube channel or blogspot, they keep trying to get you to create, and link accounts to, G+.

And to both of you, get over your issues with swearing and alcoholic beverages, or keep it to yourself. It's beginning to get quite tiresome.

Hear, hear! Oops I fucked that up. Beer, beer!

I totally support recreational (but safe, like no driving) drinking and drugs. Also tasty food and internet access. It all fits under the Pleasure part of life. That's what we humans select for evolutionarily, it seems. We select for that which causes pleasure (tends to be things that cause better quality life and overall survival), and against the unpleasant or painful (tends to be things that cause shittier quality life and less survival).

That said, I think I have that gene unfortunately, which prevents me from being able to drink enough to get drunk. I can get to the one-drink (two if I'm pushing it) tipsy stage, the start of drunk, but no further or I just get physically sick at that point.

[rayshul]

Thunderf00t responds in an epic manner.
http://thunderf00tdotorg.wordpress.com/ ... -a-pariah/

Holy fucking shit they're a total freaky scientology thing.

Actually scary fucks.

[Scented Nectar]

Feminism may have freed women like Abbie Smith and Scented Nectar from traditional roles, but I am at this point dubious that it has been a net value for women and society overall, given the number of survey results that apparently show that women in general are unhappier than men, and the unhappiest are:

Female
42 years old
Unmarried
Have a household income under $100,000
Work in a professional position (i.e., as a doctor or a lawyer).

Which leads me to suspect that most women would be happier in more traditional roles, rather than the current ones that society appears bent of forcing them into.

I wonder if many of those women are unhappy due to having to double-job it. What I mean is, how many of those women in that group also have kids to take care of whenever they're not at their day job. That would suck. Almost no recreational or hobby time.

Also, I think a lot of women still wish for some sort of storybook for-ever-and-ever romance, unrealistically perfect, and they never attain that. I've always been different though. While I can certainly enjoy an initial infatuation period with someone, I'm very aware that such a feeling is temporary, and after that one is left with whatever's left, sometimes that's a nice long term friendship, with or without further sex, or sometime there's nothing really left and one goes their own way. It varies, but I think unhappy women of that age and marital status are the types that feel like they failed if they don't have a happy little family by then.

I've never really wanted to breed or commit to a forever monogamy promise, so I've never become one of those unhappy, failed, harlequin-romance-heads. I also would hate having to take care of other people who live with me. Children need a lot of caretaking, and in many traditional marriages, the woman's job is at home, 24 hrs a day, and it involves caretaking of one's spouse too. Cooking, cleaning, and overseeing kids as one's life - ugh! Sorry, but I don't dream of such things, even though many women actually do. You know those MGTOW? Well, I'm a WGTOW. :)

[Scented Nectar]

Men tend to think first and emote later (if at all).
Women tend to emote first and think later (if at all).

I don't know why you assume that. I would have put it like this:
Non-ideologues (actual skeptics) tend to think first and emote later (if at all).
Ideologues, such as the Fftb/skepchicks, tend to emote first and think later (if at all)

There absolutely is a patriarchy. There absolutely is male privilege. There absolutely is rape culture.

Almost none of that left in modern secular countries where laws ensure sexual equality and being a rapist is a crime. However, if you look at theocratically run countries, like most islamic states, the law has all the REAL patriarchal setup that is in their religious books. Sexual INequality is the law, with women being owned and forced to marry, etc. And in those places, it's easy to see that they are REAL rape cultures, since rapists are not blamed for their actions. Instead, their victims are blamed and also killed for it. Now, THAT'S a rape culture. Not what we have in secular modern countries.

[Scented Nectar]

On the other hand you couldn't make me stay home to look after a kid if you paid me...

Me too. I would be certifiably insane before the first day was finished.

[Tigzy]

Re: http://thunderf00tdotorg.wordpress.com/ ... -a-pariah/

Well fuck my old boots! Thunderf00t has taken another massive shit on FTB here. Have to confess, an initial reading of Natalie's, Zinnia's and Natalie's posts on the matter didn't seem too way out there. Just because Tf00t got doxxed by Dawahfilms doesn't make him immune from hypocrisy or major-league assholery. The three aggrievances they brought up were, 1: violation of confidential emails 2: the possibility of doxxing Natalie Reed's real name, and 3: that he possibly hacked his way into the mailing list after being removed from it.

Tf00t's latest post cleared things up - mostly. He makes a good point point that other FTBer's - Justin Griffiths and PZ Myers - were able to publicly disclose backchannel emails with no comeback, which distinctly dilutes the force of the 'breach of confidentiality' argument from the FTB crowd. As regards the doc dropping - he made it clear he's against the practice, and pointed out that all the headers and footers info (which is what would have contained Natalie Reed's real name - the only personal info that could potentially have some meatspace comeback, as far as I can see) was removed from those snippets he disclosed to Michael Payton. I honestly think Tf00t can be trusted on this point - what use would the info be to Payton anyway? Yes, Tf00t could indeed be an asshole of such extent that he's gleefully dropping personal email addys all over the creepier corners of the web; but likewise, I think he's intelligent enough - even if not so fair-minded - that he'd look a major wanker if he indulged in something he took Dawahfilms to such task for. Perhaps such a major wanker as to be considered completely untrustworthy, even by his Youtube fanbase.

In any case, what he reveals doesn't make FTB look good at all. I mean, Jesus - yeah, the parallels with Scientology 'fair game' tactics are about as obvious as Greg Laden being a total shithead. And all this in response to a vaguely dismissive tweet by Payton! Jesus! It's weird - watching the antics of the FTB crowd is a lot like seeing 2G1C for the first time - just when you think it can't possibly get any more appalling, it gets...more appalling. To be honest, I'm wondering just how bad the next issue that crops up is gonna be.

Anyways, as for point 3, and probably the most serious one: that Tf00t might have hacked his way back into the emailing list. Either that, or they forgot to remove him from the list. If it's the former, then that's a shitty, shitty thing to do, and very possibly illegal. If the latter...well, a not too dissimilar incident involving a certain pudgy pink princess at the JREF forums brought no comeback, nor indeed much in the way of condemnation. In fact, her career has progressed in leaps and bounds ever since, despite not being possessed of any discernible talent whatsoever.

Alas, Tf00t doesn't address how he got access to Brayton's emails concerning Payton after he was removed as a blogger at FTB - so as to whether it was down to an oversight or some hacking on Tf00t's part remains to be seen.

[rayshul]

On the other hand you couldn't make me stay home to look after a kid if you paid me...

Me too. I would be certifiably insane before the first day was finished.

Thinking about it, we've really only had men quit at work to be full-time dads.

[Tigzy]

Whoo-Hoo! PZ now chimes in on the latest Tf00t turd dump! http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/ ... rous-hack/

So apparently, Tf00t 'took advantage of a security exploit to hack into our private mail server; when the hole was closed, he tried multiple time to use the same exploit to get back in.' Hmmm...

If it's hacking, it sucks. If he took advantage of a security loophole...well, it sucks, yeah, but no more so that then saintly Watson exploiting her misplaced admin privileges at JREF.

After all, as PZ says:

Yes, we want to make Thunderf00t/Phil Mason a pariah in the atheist movement, and for good reason: he’s a dishonest scumbag. The nice thing for us is that he’s making it easy: Phil Mason is destroying his own reputation with his sleazy behavior. Who in their right mind would ever trust that guy with any confidence at all?

Replace 'Thunderf00t/Phil Mason' with 'Rebecca Watson' and maybe any lurking baboons might at last get where we're coming from here...

[justinvacula]

New blog post! I address Stephanie Zvan's recent blog post in which she seems to not understand basic philosophy/critical thinking skills; she appears not to know what an argument is and seems not to understand much about thought experiments. PZ fumbles, too. There's lots of confusion from these non-philosophers.

http://www.justinvacula.com/2012/08/a-p ... -zvan.html

[Tigzy]

Oops - that should have been 'Natalie's, Zinnia's and the Ashley's posts'. Sorry.

[justinvacula]

Thoughts on PZ's post:

First, I am expressing skepticism on the idea of Thunderf00t being some 1337 hax0r (or whatever). I've yet to see any data suggesting that this is true. It's been mere assertion so far from FTB ad the story usually goes. Besides, tf00t has said that much of this information has already been made available to him. I also wonder: Perhaps FTB didn't properly remove tf00t from this list? Perhaps someone sent tf00t this information? Anyway...

hold hostage personal information on pseudonymous posters who, under the promise of privacy, had discussed personal matters and job-related issues. He is a colossal hypocrite.

Held hostage?

I woke up this morning to find some reassuring email from some friends of his, who had basically staged an intervention, trying to get him to back off from his unethical behavior.

This seems to be quite problematic. Previously it was said that FTB knew of this alleged hacking a week ago. Why would this 'e-mail from tf00t's friends' pop in PZ's mailbox just today? Hmm...right after the other FTB posts on tf00t. Odd, isn't it? What, anyway, did tf00t even release?

I was told that he had listened and agreed, and piously assured everyone that he thought the goals of the freethought movement were most important, and that we should all step away from the petty divisiveness and concentrate on education, science, secularism, and politics.

Hahahahahahahahaahahaha
PZ isn't interested in that. PZ has been engaged in a great deal of creating drama, 'petty divisiveness, and outright character assassination for months now.

And then he turned around, no doubt chortling to himself, and posted another slimy, sneering, lying article about freethoughtblogs. It’s appalling.

Don't dare question Freethought Blogs! The horror!

Yes, we want to make Thunderf00t/Phil Mason a pariah in the atheist movement, and for good reason: he’s a dishonest scumbag. The nice thing for us is that he’s making it easy: Phil Mason is destroying his own reputation with his sleazy behavior. Who in their right mind would ever trust that guy with any confidence at all?

...as PZ "is destroying his own reputation with his sleazy behavior." PZ might just be that pariah pretty soon.

[Dick Strawkins]

Yes, we want to make Thunderf00t/Phil Mason a pariah in the atheist movement, and for good reason: he’s a dishonest scumbag. The nice thing for us is that he’s making it easy: Phil Mason is destroying his own reputation with his sleazy behavior. Who in their right mind would ever trust that guy with any confidence at all?

[/quote]

So a proven liar calls someone a scumbag?

As for the information revealed by Thunderf00t, does it surprise anyone in the slightest?
It's been obvious from the beginning that FTB was set up with the aim of promoting a few personalities (as far as I can recall the first members were PZ, Laden, Svan, Brayton and Physioprof) and that is about it. Their self promotion (maybe not Physioprof - I have no idea what he writes about (since he's unreadable!) in terms of blog hits and engineering themselves as 'those to invite' to skeptical conferences has been the only consistent factor since.
If he was going to go to the trouble of revealing something incriminating from the FTB backchannel then I would have hoped it would be more juicy than this.
As far as I am concerned the 'issue' here is not one side (progressive/feminist) versus another (anti-FTB), its the whole B-list 'celebrity atheist' culture. I put up with exactly this sort of pathetic personality based infighting in University politics in the 1980s and I can see the same thing happening again with this mess.
Atheism/skepticism is not advancing through society through the actions of the D-list celebrity atheists like PZ Myers and Ophelia Benson. It's advancing through the actions of unknowns who are beginning to challenge the previously unquestioned religious deference.
Myers and company want to preserve their lucrative position at all cost and think that the rest of us will go along with the blacklisting of those who oppose them in order to preserve the current conference culture.
Fuck that.
Pull the plug on the whole conference scene and see how they like it then. It won't make much of a difference to most of us but will kill the goose that lays the golden egg for the D-listers.

[windy]

If it's hacking, it sucks. If he took advantage of a security loophole...well, it sucks, yeah, but no more so that then saintly Watson exploiting her misplaced admin privileges at JREF.

But you have to admit, it's pretty bad that someone would take advantage of a security loophole to invade a "carefully controlled, closed environment".

[LMU]

Does Tf00t say anywhere where he got the emails from? Is it possible that they put him on the list when he joined FTB and just failed to take him off again? Or that someone at FTB is forwarding him this stuff? No disrespect to Thunderf00t but he really doesn't seem like a hacker.

[Tigzy]

With all the inevitably of a dismal season, Greg Laden has squeaked up on Tf00t's blog: http://thunderf00tdotorg.wordpress.com/ ... mment-5496

[Dick Strawkins]

If it's hacking, it sucks. If he took advantage of a security loophole...well, it sucks, yeah, but no more so that then saintly Watson exploiting her misplaced admin privileges at JREF.

But you have to admit, it's pretty bad that someone would take advantage of a security loophole to invade a "carefully controlled, closed environment".

windy, I think you'll find that it's only bad when someone else does it.

The other thing that this whole mess highlights is the fact that they seem to be admitting that nasty shit went on, and goes on, in the backchannel but Thunderf00ts actions in revealing this shit are oh-so-very-much worse.
Considering the fact that nefarious activities are being documented in the backchannel, and that several of the bloggers in the FTB stable are of questionable mental stability, isn't there a constant risk that one of them will fly off the handle and publish this stuff out of pure spite?
(or, as in the case of Justin Griffiths, for their own protection)
Or threaten to publish, and thus hold the whole network to ransom?
It seems, at the very least, a recipe for disaster.

[James Onen]

Two years ago: http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2010 ... ty-a-serv/

I have a very low opinion of most journalists — it’s a career in disrepute, given the sad state of media affairs, especially with the pathetic state of television news. I glanced at some of the programming going on now, and most of what I saw were mannequins arguing over whether it was right to release these documents, rather than any substantive discussion of the horrors contained within them.

Well said :clap:

[Dick Strawkins]

Does Tf00t say anywhere where he got the emails from? Is it possible that they put him on the list when he joined FTB and just failed to take him off again? Or that someone at FTB is forwarding him this stuff? No disrespect to Thunderf00t but he really doesn't seem like a hacker.

The way that various members of the FTB coven describe it, it sounds like after expelling him from FTB they forgot to exclude his account from accessing the backchannels and when they eventually realised he was doing so and restricted him he tried two more times to enter. In other words he logged in to his account a couple of times but stopped when he realized that they had finally restricted his access.
It sounds like a case of incompetence from their side.
If you are going to behave in such an underhand way towards someone then the very least you should do is make sure they can't get hold of evidence that proves that behavior.

[EveryMan]

I don't know why you assume that. I would have put it like this:
Non-ideologues (actual skeptics) tend to think first and emote later (if at all).
Ideologues, such as the Fftb/skepchicks, tend to emote first and think later (if at all)

Uh, a lifetime of dealing with women? It's also know that sex hormones affect behavior in this regard.

I'll also say education is a huge factor in this, as I've found that women with advanced degrees (in the hard or soft sciences) tend to think first. Interesting to note the SkepChicks are universally poorly educated and grad students like Abbie want nothing to do with them.

As mentioned earlier in the thread, men/women tend to gravitate to different aspects of a cultural phenomenon. For example, the paranormal. Men like taking things apart; so they do things like JREF/CSIOP. Women like experiencing/knowing, so they are more attracted to the "NewAge" experience. Keep in mind I'm way less judgmental of stuff like that (especially AltMed) and I'm a supporter of the integrative medicine approach.

Almost none of that left in modern secular countries where laws ensure sexual equality and being a rapist is a crime. However, if you look at theocratically run countries, like most islamic states, the law has all the REAL patriarchal setup that is in their religious books. Sexual INequality is the law, with women being owned and forced to marry, etc. And in those places, it's easy to see that they are REAL rape cultures, since rapists are not blamed for their actions. Instead, their victims are blamed and also killed for it. Now, THAT'S a rape culture. Not what we have in secular modern countries.

Ok, you are talking about a state-sponsored patriarchy. I'm talking more about a cultural/organic patriarchy. I.e., men tend to run things because they tend to take more risks and do more work courtesy of our friend testosterone. But complaining about this strikes me as kind of pointless. Not to mention there is plenty of female privilege (as well as a matriarchy) in America.

For me, our rape culture is the sort of institutional blindness to sexual assault as evidenced by the Penn State case. Or the 'roofie' date rape drug culture present on college campuses. These are all real problems; albeit not state sponsored ones as they will get prosecuted (obviously).

[CommanderTuvok]

The more I find out about FfTB, the more I admire Abbie Smith for being one of the few lone voices standing up to them at the onset.

These freaks are dangerous. I've always suspected the "backchannel" was used to co-ordinate attacks on people, create blacklists, promote Chinese whispers, etc.

[CommanderTuvok]

Peezus

Yes, we want to make Thunderf00t/Phil Mason a pariah in the atheist movement, and for good reason: he’s a dishonest scumbag.

This is the same guy who totes defends Osama Greg Laden and Rebecca Watson.

PZ - please fuck off.

[Tigzy]

Ed Brayton now says his bit on the Tf00t emails: http://freethoughtblogs.com/dispatches/ ... obsession/

And no, it doesn't look like Tf00t did much in the way of hacking. In fact, according to Ed, he accessed the list a mere few minutes after supposedly being removed from it.

I double checked to make sure that he had been removed from the list at that time and he was (I have email confirmation from the system at the time). I then had our site tech do some digging into the database and he discovered that Thunderfoot had used a security loophole (now fixed) to regain admission to the list only a few minutes after he was removed from it on July 1 and had been receiving all of the email traffic between everyone else from that moment forward, without our knowledge.

I think this security loophole was about as gaping as a windsock in a gale.

Ed further goes on, in typical cult baboon fashion, to say that the miscreant has psychological problems.

I think it reveals, as starkly as possible, just how deranged and unethical the man is...quite frankly, he has become obsessive to the point of derangement.

[Guest]

On the other hand you couldn't make me stay home to look after a kid if you paid me...

Me too. I would be certifiably insane before the first day was finished.

Me, if I had to push papers, dig ditches, and deal with office politics for a living, I'd go crazy. (and ftr, I already tried those things). I rather enjoy being a full time parent. It's very fulfilling for me. I am also a man.

While I'm here and on this topic I just add that a man who stays home and a wife that works is very often a great situation. Firstly, as a man, I can do things like mow the lawn, change the oil in the car, paint the interior rooms, etc, in addition to the standard house keeping and tending to children. I am also very cheap. I don't buy 100 pairs of shoes or spend thousands of dollars on cosmetics. I don't buy fancy clothes, etc. For my wife, since she's a woman, she's not really expected to stay at work late, or go in early. She's not expected to tackle physical or dangerous jobs. She also has the benefit of sort of being the last person her company would want to fire because of sexism and ageism concerns.

Just figured I say something more than, "but wait! what about me!?!?!". And a few posters sort of seemed interesed in the stay at home dad thing.

[BarnOwl]

Dick Strawkins:

Pull the plug on the whole conference scene and see how they like it then. It won't make much of a difference to most of us but will kill the goose that lays the golden egg for the D-listers.

Absolutely - if nothing else, it's environmentally unsustainable. Currently those on the conference circuit use the carbon footprint equivalent of "My shit doesn't stink." IOW, "My CO2 emissions don't count."

[debaser71]

On the other hand you couldn't make me stay home to look after a kid if you paid me...

Me too. I would be certifiably insane before the first day was finished.

Me, if I had to push papers, dig ditches, and deal with office politics for a living, I'd go crazy. (and ftr, I already tried those things). I rather enjoy being a full time parent. It's very fulfilling for me. I am also a man.

While I'm here and on this topic I just add that a man who stays home and a wife that works is very often a great situation. Firstly, as a man, I can do things like mow the lawn, change the oil in the car, paint the interior rooms, etc, in addition to the standard house keeping and tending to children. I am also very cheap. I don't buy 100 pairs of shoes or spend thousands of dollars on cosmetics. I don't buy fancy clothes, etc. For my wife, since she's a woman, she's not really expected to stay at work late, or go in early. She's not expected to tackle physical or dangerous jobs. She also has the benefit of sort of being the last person her company would want to fire because of sexism and ageism concerns.

Just figured I say something more than, "but wait! what about me!?!?!". And a few posters sort of seemed interested in the stay at home dad thing.

Darn it. Somehow my name got taken off the text box. I am debaser71. Sorry for the double post.

[CommanderTuvok]

Anyway, I'm just going to nip down the supermarket...

...I need some bags of popcorn.

:D

[Tigzy]

Blimey - yet more from PeeZee on the Thunderf00t thing: http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/ ... -disgrace/

Have to say, I noted this part:

He doesn’t have anything of actionable substance — we really haven’t been planning the overthrow of the government or any bank heists or anything nefarious — but he does have personal information about some of the contributors to FtB who want their privacy respected. That is his threat, and it’s not something we can trust him on, given that he’s already sent some emails to other people.

Okay - has Tf00t actually made any threats at all? On his own blog, he states that whatever personal information he gained came from when he was actually signed on to the list anyways - so the 'threat' of revealing personal information, as it were, would still be there even if Tf00t had indeed been unable to access the list after he was dismissed from FTB.

As far as I can see, the only potentially damaging personal info that Tf00t has access to is Natalie Reed's real name. But as Tf00t asserted on his blog, he doesn't doc drop - and unlike Ed, I'm sure Tf00t isn't quite so deranged as to be lacking sympathy for Natalie's plight in this instance, having been a victim of doxxing himself.

Finally, PZ offers some outright comedy:

Here’s the current list of blog posts protesting Thunderf00t’s inexcusable behavior. I’ll add to it as more come in, but I’m also going to be traveling a bit today, so my access may be spotty.

Ed Brayton

Ashley Miller

Greta Christina

JT Eberhard

Zinnia Jones

Stephanie Zvan

Natalie Reed

To paraphrase Mandy Rice-Davis during the Profumo affair: 'Well, they would protest that, wouldn't they!'

[CommanderTuvok]

I can see why FfTB would want to keep their ugly inner-working secret.

I reckon there is a lot of stuff we don't know about - horrible stuff.

Oh, and why am I thinking of the reveal of a dead Russian.

[Tigzy]

Hey...this...did I just read this right? Greg Laden, again on Tf00t's blog: http://thunderf00tdotorg.wordpress.com/ ... mment-5554

Someone who shall remain nameless did tell me that it looked like they were going to have to ask me to ask me to leave after all because it would not look good to have me stay and kick off Thunderfoot. Soon after that i got an email from Ed saying that after all, they had decided to accept my resignation.

:shock:

Okay, those someone's-who-shall-remain-nameless are about as much use as ferreting out what really does - or more to the point, doesn't - go on at Area 51. But Laden here is indeed asserting that his threats against Justin Griffith didn't so much matter to FTB, but rather the fact that it would have looked bad if Tf00t was dismissed and Laden was allowed to stay. The threats were of secondary importance to FTBs image!

[Notung]

After Al Stefanelli and Jason Thibeault jumped in, I think we need a list of FTBers who haven't criticised TF!

I wonder if Cristina Rad will, or Aron Ra?

[CommanderTuvok]

From Ashley Miller's site, Ashley writes:

Unfortunately, Thunderf00t’s vendetta against PZ Myers and feminism at large

Feminism at large? Rly! Talk about hyperbole.

:lol:

[Angry_Drunk]

Hey kids, long time lurker here.

I'd take any claims of "hacking" with a massive dose of sodium chloride given that these fucktards also think that pasting a fuck-ton of text into a comments box is a "Denial of Service" attack:

http://www.bynkii.com/archives/2011/07/holy_shit_1.html

[Goatboy]

Blimey - yet more from PeeZee on the Thunderf00t thing: http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/ ... -disgrace/
...
Okay - has Tf00t actually made any threats at all? On his own blog, he states that whatever personal information he gained came from when he was actually signed on to the list anyways - so the 'threat' of revealing personal information, as it were, would still be there even if Tf00t had indeed been unable to access the list after he was dismissed from FTB.

As far as I can see, the only potentially damaging personal info that Tf00t has access to is Natalie Reed's real name. But as Tf00t asserted on his blog, he doesn't doc drop - and unlike Ed, I'm sure Tf00t isn't quite so deranged as to be lacking sympathy for Natalie's plight in this instance, having been a victim of doxxing himself.

...

As far as I can tell, Tf's "threat" was to that he could release information from the backchannel which supposedly contradicted Natalie Reed’s claim that Tf was thrown off of Fftb for his <i>“extremely unprofessional conduct behind the scenes”. </i>

This apparently scared the shit out Natalie because this would somehow entail outing her private identity.

Now frankly this claim looks like complete horseshit to me.

There is no reason provided as to why Tf revealing his own behaviour on the backchannel means outing Natalie and if the emails involved do contain personal details then this should be pretty easy to redact.

Also, if the backchannel communications really were sacrosanct then Natalie shouldn’t be bringing them up in the first place. You can’t accuse someone of something like this and then throw a shit fit about them endangering your safety when they want to remonstrate with evidence (well ok, you clearly can do that, but frankly you’re ethics are dogshit if you do).

[Tigzy]

Jason Thibidoodoo explains how Tf00t 'hacked' into the mailing list: http://freethoughtblogs.com/lousycanuck ... d-and-how/

Mailman apparently never expires an invitation ticket — once you’re invited to a mailing list, the original email you receive asking for your confirmation allows you to log back in and thus rejoin if you’re ever kicked off. This produces no confirmation email to the administration under the default settings. This is probably by design, or a design oversight — Mailman was likely always intended to run mail lists that were free to join and leave, and only secondarily running private invite-only lists.

So Tf00t's 'hacking' consisted of...putting his login details back in again. :lol:

Now I admit, it was pretty damn assholish of Tf00t not to send FTB an email along the lines of, 'hey guys, I'm still on the mailing list, so you might wanna sort that out.' But I think plain old nosiness just got the better of him on this one. He certainly didn't 'hack' into the system by any stretch of the imagination. Certainly no more so than Becky-Boos 'hacked' into the JREF forums when she saw she still had admin priviledges, and deleted the accounts of some users she didn't like. For a joke, I might add. :lol:

[Goatboy]

Blimey - yet more from PeeZee on the Thunderf00t thing: http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/ ... -disgrace/
(well ok, you clearly can do that, but frankly you’re ethics are dogshit if you do).

You're / your.

[Scented Nectar]

I don't know why you assume that. I would have put it like this:
Non-ideologues (actual skeptics) tend to think first and emote later (if at all).
Ideologues, such as the Fftb/skepchicks, tend to emote first and think later (if at all)

Uh, a lifetime of dealing with women? It's also know that sex hormones affect behavior in this regard.

I'll also say education is a huge factor in this, as I've found that women with advanced degrees (in the hard or soft sciences) tend to think first. Interesting to note the SkepChicks are universally poorly educated and grad students like Abbie want nothing to do with them.

Have you only had uneducated women around you all your life, so that's why you think it's all women are this and all men are that? And, if it's education we're talking about, why do you say it's women? The hormone thing makes barely a difference, unless you have heard of something new, proving (not guessing or assuming) that female hormones (at the levels ordinarily found in a woman) make emotions overrule logical thinking, and that it doesn't happen at the levels of female hormones found in men (each sex has some of the other sex's hormones).

As mentioned earlier in the thread, men/women tend to gravitate to different aspects of a cultural phenomenon. For example, the paranormal. Men like taking things apart; so they do things like JREF/CSIOP. Women like experiencing/knowing, so they are more attracted to the "NewAge" experience. Keep in mind I'm way less judgmental of stuff like that (especially AltMed) and I'm a supporter of the integrative medicine approach.

That's too bad that you give fake med less judgement. I hope it's not due to fake med fooling mostly women, since it sounds like that's what you're pointing out to me. Fake med has killed a lot of people (of both sexes too), and it's wasted a lot of people's money. And 'integrative' just tries to give credibility to mixing placeboes in with real medicine, taking away funds that could and should go towards real, evidence-based medicine.

Almost none of that left in modern secular countries where laws ensure sexual equality and being a rapist is a crime. However, if you look at theocratically run countries, like most islamic states, the law has all the REAL patriarchal setup that is in their religious books. Sexual INequality is the law, with women being owned and forced to marry, etc. And in those places, it's easy to see that they are REAL rape cultures, since rapists are not blamed for their actions. Instead, their victims are blamed and also killed for it. Now, THAT'S a rape culture. Not what we have in secular modern countries.

Ok, you are talking about a state-sponsored patriarchy. I'm talking more about a cultural/organic patriarchy. I.e., men tend to run things because they tend to take more risks and do more work courtesy of our friend testosterone. But complaining about this strikes me as kind of pointless. Not to mention there is plenty of female privilege (as well as a matriarchy) in America.

For me, our rape culture is the sort of institutional blindness to sexual assault as evidenced by the Penn State case. Or the 'roofie' date rape drug culture present on college campuses. These are all real problems; albeit not state sponsored ones as they will get prosecuted (obviously).

No, we have an anti-rape culture, as evidenced by how universally appalled we all are that the Penn State rapes were ignored/covered up, and as evidenced by how college attendees are a NOT a pro-roofie culture. When incidences of that turn up, we as a culture, are appalled. We warn women to watch their drinks (and men should too, for both rape and robbery concerns). Rape is a crime in our culture. Rape is the exception, not the rule.

Our culture is opposite to theocratically islamic culture, where forced marriage (= rape + lifelong labour slavery) are the law. Where you are punished if you don't accept your assigned rape/slavery, and where if a woman is raped and tells (or it shows cuz she gets preggers), SHE is put in jail or given capital punishment.

[Angry_Drunk]

And so we see that in the feeble minds of the Baboon Brigade, "hacking" is defined as "Ed Brayton doesn't know how to use Mailman."

[Dilurk]

And so we see that in the feeble minds of the Baboon Brigade, "hacking" is defined as "Ed Brayton doesn't know how to use Mailman."

Unbelievable. Never ascribe to malice that which is adequately explained by incompetence.
As I maintain several Mailman lists myself, I can tell you myself from experience that Ed Brayton is an incompetent.

[EveryMan]

And so we see that in the feeble minds of the Baboon Brigade, "hacking" is defined as "Ed Brayton doesn't know how to use Mailman."

We are actually prosecuting a case at the moment involving a terminated employee that got back into a critical system via a shared account and did some real damage. Typically, whether or not this sort of thing is considered a crime is whether any sort of financial loss has occurred. So far that doesn't appear to be the case.

If anything, I would say this is more of a case of "whistle blowing" given that the FC5 are conspiring to damage someones career.

[John Greg]

Well, well, Tf00t and PZ. WHat an exciting week or two we have ahead of us. As for Natalie Whiney Screed....

Natalie writes, "The Movement doesn’t have a monopoly on skepticism. It barely practices it. Anyone can learn to value critical thought, doubt, hesitation, humility, honesty and questioning their perceptions and biases. And none of us need their permission. We don’t need DJ Grothe or Richard Dawkins or Justin Fucking Vacula’s seals of approval to do any of this."

I love that.

Some of the things that Natalie Whiney Screed never, ever practices are:

"... critical thought, doubt, hesitation, humility, honesty and questioning their perceptions and biases."

She's one of the most biased, hypocritical, non-critical thinking of the baboons. And wordy!?! Lord aw mighty.

[Tigzy]

Well, Ophelia's duly put her two-pennorth in on the latest Tf00t/FfTB shenanigans. I won't bother linking, as the resultant void is pretty much equivalent to what she has actually written.

[sacha]

Re: alcohol abuse. I've noted that of the three confirmed harassment incidents, two involved alcohol and the other was a false charge. And Boratina hinted to another involving booze this year. Sorry to tip your sacred cow, but this is an issue.

What is amusing is that I barely drink alcohol. A glass or two of wine a week, if at all. Not my sacred cow, your obsession.

I also tended bar for 10 years, so I've seen it all. You want prohibition?

Re: swearing. Now that you mention it, I personally choose not to use "loaded words" (n-word, c-word) as they tend to provoke an irrational response amongst the feeble-minded.

That is what is so very amusing, Merkins and their reaction to swearing. If they want to clutch their pearls at a "bad word", it's not my problem. The reaction stems from religion.

again:

"Profanity provides catharsis, helping one cope during intolerable periods of inner conflict, repression and readjustment. It is considered immoral due to the emphasis on inhibition and repression, and the religious connection between the sacred and the profane."

http://psycnet.apa.org/journals/rev/8/2/113/